TWC & Hung Kuen's Ng Ying Kuen

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by TenTigers
To add to this-the long bridges, which were added to the system due to Wong Fei-Hung's relationship with Lama P'ai stylist, Wong Yun-Lum, are also used to attack from the long range in order to close with the opponent, which is where the short bridges come into play. Coincidentally, the "Wing Chun Entry Technique" so popularized by William Cheung, is an identical technique within Hung Kuen's Ng Ying Kuen.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=568

[sihing]

Has anyone seen this technique demonstrated in Hung method? Maybe it looks similar but is different in concept and application? I would be curious to see it demonstrated to learn more about how the perform this movement.

Oh, Op108wc, what is your interpretation or understanding of the TWC entry technique. Have you ever seen it done or had someone explain the concept to you?


James

[William E]

Sihing

It’s good to see you on the forum and I hope all is well with you. I have not seen the Hung method of the “entry technique” but would enjoy seeing it. In regards to the TWC entry technique, I have seen it performed but have never had it personally explained by a TWC sifu (hint, hint). What I can do is give my interpretation from what I see and hopefully provide some insight into the HFY approach which in some respects resembles the entry technique but is different.

Here is a link to Sifu Phil Redmond’s site which has some videos of the entry technique.

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/tech.asp (third row down)

I had been shown previously that the engagement was from the inside of the arm where the opponents punch is intercepted and the centerline is attacked. I will limit my comments to the videos above where the TWC player is flanking to the outside.

In the video entitled “Entry Technique” the first thing that I notice is the distance between both opponents. From what I can see the TWC player initiates the attack from long range (several feet from his opponent), leaving his feet and then making contact (bridging) after flanking his opponent and then controlling the centerline.

In HFY we do not initiate the attack from this range. Sifu has a saying ,“Do not believe what you see, but only what you feel”. This would be a time that I would use that saying as there is no guarantee of the result of this move. It most instances it may work which is great but if you are up against a skilled opponent and it doesn’t work you are jumping into the grappling range where your opponent can use both hands against you, otherwise known as chi sau range in HFY. That is a compromise that we do not make.

Let’s face it, the opponent here just sticks his arm out there and he never moves his feet. Unrealisting in my opinion. If the opponent was a skilled fighter and instead moved his feet and turned his body (regaining centerline) and performed a huen sau the TWC player would then be on the defensive because both hands of his opponent would be in play.

I’ve got to hit the sack but I look forward to providing additional insights into the HFY Bai Jong engagements along with reading contributions from other individuals.

William E.

[Op108wc]

what is your interpretation or understanding of the TWC entry technique.


More like a Biu Sau block!?!

[duende]

Originally posted by sihing
Has anyone seen this technique demonstrated in Hung method? Maybe it looks similar but is different in concept and application? I would be curious to see it demonstrated to learn more about how the perform this movement.

Oh, Op108wc, what is your interpretation or understanding of the TWC entry technique. Have you ever seen it done or had someone explain the concept to you?


James

Hey James... I think William gave another good POV about this entry technique stuff.

After all... it is just one technique. Undoubtably, there is much more to TWC than this techinique that gets brought up time and time again.... usually for political purposes.

What interests me more so here is the relationship between the TWC technique and the Hung Ga entry technique...

If Ten Tigers feel's they are exactly the same, I think it would be interesting to hear why he thinks so on a conceptual level.

I'm curious to see if it relates at all to HFY's Bai Jong Bot Bo Gin.

Anyways... it's late for me too.

Alex

[Op108wc]

In HFY we do not initiate the attack from this range. Sifu has a saying ,“Do not believe what you see, but only what you feel”. This would be a time that I would use that saying as there is no guarantee of the result of this move.


Oops! How did I miss that? I agree 100% Thanks William! Look forward to reading what Ten Tigers has to say.

[TenTigers]

The technique is similar, although we do it a bit differently. We use either a snap kick, or heel thrust. This is what many call Mo Ying Geurk-No Shadow Kick, in this case using the hands to hide the intent of the kick. The entire technique can be used to the flank-blindside, or to the inside gate, flanking I feel might be preferable.
Since both the biu-sao and kick go out simultaneously, the opponent has four choices:get a shot to the eyes,get kicked in the groin,or both, or raise both his guard and his knee, in all cases, the initiator whether the initial strike hits or not, is connecting with the bridge."Where there is no bridge, erect one, and cross it" is a Hung maxim. The follow up in the form is a series of rapid-fire biu-jee,over, over, under, over-last one being at a slight out ward angle. Similar to chain punches. I do agree that there is no unstoppable technique. There are high percentage and low percentage techniques, however. In the video, I don't think it was demonstrated to the fullest effect, as the attacker did not control the bridge, and threw his chain punches from what I would concider too far away. I prefer to be in his horse.
A good opponent will angle off and face the attack, or move to avoid it, a distinct possibility, but that also brings up the delema every time you discuss technique. If I tell you exactly what I am going to do, of course you will be able to adjust and counter it. I think the basic premise is that no one intends to first tell the opponent exactly what they will do-unless you're Billy Jack.:)

[sihing]

Good posts guys,

In my lineage, which is similar to TWC but different in many aspects, we too have a entry technqiue/concept that employs using a kick simultaneously, we call it Pseudo Entry, as well as the Entry Technique similar to what was demo'd in the video. I think that video was purely just that a demo, nothing done to fast or deliberate to demonstrate to the people viewing it a idea of what it is. In reality the distance of entry should be done closer to the opponent, similiar opinion as William. My idea of it is to enter just outside kicking range. We stop at the wrist range when a bridge is formed to use the feeling aspect that William mentioned earlier. If no bridge or obstacle is formed we continue forward from there, utlizing our forward intention concept. Also with the Entry movement, it always has the ability to be stopped in mid flight (therefore it is interuptable), and also it is usually done much more quickly and explosively as compared to what was shown in the video. Sorta like punching, when you punch you do so with explosiveness and quickness.

James

[Cang Long]

We stop at the wrist range when a bridge is formed to use the feeling aspect that William mentioned earlier. If no bridge or obstacle is formed we continue forward from there, utlizing our forward intention concept. Also with the Entry movement, it always has the ability to be stopped in mid flight (therefore it is interuptable), and also it is usually done much more quickly and explosively as compared to what was shown in the video Sihing,
Reveiwing what you posted here questions arise. 1. Why intentionally stop at the wrist? 2. "has the ability to be stopped"...how so?