What's this??? 8-0

[Armin]

Hi to all!

There's a very interesting statement on the net, I'd like to show you (without judging it!!!):

Source: IWKA of Sergio Iadarola (http://www.wingtjun.com/)

20.09.2005

Important statement by Dai-Sifu Iadarola

Over the last 6 months enormous positive changes have taken place within the IWKA; change of name, programme changes, change of the infrastructure and the completion of the roadmap for 2006.
Starting with the launch of the IWKA dvd ' The secret's out Wing tjun is Weng chun and Weng chun is Wing tjun' followed by an entirely new worldwide web presence more professional and more in line with the quality present within the association. Naturally the changes didn't go as smoothly as wished for but we are happy to announce that within most countries of the IWKA things are on track and going ahead at full speed.
Therefore I want to dedicate this letter especially to the Italian peninsula which because of several factors is the last to adopt these changes. Therefore I am happy to announce that I in person will from now on be the chief Italian instructor and will personally hold regular seminars every three months.

In 1987 I started Wing Chun in Amsterdam, the following years travelling through Europe studying under several instructors to learn the authentic Leung Ting Wing Tsun. Even teaching in Israel and serving as its chief instructor for the EWTO to achieve that aim. 1997 until 2001 is what I like to call my 'Hong Kong' period. In 1997 I travelled to Hong Kong for the first time with my Israeli student and friend Tomer Barzilai visiting and studying under various students of the late GGM Yip man. In 1998 I had the fortune of being accepted as a private student of GM Leung Ting becoming his favourite and closest student. In the following years I spent many months in Hong Kong getting private lessons and even going on holiday with the Grandmaster to Miami. Eventually finishing the whole unarmed GM Leung Ting system in 1999 and completing the weapons in 2001.

The people who have had such a close relationship with the Grandmaster and his art can be counted on one hand therefore I think it's incredible that several technicians of the IWKA are judging the steps the IWKA is taking for their benefit. I should surely know what I am doing being the only person in the world that finished the Leung Ting system and is deep into the successor lineage Weng Chun. If I have changed the Leung Ting system it's for a good reason.

Two things need to be very clear.

1. What is IWKA Wing Tjun?

2. Why do not just do Weng Chun and leave Wing Tjun if that is the original and superior system?

Let me clarify point one first. IWKA is heavily influenced by Weng Chun and is totally superior to the Leung Ting system. Over the last few months I have proved that time and time again in theory and practice. How is that possible? Due to the simple fact that I have been fortunate to have access to the same source as GGM Yip man had access to when he created his personal interpretation of Ving Tsun with the big difference being that I had one hundred percent access and according to the latest research GGM Yip man probably did not.

Confused?

GGM Yip man studied in Dai Duk Lan in the late fifties and early sixties under GM Chu Chung Man, GM Wai Yan and GM Tang Yick. GM Wai Yan's successor is GM Andreas Hoffmann who is the Sifu of Dai-Sifu Sergio Iadarola.

Another important detail is Weng Chun is just a different spelling for the same art. Did you know that the Weng Chun grandmasters used Wing Tsun as their western spelling of their art and GGM Yip Man (used) Ving Tsun after an important meeting in the late sixties.

Point two. Weng Chun is the latest western spelling to differentiate the successor lineage from the public versions and personal interpretations. Therefore it's very understandable that I don't want to give and teach the art to just everybody. Let's take a look at an example. To the average John on the street or housewife it doesn't matter if they learn a simple basic Karate block or the most profound martial art theories ever devised by mankind. They cannot tell the difference! It can therefore hurt you as Sifu as you don't get the right amount of feedback and appreciation from the students. At the same time only really dedicated martial artists can learn the original system which is now known as Weng Chun because it is much longer and profound.

So that's exactly the reason we need IWKA Wing Tjun for the average person, because it's these people who represent our biggest market!!!!!!! (IWKA Wing Tjun is simple self defence and conditioning of the highest possible quality taught in a state of the art syllabus, a Kung fu system which can be finished in about six years with twice weekly training. Influenced by the original system Weng Chun to make it superior to everything currently on the market and allowing for smooth transition from IWKA Wing Tjun to IWKA Weng Chun at a certain level.)

The IWKA headquarters in Amsterdam serves as a great example of how this functions in real life by having well over 300 students in Wing Tjun and about 50 in Weng Chun.

On the 21st and 22nd of January the new 12 student programmes will be officially introduced to the Italian teachers for the price of only 100 euros, certificates will be given and video capturing the programmes is allowed. This will also be a great opportunity for other overseas instructors in need of repetition. The seminar will be held at the school of Master Massimo Fiorentini in Naples.

Together we stand, divided we fall!

Dai-Sifu Iadarola.

Maybe someone of you or even GM Andreas Hoffmann can tell something to this - I'm too tired to impress my thoughts on this.


Armin.

[Op108wc]

Indeed, that's very interesting!


I should surely know what I am doing being the only person in the world that finished the Leung Ting system

[Armin]

Hi!

Let me highlite you some more very interesting parts:

Naturally the changes didn't go as smoothly as wished for but we are happy to announce that within most countries of the IWKA things are on track and going ahead at full speed.
Therefore I want to dedicate this letter especially to the Italian peninsula which because of several factors is the last to adopt these changes. Therefore I am happy to announce that I in person will from now on be the chief Italian instructor and will personally hold regular seminars every three months.
What happened? The Italians where the first to join him, after he split from the EWTO.

1997 until 2001 is what I like to call my 'Hong Kong' period. In 1997 I travelled to Hong Kong for the first time with my Israeli student and friend Tomer Barzilai visiting and studying under various students of the late GGM Yip man. In 1998 I had the fortune of being accepted as a private student of GM Leung Ting becoming his favourite and closest student. In the following years I spent many months in Hong Kong getting private lessons and even going on holiday with the Grandmaster to Miami.
Sergio already had to admit, that he only had 46 hours of lesson (or a little bit more) - months of training???

Eventually finishing the whole unarmed GM Leung Ting system in 1999 and completing the weapons in 2001.
He didn't learn the weapons from Leung Ting, btw.

The people who have had such a close relationship with the Grandmaster and his art can be counted on one hand therefore I think it's incredible that several technicians of the IWKA are judging the steps the IWKA is taking for their benefit.
So there are people in his own organisation, judging him and his course!

I should surely know what I am doing being the only person in the world that finished the Leung Ting system
There must be more - common, what about this chinese instructors holding the highest ranks or Keith Kernspecht or several others, who claim that Sergio Iadarola taught them everything he knows?!

and is deep into the successor lineage Weng Chun.
How long has he been training Weng Chun - 2 years, 3 years? And he's already looking on himself as on of the successors of Weng Chun???

If I have changed the Leung Ting system it's for a good reason.
Well, man. If your students and fellow-sifu criticize you for that, why don't you tell them, why you changed the system.

Let me clarify point one first. IWKA is heavily influenced by Weng Chun and is totally superior to the Leung Ting system.
So IWKA (International Wisdom and *whatwasit*) is a Weng Chun flavoured Leung Ting Wing Tsun style - that is superior to WT. Congrats on that - this task wasn't to hard, right?!

Due to the simple fact that I have been fortunate to have access to the same source as GGM Yip man had access to when he created his personal interpretation of Ving Tsun with the big difference being that I had one hundred percent access and according to the latest research GGM Yip man probably did not.
That makes him better, than 'the old man', correct? Yip Man wasn't shown everything, right? The Weng Chun-guys did take his money, but they didn't teach him! (Compare to following!)

GGM Yip man studied in Dai Duk Lan in the late fifties and early sixties under GM Chu Chung Man, GM Wai Yan and GM Tang Yick.
That's not true! The same question was asked on the forum of the VTAA - and they denied the truth of such b**ls**t

Another important detail is Weng Chun is just a different spelling for the same art. Did you know that the Weng Chun grandmasters used Wing Tsun as their western spelling of their art and GGM Yip Man (used) Ving Tsun after an important meeting in the late sixties.
No, the didn't. They called it 'Chi Sim Ving Tsun' - after they originally called it Weng Chun. Maybe someone with more knwoledge could elaborate on the chinese signs. Are they the same???

Point two. Weng Chun is the latest western spelling to differentiate the successor lineage from the public versions and personal interpretations.
I thought, Andreas Hoffmann called it 'Weng Chun' because of the connection to 'Weng Kiu'?

Therefore it's very understandable that I don't want to give and teach the art to just everybody.
:confused: When going to Andreas Hoffmann, he won't teach you WT - he'll teach you Weng Chun right from the beginning. What's the deal?

Let's take a look at an example. To the average John on the street or housewife it doesn't matter if they learn a simple basic Karate block or the most profound martial art theories ever devised by mankind. They cannot tell the difference! It can therefore hurt you as Sifu as you don't get the right amount of feedback and appreciation from the students. At the same time only really dedicated martial artists can learn the original system which is now known as Weng Chun because it is much longer and profound.
Weng Chun as a premium article only for the dedicated - or the ones that are ready to pay more?!

So that's exactly the reason we need IWKA Wing Tjun for the average person, because it's these people who represent our biggest market!!!!!!!
Here's the truth, why Sergio Iadarola teaches WT or IWKA or whatever - the biggest market, the biggest amount of money possible!

Sorry, that's really too much. Let me ask this:

An Großmeister Andreas Hoffmann - ich wähle diese Anrede bewusst, um hier meinen Respekt Dir und Deinem System gegenüber zu bezeugen. Wie stehst Du zu solchen Aussagen? Sicher gibt es da ein paar Sachen, die diskussionswürdig sind und über die jeder seine eigene Meinung hat (z. B. die Sache, das Yip Man Weng Chun erlernt haben soll) - aber lassen wir diese Themen ruhen. Ich möchte Dich etwas anderen fragen: wie kann es sein, dass Sergio Iadarola solche Aussagen treffen kann und dass Du ihm das durchgehen lässt? Mir scheint es, als würde er bereits in Deinem Namen reden - auch wenn es vielleicht nicht so ist?

Ich bitte Dich höflichst um Klärung und bedanke mich vielmals im Vorraus.

Back to english - sorry, it was easier for me to express what I wanted to ask in german in the correct manner. In short: fo rme, it looks like Sergio Iadarola is already talking in the name of Weng Chun and Andreas Hoffmann. Why does Andreas Hoffmann let Sergio Iadarola do this?!


Armin.

[Op108wc]

I don't know much about Leung Ting's WT, but there're some of the Yip Man-Moy Yat Ving Tsun videos showing here.



http://www.moyyat.net/brice/moyyatnet.nsf/movies?Openform

[Op108wc]

Is 'Weng Chun' the name of Weng Chun Tong? Can GM Andreas Hoffmann or Master Benny Meng tell us more about this?


I thought, Andreas Hoffmann called it 'Weng Chun' because of the connection to 'Weng Kiu'?

[Cang Long]

I should surely know what I am doing being the only person in the world that finished the Leung Ting system Wow, very interesting indeed, has Dai Sifu Iadaora ever demonstrated publicly that he knows what he is doing?

[Armin]

Hello!

@ Cang Long:

Wow, very interesting indeed, has Dai Sifu Iadaora ever demonstrated publicly that he knows what he is doing?
Well, he was good enough, to pull a lot of masters and schools out of the EWTO - his WT must indeed be awesome. Or maybe he just was a cheaper source for the last few bits of knowledge. I don't know.

People over here, who met him, say that he is very good.

Let me change the direction of your question: Has he any idea of what he is doing with such statements?


Armin.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hello Armin,

I have a lot of students around the world. Some of them are Wing Chun masters, too. I don´t controll them, they are free and independent.

Sergio Iadarola don´t speak for me or the weng chun family. In my opinion he wants to express his personal experience. Most in his statement he speaks about GM Yip Mans Wing Chun. I´m not his teacher in this art, this was GM Kernspecht,GM Leung Ting and is GM Allan Fong.

We the Weng Chun family respect late GM Yip Man and his wing chun. It is a fact that GM Yip Man exchanged in Dai Duk Lan, same that he exchanged with his friend late GM Yuen Kay Shan.

Sifu Hoffmann

[Armin]

Hello GM Andreas,

thanks for your reply! There shines a different light on this right now.

Yip Man exchanged knowledge in Dai Duk Lan. Hm, can you tell me, if there was an exchange of knowledge, what did Yip Man learn and what did he teach? Is it possible to find that out after all this years?

I did see some old photos of Yip Man with some of the members of Dai Duk Lan, so I believe that there has been a friendly relationship at least.


Armin.

[Armin]

Ah, sorry, there's one more thing coming to my mind. Isn't it true, that Sergio Iadarola isn't only student, but he's one of your disciples? Didn't I read somewhere, that he did bai si and you accepted him?

Wel, I thought, that disciples stand real close to their sifu, closer as anyone else. Is it normal in chinese tradition, that a sifu let's his disciples do as they will? (I have no real idea about this discipleship, so that's why I ask)

Or shouldn't you stand behind him like a father, twisting his ears everytime he does something wrong?! ;)


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Let me change the direction of your question: Has he any idea of what he is doing with such statements? Hello Armin,
Yes I can agree with the change in the statement the way you put it.

Sergio already had to admit, that he only had 46 hours of lesson (or a little bit more) - months of training??? This is quite a remarkable statement for him to suggest he learned an entire system in that amount of time so is it correct at 46 hours or 46 months or 4,600 hours becasue if it's only 46 hours then that is truly amazing.I have a lot of students around the world. Some of them are Wing Chun masters, too. I don´t controll them, they are free and independent.Hello GM Hoffmann,
Is Sifu Iadarola your disciple in Chi Sim Weng Chun?

[Andreas Hoffman]

Hello Armin and Cang Long,

in our weng chun family tradition we don´t separate in disciples and students. In China everybody who liked to learn weng chun went thru the "Bai Si".

Again, we are not a cult. My students/disciples are according our family tradition free and responsible for themselves.

Also if a weng chun disciple/student wants to Bai Si to another master too, he can do it freely.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Here is a statement from one of my long time student and Sifu Stefan Reis (13 years weng chun with me). Maybe Armin can translate:


Bevor sich hier einige seltsamen Eindrücke erhärten, will ich doch auch mal einen Kommentar loswerden:

Ich , und ich denke ich kann hier auch für meine Kollegen sprechen, die das Weng Chun schon seit vielen vielen Jahren lieben, üben und unterrichten, sprechen, finde nicht , dass das Weng Chun " besser " ist als andere Kampfkünste.

Ich hatte vor vielen Jahren die auch mal Ving Tsun Trainiert und kann für mich sagen, dass mich das Weng Chun mehr anspricht, als Ving Tsun ( egal jetzt mal mit welcher Schreibweise). Daraus kann ich jedoch in keiner Weise einen Anspruch ableiten, dass dies für andere Menschen auch so sein muss ! Es kommt auf den Menschen an. Nicht jede KK für Jeden Menschen ansprechend ist. So ist es schön und gut, dass es viele KK´s gibt, sodass jeder eine Ihm entsprechende finden und üben kann.

Serio Ladarola, der ja nun auch zu unserer Familie hinzugestoßen ist, hat eine, nunja "etwas eigene Art" der Öfffentlichkeitsarbeit und Ausdrucksweise, die sicherlich auch aus seinen Vorerfahrungen und seinem Werdegang heraus entstanden ist. Ich kennen keinen meiner Kollegen, die sich in der Art abfällig über andere Stile äußern - alles venünftige Menschen.

Zu den geschichtlichen Hintergründen: Wer Wann Wo mit Wem Was Warum und Wie getan, geredet oder gegessen hat ist heute wohl kaum zweifelsfrei festzustellen. Es gibt Überlieferungen, schriftliche und mündliche Quellen usw.... aber mal ehrlich: was soll es bringen, sich darüber zu entzweien?
Ich achte und ehre meinen Lehrer und Meister, dessen Lehrer und alle unsere Vorfahren, doch sehe in erster Linie mal das "Heute": Weng Chun ist ungeachtet eventueller Verknüpfungen in der Vergangenheit ein Stil der sich fundamental von Ving Chun ( alle Schreibweisen ) unterscheidet. Ich sehe genausoviel Ähnlichkeiten zu *ing *ung, wie zu andern Süd-Chinesischen Kampfstilen, aber auch genausoviel Unterschiede ( eher mehr). Nur oberflächlich betrachtet sehen einige Übungen ähnlich aus - und selbst das nur am Rande. Wohlgemerkt - ich meine nicht. dass es desshalb "Besser", "Wahrer" oder sonstwas ist...eben nur sehr verschieden. Wenn man davon aus geht, dass es gemeinsame Wurzeln gibt, bzw. dass das *ing *ung aus dem Weng Chun heraus entstanden ist ( wofür es durchaus Anhaltspunkte gibt ), dann kann dass nicht heißen, dass das eine automazisch dem anderen Überlegen ist, sondern dann ist doch vielmehr bedeutend, dass es sich heute ( Nach vielen Jahren der "Auseinanderentwicklung") um zwei verschiedene Stile handelt.

Man kann sich ja auch einfach mit Respekt und Achtung begegnen - meine Meinung.

Ach Ja Wichtig: Weng Chun kann nicht nur von "besonderen" Schülern erlernt werden. Es ist nicht so dass *ing *ung für die Masse und das Weng Chun nur für die besonders begabten, interessierte, fleißigen usw.. geeignet ist. Es gibt eine Menge Weng Chun Lehrer und Meister, die dies in jahrelanger Unterrichtspraxis gezeigt haben. Ich persönlich bin immer besonders stolz und froh, wenn sich ein "nur durchschnittlich" begabter Schüler, ein John from the Street sozusagen, durch fleiß und gutes Training positiv entwickelt und das Beste aus sich herausholt.

Grüße

Stefan Reis
- seit 13 Jahren Schüler von GM Andreas Hoffmann, Schulleiter in Wiesbaden -

[Armin]

Hello GM Andreas Hoffmann,

yes, I will translate the text - just give me a 'second'. ;)


Armin.

[Armin]

Ok, here we are.

As being the on who started this thread, I felt the obligation to translate this text. Please remember: the translation was done in a very short time. I tried to catch the spirit of the words - not the words itself.

If you find any orthographical mistakes - you can keep them to yourself. ;)

Before some strange impressions are getting stronger, I will give you my commentary:

I don’t believe thant Weng Chun ist ‘better’ than any other martial art – and I think I can speak for my colleagues who love, train and teach Weng Chun for many years, too.

I did train Ving Tsun a lot of years ago and I can say that Weng Chun is more appealing to me personally than Ving Tsun. But in no way do I claim, that this has to be the same for other people! It depends on the human. Not every martial art is appealing to every human. It’s allright and fine, that there are so many martial art systems, making it possible for every one to find his own.

Sergio Idarola, who came to our family, has his own way of doing public relations and his own kind of expressing things – that surely develloped from his experience and his curriculum vitae. None of my colleagues expresses his thoughts about other martial art systems that disapproving.

To the historical background: who, when, where did/talked/eat with who, what, why and how – cannot be found out today without a doubt. There are traditions, written and oral sources, and so on … but to be honest: why should we argue over that? I honour my teacher and master, his teachers and all of our ancestors – but I do see the present in the first. Weng Chun is a system, that differs fundamentally form Ving Tsun, regardless of connections in the past to Ving Tsun. I see as many similarities with Ving Tsun and to other southern China based martial art systems, as I see differences (in fact there are more differences). Besides – Exercises do look the same only on the surface. But remember – I don’t mean that it is ‘better’, ‘more true’ or something else because of this – it simply is different. If you belive that there are the same roots, or that Ving Tsun came out of Weng Chun (there are some facts pointing to that), that surely cannot mean, that one is superior to the other, but instead it means, that there are two different systems (after all these year of ‘develloping apart’).

But you can meet with respect and regard, etiher – my opinion.

Oh yes, important: Weng Chun is not for ‘special’ students only. Ving Tsun ain’t for the masses only and Weng Chun ain't only for the talented, interested, diligent, and so on. There are a lot of Weng Chun teachers and masters, who proved that in years of teaching. Personally, I am especially proud and happy, when an ‘average student’, a John form the street, devellops in a positive way due to diligence and good training and gets the best out of himself.

Greetings
Stefan
- for 13 years student of GM Andreas Hoffmann, trainer in Wiesbaden –

IMHO the text is very fair and puts the eye of the reader to the important points - working together with respect and regard.


Armin.

[Grande Puffo]

Hi to all,
being one of the many italian people involved directly in this situation, I Feel to appreciate the Reply of all people to this post.
To Armin that translated the text, Sifu Stefan Reis having done his text, and of course GM Hoffmann with his simple direct and compassionate answer.
I feel anyone is doing his action from the best he can;
so I'll not morally judge my Dai Sifu for what he had done (and whose skills are out of doubt) but with more stability I'll keep going through these time, me and my Friends.
Thanks a lot
Silvano

[lob]

Hi to everybody

I've been quite involved in this affair too, but on the other side of the barricade.
If you guys could read all that was said on the main italian martial forum about this!!
Every italian IWKA guy seemed to be deeply proud of Iadarola's behaviour and confident in his future plans.
They accepted without any criticism his statement about a supposed Wing's lackness of efficiency on the ground and therefore plauded the introduction of BJJ in the technical programs.
Then it was Weng Chun time to prove the complete ineffectiveness and uselessness of Wing Gongfu, which was only, according to Iadarola, just a tiny and corrupted part of the mother style Weng.
The Wing programs were therefore said to be completed in just 6 years afterwhich the study of Weng should have been started.
At this point of the story a tiny tiny shadow of doubt arose in the sharpest IWKA minds.
I added my two cents in raising dust starting to speak very clearly in the italian forum, just well before this point.
I also got insults and menaces for this from a couple of italian IWKA teachers.
I put questions to GM Hoffman too:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1283

sparing him the shock to know that Iadarola stated in one of his stages in Holland that he was the last of the only three men in the world to have completed Weng Chun and that he did this in 6 months.......

http://www.forumartimarziali.com/forum/index.php?topic=6721.0

OK, now the IWKA italian branch is collapsed. I wonder if all the italian sifu and students who plauded the introduction of Weng in their course of Wing study will follow that way.
In this case they will need the help of GM Hoffman.
In the opposite case, it will be the clear proof of the oddity of the human mind.....not to say that in other words..
I wish good luck and good job to GM Hoffman who was the less conscious and informed of all this mess.
I hope so, at least ;-)

[Cang Long]

Greetings Grande Puffo and lob,
It is always good to hear from those directly involved in the situation thank you for taking the time to share your insights. The coming days months and even years will be very interesting to watch unfold. Lets hope things work out best for everyone involved.

[lob]

Hi to everybody,
a new chapter is going to be added to this saga.
A new DVD called something like "Wing Tjun is Weng Chun" seems to be ready for issue.
Some deeply established connections between Wing and Weng are outlined in it.
Moreover, GM Hoffman is said to give his unconditional support to Sifu Iadarola about this topic, "although he must have had some good reasons to make different statements about".
All this will be evident watching the DVD.
This is what a IWKA source stated in the italian forum recently.

http://www.forumartimarziali.com/forum/index.php?topic=8205.0
............................
:eek: :confused: :rolleyes:

[lob]

This is the DVD:

http://www.wingtjun.nl/nav.php?nav=shop&sub=1

[lob]

Nothing to say from any side?
mmmhhhhh.......:rolleyes:

[Armin]

Hi lob,

I watched the trailer of the DVD. Well, what could I state, without having seen the whole DVD?

Sergio Iadarola has shown several times, that he is easy to deceive - Leung Ting being the last closed door student of Yip Man, Leung Ting being the only real successor of Yip Man, Leung Ting teaching authentic Ving Tsun/Wing Tsun ...

At the moment, he is doing, what he did all the time: talking without reflection, putting something normal on a heavenly layer. Before, Leung Ting WT was the best system ever in the world, now it's Chi Sim, what will follow???

I'm sorry if I insult you (being a WT-follower). Look, you should have been starting to think already, when Sergio came up with 'groundfighting not being part of the art'. Ving Tsun is a complete system (or it is meant to be). Why going into Brazilian JJ for some ground-techniques?

Sergio tells that he teaches concepts or principles or whatever. In reality, he sells techniques. A technique for this and a technique for that. If he does this, I'll do that. Oh, damned, I don't know what to do if he uses lock # 27! Got to search somewhere else for that!

But the answer should be lying within the system itself - and to be honest: Leung Ting WT has not one single conceptional answer to any given single question. They use centerline? Ridicoules - they invented their own kind of centerline!

Sergio found the truth in one point: Leung Ting and Keith Kernspecht know 'real Ving Tsun' (to a certain amount) - but they don't teach it (maybe because they now to less to sell)! And what he bought, was just another kind of 'chinese jiu jitsu' with flavours of some other systems.


Armin.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Lob,

"weng chun is wing chun" was and is a fact not only for the weng chun family. The DVD will help to see the connections more clear. Also I included old footage from GM Wai Yan, GM Pak Cheung and GM Tang Yick.

Posted by Cang Long:

I will say that it was interesting to hear Chan Gou Ji being from the Lueng Jan/Yip Man Lineage relate his understanding of Wing Chun's origins.

He specifically mentions that Shaolin monks were taught kung fu at the Fujian Monastery.

He mentions the year in which the temple was burned down as being 1795.

Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.

Naturally it is interesting to hear another source corroborate the findings of the Ving tsun Museum because previous to hearing this only Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Weng/Wing Chun were credited with making mention of the evidence that Weng/Wing Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of Southern Shaolin.

[BennyMeng]

I'm preparing for a back-to-back trip to Rio and China so I don't have time to reply on this thread but I will share the latest information when I get back, after Thanksgiving.

[lob]

GM Hoffman, many don't understand yet:

If "Weng Chun is Wing Chun" is a fact for the Weng Chun family, what about the previous statements of Stefan Reis?

Weng Chun is a system, that differs fundamentally form Ving Tsun, regardless of connections in the past to Ving Tsun. I see as many similarities with Ving Tsun and to other southern China based martial art systems, as I see differences (in fact there are more differences)But remember – I don’t mean that it is ‘better’, ‘more true’ or something else because of this – it simply is different. If you belive that there are the same roots, or that Ving Tsun came out of Weng Chun (there are some facts pointing to that), that surely cannot mean, that one is superior to the other, but instead it means, that there are two different systems (after all these year of ‘develloping apart’).

May be you mean that once upon a time may be Weng was Wing but....what about right now?

Why all this effort trying to demonstrate any connection?
Is it really so important for the Weng family?
If yes, why?
If not, what's the aim of the DVD?

[ging er]

hello Armin
to me this statement merely authenticates the belief a highly energised man has in what he considers to be a superior fighting system. I don't read any attempts to play down any historical figures alive or passed on that warrants any of your very public inspection.

[Armin]

Hi ging er,

if you knew me, you would know, that I am a very calm person, for sure.

I think, what you write is aiming at the text Sergio Iadarola wrote, correct?

I don't know, if you you knwo "the whole story" - the only thing I see, is a man, trying to sell out a martial art. Nothing else. Sergio doesn't state his believes - he does marketing.


Armin.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Lob,

My responsibility as the successor of my weng chun family is to make known the history, philosophy and art of our ancestors.
For late Grandmaster Wai Yan and late Grandmaster Chu Chung Man Wing Chun and Weng Chun are the same art. For them the original name was Weng Chun. I respect history of other wing/weng families but for sure I will tell the view of our family.

Interesting for me is that the masters I met in China from GM Chan Wah Shun´s lineage all used Weng Chun and our weng chun history.
Gm Yuen kay Shan lineage used Wing Chun but also they say that they learned from Weng Chun Grandmaster Fung Siu Ching.

Let us enjoy today the rich history of our ancestors and the different families. We don´t need to argue who is right. Let us share and learn from each other. Like I do for example with GM Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun practitioner Rene Ritchie since over ten years or with Hung Gar Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling even for over 20 years.

Sifu Stefan Reis and Wing Tjun Sifu Sergio Iadarola can speak for themselves and their experience but they cannot speak for the weng chun family because they didn´t meet and learn from the Grandmasters and they don´t have complete weng chun knowledge. Like you Lob, you are not speaking for GM Leung Ting Wing Tsun you are speaking for yourself.

So, I´m looking forward to hear Master Benny Meng´s view and let me use this opportunity to say thank you to Master Benny Meng and his Ving Tsun Museum´s team for their great hospitality they always gave to me during my seminars there.

[ging er]

Hello Armin
it is in context to the statement you raised with Sifu Iadarola. I can't understand how anyone with a problem with any individual has to air their grievances in public. Why not raise these questions to the person directly instead of in a forum that by nature poses questions instead of answering them? Have you personally invited Mr Iadarola to answer your accusations before you bring them to the public forum? it seems you have the upper edge of marketing by using it as a tool to discredit someone in public without giving them the chance to resolve any differences in private. why not spend your energy on raising questions that benefit the readers here such as me. People who are interested in the Chin sim Weng Chun lineage. I am sure you have a more qualified insight into Weng Chun than I do, and it is your knowledge that I am interested in.

[Armin]

Hi ging er,

Have you personally invited Mr Iadarola to answer your accusations before you bring them to the public forum?
Indeed, he was 'invited' several times in different german forums, where students of his promissed to pass on the answers and get a statement.

Guess what the answer was?

it seems you have the upper edge of marketing by using it as a tool to discredit someone in public without giving them the chance to resolve any differences in private.
Another thougth: Why should I ask Sergio Iadarola in private - if he was the one going into public with his statements? If he had written a letter to me or something like that, it would have been all in private. But he was the one putting that stuff onto his public homepage. I think, that gives me the right, to discuss this topic in public, correct?

And I don't use marketing. What I write here, is my own personal - and private - view. Isn't there something like a human right, to tell his view in public? Sergio has this right, too. And I have the right, to say that his view is worthless. So what?

why not spend your energy on raising questions that benefit the readers here such as me. People who are interested in the Chin sim Weng Chun lineage. I am sure you have a more qualified insight into Weng Chun than I do, and it is your knowledge that I am interested in.
Well, see - I'm not interested in Chi Sim, or else I would be a student of GM Andreas Hoffmann or of one of his students. ;)

The modern day Ving Tsun (the Yip Man Ving Tsun and all the other branches) don't trace back their roots to chi sim-family, but to the hung fa yi-family. There's enough proof of that, oral and written.

But that's not the point in this discussion. At first, Leung Ting WT was the highest martial art in the world. Last year, Sergio met GM Andreas (for the first time, btw) and suddenly, he claims being a student of GM Andreas for more than 3 years. And he already was a disciple!

And again he dishonors his roots and his new family. WT is only good enough for 'Jack on the street', Chi Sim is only for the ones who go further (or pay better instead). If I were a chi sim-teacher or -student, that statement would hit me like a slap in the face!!!

If you want my knowledge, well, we have to meet in the yip man-section. This here is merely showing good sense.


Armin.

[lob]

[i]Originally posted by Andreas Hoffman
.........
Let us enjoy today the rich history of our ancestors and the different families. We don´t need to argue who is right. Let us share and learn from each other.

Dear GM Hoffman, this is actually a very noble purpose in itself: but you seem to forget that all this dust was raised because someone very close to you repeatedly stated, in various forms and manners, his own truth about a certain descent and superiority. You never clearly denied this person.

Sifu Stefan Reis and Wing Tjun Sifu Sergio Iadarola can speak for themselves and their experience but they cannot speak for the weng chun family because they didn´t meet and learn from the Grandmasters and they don´t have complete weng chun knowledge.

Sifu Iadarola spoke about superiority, Sifu Reis spoke about diversity.
Though they are two of your closest collaborators, you regularly seem to take your distances just when their statements produce undesired effects.
Most of all, it was just you to quote Sifu Reis statement on this topic!
This is adding confusion over confusion for the many who would like to hear a clear answer from you.
They start talking about having a foot in both camps, here in Italy.

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Lob,

for us the weng chun family it was not our intention to claim superiority with sharing historic evidence. Thank you for clearing up this point. I will try to make it more clear in future.

It is really my wish what I wrote before:

Let us enjoy today the rich history of our ancestors and the different families. We don´t need to argue who is right. Let us share and learn from each other.

Wing Chun is not the only sister arts of Weng Chun. Weng Chun also shares historic roots with Hung Gar, Dragon Style, Chu Gar etc.

[lob]

Dear GM Hoffman,

may I ask you what is the meaning of your assertion according to which the time wouldn't be yet ripe for the release of the DVD?

[lob]

OK, I'll try to argue:
may be because Dai Sifu Sergio Iadarola is no more a Sifu Master of the International Weng Chun Kung Fu association? :rolleyes:

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Lob,

Sifu Sergio Iadarola was never a Sifu Master in Weng Chun, he is a Sifu in Wing tjun.

I´m celebrating christmas and Happy New year here in Hongkong and I wish you all Merry Christmas and A Happy New Year 2006

In January I´m back again.

[lob]

OK, let's put it in these terms for the moment :rolleyes:
Anyway, we haven't ever had any doubt about. :)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you, GM Hoffman :)