Wing Chun and Buddhism

[passing_through]

Found this on KFO last night... and grabbed it just in case the thread gets deleted.

These two posts are from Hendrik:

#1

Originally Posted by canglong
Some of the facts are even more interesting such as certain terms unique to and derived from Buddhism and Southern Shaolin being inherent in many southern sytems. Tien Yan Dei term, concept and wisdom are present in both Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi, the term, concept and wisdom of Saam Mo Kiu is unquely buddhist and southern shaolin in origin as are the phrases and concepts behind sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn and ngh douh luk mun fa kihn kwan.


The following is my view as a Buddhist and a WCner. I would like to respect whoever create the term since it is very creative. However, i would like also to point out that we need to get the Buddhism or Daoism or Chinese Folk believe stuffs straight. Otherwise, a, we can get stuck and not be able to go further in our study. b, the next generation or scholar will think WCners are not clear for what there are doing.

1, Tien Yan Dei term is a Chinese Cultural term which were used everywhere.

2, Saam Mo Kiu obviously has its right itself and respected, however this is not a known term existed in any known core Buddhist writting. Until any one can find that term in Buddhist writting of the past, (certainly, one needs to view this term with respect for whoever invented this term. it is still some creative work which can be appreciate. ) However, there is no based found which Buddhism support this term.

3, sayings such as saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn or three points, a single line, stable the Spirit . doesnt fit into buddhist origin .

The reason:

A, Buddhist dont talk about stable Spirit or Shen or Shan in cantonese. Chan, Zen buddhism go straight to the AWARENESS. As Shan or Shen or Spirit is level lower/narrower then AWARENESS.

B, AWARENESS do not need to use points or Lines to stable it becuase AWARENESS is beyond Points/Lines and even thought or Niem or Yee.

Just drop the yee and Niem and AWARENESS always ist there. One doesnt go out to develop something or get to somewhere. AWARENESS is always there. or in a narrower analogus sense, one doesnt go out to live in NOW. drop all the thoughts, speculation, intention...... NOw is always here.

So, whoever create this saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn doesnt know Buddhism in depth. Doesnt Know Chan. because s/he simply doesnt understand Buddhism.

Saying that, this person might be good in martial art, some Daoist school stuffs. that might be possible. However, This term doesnt fit into Buddhism. That is for sure and very certain.

Lets look at the Diamond sutra which is the sutra of Chan.

http://www.hm.tyg.jp/~acmuller/bud-...utra.html#div-7

10. Arousing the pure aspiration without abiding
The Buddha said to Subhûti, "What do you think? When the tathâgata studied under Dîpaṃkara Buddha, did he gain any attainment in the dharma?"

"World Honored One, when the Tathâgata studied under Dîpaṃkara Buddha, there was, in reality, nothing that he attained in the dharma."

"Subhûti, what do you think? Does the Buddha create sublime Buddha-lands?"

"No, he does not, World Honored One. And why not? Sublime Buddha-lands are not sublime. Therefore they care called sublime."

"And so, Subhûti, the bodhisattvas and mahasattvas should give rise to the pure aspiration in this way: they should not give rise to the aspiration while abiding in form. They should not give rise to the aspiration while abiding in sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts. They should give rise to the aspiration while not abiding in anything."

NO ABIDING IN FORM...Concepts ect is the core key. Points, line, Shan all are form. Zen abiding to none of them is the teaching of the buddha. asking one to abiding on points, lines, gates to stable/settle something or transform something is about abiding or dwell in a certain states. and states are impermenent. one cannnot step on the same water flow twice. one cannot life the same time twice. Thus, it cannot be Chan. chan dont abiding. chan dont dwell in abiding in sound, odor, taste, touch, or concepts.


In addition,

An analogy, abiding in points and line and form are great in an Atomic molecu structure static level, but it is inadequate in the Sub Atomic level or even in the Wave model level. One needs a wave level model to understand what happen deeper then the sub atomic level.

If those tri-angle, structure shape... etc are a molecular atomic level, then the 6 directional force vectors is equivelent to the sub-atomic level since the model deal with how the eloctrons/ protons and how it spin. and Awareness is the wave level because it deal with NO Abinding. ONly at the No Abinding level one can implement the flex flow similar to water.

In the sub-atomic level one will know how to fajing. if one using the molecular shape level trying to understand or predict the fajing or keng geng which is beyond static shape. that cannot be done properly because one needs another level deep down to understand and be able to handle the details.

Thus, 3 level of depth might be needed to have a holistic view to start a kung fu training. Thus, WCK needs all 3 level of models or its equivalent tool to communicate what is within the art.

Thus, from the stanza, we can see that the creator of the stanza is at the molecular atomic level which s/he is using the points and lines trying to settle the deeper level subject which it is not likely can be done. IE: using molecular atomic understanding trying to manuval something in the sub-atomic level without an understanding in electrons spin...etc Not to mention the Wave model level.

So, with this type of analisys how far the stanza can lead one can be predicted. the boundary condition of the stanza is known. this stanza is a great tools for the molecular atomic level. but doesnt do a good job or very usefull in the sub atomic level or another level down which is the level of Wave or Awareness. Shen or Shan or spirit doesnt reach that deep into the Awareness level.

5, ngh douh luk mun fa kihn kwan is even further confirm the Non Buddhist Core of The previous statement.

I sincerely hope we can look at the merit of the person who trying to fit the 3 points, the lines, the door... into a stanzas so people can remember the important points while practicing martial arts eventhought it has to has more depth in oder to link to Buddhism or advance martial art.

I sincerely hope this post is not taken as an attack but a close look at what is what. For everythings has two sides. Looking at it as it is is about AWARENESS but taking anyone of the side as the TRUTH is abiding in Form. IMHHHHHHO

peace
and have a nice day.

Last edited by Hendrik : June 19, 2005 at 10:42 PM.

===

#2


Originally Posted by canglong
The center line or one line is the dan tien for wing chun and buddhist. Wing Chun has long been regarded as a method to enhance the mind body and spirit.


Buddhism doesnt talk about Dan tien. Chan talks about not abinding. Non Dwelling. Non Line, Non point, Non structure.

Wing Chun has long been regarded as a method to enhance the mind body and spirit is a not good enough to link it to Buddhism. Buddhism doesnt talk about spirit but AWARENESS. or atleast in china shen or spirit cannot be the core of buddism.

and
Regareded as a method has to present the technology to explain HOw to do it.

There are at least 3 levels of technology there needs to be address. Making some Chinese Stanzas up are respectable for the creativity however as soon as it doesnt address the technology of the 3 levels or more then it doesnt mean much at all. but hollow. There is where the every body's intepretation deal comes in, there is also where the everyone's his-stories come in. Similar to the blind men who is trying to describe an elephant.

a true description of an art or a claim must have in details the big and details of the technology for what ever levels it consist. Otherwise it is a wishfull thinking.

similar to a doctor taking care of a patient, s/he must has a clear perscription up to the level the doctor capable of. and not leave intepretation for the patients.

be it in engineering to healing to martial art,,, it is a causal system world and one needs to be very clear on what is going on.

This is what I see WC as a general needs to be carefully addressing in the coming future. The name of the lineage, the name of the founder of the lineage, the name of the sifu cannot replace a well address technological details.

Last edited by Hendrik : Today at 12:51 AM.

[passing_through]

For myself, and I'll be posting more to this thread later as a record of comments...

Everything Hendrik posted above can be summed up in the following:

For everythings has two sides. Looking at it as it is is about AWARENESS but taking anyone of the side as the TRUTH is abiding in Form.

Stating that everything has two sides shows that he's taking a side. He doesn't meet is own standards of evidence, which - using his own words - is: ... oh, wait... there is no standard of evidence because he's constantly shifting the standard.

Based on these two posts, it looks like Awareness is the key to Hendrik's worldview. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be aware of different cultures using different words - and sometimes the same words - differently.

Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu is a concept that directly relates to Awareness - Wandering, Aware or Focused. Now, these are English terms to explain a concept originally expressed in Chinese. Are the English words the exact same in context, culture, and meaning as the Chinese? Not likely. However, the English words to point in a direction.

This is something to bear in mind for research into Shaolin, martial arts and Buddhism... words point in a direction. Were the Chinese terms exactly the same in context, culture, connotation, and meaning as the original Pali language - the language into which the Buddhist Sutras were first written.

Chinese culture is a mix of Confucian, Buddhist, and Daoist ideas, metaphysics, terms and more. The Shaolin Temple was also a mix of many different influences - including different forms of Buddhsim, military thinking, and Taoism.

So, what's more important - language or experience? Is this an either/or question or a both/and question? I've always been more of a both/and type of person myself.

Looking at what Hendrik wrote about waves and such, I get what he's trying to say but he's still playing with words. Everything he wrote about particles and waves does not exist in the Buddhist sutras so he's WRONG (by his definitions in his own posts) to even try to use them.

He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and putting HIS understanding, HIS requirements, and HIS "proofs" against it. This is called a Straw Man argument. He's attacking something that's not really our point of view. I get a lot of what he's saying but I also see where he's missing the boat.

As for things having to be in the Buddhist Sutras in order to be um.. valid is the word I guess... by way of analogy, look at the "footprints in the sand" poem about God carrying the dreamer (I'll find it and post it later). There's nothing in the Bible about God carrying anyone but the poem is in line with the spirit and theme of the Christian message. So, it is a "traditional, authentic, true, original" Christian message? *shrug* It's splitting hairs.

[Hungman]

Looking at what Hendrik wrote about waves and such, I get what he's trying to say but he's still playing with words. Everything he wrote about particles and waves does not exist in the Buddhist sutras so he's WRONG (by his definitions in his own posts) to even try to use them.

He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and putting HIS understanding, HIS requirements, and HIS "proofs" against it. This is called a Straw Man argument. He's attacking something that's not really our point of view. I get a lot of what he's saying but I also see where he's missing the boat.



Hendrik you seem to have a knack for dwelling on the surface of things in your arguments against things but always request people look deeply into matters that you are a proponent of.


I admire your tenacity, but I feel your quest for a straight answer is doomed...


About this charecter Hendrik...

Ignorance is his excuse :rolleyes:

[Hungman]

The history of Chinese Buddhist martial arts is directly related to the earlier martial arts formulated and practiced by Buddhists in ancient India. According to the Chinese, Chinese martial arts have three major divisions. These divisions are Buddhist, Taoist, and Vermilion. The Vermilion is Preying Mantis. The Taoist is Wudang, and the Buddhist is Siu Lum (Shaolin). In China there is a saying "all martial arts come from Siu Lum." This implies that the martial arts that came from India through Siu Lum were extremely deep in design and powerful. All other martial arts developed in and exported from China were derivatives or permutations of the Siu Lum arts.

http://www.fuhok.org/fuhok/page3.html

[mario bava]

Hello There

In Hendrick's post, I have seen that he has stated the following:

"So, whoever create this saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn doesnt know Buddhism in depth. Doesnt Know Chan. because s/he simply doesnt understand Buddhism."

Now, in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, this Kuen Kuit refers to how practitioner's must know their physical boundaries. This is indeed a truly Buddhist concept - I am aware that the Buddha, after 49 years of life, finally gained enlightenment, but within this enlightenment, the Buddha came to the realisation that what he now considered to be truth only applied to this universe and that his now enlightened truth may not apply to another universe. In other words, he understood the possible boundaries of this truth. Just as the Kuen Kuit of Hung Fa Yi understands the physical boundaries of truth in combat. This is, as Cang Long originally stated, derived from Buddhism, no doubt.

I feel that to suggest that the Hung Fa Yi Kuen Kuit do not have Buddhist origins is just a misinformed statement, at the very keast. Perhaps a little more knowledge of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun would light your way in making judgements, Hendrik.

Cheerio, Gary.

[Cang Long]

Stating that everything has two sides shows that he's taking a side. He doesn't meet is own standards of evidence, which - using his own words - is: ... oh, wait... there is no standard of evidence because he's constantly shifting the standard Jeremy,
I couldn't agree more.
Hendrik's views are neither complete nor based on reality. He is so argumentative that he pushes the limits of buddhism to the same point of his understanding which seems to be very limited indeed. His use of the term buddism never encompasses philosphy, religion, Cha'n or Southern Shaolin which must be clarified when discussing some of the different topics he labels as buddhism in general.

He has no concept of the knowledge meaning or science incoporated in the phrase saam dim yat sin ding yun san. That is a reflection of his knowledge or lack there of not only buddhism but Wing Chun Kuen as well.Now, in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, this Kuen Kuit refers to how practitioner's must know their physical boundaries. This is indeed a truly Buddhist concept Gary,
When you see with not only your eyes but your heart and mind then truly you see what is real.

[Hungman]

Hendrik's views are neither complete nor based on reality. He is so argumentative that he pushes the limits of buddhism to the same point of his understanding which seems to be very limited indeed.


Normally, we limit the meaning of perceptions. Food reminds us of eating; dirt reminds us to clean the house; snow reminds us that we have to clean off the car to get to work; HENDRIK reminds us of masta poo poo.:rolleyes:

[Op108wc]

Having lived through the disaster, however, wasn't sufficient for the temperamental Hendrik. At the height of his fame, Hendrik had said this...

"Good bye to the forum I would like to say good bye from this forum to lots of friends here. Thanks for the fun. I would like to say good bye to Rene, Robert, Andreas, Ernie, Pual, KJ, Matrix, Planet Wing Chun , Joy, David in Sandiago, DZu... BoB, Jim..YYLEE.. Phil... so here on thier names not get drop ... I would like to say good bye to those who hates me deep in their guts that now you have peace. it is very suffocate to choking each others. Not Zen at all. Bye bye peace hendrik" -- from KFO



This is indeed a truly Buddhist concept - I am aware that the Buddha, after 49 years of life, finally gained enlightenment, but within this enlightenment, the Buddha came to the realisation that what he now considered to be truth only applied to this universe and that his now enlightened truth may not apply to another universe. In other words, he understood the possible boundaries of this truth.

Cheerio, Gary.



Perhaps it's more like a one way mirror in a police station, with you(Hendrik Santo) on the wrong side rabbiting on about Zen Patriarchs being beheaded, children's trading card empires set up by marketroids to bleed their parents of their hard earned money, third-rate reincarnation, and the usual incomprehensible stream of consciousness veering from subject to subject like a drunken man running a gauntlet. We, the detectives(other WC/WT/VT families) on the other side, are saying, "this guy's(Hendrik Santo) too much of a lunatic to be charged with anything, but we need to keep him off the streets. We'll have to send him to the nut farm."-- from KFO

[Cang Long]

Hendrik had said this... If hendrik said it we know there is very little truth to it and no substance. The archives bearing his many names attest to that fact. Always changing his-story, deleting were possible, misleading, puposefully ambiguous, using himself as a reference with no technical experience to support any of his claims in either wing chun or white crane.

His behavior has become so detramental of late that he has even alienated some of his supporters. He enjoys the dance around questions of who, what, where and when yet sooner or later it always comes back to why. Naturally why is hendrik's breaking point for it removes the spectre of personal opinion and why unlocks the door between skill and knowledge and only those with the ability to answer why are free to move about in that corridor clearly he is not welcome there.

[Hungman]

:cool:

[Hungman]

Hendrik aka Cloudy said this...

From WXZ to Ma Li-Dang (Ma is one generation younger then WXZ) and other chinese martial artists/healer/fighters from late 1800 to 1990. I have come to a conclusion that if the Zhen Qi is not activate. the hammer and nail is not the same with the one with Zhen Qi activate.


There is one major key in healing/Zhen Qi/ Keng Geng/ nature spontaneous response, that is Li Sing, meaning knowing and riding the nature characteristcs or following the Dao. This li Sing is Yee Ren Zhee Ran in Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. This Yee Ren Zhee Ran can befound in Emei 12 zhuang.

So, Li Sing, Yee Reen Zhee Ran, Dao, this is the core of the core, to open the door to a much broader paradigm in living, one needs to know Li Seng, Yee Reen Zhee Ran, or following/riding the Dao. Do nothing on own's one forcefull will.

This is the key, the key of transformation missed by us the modern high tech human. until we Know the Yee Ren Zhee Ran we cant do a thing but stuck at the "my speculation, this is the way I want to do it." type of practice.

Thus, healing never happen, thus, Keng Geng never happen, thus, wonderfull Maverlous fighting skill never happen but fill with "all side will claim they are the best..."

In the 13 chapter, Chen Man-Ching heals TBC with cultivate Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien. and to be able to have Zhen Qi in the Dan Dien, one has to be able to a certain degree be able to Yee Ren Zhee Ran or Li Xing. Chen is a great fighter he is using the Yee Ren Zheen Ran instead of the Man command forcefull power. the yee ren zhee ran which we dont know ( the word is know because Know is beyond understanding. know is IE seeing Rene Known who is Rene. understanding is similar to reading the wck.com thinking understanding about Rene. but that is just thinking until one really meet Rene.

In the begining,
The reason YJKYM of SLT MUST stand in 1 to 1.25 shoulder width and not clamping and no all the stucture. BECAUSE--- ONE needs to LI Xing in this posture. Zhen Qi has to be activate.

however, somehow, later, things got stuck into Application mode where all the rooting, structure....clamping... triangle.... was emphasis.

There similar to Darth Vader's SLT lost ist BODY and Zhen Qi activation and the 6 directional force vectors.......etc. But trap in a machine type of BODY with programable movements. Well, it is still fast to create a fighting fighting application. however, it no longer capable to develop its full potential.



One needs to have the AWARENESS cultivate to know how to Li Xing or Yee Ren Zhee Ran. otherwise, one is doing explaining ZEN or programing Zen or speculation Zen or Arguing Zen, or HIs-story Zen, the mind is speculating so far that is even missing the clearity of what happen in the Present NOW moments and what the body naturally telling one.


"Now, why would someone want to bring that up?" he grumbled.


Im a fairly good martial artist compared to todays standards and understand alot in regards to MA, but...

I am lost as to what you are saying cloudy.

WXZ is a person?
Who is Ma Li-Dang?
What is Keng Geng?
Zhen Qi is developing qi thru meditation?

"This li Sing is Yee Ren Zhee Ran in Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. This Yee Ren Zhee Ran can befound in Emei 12 zhuang."

Here im totally confused... Sad

I have tried to look up these things but cannot find any reasonable explinations. I want to understand what you are saying because I believe you are making very good points although I dont entirely know what you are saying!
What is it about breathing that cultivates qi?
Is the process of transformation a natural process or do the practicioners of transformation know exactly what to do to transform?

I think that FAQ question is begining to make more sense! Very Happy


"Who's speaking in there?" he asked

"About what?"

"He didn't say."

???????????

[Cang Long]

I have come to a conclusion Yes,
everything does become cloudy after such a remark.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Yes,
everything does become cloudy after such a remark.


Hendrik has a history. One question that comes up regularly is "Where does he get ideas for jokes?"


White Crane? Emie 12 something?

[Cang Long]

hendrik and his jokes are similar to the boy that cried wolf, after saying the same thing over and over again in different ways on different forums with different names he has removed all doubt that everything he says is a joke.

hendrik has proven himself to be a person of many questions and no answers, if he offers up an answer treat it as the joke it was intended.

[Hungman]

Hi there,

May I say that Hendrik also has a problem, which needs to be addressed!

"many questions and no answers"


Originally posted by Cang Long
hendrik and his jokes are similar to the boy that cried wolf, after saying the same thing over and over again in different ways on different forums with different names he has removed all doubt that everything he says is a joke.

hendrik has proven himself to be a person of many questions and no answers, if he offers up an answer treat it as the joke it was intended.



To all,

Have knowledge, or know those who do. I have a simple question for Hendrik Santo.--When is Hendrik Santo going to answer questions that are posted to him?


El


________________________________

Originally posted by Levi (KFO)

Question for WC Families

yellowpickachu/hendrik/phenix/hsanto stated on another thread that IF it were proven that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" that it would "serves as a light to the history being told by YKS, Cho, Ip Man, Koolo... That the Ancestors are not lying to us about the creation of the art"

I have a question to any practicioners out there with knowledge of their traditions:

Does the YKS family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Cho family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Ip Man family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Koolo family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Thanks in advance. I'm just trying to make sure no one is misrepresented.

-Levi
:rolleyes:

[Op108wc]

hendrik and his jokes are similar to the boy that cried wolf, after saying the same thing over and over again in different ways on different forums with different names he has removed all doubt that everything he says is a joke.


HIStory repeats itself. That's one of the things wrong with Hendrik/Yellowpicachu//phenix/hsanto/cloudy's HIStory.


hendrik has proven himself to be a person of many questions and no answers, if he offers up an answer treat it as the joke it was intended.


"Here im totally confused... Sad"

Hendrik and Cloudy go hand in hand @#$%^&*()?!?!?!?

[Cang Long]

Hendrik and Cloudy go hand in hand @#$%^&*()?!?!?!? A thousand names, a thousand topics, a thousand forums and still nothing gained it would seem as if hendrik's purpose is to cloud the issue and continously mislead in order to pass the time while on "vacation".

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
A thousand names, a thousand topics, a thousand forums and still nothing gained it would seem as if hendrik's purpose is to cloud the issue and continously mislead in order to pass the time while on "vacation".

Originally posted by Hendrik"Cloudy" ----

See, I think we want to cut down spreading the muddy confusion where one name can means lots of stuffs.
The bottom line is are we going to work to make things clear or we are contribute to it?

if we dont have different agenda, then clearify things are not difficult at all. just tell the things as it is and respect it as it is. IMHO


Who is talking here, Hendrik!?

[Cang Long]

if we dont have different agenda, then clearify things are not difficult at all. just tell the things as it is and respect it as it is. IMHO Hello El,
If only that were true. On this very site we have an awful lot of space but that is still not enough to cut and paste all the times hendrik has contradicted the above statement. Everytime he has come forth with his different agendas, all the times he himself has made things more difficult than they need be, all the times people of good will openly try to explain things as best they could to the best of their knowledge and all he had for them was disrespect. All one need do is read his post to figure out he is a do as I say not as I do personality type. Review his old post and let me know if that is not the case.

[Op108wc]

Everytime he has come forth with his different agendas, all the times he himself has made things more difficult than they need be, all the times people of good will openly try to explain things as best they could to the best of their knowledge and all he had for them was disrespect. All one need do is read his post to figure out he is a do as I say not as I do personality type. Review his old post and let me know if that is not the case.


Hello Tony,

Well said. Hendrik/Yellowpicachu "Cloudy"... his life gets as complicated as a comedy as it goes on -- "See, I think we want to cut down spreading the muddy confusion where one name can means lots of stuffs."

[Cang Long]

originally posted by cloudy/hendrik
BTW, Rene, Tan Sau Ng, what did he contribute for the technical creation of WCK? since WCK is not the Opera. Why is his name in the family trees? This is a clear cut case of agenda, if hendrik doesn't know the answer to his own question he disqualifies himself from the discussion if he knows the answer but ask the question it could only be to cloud the issue with his own misconceptions of Emie.

Having a discussion with hendrik is like removing the trees to better see the forrest. When you lose the ability to empty your cup you will enivitably mislead yourself into believing you know it all when all you really know is the illusion of an empty cup.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
This is a clear cut case of agenda, if hendrik doesn't know the answer to his own question he disqualifies himself from the discussion if he knows the answer but ask the question it could only be to cloud the issue with his own misconceptions of Emie.


The trouble with Hendrik is that he lacks the power of conversation but not the power of speech.


Originally posted by Ironfist
Im a fairly good martial artist compared to todays standards and understand alot in regards to MA, but...

I am lost as to what you are saying cloudy.

WXZ is a person?
Who is Ma Li-Dang?
What is Keng Geng?
Zhen Qi is developing qi thru meditation?

"This li Sing is Yee Ren Zhee Ran in Yik Kam's SLT kuen kuit. This Yee Ren Zhee Ran can befound in Emei 12 zhuang."

Here im totally confused... Sad

I have tried to look up these things but cannot find any reasonable explinations. I want to understand what you are saying because I believe you are making very good points although I dont entirely know what you are saying!
What is it about breathing that cultivates qi?
Is the process of transformation a natural process or do the practicioners of transformation know exactly what to do to transform?

I think that FAQ question is begining to make more sense! Very Happy


As for Hendrik"Cloudy"
Ignorance has little virtues: without it there would be mighty little conversation.


Originally posted by Levi


Question for WC Families

yellowpickachu/hendrik/phenix/hsanto stated on another thread that IF it were proven that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" that it would "serves as a light to the history being told by YKS, Cho, Ip Man, Koolo... That the Ancestors are not lying to us about the creation of the art"

I have a question to any practicioners out there with knowledge of their traditions:

Does the YKS family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Cho family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Ip Man family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Koolo family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Thanks in advance. I'm just trying to make sure no one is misrepresented.

-Levi


If Hendrik thinks before he speaks, the other fellow gets in his joke first.


Originally posted by Cang Long
Having a discussion with hendrik is like removing the trees to better see the forrest. When you lose the ability to empty your cup you will enivitably mislead yourself into believing you know it all when all you really know is the illusion of an empty cup.


If he doesn't say anything, he won't be called on to repeat it. Conversation means being able to disagree and still continue the conversation. And Hendrik just walks away......after his !@#$%^&*?????


Originally posted on KFO
Perhaps it's more like a one way mirror in a police station, with you(Hendrik Santo) on the wrong side ..... third-rate reincarnation, and the usual incomprehensible stream of consciousness veering from subject to subject like a drunken man running a gauntlet. We, the detectives(other WC/WT/VT families) on the other side, are saying, "this guy's(Hendrik Santo) too much of a lunatic to be charged with anything, but we need to keep him off the streets. We'll have to send him to the nut farm."


As for Hendrik....HIStory is the ship carrying living memories to the future--"the nut farm"

[Hungman]

The WCK history....

In fact, Wong Wa-Bou got nothing to do with this "Yik Kam".

(Yim Wing Chun) - Wong Wa-Bou WCK -"SLT, CK, BJ"

(White Crane? Emie Boxing?) - Yik Kam WCK -"One LONG SLT"

Whenever there is interest, Hendrik also reflects back to the sadness "HIS-story". Usaually when Hendrik is delighted about something, he develops a thick skin, and he feels smug. He says to himself, "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" That is just self affirmation.


Originally posted by Cang Long
Everytime he has come forth with his different agendas, all the times he himself has made things more difficult than they need be, all the times people of good will openly try to explain things as best they could to the best of their knowledge and all he had for them was disrespect.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Hungman
The WCK history....

In fact, Wong Wa-Bou got nothing to do with this "Yik Kam".

(Yim Wing Chun) - Wong Wa-Bou WCK -"SLT, CK, BJ"

(White Crane? Emie Boxing?) - Yik Kam WCK -"One LONG SLT"




Pete,

A man must not swallow more beliefs than he can digest. Hendrik has no basis for an argument --"WWB Wing Chun Keun (Yongchunquan) and Yik Kam (Fujian Baiheyongchunquan / Emie)". The very truths that concerns us most are only half spoken, but with attention we can grasp the whole meaning.


Elton


Originally posted by Shaolin Master (KFO)

Guangdong Yongchunquan and Fujian Baiheyongchunquan are kept quite distinct. I have been there (Yongchun county in Fujian) and to Foshan in Guangdong. There is no mistaking the nomenclature......It is even referred to separately in all official records.

[Cang Long]

Originally posted by Shaolin Master (KFO)
Guangdong Yongchunquan and Fujian Baiheyongchunquan are kept quite distinct. I have been there (Yongchun county in Fujian) and to Foshan in Guangdong. There is no mistaking the nomenclature......It is even referred to separately in all official records.
Since beginning to practice Wing Chun many questions have arisen for myself like all others that have undertaken this same practice. This seems natural and logical that with one new discovery at least one new question will reveal itself. To some the questions themselves seem to lead to elusive answers or even the unanswerable yet to others "putting their hands on the system" they discover answers to questions the did not know were inside them.

There are no shortcuts and no one person can do it for another putting hands to the system is to seek and to find anything less will lead to frustration such as the kind that follows hendrik. Congratulations to Shaolin Master and all those many other truth seekers out there putting hands to the system in an effort to truly understand.

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long, Hungman and Op108wc

Hope you are all well. I've been reading your posts, and I'vve also been reading some of Hendrik's posts on differing forums, and I have come to the conclusion that he is an eejit. I say this because:

1 - He makes various statements on various subjects, then refuses ( or is unable ) to support or back up his statements, and discontues the thread that he has started himself on most occasions
2 - He constantly makes claims about the origins of Wing Chun just so he can promote his own system and seems to suggest that all other lineage histories are made up
3 - He constantly speaks down about other Wing Chun lineages in a very disrespectful and cowardly manner, in particlular Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. I say cowardly because the man will not just come out and communicate his insults in a clear, transparent fashion - he tries to throw camoflauged insults into his statements so no-one can accuse him of anything definite

Now, on another matter, as 'cloudy' always casts doubt on other Wing Chun lineages and histories, let us examine his lineage. Yik Kam was apparently taught Wing Chun around the same time as Wong Wah Bo at the time of the Red Boats. As research has pointed out, most lineages revolve around 2 time frames - before and after the red boats. What happened at the time of the Red Boats is now being recognised as a public period where people learned Wing Chun and then subsequently differing folk passed on their systems with different interpretations and lineage. As Yik Kam learned at the same time as Wong Wah Bo, why now do both lineages look so completely different? Is it fair to surmise that perhaps Yik Kam, using his knowledge of White Crane and other systems, made a blend of these systems before passing his knowledge on, thus changing what he had originally learned? Having only one, long Siu Lim Tao, is it possible to surmise that Yik Kam only learned a portion of the Wing Chun system, unlike Wong Wah Bo who was able to pass on a complete system with all forms intact? Is it possible that this myth of Wing Chun coming from White Crane is the only way that Hendrik can explain away the lack of similarity between his lineage and the other Wing Chun lineages? These are only a few questions, but as Hendrik is a fan of birds, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Other points of interest include a genuine Chinese Martial Art researcher and historian from China, who decades ago, stated that the link between Wing Chun and White Crane was no more than a myth. Also, 'cloudy' seems to doubt that Wing Chun came from the Shoalin Temple as it doesn't resemble what he considers Shoalin Arts. Well, when Wing Chun was conceived, it was so to counter all the then current Chin Na and Animal styles that both foreign invaders and Ming soldiers were well versed in. Thus the 'new' system did not resemble the 'old' ones! Lastly, One member from another forum actually raised a good question to 'cloudy' - he asked Hendrik not to close his mind to possibilities other than his own opinion. This seems to be good advice, but may be lost in the clouds.....

Cheerio, Gary

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Hendrik "Cloudy"

The name Jee Shim is from a Story book. Who really Jee Shim is is the reason of me starting this post. We want to find out who is he or some one who is using Jee Shim name. So, we dont want to add in another pice of stories from story book.


Hendrik "Cloudy", display yourself.

Big bites for big mouths!


...and I'vve also been reading some of Hendrik's posts on differing forums, and I have come to the conclusion that he is an eejit.

All fools come to grief from lack of thought. Hendrik "Cloudy" never see even the half of things, as he does not observe his own lineage.

[duende]

Hey Mario and Op108wc...

YM never mentioned Yik Kam. YM only mention Wong Wah Bo. From all accounts I've seen, Yik Kam was a minor figure and Wong Wah Bo's junior.

I think Hendrick is correct when he says that his Cho Family WC lineage comes from White Crane. It's obvious actually.... WWB Red Boat WC and Cho Family White Crane WC are two different WC's alltogether.

Hendrick's BIG problem is that he tries to include WWB WC in his Cho Family's history.

[mario bava]

Hello Op108wc

Thanks for the quote. Cloudy seems to be constantly floating about achieving nothing and trying to pour rain on all lineages. On the whole, his behaviour seems to be non-sensical. There are many examples of this:

1 - His unending claim that Wing Chun has come from White Crane does not add up. Why? Well, Yik Kam is supposed to have learned Wing Chun at the same time as Wong Wah Bo. Many questions arise from this fact - why does his lineage not have Chum Kiu or Biu Jee, instead just one long Siu Lim Tao? Is the answer because Yik Kam and Wong Wah Bo learned from 2 different sources? Or is it that Yik Kam blended the small portion of Wing Chun he knew with his Bak Hok and Eimei boxing? Maybe cloudy could answer these...

2 - I come from Yip Man lineage, where my previous Master educated all of us on the genuine Wing Chun Masters such as Chu Shong Tin, Yip Man, Chan Wah Shun and all of the famous and genuine Wing Chun Masters of the past, but why was Yik Kam's name never mentioned in my past lineage? Why did Yip Man never speak of Yik Kam? Is it perhaps because Yik Kam never learned the entire system, and created a blend? Cloudy can question, so can we.

3 - I am aware that Cloudy doubts that Jee Shim is Weng Chun and related to Wing Chun. The proof is in the systems themsleves, with Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun providing the missing link illustrating the relationship.
( a ) Jee Shim Weng Chun contains Tien Yan Day, Kiu Sau, Butterfly Swords, Dummy and traces it's lineage back to Shoalin
( b ) Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun consists of Kiu Sau, Chi Sau, Tien Yan Day, Butterfly Swords and Dummy and traces it's lineage back to Shoalin
( c ) remaining Wing Chun lineages contain Chi Sau, Butterfly Swords, Dummy

These facts can speak for themselves, but maybe cloudy just does not want to listen. At the end of the day, let's see if perhaps cloudy can answer some of these questions and debate some of these facts.

Cheerio, Gary

[mario bava]

Hello There Duende

How are you doin? Just seen your post - I think you hit the nail on the head - there are 2 different sources involved in WWB WC and Cho White Crane WC. Hopefully Cloudy will heed your advice.

Cheerio, Gary.

[Op108wc]

It's obvious actually.... WWB Red Boat WC and Cho Family White Crane WC are two different WC's alltogether.

Hendrick's BIG problem is that he tries to include WWB WC in his Cho Family's history.


Ditto!

Yik Kam/Cho SLT is very definitely Fujian Bai He ( Fujian White Crane) + Emie Boxing, and distinctly different to WWB Red Boat Wing Chun. Fujian White Crane and Wing Chun are two different arts alltogether. It is even referred to separately in all official records in China.

[Cang Long]

Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai. There is only one place that Yik Kam comes before WWB yep you guessed it hendrik's his-story which explains why there are no books and no articles forth coming to be shot down immediately upon arrival.


Wingchunkuen.com (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=53)

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Hendrik "Cloudy"
SLT avoid the Broken Arrow and the Wide horse stance. because SLT promote a dyanmic flex flow model not the other types of model.

Thus, that is my reason, SLT is not from Jee Shim Weng Chun or HFY type of Art.


When Hendrik is talking he does not think. Yik Kam SLT (Fujian White Crane + Emie) and Wing Chun (SLT, CK, BJ) are kept quite distinct.

[Cang Long]

Op108wc,
Once again you are correct when hendrik is talking he does not think nor does he use sound reasoning. Originally posted by Hendrik "Cloudy"
SLT avoid the Broken Arrow and the Wide horse stance. because SLT promote a dyanmic flex flow model not the other types of model.

Thus, that is my reason, SLT is not from Jee Shim Weng Chun or HFY type of Art. Or in other words not having any basis of fact to rely upon he just makes up more ideas in his own mind to play with.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Op108wc,
Once again you are correct when hendrik is talking he does not think nor does he use sound reasoning. Or in other words not having any basis of fact to rely upon he just makes up more ideas in his own mind to play with.


All the posts that I read from Hendrik seem to be pointless. or insulting to other wing chun lineages. We all know the intent of his posts.

[Op108wc]

Hello Gary,

It is clear that Hendrik thrown enough stones to build a second great wall of China.

[mario bava]

Hello Op108wc

Yes, in the past, millions of stones amounted to the Great Wall of China, but cloudy's stones will only ever amount to a pile of c**p.

Cheerio, Gary.

[Cang Long]

All the posts that I read from Hendrik seem to be pointless. or insulting to other wing chun lineages. We all know the intent of his posts. Yes,
all those post under all those names just about add up to the most post the world has ever seen since the advent of electronic forums and all for the purpose of lifting up one lineage while attacking all others, it truly is amazing.

[Cang Long]

El, Mario Bava and all others,

If you notice that certain post have been deleted you are correct. At Terence's request those post referencing him have been removed. Thank you Savi. Hopefully this gesture will foster the same kind of goodwill from others towards our family as our family is always willing to extend toward others.

No part of our comments were ever proven false, libel or slander of our own accord we removed them to honor a simple request.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Hendrik

Mr. Canglong,

speaking of Closing eyes,
WCK being well know by practicing Chi Sau Blind folded and other blind folded training in AWARENESS training. if you have problem with this type of Training in WCK. Then, that only shows that you doesnt know WCK.

So, quit making comment on what you have no idea of.


Hey Canglong,

Have you ever seen Hendrik talking to himself on KFO?

No, take a look at this....

(QUOTE):"So what is to hold on to attach to motivate you to do personal attack? isnt it not ZEN or Chan to attach to "i am right otherwise I will use all the personal attack to take you down?" You can dis-agree with my view. But that doesnt mean you need to attack me personally. You can choose to reason, You can choose to express your anger due to your own reasoning based on your personal believe system."

O Hendrik! You cannot adopt politics as a profession and remain honest. Canglong only asked you a simple question, and you !@#$%^&*()......

[mario bava]

Hello There

I see now cloudy is actually telling people they don't 'know WCK' - this surely speaks for itself. Who does this man think he is?

On examination, cloudy has his own lineage to hold up and respect. His lineage has come from White Crane, no-one here will argue the facts of his lineage. But here arises problem no.1:
no1 - cloudy cannot speak for other lineages, only his own. When he directly or indirectly attacks other lineages, he is out of order and should expect attention

At times, cloudy has attacked other lineages, claiming they brand themsleves as originals. He does not seem to recognise problem no.2:
no.2 - When cloudy rubbishes all other Wing Chun lineages and the Shaolin connection, he is indirectly telling us that his lineage is the original. Hmmmm, where is the proof, cloudy? Is your word the only proof - ahh, then no thanks.

Here are a number of facts for consideration.

1 - Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and White Crane are two distinct arts
2 - Wong Wah Bo lineages contain Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee
3 - cloudy practices one long Siu Lim Tao
4 - Yip Man lineage, from which I have 7 years experience, does not credit White Crane at all in it's history. Yip Man never mentioned it, neither have any of senior students.

So, cloudy's opinion goes against Yip Man, the Chinese government and the rest of the Wong Wah Bo lineages. If you wish people to take you seriously, cloudy, then get the Chinese government to alter official records, otherwise, have some respect for other lineages.

Your Wing Chun lineage comes from White Crane, but it's the only one that does. Someone mentioned in another forum that cloudy is a 'deep' person - the only thing about him that is deep are the holes he digs for himself spouting rubbish.

Cheerio, Gary

[Cang Long]

Have you ever seen Hendrik talking to himself on KFO? All the time :)So what is to hold on to attach to motivate you to do personal attack? isnt it not ZEN or Chan to attach to "i am right otherwise I will use all the personal attack to take you down?" You can dis-agree with my view. But that doesnt mean you need to attack me personally. You can choose to reason, You can choose to express your anger due to your own reasoning based on your personal believe system. We've all heard of blind folded chi sau just not blind SLT LOL it's always a personal attack when attempting to hide from a simple question.

[Cang Long]

1 - Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and White Crane are two distinct arts
2 - Wong Wah Bo lineages contain Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee
3 - cloudy practices one long Siu Lim Tao
4 - Yip Man lineage, from which I have 7 years experience, does not credit White Crane at all in it's history. Yip Man never mentioned it, neither have any of senior students.
Mario,
Are you aware there are many members of hendriks own Cho Gar Family that disagree with his so called findings you notice you don't see any of them running around the internet supporting his claims, hmmmmm.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Levi (KFO)

Question for WC Families

yellowpickachu/hendrik/phenix/hsanto stated on another thread that IF it were proven that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" that it would "serves as a light to the history being told by YKS, Cho, Ip Man, Koolo... That the Ancestors are not lying to us about the creation of the art"

I have a question to any practicioners out there with knowledge of their traditions:

Does the YKS family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Cho family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Ip Man family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Koolo family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Thanks in advance. I'm just trying to make sure no one is misrepresented.

-Levi



**Wong Wah-Bo WCK (SLT, CK, BJ) VS Yik Kam SLT (Fukien White Crane + Emie)


O Hendrik couldn't make whipped cream out of water, and no matter how hard Hendrik flogs it, whips it, beats it, shakes it, kicks it and prods it with a sharp stick, "White Crane + Emie" his latest Ooop...., just doesn't spring to life. The fact is -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

[Op108wc]

Hendrik and HIS-story is mostly guessing; the rest is prejudice.



Originally posted by mario bava
Now, on another matter, as 'cloudy' always casts doubt on other Wing Chun lineages and histories, let us examine his lineage. Yik Kam was apparently taught Wing Chun around the same time as Wong Wah Bo at the time of the Red Boats. As research has pointed out, most lineages revolve around 2 time frames - before and after the red boats. What happened at the time of the Red Boats is now being recognised as a public period where people learned Wing Chun and then subsequently differing folk passed on their systems with different interpretations and lineage. As Yik Kam learned at the same time as Wong Wah Bo, why now do both lineages look so completely different? Is it fair to surmise that perhaps Yik Kam, using his knowledge of White Crane and other systems, made a blend of these systems before passing his knowledge on, thus changing what he had originally learned? Having only one, long Siu Lim Tao, is it possible to surmise that Yik Kam only learned a portion of the Wing Chun system, unlike Wong Wah Bo who was able to pass on a complete system with all forms intact? Is it possible that this myth of Wing Chun coming from White Crane is the only way that Hendrik can explain away the lack of similarity between his lineage and the other Wing Chun lineages? These are only a few questions, but as Hendrik is a fan of birds, what's good for the goose is good for the gander.


Other points of interest include a genuine Chinese Martial Art researcher and historian from China, who decades ago, stated that the link between Wing Chun and White Crane was no more than a myth.

[duende]

Hey Tony...

That picture you posted has got Hendrik whining non-stop. I haven't laughed this hard in years!!

[Op108wc]

Hello Gary,

If you keep your mind sufficiently open, people will throw a lot of rubbish into it. Everyone can make history. Only Hendrik "Cloudy" can write HIS-story.


El


Originally posted by mario bava
Hello There

I see now cloudy is actually telling people they don't 'know WCK' - this surely speaks for itself. Who does this man think he is?

On examination, cloudy has his own lineage to hold up and respect. His lineage has come from White Crane, no-one here will argue the facts of his lineage. But here arises problem no.1:
no1 - cloudy cannot speak for other lineages, only his own. When he directly or indirectly attacks other lineages, he is out of order and should expect attention

At times, cloudy has attacked other lineages, claiming they brand themsleves as originals. He does not seem to recognise problem no.2:
no.2 - When cloudy rubbishes all other Wing Chun lineages and the Shaolin connection, he is indirectly telling us that his lineage is the original. Hmmmm, where is the proof, cloudy? Is your word the only proof - ahh, then no thanks.

Here are a number of facts for consideration.

1 - Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and White Crane are two distinct arts
2 - Wong Wah Bo lineages contain Siu Lim Tao, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee
3 - cloudy practices one long Siu Lim Tao
4 - Yip Man lineage, from which I have 7 years experience, does not credit White Crane at all in it's history. Yip Man never mentioned it, neither have any of senior students.

So, cloudy's opinion goes against Yip Man, the Chinese government and the rest of the Wong Wah Bo lineages. If you wish people to take you seriously, cloudy, then get the Chinese government to alter official records, otherwise, have some respect for other lineages.

Your Wing Chun lineage comes from White Crane, but it's the only one that does. Someone mentioned in another forum that cloudy is a 'deep' person - the only thing about him that is deep are the holes he digs for himself spouting rubbish.

Cheerio, Gary

[Cang Long]

That picture you posted has got Hendrik whining non-stop. I haven't laughed this hard in years!! Alex, So true all because he was asked why he had his eyes closed just think what would have been his reaction if he was asked why his feet were so close together and why he has his elbow out! :eek:

[Op108wc]

why he had his eyes closed

A thousand names, a thousand topics, a thousand forums and the day will come when Hendrik will be famous for 15 minutes.

Hendrik is a person who works hard all his life to become well known, and then "had his eyes closed" to avoid being recognized.

[Cang Long]

A thousand names, a thousand topics, a thousand forums and the day will come when Hendrik will be famous for 15 minutes. Why the name changes, why the obscurity why the confusion hendrik's biggest fear is being exposed for the charlatan he is during those 15 minutes.

[mario bava]

Hello Everyone

This 15 mins everyone talks about is the maximum amount of time people will listen to cloudy before deciding he is full of garbage.

Cheerio, Gary.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Op108wc
O Hendrik couldn't make whipped cream out of water, and no matter how hard Hendrik flogs it, whips it, beats it, shakes it, kicks it and prods it with a sharp stick, "White Crane + Emie" his latest Ooop...., just doesn't spring to life. The fact is -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."


Hendrik is an idealist. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and where he's going but he's on his way to write his-story. :confused: :confused: :confused:

[Cang Long]

Hendrik is an idealist. He doesn't know what he's talking about, and where he's going but he's on his way to write his-story. Hungman,
Well said, and that I am sure probably doesn't bother anyone here it is his purposeful misrepresentation or disregard of known facts that is so bothersome. Surely he knows "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

[Hungman]

Is Yik Kam learned at the same time as Wong Wah Bo, why now do both lineages look so completely different? Is it fair to surmise that perhaps Yik Kam, using his knowledge of White Crane and other systems, made a blend of these systems before passing his knowledge on, thus changing what he had originally learned? Having only one, long Siu Lim Tao, is it possible to surmise that Yik Kam only learned a portion of the Wing Chun system, unlike Wong Wah Bo who was able to pass on a complete system with all forms intact?


CangLong & Mario,
Wong Wah Bo WCK and Yik Kam SLT are two distinct arts. Hendrik cannot make himself understood if he does not easily understand others.

[Cang Long]

Hello Hungman,
It is true hendrik can run from the facts but he cannot hide from them.

1. Wang Wah Bo was Yik Kam's senior.

2.The 2 were contemporaries both practicing at the same time. Meaning SNT,CK & BJ were already being practiced at the time 1 long SLT was being created.

3. The legend of Wing Chun and that of White Crane are 2 distinctly different stories that do not mix (although hendrik often tries to do just that).

4. Yip Man never mentions Yik Kam or White Crane in the passing down of his knowledge of Wing Chun.

5.Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts."

These are the facts that hendrik avoids. If he cares to have a civil discussion on the subject though lets start here.

[mario bava]

Hello There

Two more points of interest:

1 - I have been reading some of the posts on other threads by cloudy, and I have seen that he uses terms such as 6 vectors, among others. Having previous experience in Yip Man lineage, I know that my past teachers never used such terminology, and I believe Yip Man never used such terms either.

2 - Yik Kam claimed that his SLT was from the White Crane and Eimie systems, never claiming to be from Wong Wah Bo Wing Chun.

Put these points together and it is very clear that Wong Wah Bo Wing Chun and Yil Kam SLT are two distinct arts. Yik Kam never claimed otherwise, and the vocabulary of cloudy's art is different from that of the Wing Chun families. Until the multitude of posts put on this forum by Cang Long, Op108wc, the Hungman and myself can be absolutely disproved by cloudy, there is nothing for cloudy to talk about. Facts, cloudy, facts. The evidence is piled high against you. Now, can you respond to that?

[Op108wc]

Facts, cloudy, facts. The evidence is piled high against you. Now, can you respond to that?


He has not yet taken the consequence for that action and he constantly generates bad karma.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Levi (KFO)

Question for WC Families

yellowpickachu/hendrik/phenix/hsanto stated on another thread that IF it were proven that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" that it would "serves as a light to the history being told by YKS, Cho, Ip Man, Koolo... That the Ancestors are not lying to us about the creation of the art"

I have a question to any practicioners out there with knowledge of their traditions:

Does the YKS family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Cho family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Ip Man family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Does the Koolo family believe that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei"?

Thanks in advance. I'm just trying to make sure no one is misrepresented.

-Levi


As sweet as honey, thinks a fool an evil deed, so long as it bears no fruit;

But when it bears fruit, then the fool comes to grief.

[Hungman]

To an enlightened person, Wong Wah Bo WCK is still Wong Wah Bo WCK. Yik Kam SLT (Fukien White Crane + Emie) is still just Fukien White Crane + Emie. The two are different arts. Hendrik may think the two arts are the same, but he is confused and not enlightened. It is not wise to recreat "his-story" -- (yellowpickachu/hendrik/phenix/hsanto stated on another thread that IF it were proven that "SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei" that it would "serves as a light to the history being told by YKS, Cho, Ip Man, Koolo... That the Ancestors are not lying to us about the creation of the art") Wong Wah Bo WCK and Yik Kam SLT cannot be imitated. If Hendrik purposely imitate them, it can lead to trouble.

If some people do not even have the common sense to see these two arts as being different, they would be considered lunatics IMO.

[Hungman]

He has not yet taken the consequence for that action and he constantly generates bad karma.


Hello Elton,
Ordinary people perceive the world with vexed minds, and they deal with the world through their discrimination -- "Hendrik's words". This in turn, creates the environment -- "His-story; Fukien White Crane Weng Chun + Emie". Sometimes Hendrik even believes those reasons -- (quote)"SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei." and he is indirectly telling us that his lineage is the original and the oldest WCK. Because the idea that he is a mystery to himself is a little scary. Sometimes he's faced with contradictory evidence -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts.", and usually he ignores it.


Pete

[mario bava]

Hello There

It seems that cloudy cannot answer one of the questions put to him in the last number of posts in this thread. Here is some more information to consider.
In one of his unacceptable attacks on differing lineages of the Wing Chun family, he questioned what exactly Jee Shim was supposed to represent, thus suggesting that Jee Shim was part of a mere story. This cannot be acceptable behaviour surely, and these type of statements have resulted in this individual deserving not one ounce of respect. In these posts of his, he enquired about any real proof that Jee Shim was part of the Wing Chun family at all, thus again showing disrespect for that lineage. Now, I am aware of research by the VTM that shows that Jee Shim was indeed involved in the early development of what is modern Wong Wah Bo Wing Chun. While sharing concepts between themselves, these two systems ( Jee Shim and Wong Wah Bo ) are linked together by another system that cloudy likes to disrespect - Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun - and it is this link that shows the relationship between Jee Shim and WWB Wing Chun.
How so - Jee Shim and Hung Fa Yi have Kiu Sau, TSE concepts, Wooden Dummy and Butterfly Swords. Wong Wah Bo and Hung Fa Yi have Chi Sau, Wooden Dummy, SLT, Chum Kiu, Biu Jee and Butterfly Swords. So, with Hung Fa Yi providing the missing link between Jee Shim and Wong Wah Bo, it can be seen that Jee Shim is related to Wing Chun, no doubt about that. It is important for any readers of this to know these points, so that the agenda of cloudy to promote his lineage as the original Wing Chun, while at the same time spread false stories about the remaining lineages, is made known to people. Now, can cloudy dispute those facts that the 3 systems mentioned have in common? Can he really disrespect Jee Shim any further and question if it is or is not Wing Chun related? I am sure he can, but he should not.
On his proclamation that Wing Chun has come from Fukien WHite Crane and Eimei, let it be clear that no-one here contests that fact. That is his lineage, and is respected as such. However, since Wong Wah Bo represents the modern Wing Chun systems as a whole, why does Yik Kam lineage remain absolutely alone in it's claim about Fukien White Crane and Eimie? What does that tell us? It tells us that WWB Wing Chun and Yik Kam Wing Chun are two distinct arts completely, both having different sets and sources. It also highlights the absolute disrespect for lineages that cloudy has when he seems to suggest that his lineage is the 'original' and that every one else really haven't got a clue what they are doing. Oh yes, why does he take it on himself to completely ignore official Chinese records that state how Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane are TWO DISTINCT ARTS COMPLETELY? Can he answer these questions? Can he dispute these statements? Has the nerve to actually answer a question and debate without running away and leaving songs to try and talk for him?

Let's wait and see. But I hope no-one holds their breath.

Cheerio, Gary

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Hendrik"Cloudy" (WCA forum)

what we dont know is what does Jee Sim means? is he a person? a representative term of Shao lin art? What is the Characteristics of Jee Sim since even within the So called Southern Shao Lin, there are many many type of martial art style and system.



So, he is real Shao Lin monk. and as I advocate for so many years, if the monk with a reasonable achievement exist, there always a trace we can track him/her down.


and we would like to track Jee Sim down to see what style he belongs to and what influence he has on WCK in details. Otherwise, WCK always live in the blury.

[Hungman]

this individual deserving not one ounce of respect


Whenever Hendrik makes decisions, think, say, or do something, he is creating bad karma.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by passing_through
For myself, and I'll be posting more to this thread later as a record of comments...

Everything Hendrik posted above can be summed up in the following:

For everythings has two sides. Looking at it as it is is about AWARENESS but taking anyone of the side as the TRUTH is abiding in Form.

Stating that everything has two sides shows that he's taking a side. He doesn't meet is own standards of evidence, which - using his own words - is: ... oh, wait... there is no standard of evidence because he's constantly shifting the standard.

Based on these two posts, it looks like Awareness is the key to Hendrik's worldview. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to be aware of different cultures using different words - and sometimes the same words - differently.

Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu is a concept that directly relates to Awareness - Wandering, Aware or Focused. Now, these are English terms to explain a concept originally expressed in Chinese. Are the English words the exact same in context, culture, and meaning as the Chinese? Not likely. However, the English words to point in a direction.

This is something to bear in mind for research into Shaolin, martial arts and Buddhism... words point in a direction. Were the Chinese terms exactly the same in context, culture, connotation, and meaning as the original Pali language - the language into which the Buddhist Sutras were first written.

Chinese culture is a mix of Confucian, Buddhist, and Daoist ideas, metaphysics, terms and more. The Shaolin Temple was also a mix of many different influences - including different forms of Buddhsim, military thinking, and Taoism.

So, what's more important - language or experience? Is this an either/or question or a both/and question? I've always been more of a both/and type of person myself.

Looking at what Hendrik wrote about waves and such, I get what he's trying to say but he's still playing with words. Everything he wrote about particles and waves does not exist in the Buddhist sutras so he's WRONG (by his definitions in his own posts) to even try to use them.

He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and putting HIS understanding, HIS requirements, and HIS "proofs" against it. This is called a Straw Man argument. He's attacking something that's not really our point of view. I get a lot of what he's saying but I also see where he's missing the boat.

As for things having to be in the Buddhist Sutras in order to be um.. valid is the word I guess... by way of analogy, look at the "footprints in the sand" poem about God carrying the dreamer (I'll find it and post it later). There's nothing in the Bible about God carrying anyone but the poem is in line with the spirit and theme of the Christian message. So, it is a "traditional, authentic, true, original" Christian message? *shrug* It's spli]tting hairs.


Who determined what actions create good and bad karma?


"Good bye to the forum I would like to say good bye from this forum to lots of friends here. Thanks for the fun. I would like to say good bye to Rene, Robert, Andreas, Ernie, Pual, KJ, Matrix, Planet Wing Chun , Joy, David in Sandiago, DZu... BoB, Jim..YYLEE.. Phil... so here on thier names not get drop ... I would like to say good bye to those who hates me deep in their guts that now you have peace. it is very suffocate to choking each others. Not Zen at all. Bye bye peace hendrik" -- from KFO


The principles of Buddhism come from Shakyamuni Buddha. His principles are not commands telling us what to do or what not to do. They are not a moral code. Rather they are based on observation. With his wisdom, Shakyamuni was able to tell his disciples what consequence followed certain kinds of action, and he advised them to avoid actions that generated bad consequences and perform actions that generated good consequences.

[Op108wc]

On his proclamation that Wing Chun has come from Fukien WHite Crane and Eimei, let it be clear that no-one here contests that fact. That is his lineage, and is respected as such. However, since Wong Wah Bo represents the modern Wing Chun systems as a whole, why does Yik Kam lineage remain absolutely alone in it's claim about Fukien White Crane and Eimie? What does that tell us? It tells us that WWB Wing Chun and Yik Kam Wing Chun are two distinct arts completely, both having different sets and sources. It also highlights the absolute disrespect for lineages that cloudy has when he seems to suggest that his lineage is the 'original' and that every one else really haven't got a clue what they are doing. Oh yes, why does he take it on himself to completely ignore official Chinese records that state how Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane are TWO DISTINCT ARTS COMPLETELY? Can he answer these questions? Can he dispute these statements? Has the nerve to actually answer a question and debate without running away and leaving songs to try and talk for him?

Let's wait and see. But I hope no-one holds their breath.

Cheerio, Gary


Hendrik creates problems for himself. Therefore, he must come to realize and resolve problems himself. Has the nerve to actually answer a question and debate without running away? Hendrik, could you say that the Chan attitude is, if you cannot find a cause, do not bother with it?

[Op108wc]

Ordinary people perceive the world with vexed minds, and they deal with the world through their discrimination -- "Hendrik's words". This in turn, creates the environment -- "His-story; Fukien White Crane Weng Chun + Emie". Sometimes Hendrik even believes those reasons -- (quote)"SLT/SNT is a creation of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang of Emei." and he is indirectly telling us that his lineage is the original and the oldest WCK. Because the idea that he is a mystery to himself is a little scary. Sometimes he's faced with contradictory evidence -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts.", and usually he ignores it.



Is Hendrik's lineage the original WCK or the original Fukien White Crane Weng Chun? It seems they don't go together, like two sides of a coin. Wong Wah Bo Wing Chun and Yik Kam Fukien White Crane Weng Chun + Emie are two distinct arts completely, both having different sets and sources. If Hendrik is concerned with the motives behind his thoughts, words, and claims, the best thing is to answer some questions so that he develops clearer self-awareness.

[Hungman]

It's like someone running around in a dark room bumping into Hendrik (Cloudy).


Cloudy- It is not your failure to appreciate your own abiltys, but your failure to appreciate others. --Lao from WCA forum

[Cang Long]

If Hendrik is concerned with the motives behind his thoughts, words, and claims, the best thing is to answer some questions so that he develops clearer self-awareness. El,
Agreed, when one knows everything the only thing left to be concerned with is oneself and not the Details of Life clearly hendrik knows everything and clealy the only thing that now concerns him is himself Questions are mere distractions of time and Answers are out of the question.

The Question of how is it possible for Yik Kam SLT to be the origin of SNT/CK/BJ if Wong Wah Bo was already practicing SNT/CK/BJ when Yik Kam created one long SLT is a detail that obviously does not concern hendrik. He must be closing his eyes and shutting his ears to esacpe some of life's details.

[Op108wc]

Agreed, when one knows everything the only thing left to be concerned with is oneself and not the Details of Life clearly hendrik knows everything and clealy the only thing that now concerns him is himself Questions are mere distractions of time and Answers are out of the question.


This charecter Hendrik, all he knows is what he has read in books, or what he has imagined. Would you trust doctors or surgeons if the totality of their experience came from reading books?


The Question of how is it possible for Yik Kam SLT to be the origin of SNT/CK/BJ if Wong Wah Bo was already practicing SNT/CK/BJ when Yik Kam created one long SLT is a detail that obviously does not concern hendrik. He must be closing his eyes and shutting his ears to esacpe some of life's details.


hey CangLong, Is Yik Kam SLT really the original Wong Wah Bo WCK? Hendrik is just kidding himself. We often come across Hendrik who wishes to promote himself as the most "original", "secret", or "mysterious" inheritor of a particular system (Fukien White Crane Weng Chun + Emie). Every man is a damn fool for the at least five minutes everyday; wisdom consists of not exceeding the limit.

[Cang Long]

hey CangLong, Is Yik Kam SLT really the original Wong Wah Bo WCK? Hendrik is just kidding himself. We often come across Hendrik who wishes to promote himself as the most "original", "secret", or "mysterious" inheritor of a particular system (Fukien White Crane Weng Chun + Emie). Every man is a damn fool for the at least five minutes everyday; wisdom consists of not exceeding the limit. Op108wc,
Yik Kam SLT and ALL the various forms of WCK are worth knowing about if you are so inclined, have the time and resources to do some research, study and travel it is recommended. If you find yourself unable to do these things but still want to learn the intricasies of WCK may I suggest learning from a Wong Wah Bo Lineage.

Wong Wah-Bo

???? - ????

Leung BoCho Jee Shim

Leung LanKwai Wong WahBo

Leung YeeTai DaiFaMin Kam Other Red Junk Students Leung Jan Fok BoChuen

Wong Wah-Bo (Huang Huabao) was said to have been a Gulao, Heshan native and the senior-most Wing Chun Kuen practitioner of the Red Junk Opera in the mid-1800s. In the opera, he reportedly played the role of Mo-Sang, or the male martial lead. This part would have required extensive knowledge of the martial arts in general, especially the more dynamic fist and weapon routines.

In addition to his opera role, which would have required extensive knowledge of the more dynamic fist and weapon routines of Northern Opera, Wong reportedly studied the Wing Chun Kuen system under the fabled Leung Bok-Cho (and sometimes under Yim Wing-Chun as well.)

In some accounts, Wong had previous knowledge of Jee Shim's Weng Chun Kuen system (and sometimes was said to have traded knowledge of it with Leung Lan-Kwai for Wing Chun Kuen).

In some stories, Wong Wah-Bo reportedly taught Weng Chun Kuen to Dai Fa Ming Kam and Wing Chun Kuen to Leung Yee-Tai (in exchange for Weng Chun Kuen pole methods) and other Opera performers.

In the 1860s, Wong Wah-Bo retired to Foshan for a time where he taught fellow Gulao native, Leung Jan (sometimes said to have been in conjunction with classmate Leung Yee-Tai) as well as Fok Bo-Chuen (sometimes in conjunction with Dai Fa Min Kam) before returning to the opera in the 1870s.

Notes: Compiled from oral and written accounts of Yip Man and Sum Nung Wing Chun Kuen, and Jee Shim and Pan Nam Weng Chun Kuen.

Wong Wah Bo (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=51)

Some WCK - History (http://dgoldman.org/vingtsun/concepts/history.asp)

[Op108wc]

CangLong,
What carries over from one life (Red Boat WCK) to the next (...>>>Yip Man WCK)? What determines the Red boat WCK and what carries over to the Wong Wah Bo WCK is the original art of SNT, CK, BJ. Obviously it is not Hendrik's "original", "secret", and "mysterious" one long SLT.


El

Sometimes he's faced with contradictory evidence -- "Official Chinese records state that Wing Chun and Fukien White Crane Weng Chun are two distinct arts.", and usually he ignores it.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello There

In Hendrick's post, I have seen that he has stated the following:

"So, whoever create this saam dim yat sin dihng yuhn sahn doesnt know Buddhism in depth. Doesnt Know Chan. because s/he simply doesnt understand Buddhism."

Now, in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, this Kuen Kuit refers to how practitioner's must know their physical boundaries. This is indeed a truly Buddhist concept - I am aware that the Buddha, after 49 years of life, finally gained enlightenment, but within this enlightenment, the Buddha came to the realisation that what he now considered to be truth only applied to this universe and that his now enlightened truth may not apply to another universe. In other words, he understood the possible boundaries of this truth. Just as the Kuen Kuit of Hung Fa Yi understands the physical boundaries of truth in combat. This is, as Cang Long originally stated, derived from Buddhism, no doubt.

I feel that to suggest that the Hung Fa Yi Kuen Kuit do not have Buddhist origins is just a misinformed statement, at the very keast. Perhaps a little more knowledge of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun would light your way in making judgements, Hendrik.

Cheerio, Gary.


Hello Gary,
All Hendrik knows is what he has read in books. He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and he never get anywhere. It's like window-shopping. It's pointless to say, "Chan does this, and WCK does that" Why? Because Chan is a direct method, and WCK is also a direct method. Chan does not take the causal position. It speaks only the result, and HFYWCK speaks only the result -- "T/S/E". The Chan approach is like a sharp, double-edges sword. It can both help and hurt. People who have good karmic roots can be helped by the methods of Chan, and they can use the methods to attain realization. On the other hand, people with serious karmic obstruction may interpret the teachings incorrectly, and then suffer because of their erroneous understanding. Now you can see where Hendrik is missing the boat.


El

[Cang Long]

What carries over from one life (Red Boat WCK) to the next (...>>>Yip Man WCK)? What determines the Red boat WCK and what carries over to the Wong Wah Bo WCK is the original art of SNT, CK, BJ. Obviously it is not Hendrik's "original", "secret", and "mysterious" one long SLT. Worldly trappings can wreak havoc on the human mind and all the want and desire in the world cannot go against the facts. hendrik's blatant disregard for the facts is not only insulting and disrespectful to all who practice SNT, CK, BJ but shameful as well for he is not making an "honest mistake" but knowingly misleading others for some simple personal gratification, Mm Yan Chi Dai.

[mario bava]

Hello Op108wc and Cang Long

Tony, how are you, interesting information taken from the writings of many Wing Chun lineages. About the facts Tony - opinions come and go, but facts just remain. If cloudy cannot recognise the difference between a fact and an opinion, then he is lost.
Op108wc, how are you? I see that cloudy and some of his fans, like Master X, seem to constantly feel the need to talk about what is and is not Chan. 5 Precepts, meditations, etc, etc, etc are talked about as Buddhist traits, but it seems that cloudy and his fans are missing a lot - Chan is awareness, there is nothing more to debate, nothing left to ponder. Time, Space and Energy - all in this universe conform to these - all things in the universe conform to the principles of the universe, time, space and energy. Knowing this is awareness, nothing else. Chan is awareness, nothing else. No more illusions. 5 precepts and meditations are the vehicles which are used to gain awareness - Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is no different, using a vehicle to attain awareness. Sam Din Yat Sin - a vehicle for enlightenment. Sam Din Yat Sin - obeying the laws of the universe by raising awareness of time, space and energy. Sam Din Yat Sin - Chan - awareness. Chan removes illusions and arrives at awareness. Hung Fa Yi removes illusions and arrives at awareness. Chan is Chan. Cloudy is lost in his own opinion. Some day his opinion will dissappear, but the facts will remain. If only the man could see that.

Cheerio, Gary.

[Savi]

Awareness alone is not enough.

The only thing Cloudy is aware of is what is written before his eyes; a play on words and only words is his game.

words = techniques = FAU KIU

Deeper discussion is not his cup of tea.

[Cang Long]

All Hendrik knows is what he has read in books. He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and he never get anywhere. It's like window-shopping. It's pointless to say, "Chan does this, and WCK does that" Why? Because Chan is a direct method, and WCK is also a direct method. Chan does not take the causal position. It speaks only the result, and HFYWCK speaks only the result -- "T/S/E". The Chan approach is like a sharp, double-edges sword. It can both help and hurt. People who have good karmic roots can be helped by the methods of Chan, and they can use the methods to attain realization. On the other hand, people with serious karmic obstruction may interpret the teachings incorrectly, and then suffer because of their erroneous understanding. Now you can see where Hendrik is missing the boat. Thanks El,
Yes well said, we can clearly see that hendrik has missed the boat and his bad karma hangs over his head like a dust cloud over a barren desert.

[BennyMeng]

Cloudy keeps saying that if the word, "Saam Mo Kiu" doesn't exist anywhere in the Buddhist cannon, it can't exists. He also says, "Buddhism is THIS" and "Taoism is THAT"...

In realms of Wisdom, this person operates at the most superficial levels. He’s playing with words and often contradicts himself. Saam Mo Kiu is a phrase unique to the HFY system, coming from the Southern Shaolin Temple – which was a Chan temple. Chan Buddhism was already changed compared to the Buddhism from India. As a matter of fact, that’s the nature of Chan itself – change. For centuries Chan adapted to local concepts and philosophies, local culture. If you read Mastering Kung Fu we gave a background on Chan which is Buddhism influenced by Chinese Confucianism and Taoism, which created a unique expression. Chan contains the nature of all three of major systems of thought but more. HFY reflects this as well. For example, Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu is a phrase that has influence from both Buddhist and Daoist sources. To say, “Heaven, Human, Earth is Daoist and cannot exist in Buddhism” is superficial, to say the least. This has always been Cloudy’s tactic – to play with words.

In realms of connection between Wing Chun and White Crane, there has been a lot of research by both the Chinese governments in China and Taiwan. The conclusions to date have been that the two systems are separate. In my investigation of Cho Ga Wing Chun, this system was created during the timeframe of the Red Boat. The Red Boat generation was a melting pot. Everything he writes about Cho Ga – coming from White Crane and Ermei – is completely possible. In the Red Boat generation there was a lot of mixing in training methods and styles. However, Cloudy is not an authority in any way, shape or form. He doesn’t represent Cho Ga Wing Chun – he only represents his own ideas.

I have some more to say but we're running a Summer Camp this week. I'll post more later.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by BennyMeng
In realms of connection between Wing Chun and White Crane, there has been a lot of research by both the Chinese governments in China and Taiwan. The conclusions to date have been that the two systems are separate.


An interesting point to mention here is:

Fukien Weng Chun (Weng Chun County) White Crane is the White Crane system attributed to Fong Weng Chun (aka Fong Chut-Leung), and Fatshan Wing Chun is the Shaolin system attributed to Yim Wing Chun.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Hello all,
Cloudy is a name that pinpoints his mental perceptions. TYD directly relates to Chan, tells one were their awareness is within time space and energy. TSE is how Chan views reality. From this they gain enlightenment. Coudy, LOL.
1-2-3-10,000=Tao-Yin, Yang-T, S, E_Then ten thousand proceed.

[Cang Long]

originally posted by Master Meng
However, Cloudy is not an authority in any way, shape or form. He doesn’t represent Cho Ga Wing Chun – he only represents his own ideas.
originally posted by mario bava
Chan is awareness, nothing else. No more illusions. 5 precepts and meditations are the vehicles which are used to gain awareness - Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is no different, using a vehicle to attain awareness. Sam Din Yat Sin - a vehicle for enlightenment. Sam Din Yat Sin - obeying the laws of the universe by raising awareness of time, space and energy. Sam Din Yat Sin - Chan - awareness. Chan removes illusions and arrives at awareness. Hung Fa Yi removes illusions and arrives at awareness. Chan is Chan. Cloudy is lost in his own opinion. Some day his opinion will dissappear, but the facts will remain. If only the man could see that.Master Meng,
Gary,
hendrik rarely addresses the topic of history with any facts.
It is interesting how these things have to be pointed out to hendrik because it appears he has too much ego and not enough awareness to clearly state them himself.

[mario bava]

Hello Master Meng

It is wonderful once again to see the results of your genuine research, and how this research contradicts cloudy's opinions. The facts once again stand alone.

Hello Tony

I have the feeling if any facts were pointed out to cloudy, he wouldn't be interested - because facts are no use to this man, only fiction.

Cheerio, Gary.

[BennyMeng]

Let me go ahead and present the oral tradition of Fukien White Crane. My source is from the Taiwanese government.

The oral legend of Fukien White Crane (basically):
During the early Qing Dynasty, a Shaolin expert, Fong Jung, had a warrior’s spirit. He was active in the anti-Qing movements. He started teaching his only daughter, Fong Chut Leung. Later on she was arranged to be married but her future husband abandon her. In turn, she went into a Temple and perfected her kung fu skills by watching a crane. The temple was located in Fukien province, so she called her style Fukien White Crane. In the temple, she met a man who later became her student and eventually her husband. After getting married, they went to the city of Weng Chun and passed the system on. There were many successful generations in the city of Weng Chun. After 5 or 6 generations in the city of Weng Chun, the system was referred to as Fukien Weng Chun White Crane Fist due to the fact it was from the city of Weng Chun. There were several names for the system: Fukien White Crane Weng Chun Fist, White Crane Weng Chun Fist, and even Weng Chun Fist or Fukien White Crane.

In the 4th or 5th Generation, Ng Mui Si Taai – an expert in Weng Chun White Crane – taught the art to a girl named Yim Wing Chun. The girl Yim Weng Chun taught her knowledge to her husband, Leung Bok Chou. He named the art he learned after the girl, Yim Wing Chun.

Fukien White Crane is a system with dates going back over 300 years. The popular Ip Man oral history was most likely based on the Fukien White Crane legend due to the book Man Wan Ching. In this book, the author collected a lot of legends and mixed them together to write an exciting, fictional story around the destruction of the Southern Shaolin Temple and the martial arts.

Cloudy’s take on history is based on this oral legend with some other things mixed in.

Based on another version of White Crane history from the Secret Society background, researched by both the Taiwanese government and by the VTM, share consistency in historical facts (which I have cross-referenced outside White Crane, and it’s consistent with other information on Secret Societies):

What is called White Crane Weng Chun today came from Chan Gan Naam, who was primarily a revolutionary leader with a Taoist priest background and a Buddhist martial arts background. But even he wasn’t at the highest level in the secret societies or the martial art he was teaching.

In 1661, Cheung Sing Kung took control of Taiwan and established the Heaven & Earth Society (Tin Dei Wui). In Taiwan, the name used was Gam Toi San (Golden High Mountain). In the Gam Toi San society, there are records of White Crane practice. One of the top generals of Cheung Sing Kung was Chan Gan Naam, formerly a Taoist priest of the White Crane Temple that taught a crane-like system to a member of the Ming Dynasty royal family. One of the people he taught was a woman named Chat Leung. Her surname, or family name, was Chu (which connects to the Meng royal family).

While a Taoist priest, Chan Gan Naam’s martial arts background was actually Buddhist in origin. Chan Gan Naam had a high level of skill, achieving superior levels in internal development. The high level system he passed on was considered a superior skill that allowed practitioners to integrate other systems and styles. The members often used to describe the system as Hou Kuen, meaning “Good Fist” – which was sometimes mispronounced as “Hap Kuen” meaning, “Crane Fist.”

For these two reasons, his skill was referred to as “White Crane Fist.”

In the Gam Toi San society, the regular members or students had specific martial arts training. There were a total of three layers. The first layer was considered as fundamental. On the second layer, when someone became an insider or disciple he would start to learn the “Hap Faat” or Crane Methods. In the true sense, regular members learned fundamentals while insiders learned a deeper method. The name, “Crane Fist” referred to a higher level of information that was taught to inside people. At the highest level, sometimes referred to as “Loi Ga Kuen,” focused on internal development and was reserved only for the leaders.

In the Gam Toi San White Crane Kuen Po, a lot of the Kuen Kuit also contains anti-Qing meanings. For example:

Sei Min Kung Fung Che Lung Jyun
Turning and spinning the strong wind in four directions.

Sing Gung Je Yiu Yut Jut Ming
To be successful, all you need is the Sun and Moon being bright

The public story is that Chu Chut Leung created an animal style but the reality is that a high-level martial artist created it and taught it instead.

As time progressed, the White Crane information spread widely – including into the city of Weng Chun. Then, through unclear communication – or deliberate confusion – the training adopted the name of “White Crane Weng Chun.” This White Crane Weng Chun had nothing to do with the Weng Chun Tong of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

The modern story of Yim Wing Chun borrows very heavily from the origins of White Crane. But, behind the scenes of Chan Gan Naam’s creation there is still another, higher level of connection between the martial arts, secret societies, and the Southern Shaolin Temple.

Next time, I will cover the many takes on “Ng Jou” or Five Elders…

[Op108wc]

What is your opinion of modern writings, such as Zen In The Martial Arts?


Zen In The Martial Arts

In the book, "The Zen Way To the Martial Arts", the author, Taisen Deshimaru, gets asked a number of questions, some of which I'm going to relate here on this thread. But first, some background...

"During an introductory session on the practice of Zen and the martial arts held in Zinal, Switzerland, in the summer of 1975, the several hundred participants expressed a need to explore in greater depth the relationship between meditation and action. In response to this call, Master Taisen Deshimaru, who was leading the session, spoke on the subject at length during zazen meditation and at other times. The true kinship between Zen and the martial arts, he explained, lies in the fact that both can lead us toward the SPIRIT OF THE WAY: because any conflict, whether it takes place within the body and mind or outside them, is always a battle against the self."

QUESTION: "How does one choose the technique of attack?"

T.D. - "There is no choosing. It happens unconsciously, automatically, naturally. There can be no thought, because if there is a thought there is a time of thought and that means a flaw.

For the right moment to occur there must be permanent, totally alert awareness of the entire situation: that awareness chooses the right stroke, technique and body execute it, and it's all over."


QUESTION: "In kendo, for example, there is a tactic called debana wasa: you must attack before the opponent does, strike before he strikes. For that technique, intuition is very important?"

T.D. - "It is always important, essential. If an opponent gives you a blow you were not expecting, then you have to have the intuition to parry it, the consciousness to get away, to save yourself - the consciousness that will trigger the right reaction of body and technique. But if you take the time to think, 'I must use this or that technique,' you will be struck while you're thinking. Intuition triggers body and technique. Body and consciousness unite, you think with the whole body, your whole self is invested in the reaction.

That's why it is so difficult to make categories about the order of importance of shin, wasa, tai - (mind, technique, body). They have to be united, not separate. It is the perfect union of the three that creates the right action; not their separation. Complete unity.

In the Japanese martial arts, kendo, the way of the sword, has always been regarded as the noblest of all because it necessitated the most complete union of all three, consciousness-intuition, body, technique."
__________________
Victor Parlati

[mario bava]

Hello Master Meng

That was another educating read about some facts researched by genuine organisations. I feel this forum is wonderful for new members to get an idea of what truths are being revealed by genuine research. It is also a guiding light for those who may be caught out by cloudy, who to this day still will not ( or perhaps cannot ) answer any of the questions raised by Levi, Op108wc or Cang Long. Nor can he produce the facts to back up his claims about Wing Chun. That speaks for itself.

Cheerio, Gary

[Op108wc]

Karma with outflows -- whether good, bad, or neutral -- is created by "Hendrik" attached to an illusory self; its course is conditioned by the three poisons of desire, anger, and ignorance.

Originally posted by Simpleton
Santo talks too much and has nothing to back it up,

As the saying goes - what goes around comes around", or as John Lennon so aptly put it, "Instant Karma's Gonna Get You!" Or perhaps an older quote, "Do unto others..." is more appropriate in this case.

[Hungman]

All Hendrik knows is what he has read in books. He's looking at one thing at a time, out of context, and he never get anywhere. It's like window-shopping. It's pointless to say, "Chan does this, and WCK does that" Why? Because Chan is a direct method, and WCK is also a direct method. Chan does not take the causal position. It speaks only the result, and HFYWCK speaks only the result -- "T/S/E". The Chan approach is like a sharp, double-edges sword. It can both help and hurt. People who have good karmic roots can be helped by the methods of Chan, and they can use the methods to attain realization. On the other hand, people with serious karmic obstruction may interpret the teachings incorrectly, and then suffer because of their erroneous understanding. Now you can see where Hendrik is missing the boat.


One of the key features of Ch'an is that, to the enlightened mind, everything remains exactly as it is. There are not two worlds, one seen by those who are enlightened and another representing the world of everyday experience. The same thing that becames a matter of wonder to the enlightened, remains ordinary to the person (Hendrik) who has not been so enlightened.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by PaulH on WCA

As the Kuit " comes retain, goes send it back... using the silence to manage the action" that has point it out very clearly. Let go the control and stay in the silence----- Hendrik

With both eyes wide open, I still can't see your point, Hendrik! Wink Control doesn't mean being fixated on an idea or a tactical position or any advantages. Indeed If the kuit says anything, it is a clear instruction on the manner of how you should handle the coming and leaving of force. Is this not control? Again, using silence to manage the action. Did you see that as well? Or as Zatoichi says: "I don't see much."


In the big picture, Hendrik has been trying to ruin your concentration.

[Cang Long]

To an enlightened person, Wong Wah Bo WCK is still Wong Wah Bo WCK. Yik Kam SLT (Fukien White Crane + Emie) is still just Fukien White Crane + Emie. The two are different arts. Hendrik may think the two arts are the same, but he is confused and not enlightened. It is not wise to recreat "his-story" -- There is no big picture nor point for the narrow minded and confused person that thinks of himself as enlightened and all others as wrong yet the facts weigh heavly against him yet never on his mind. hendrik has 3 levels or requirements for answering questions Vague, Obscure and his favorite Silence none of which can answer how his theory can be correct if Wong Wah Bo is Yik Kam's senior.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
There is no big picture nor point for the narrow minded and confused person that thinks of himself as enlightened and all others as wrong yet the facts weigh heavly against him yet never on his mind. hendrik has 3 levels or requirements for answering questions Vague, Obscure and his favorite Silence none of which can answer how his theory can be correct if Wong Wah Bo is Yik Kam's senior.


Often Hendrik's "W O R D S - S O N G S - H I S-STORY" are not back up by actual experience. Unfortunately, it is usually difficult for an ordinary person, or even Rene and Robert, to detect this. Without genuine experience even with over 1000 posts Hendrik eventually reveals his inexperience and insincerity.

[Cang Long]

Often Hendrik's "W O R D S - S O N G S - H I S-STORY" are not back up by actual experience. Unfortunately, it is usually difficult for an ordinary person, or even Rene and Robert, to detect this. Without genuine experience even with over 1000 posts Hendrik eventually reveals his inexperience and insincerity. Hungman,
I too have noticed this and it reminds me that in the search for truth when we use any factors other than our own experience of time space and energy to determine reality often times reality becomes elucive to grasp and lost in the depth of our own illusion and still this is the nature of things.

hendrik's theory would suggest he is in search of the knowledge of Wong Wah Bo yet his own limits have caused him to become stagnant on the work of Yik Kam so he misses the boat every time. Those that know and watch are amused by his antics and his inablity to progress.

Peace to you and yours Hungman.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Those that know and watch are amused by his antics and his inablity to progress.


Cang Long,
"All Hendrik knows is what he has read in books.--Elton" That speaks and reveals all about the self-proclaimed expert Hendrik Santo. Without genuine experience, all he writes is what he has borrowed from others. Nor can he produce the facts to back up his claims about his lineage "Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane Boxing" as the most original WCK would. Is he aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption and the inability to listen to others?


HM

[Cang Long]

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practise to deceive!" - Sir Walter Scott. So desperate to keep his-story going hendrik has taken to borrowing bits and pieces from himself.
Is he aware of the suffering caused by unmindful consumption and the inability to listen to others? With his ego in charge hendrik can only see and hear his favorite thing (himself). Fortunately with each day that passes his target audience gets smaller and smaller as people naturally tire of waiting for answers that could be and should be answered but aren't so they seek them out from other sources.
Originally posted by Master Meng
As time progressed, the White Crane information spread widely – including into the city of Weng Chun. Then, through unclear communication – or deliberate confusion – the training adopted the name of “White Crane Weng Chun.” This White Crane Weng Chun had nothing to do with the Weng Chun Tong of the Southern Shaolin Temple.

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

You mantioned how cloudy's target audience is getting smaller and smaller - I am aware that he does not have a school - is this why he constantly insults other lineages of Wing Chun? Does he feel that he will have no-one to answer to for all the insults he has perpetrated? He may not have to answer to anyone, but he will never escape the negative energy he has created.

Cheerio, Gary

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

So far I have seen no answer from cloudy to the many questions raised on this forum - questions such as:

As Yik Kam was a juniour of Wong Wah Bo, and Wong Wah Bo Wing Chun has SLT, CK and BJ, with Yik Kam having only one long SLT, how can cloudy suggest that all WWB lineages are not proper Wing Chun when these lineages come from the senior of Yik Kam and have all 3 forms as opposed to 1?

If the Chinese government states that Fukien White Crane and WWB Wing Chun are two distinct arts, why does cloudy dispute this and can he disprove it?

In the past, cloudy has suggested that the Wing Chun Tan Sau has come from the Eimie 12 Palm system - I am aware of no other Wing Chun lineage making such a claim at all, so can he prove this and is he suggesting that WWB lineage holders have got it all wrong?

These are only a few of the questions he will not ( or cannot ) answer. Indeed, I am also aware that cloudy seems to report that Chi Shim is not Wing Chun at all, another insult. Master Meng, through his independent research museum, has discovered that Chi Shim was involved in the development of mainstream Wing Chun, and thus IS a member of the Wing Chun family. Now, can cloudy disprove this research? Does he dare to suggest that Chi Shim Weng Chun is nothing to do with Wing Chun at all? Can he prove this, or stand up to his remarks? I am aware that he cannot! By all accounts, a certain Chi Shim Master was able to put cloudy onto his backside in less than a few seconds, and at this time cloudy apparently shouted 'that's not Wing Chun' with a very red face!!!! Even in defeat, the man is still blind!!!
So, cloudy suggests that Chi Shim is not Wing Chun, that WWB Wing Chun is not Wing Chun, and that only he has the original Wing Chun. If this is so, then why the quick and easy defeat? Hmmm, I think cloudy won't answer that question, as usual.
I am also aware that cloudy continually speaks of Chi Gung breathing exercises, etc. This Chi Gung he speaks of did him no good when he hit the ground!! 100's of branches of martial art speak about this, so I wonder if cloudy would mind explaining these techniques in open, honest detail, instead of quoting songs and evading tough questions.
That reminds me, a while ago cloudy made a threat of litigation - I wonder if he has permission to use people's lyrics in the manner he does? Is he breaking copyright? ;)
Speaking of his songs, there is also something peculiar about this guy. He is always talking about 'falling in love' and loving the way he is etc, etc, etc. Should he not be telling these things to a wife or girlfriend and concentrate on keeping the forums on the topics they are for? :D

As a whole, it is becoming increasingly difficult to treat this man and his ideas seriously.

Cheerio, Gary

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Hendrik Santo (Cloudy)
As for Y Wu, one of the author of the complete WC, Rene and Robert might be able to tell if he is a student of Hawkin or not.
The last time I heard, his ex sifu is sifu Ku Chai Wa not Rev. Lau soon. Y Wu was also asking my siheng to teach him for a short period of time.

Linking Y WU to Rev Lao Soon to Leong Jan line is not respecting Sifu Ku, Rev Lao Soon, GM Cho On and Yik Kam.


Why did Hendrik attack Y. Wu (the author of the Complete Wing Chun) in the public? Would that earn Hendrik a spot where he can appoint himselfself as the only voice of the Cho family?