Relationship?

[JK Walz]

What is the relationship between kung fu (wing chun) and the Four Nobles Thuths? The Eightfold Path?

JK

[Armin]

Hi JK,

sorry, what ar 'thuths'? Didn't find that one in my dictionary (stupid German I am).


Armin.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi JK,

sorry, what ar 'thuths'? Didn't find that one in my dictionary (stupid German I am).


Armin.


Ha! Or my inability to spell check! It should read "Truths".

Thanks,

JK

[Armin]

Hi JK,

I already thought, I had to buy a new dictionary! :D

As someone who is quite new to such topics, what are these four truths and what is the eightfold path?

(Ok, you are right, I could read that somewhere else, just give me a hint!)


Armin.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Armin
As someone who is quite new to such topics, what are these four truths and what is the eightfold path?


The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold path are central to all Buddhist philosophy and religion regardless of lineage, sect, path, or school. These are the basic teachings of the Buddha- realization the Four Noble Truths is the realization that the Buddha came to while sitting beneath the Boddhi Tree:

1. There is Suffering
2. There is a cause of Suffering- Attachment
3. There is an end to Suffering
4. The path to ending Suffering is the Eightfold Path

Many many thousands of pages have been written on the Four Truths so I’ll try to summarize my current understanding.

The first truth simply identifies the fact that we all experience suffering in our lives in one fashion or another. This suffering can be seen as physical, emotional, or psychological. Life is up and down and we are constantly fighting to live life more “up” than “down”. This is fight is suffering.

The second truth identifies the reason for suffering- Attachment. We are attached to a myriad of things. These things can be physical like cars, boats, houses, watches, new computers, nice clothes, money…; our pursuit of these things is suffering. We can be attached to ideas like God, justice, right and wrong, love, hate, power, lineage…; our identification with these things is suffering. The number of attachments are limitless. Anytime you find yourself preferring one thing over another you are experiencing an attachment. The pursuit or desire of the attachments are what causes suffering.

The third truth is the “good news”. Simply put, there is a path away from or out of this suffering.

The fourth truth is that the path mentioned in the third truth, the way out of suffering, is to follow the Eightfold Path. This path is the way a Buddhist will live his or her life to end their own suffering as well as the suffering of others.

Here is the Eightfold Path:

1. Right View- To understand the Four Truths, understand karma, and to see the world as impermanent
2. Right Intention- To commit yourself to a moral and ethical life.
3. Right Speech- To not speak in a manner that will cause suffering. Not speaking ill of others, not talking about people behind their backs, no idle gossip. I think this also means written language as well- internet, books, magazines, letters…etc. I don’t think this prohibits you from defending yourself (although I think others might disagree).
4. Right Action- I think this is were the Five Precepts come from. This is sort of the core of the way you should live your life in order to not cause suffering in others. The Precepts are:
1. Do not kill (some take this to include animals)
2. Do not steal (anything, including intellectual property)
3. Do not lie (little white lies might be acceptable- i.e. not disclosing a surprise party if the birthday girl asks. Even lying to protect your “ego” = not cool)
4. Refrain from sexual misconduct (this one is obvious)
5. Refrain from intoxicants (no drinking, no drugs. Violation of this precept often leads to the violation of the first four.)
5. Right Livelihood- Don’t have a job that causes suffering. Don’t sell intoxicants, do deal in weapons, don’t sell animals, don’t be involved in butchering, don’t be involved in prostitution…etc.
6. Right Effort- I think this goes along with Right Intent. You have to have the right effort in order to make any of the other parts of the path work. In other words, you can think about it all day but until you actually do it (do lie, don’t steal, don’t sell weapons) you aren’t really on the path.
7. Right Mindfulness- It think this is talking about being aware of your actions, attitudes, and intentions at all times. I think it is also saying that you should not dwell in the past or worry about the future. You should be more concerned about living correctly in the present. If you live correctly in the present then the future should take care of itself. You need to be mindful of desires, anger, and potential attachments as the arise in order to guard against them.
8. Right Concentration- With this you should try to be focused on what is at hand. In other words don’t let your mind wander.

Sorry that was so long but I guess it is necessary to answer my original. Well, that’s my understanding of the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path. I am sure it will change and mature in time but that is where I am at right now.

My original question was- How do the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path relate to kung fu (to our wing chun in particular)? If Ch’an is integral to wing chun, and the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are integral to Ch’an (Buddhism), is there a direct relationship between the Truths/Eightfold Path and kung fu? If so, in your opinion, what is/are the details of the relationship?

JK

[Armin]

Hi JK,

you answer your own quesiton by your last post ;) .

Look:

1. Right View - understand the principles and the concepts

2. Right Intention - why are you training Ving Tsun? to learn how to kill or to learn how to defend?

3. Right Speech - being polite is always good.

4. Right Action - don't overreact in a figth as well as in daily life.

5. Right Livelihood - keep your mind and body healthy, e. g. by going your exercises

6. Right Effort - keep training!

7. Right Mindfulness - be aware of the health of your partner(s) and what you want to achieve with the exercises you do.

8. Right Concentration - focus on what you are supposed to learn, not what you guess you will be learning in the future.

Well, that's the good thing with the eigthfold path - it can be used to describe everything. Even the four truths can be 'translated':

1. There is danger for your person, life, others.

2. There is a cause for this danger - others. (Ok, sorry, this one sounds silly; how about: staying in dangerous situations?)

3. Just leave the place (or if not: fight and then leave)

4. As you said.

This is just a 'first shot' as an first idea. And I'm not sure, if you necessarlily have to transfer the ideas. Well, i have to think a little more about it, and if there's something new, I'll let you know!


Greetings,

Armin.

[Savi]

Originally posted by JK Walz

My original question was- How do the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path relate to kung fu (to our wing chun in particular)? If Ch’an is integral to wing chun, and the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path are integral to Ch’an (Buddhism), is there a direct relationship between the Truths/Eightfold Path and kung fu? If so, in your opinion, what is/are the details of the relationship?The Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold path are central to all Buddhist philosophy and religion regardless of lineage, sect, path, or school. These are the basic teachings of the Buddha- realization the Four Noble Truths is the realization that the Buddha came to while sitting beneath the Boddhi Tree:

1. There is Suffering
2. There is a cause of Suffering- Attachment
3. There is an end to Suffering
4. The path to ending Suffering is the Eightfold PathI would first have to ask myself, what does kung fu mean to me? Then I would ask myself how the 4 Truths are connected with kung fu, if at all.

For me, kung fu is about knowing yourself; as a warrior, as a worker, as you are in life; how to be righteous by balancing the many aspects of our character, so that we may travel our lifetime in an awakened state.

For me, the 4 Truths have nothing to do with kung fu - and have everything to do with kung fu. I say this because these truths exist regardless if I do not practice "kung fu" (as in martial art/science). That's why they are Truths; they are universal. You can apply these truths in anything that involve you.

[Savi]

Originally posted by JK Walz
Here is the Eightfold Path:

1. Right View- To understand the Four Truths, understand karma, and to see the world as impermanentIn kung fu, see things for what they are, understand the nature of all things. By doing so, we may act with the correct responses when engaging and dealing with hostility. To misread the reality could spell disaster.
2. Right Intention- To commit yourself to a moral and ethical life.In kung fu, recognize everything is connected by cause and effect. To strive for balance and harmony would seem inherent with valuing existence. If you act out towards the hostile person without the correct focus, the control will not be there... only uncertainty.
3. Right Speech- To not speak in a manner that will cause suffering. Not speaking ill of others, not talking about people behind their backs, no idle gossip. I think this also means written language as well- internet, books, magazines, letters…etc. I don’t think this prohibits you from defending yourself (although I think others might disagree).The character "Praise" (Wing as in Wing Chun) also points to correct speech. To speak of concept and principle is to point to truths. From teaching (nurturing) to speaking (conversation) to reflecting (introspection), correct speech is a reflection of reality, clear and balanced. Our perceptions may distort what we receive, but for the most part we tend to search for clarity. Ethics may drive your kung fu.
4. Right Action- I think this is were the Five Precepts come from. This is sort of the core of the way you should live your life in order to not cause suffering in others. The Precepts are:
1. Do not kill (some take this to include animals)
2. Do not steal (anything, including intellectual property)
3. Do not lie (little white lies might be acceptable- i.e. not disclosing a surprise party if the birthday girl asks. Even lying to protect your “ego” = not cool)
4. Refrain from sexual misconduct (this one is obvious)
5. Refrain from intoxicants (no drinking, no drugs. Violation of this precept often leads to the violation of the first four.) Let me point to a post by Sihing Levi:

Five Precepts (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=5286#post5286)

I personally do not see how martial arts can help us to value these things if we don't in the first place, unless we dive into the philosophical aspect of martial arts and root out ego.

I think that understanding Karma (Right view) is a big requisite in order to abide by these Precepts.

These things could lead into energy perhaps, as in Hei Gung training. Mind and Body are effected by energy. By violating these Precepts, Mind and Body may move out of harmony with physical manifestations in stress, thus impacting the balance of energy flow within you.

Just hypothesizing here, I could be way off target... but personally, I know this is how my body responds when I feel guilt, sadness, frustration, anger and any emotion that carries a negative charge to it.
5. Right Livelihood- Don’t have a job that causes suffering. Don’t sell intoxicants, do deal in weapons, don’t sell animals, don’t be involved in butchering, don’t be involved in prostitution…etc.I think the key word here is "Right", as in "Yi" like Hung Fa Yi. Thinking about this in the context of fighting is a trip...

For some reason, I am equating "Yi" with knowing when to hit, and when not to hit. It makes sense in my mind, but it is still too near for me to explain.
6. Right Effort- I think this goes along with Right Intent. You have to have the right effort in order to make any of the other parts of the path work. In other words, you can think about it all day but until you actually do it (do lie, don’t steal, don’t sell weapons) you aren’t really on the path.Proper application of anything is the only way to make things function correctly. Knowing yourself is also about knowing how to apply yourself in real situations. If you don't walk your talk, you will never know what you are talking about.
7. Right Mindfulness- It think this is talking about being aware of your actions, attitudes, and intentions at all times. I think it is also saying that you should not dwell in the past or worry about the future. You should be more concerned about living correctly in the present. If you live correctly in the present then the future should take care of itself. You need to be mindful of desires, anger, and potential attachments as the arise in order to guard against them.How can this be applied in kung fu? As you point out, we focus on here and now. This is Wing Chun. The ultimate moment in time is when everything exists at that one moment - like a simultaneous offense and defense. That is a reflection of someone focusing on here and now. I think to have the right mindfulness is to be aware of Saam Mo Kiu.
8. Right Concentration- With this you should try to be focused on what is at hand. In other words don’t let your mind wander. Does Concentration equate to Focus? Without correct focus, what will happen to you in fighting?


Then again, after writing this I realize I am responding with your words as the point of reference.

[Armin]

Hi!

Am I guessing right, that there's no possibility of 'academically understanding' these things? You have to feel it, it has to becom you nature.


Armin.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi!

Am I guessing right, that there's no possibility of 'academically understanding' these things? You have to feel it, it has to becom you nature.


Armin. JK mentioned this, and I like how he phrased it: Originally posted by JK Walz
In other words, you can think about it all day but until you actually do it (do lie, don’t steal, don’t sell weapons) you aren’t really on the path.Words only have meaning when we experience it.