Chan Wah Shun Vs Wong Fei Hung

[Hungman]

Here is the true story about fight between the Wing Chun Grangmaster Chan Wah-Shun and the Hung Ga Grandmaster Wong Fei Hung.-- told by Chan Guo Ji (the grandson of Chan Wah Shun)

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm



The translation...by Chris

"A (martial) challenge with Wong Fei Hung

Chan Guo Ji said, according to his family's records, Chan Wah-Shun and Wong Fei Hung once tested each other's martial skills, which is an interesting story. One day, Wong Fei Hung took two of his students to find Leung Jan for a (martial) match, and at the time the rules were to first test Bridge Hands. Leung Jan was somewhat small, and felt that it would be hard for him to wind at Bridge Hands. Moreover, Wong Fei Hung didn't know Leung Jan, so Leung Jan asked Chan Wah Shun to take his place at Pressing Bridges. Chan Wah Shun used his great strength (literally: 9 oxen and 2 tiger's strength) to push down Wong Fei Hung's Bridge. After that, it was time to test Hand Skills. Chan Wah Shun then used the connected palm Pair of Flying Butterflies to defeat Wong Fei Hung's LoHan 18 Palm style Barring the Door. As Chan Guo Ji told this story, he also demonstrated the Butterfly Palm technique, saying that by using this technique you can attack an opponenent at a distance. Three months later, Chan Wah Shun used his 6.5 Staff to defeat Wong Fei Hung's BaGua staff. Only after this (martial) encounter, did Wong Fei Hung discover that it was not Leung Jan after all...but Chan Wah Shun. And as a result of these two contests, Chan's fame grew. Chan Guo Ji said, "All of these stories are carefully documented. The previous generations not only challenged one another, but also elevated their spirit to a level that should inspire (today's students)."

[wengshunkuen]

Thank you Hungman for a magnificent story, no matter if it is true or not. I'm a sucker for these kind of tales(-;

But does anybody know who the current Grandmaster/clanleader is in Ng Chung So's lineage? It is obvious that, when Chan Wah Shun died, it was Ng who took over the school. But who came after him? And who is the leader of that particular branch/lineage today? I have been wondering about this question for some time without finding any answers. Thanks in advance.

Respect to all,

[Hungman]

Originally posted by wengshunkuen
Thank you Hungman for a magnificent story, no matter if it is true or not. I'm a sucker for these kind of tales(-;

But does anybody know who the current Grandmaster/clanleader is in Ng Chung So's lineage? It is obvious that, when Chan Wah Shun died, it was Ng who took over the school. But who came after him? And who is the leader of that particular branch/lineage today? I have been wondering about this question for some time without finding any answers. Thanks in advance.

Respect to all,


Hi wengshunkuen
Here is his story -- "Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage"

1. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Chan Yui Min (son) > Chan Ga Lim (grandson) > Chan Gou Ji (great grand son)

2. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Ng Chung So (student) > Yip Man (student)




P.S. Now that we know a little more about Chan Wah Shun and the Hung Ga Grandmaster Wong Fei Hung. Can Master Benny Meng or anybody translate this story?

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior??? :D

Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.

But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior??? :D

Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.

But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.

Sounds like the days back in the 50's when The Bronx Bull Jake LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson 3 months in a row, because there was no one else to fight against...

JR

[Hungman]

Hi Armin
This one is for you! "Hung Ga Kung Fu"


http://mail.cssh.tpc.edu.tw/~t479/file/BBB.WMV

[Hungman]

History and origins of Hung Gar, like most of the other Chinese Martial Arts is full of legends, myths and contradictions without much fact or actual recorded historical evidence which can fully support many of the historical stories floating around today. The earlier history of Hung Gar, especially before Wong Fei Hung is somewhat ambiguous and confusing. This is largely due to much of the history being passed down verbally from generation to generation, master to student and so on. Passing on much of the history orally has of course led to more than one version of story and many contradictions. Through out centuries some of these stories have often changed, modified and at times way over execrated. The gaps between actual historical facts and evidence has lead people to change and make up their own history to fill in these gaps.

There are, however, some historical evidence and facts which sheds light to the origins and development of Hung Gar gungfu through time. Although the earlier history of Hung Gar is still not as clear as one would expect or want, there are on going efforts and research which may in the future clarify some of the historical contradictions and legends.

Most widely accepted version, regarding the origins of Hung Gar tells us that history of Hung Gar begins during the 17th century in southern China. Hung Gar is said to have its origins in the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien Province of Southern China.

According to the legends, the actual story of Hung Gar style begins with the Shaolin monk Gee Seen Sim See during a time of turmoil and strife when China was under the rule of Ch'ing dynasty (Manchu). The Manchurian conquest and rule( 1644-1911) of China was a deeply humiliating experience for the Chinese. The Manchus, indeed, made things harder for themselves, as foreign rulers, with their decree that Chinese men would have to adopt Manchu costumes (including the infamous "queue"). This provoked violent Chinese popular resistance and helped the "Southern Ming" princes rally forces against the Manchu's for almost two decades.

It is said that Gee Seen Sim See was a monk at the Northern Shaolin Temple. When the Ching troops burned down the Northern temple, the monk Gee Seen amongst others managed to escape.Gee Seen Sim See flea to the Fukien province of China where he is said to have eventually became the abbot of Southern Shaolin temple and trained many people in the art of shaolin gung fu, including non-budhist monks who were known as shaolin layman disciples. It is also said that Gee Seen supported the anti-ching movement and took part in the activities to overthrow the Manchu government

According to the legend it was during this time when a young patriot named Hung Hei Goon took refuge at the Southern Shaolin Temple to hide from the Manchu officials. Legend has it that Hung Hei Goon trained under Gee Seen Sim See and eventually became his top disciple. Hung Hei Goon is widely considered as the founder of Hung Gar.

Hung Hei Goon disliked the Ch'ing rule like many other Chinese and spent most of his life fighting to over throw the Ch'ing and restore the Ming. Hung's real surname was CHU,however due to being one of the most wanted rebels of his time, he later changed his name to Hung to hide his real identity from the Ch'ing government. He chose the name Hung as a tribute to the first Ming Emperor Hung Mo(Hong Wu) who is widely considered as one of the best, if not the best emperor in the history of China.

The Ch'ing government well aware of what was happening at the Southern Shaolin temple, felt threatened by shaolin temple and its activities. They planed a full scale attack and send imperial troops to destroy the temple and kill all the monks and rebels. The monks were out numbered largely and did not stand a chance against the army, the Shaolin temple was burned down to the ground. Hung Hei Goon and Gee Sim, Luk Ah Choy as well as some others managed to survive the attack and fled to the southern parts of China. These man swore to spread the art of shaolin and fight to "overthrow the Chi'ng, restore the Ming".

At the time Gung fu training was banned by the Manchus. So Hung Hei Goon taught his art secretly at the Big Buddha Temple in Kwungtung, southern China. Once the ban was lifted, he began teaching openly and set up a school in Fa city of Kwungtung province. He named his art Hung Gar Kuen (Hung family Fist), mainly to hide its shaolin connections from the Manchus.

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

thanks for the link! Are you sure, that this was Hung Ga? Look at their belts and what they wear at their ankles - sure, this weren't the hell's angels??? :eek: :D :D

No, really, I like Hung Ga. It looks full of energy and very powerful.


Armin.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior??? :D

Hi Armin
For all our scary ideas about the "Ving Tsun is most superior", you can read the rest of this exciting story below.

IWKA is heavily influenced by Weng Chun and is totally superior to the Leung Ting system. Over the last few months I have proved that time and time again in theory and practice.-- Dai Sifu Iadarola



Originally posted by Armin
Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.


In the bar you might be surprised to find out who Wong Fei Hung is. A "drunken boxing" master, that would give him more power to fight against Chan Wah Shun.




Originally posted by Armin
But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.


According to Chan Gou Ji (the great grandson--the gate keeper of Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage) said, "All of these stories are carefully documented." But the Hung Ga people would rather say it this way--" Is there any way to know if such things really happened--or if they're just lies, confusion, or misunderstandings?"


HM

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

take a second look - IWKA is only totally superior. I said, Ving Tsun is most superior!!! :D :D :D

In the bar you might be surprised to find out who Wong Fei Hung is. A "drunken boxing" master, that would give him more power to fight against Chan Wah Shun.
You know that economy-of-motion-thing!? While he would be drinking his wine out of a cup - Chan Wah Shun would be drinking out of the pitcher, thus getting drunk first!

But either way, both of 'em will have a bad headache the next day and no recollection of what happende the other night. :D :D :D

According to Chan Gou Ji (the great grandson--the gate keeper of Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage) said, "All of these stories are carefully documented." But the Hung Ga people would rather say it this way--" Is there any way to know if such things really happened--or if they're just lies, confusion, or misunderstandings?"
Yes, of course they will say this and they are right. But you see, Wong Fei Hung is a hero - having been beaten in a fight would make him IMHO even more a hero, because it would show his 'human' side.

Everytime someone says, 'he wasn't beaten in one single fight', he puts someone on a higher level, taking away the fact, that this guy was (only) human, too. And it will diminish the 'worth' of the actions this person did for his country and his people. Understand, what I mean?


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Hungman,
Thank you for the links, not being able to translate Chinese to English I had to have it read for me so I won't attempt to translate the pages myself but it would be nice to get some more discussion from them if someone else would be kind enough to translate. I will say that it was interesting to hear Chan Gou Ji being from the Lueng Jan/Yip Man Lineage relate his understanding of Wing Chun's origins.

He specifically mentions that Shaolin monks were taught kung fu at the Fujian Monastery.

He mentions the year in which the temple was burned down as being 1795.

Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.

Naturally it is interesting to hear another source corroborate the findings of the Ving tsun Museum because previous to hearing this only Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Weng/Wing Chun were credited with making mention of the evidence that Weng/Wing Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of Southern Shaolin.

Ving Tsun Museum findings (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/step_forward_b.php)

Chan Gou Ji's story (http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm)

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

take a second look - IWKA is only totally superior. I said, Ving Tsun is most superior!!! :D :D :D


taking away the fact, that this guy was (only) human, too. And it will diminish the 'worth' of the actions this person did for his country and his people. Understand, what I mean?


Armin.


Hi Armin
I'm trying to understand U "what I mean?" :cool: ;) :p In the end, your interaction with the superhero "Dai Sifu Iadarola" will come down to what you do with your mind.:frog: :D



Originally posted by Cang Long
Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.


Hi Cang Long
Thank you for your info as well, and I hope Master Benny Meng or anybody can translate this story for us soon.


HM

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin

You know that economy-of-motion-thing!?

Hi Armin
"But wait a minute," I hear someone saying. "He only had 46 hours of lesson of training, and that already made him a Dai Sifu in the ving tsun world"

Whoever believes in "economy-of-motion-thing" is indeed a Dai Sifu. Again, a living spiritual being who is becoming more and more perfect everyday.


HM


Sergio already had to admit, that he only had 46 hours of lesson (or a little bit more) - months of training???

[Cang Long]

Hi Cang Long
Thank you for your info as well, and I hope Master Benny Meng or anybody can translate this story for us soon.
Hungman,
Greetings and thank you for all that you contribute, I agree hole heartedly history is very important not only for preserving the entire art/science as it was intended but also being able to differentiate facts from myth will enable people to empower themselves with knowledge that is correct. For instance the fact that so many people argue that Weng Chun is not related to Wing Chun when clearly we see that is not the case and by knowing this it can cause people to look more deeply in to the principles of boh art/science to find the true connections moving them away from the typical surface level thinking that holds back so many practitioners.

As in all chan practicies without understanding of history what ever understanding a person did have would be incomplete with out the understanding of all facets of the subject matter at hand. The paragraph paraphrased in my last post connects 3 different families to one story and one particular time in history that is note worthy and relavent to all practitioners of each and every lineage connected to those families as well as all practitioners taking up the art/science after this information is revealed. Enjoy and like you say I look forward to someone translating the entire page for us to share and discuss further.

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

again, please read carefully - it's 'economy of motion', not 'economy of learning'. Or otherwise it would make no sense to put everything into 12 different student-programs and 12 different technician-programs. But still, this is 'economy of teaching' - making the most possible money with showing/teaching the least possible. Small amount of energy - huge amount of gain! :eek: ;) :D

And luckily enough - there's no interaction with Sergio from my side, I just keep myself informed. There's more going on over here than this - this may be interesting for you. To be honest, I prefer the argues of the different students of Wong Shun Leung. There you can see, how dirty tricks really work. Taping phone-calls, sending e-mails under alias, taking everything the other side says and put the words in a way together, that there's a totally different sense, and so on.

Meanwhile, to most of the Germans, Sergio Iadarola is only a name. He had a strong impact at the beginning, when he claimed to be the only one who learned 'everything' from Leung Ting - lots of master-degrees and technician-degrees followed him. And it took only half a year for them, to leave their new sifu and everything fell apart again.

If you like, I can give you a more detailed overview of what happened here, say for the last four or five years - that'll be a very long post!


Armin.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

again, please read carefully - it's 'economy of motion', not 'economy of learning'. Or otherwise it would make no sense to put everything into 12 different student-programs and 12 different technician-programs. But still, this is 'economy of teaching' - making the most possible money with showing/teaching the least possible. Small amount of energy - huge amount of gain! :eek: ;) :D


Hi Armin
I don't know if that would make any sense to you or not, at least Dai Sifu Sergio had a pleasant experience.

Due to the simple fact that I have been fortunate to have access to the same source as GGM Yip man had access to when he created his personal interpretation of Ving Tsun with the big difference being that I had one hundred percent access and according to the latest research GGM Yip man probably did not.

Confused?



Originally posted by Armin
And luckily enough - there's no interaction with Sergio from my side, I just keep myself informed. There's more going on over here than this - this may be interesting for you. To be honest, I prefer the argues of the different students of Wong Shun Leung. There you can see, how dirty tricks really work. Taping phone-calls, sending e-mails under alias, taking everything the other side says and put the words in a way together, that there's a totally different sense, and so on.


Since we cannot know all that is to be known of everything, we ought to know a little about everything.

So that's exactly the reason we need IWKA Wing Tjun for the average person, because it's these people who represent our biggest market!!!!!!!



Originally posted by Armin
Meanwhile, to most of the Germans, Sergio Iadarola is only a name. He had a strong impact at the beginning, when he claimed to be the only one who learned 'everything' from Leung Ting - lots of master-degrees and technician-degrees followed him. And it took only half a year for them, to leave their new sifu and everything fell apart again.


It is no good to try to stop knowledge from going forward. And I wish he could do much better in future.




Originally posted by Armin
If you like, I can give you a more detailed overview of what happened here, say for the last four or five years - that'll be a very long post!


Armin.

LOL... I would never say "NO" to Santa Claus.;) :p


HM

[Hungman]

Chan Wah-Shun (Chen Huashun) originally worked as a moneychanger (someone licensed to convert currency denominations) and was hence known by the nickname Jiao Chin Wah (Zhaoqian Hua, Moneychanger Wah). His stall was located in the marketplace close to Leung Jan's pharmacy and
from time to time he would catch glimpses of the famous doctor teaching Wing Chun Kuen. Eventually, Chan Wah-Shun was able to secure training under Leung Jan and went on to become one of his most prized students, winning many challenge fights, earning the nickname Ngau Ching Wah (Niujing Hua, Bull Wah).
Chan Wah-Shun later gave up the money changing business to work as an osteopath. He was said to have begun teaching Wing Chun in the late 1800s, in some accounts as early as 1877 (the pulp novel, Martial World Orthodox Systems: Wing Chun suggesting that when Leung Jan passed away, Chan Wah-Shun carried on the instruction of junior students such as Ng Siu-Lo and Ng Jung-So) and by the 1910s, he was, according to Yip Man traditions, reportedly teaching out of the Ancestral Temple of the Yip family in Foshan's Song Yuan (Mulberry Gardens).
During his career, which according to Yip traditions spanned 36 years, he reportedly trained 16 disciples. The earliest of these disciples included the Ng brothers, Siu-Lo and Chung-So, as well as
Lui Yiu-Chai, Ngau Hong, and his own son, Chan Yiu-Min (and Yiu-Min's wife Lai Miu-Hin, although whether or not she was formally counted as one of the disciples is unknown). Other students were said to include Ho Han-Lui (in alternate accounts listed as a student of Leung Jan), Lee Jit-Man,
Ngau Jaw-Ting, Lai Hao-Po (in alternate accounts listed as a student of Fung Siu-Ching), Chan Hung-Dai, Chan Sik-Hao and sometimes Yiu Choi (more often listed as a student of Ng Jung-So). Shortly before his retirement, Chan Wah-Shun accepted his final disciples, Lai Hip-Chi and Yip Man.
In 1911, Chan Wah-Shun, known by then as Wah Gung (Hua Gong, Grandfather Wah) retired from teaching (according to Pan Nam system accounts, suffering a stroke and becoming partially paralyzed) and returned to his home village in Shunde county where he passed away two years later.
Notes: Compiled from oral and written accounts of Yip Man and Ng Jung-So Wing Chun Kuen and
Chan Yiu-Min (incl. Pan Nam) Weng Chun Kuen, Foshan Jing Wu Association, and New Martial Hero and Leung's Publications.

[Hungman]

Leung Jan 梁贊


his son Leung Bik 梁壁 or 梁碧
his son Leung Chun 梁春
his son Leung Go 梁高
his son Leung Shing 梁成


known students

Woodman Wah 木人華, 李華
Chan Wah-shun 陳華順
Pork Butcher Kwai 豬肉桂
Chan Sek-hou 陳錫候
Tse Leung 謝樑
Mok Wah 莫華
Mei Siu-lo 眉少魯
Ho Hon-lu 何漢侶
Chan Cheung-lone 陳檣農

[Hungman]

The Hung Gar curriculum that Wong Fei-Hung learned from his father comprised Single Hard Fist, Double Hard Fist, Taming the Tiger Fist 伏虎拳, Mother & Son Butterfly Knives 子母雙刀, Angry Tiger Fist, Fifth Brother Eight Trigram Pole 五郎八卦棍, Flying Hook, and Black Tiger Fist 黑虎拳. Wong distilled his father's empty-hand material along with the material he learned from other masters into the "pillars" of Hung Gar, four empty-hand routines that constitute the core of Hung Gar instruction in the Wong Fei-Hung lineage:


"工" Character Taming the Tiger Fist 工字伏虎拳


The long routine Taming the Tiger trains the student in the basic techniques of Hung Gar while building endurance. It is said to go at least as far back as Jee Sin, who is said to have taught Taming the Tiger—or at least an early version of it—to both Hung Hei-Gun and Luk Ah-Choi.



Tiger Crane Paired Form Fist 虎鶴雙形拳


Tiger Crane builds on Taming the Tiger, adding "vocabulary" to the Hung Gar practitioner's repertoire. Wong Fei-Hung choreographed the version of Tiger Crane handed down in the lineages that descend from him. He is said to have added to Tiger Crane the bridge hand techniques and rooting of the master Tit Kiu Saam as well as long arm techniques, attributed variously to the Fut Gar, Luohan, and Lama styles. Tiger Crane Paired Form routines from outside Wong Fei-Hung Hung Gar still exist.



Five Animal Fist 五形拳/Five Animal Five Element Fist 五形五行拳


These routines serve as a bridge between the external force of Tiger Crane and the internal focus of Iron Wire. "Five Animals" (literally "Five Forms") refers to the characteristic Five Animals of the Southern Chinese martial arts: Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon. "Five Elements" refers to the five classical Chinese elements: Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, and Earth. The Hung Gar Five Animal Fist was choreographed by Wong Fei-Hung and expanded by Lam Sai-Wing 林世榮, a senior student and teaching assistant of Wong Fei-Hung, into the Five Animal Five Element Fist (also called the "Ten Form Fist"). In the Lam Sai-Wing branch of Hung Gar, the Five Animal Five Element Fist has largely, but not entirely, superseded the Five Animal Fist, which has become associated with Tang Fong and others who were no longer students when the Five Animal Five Element Fist was created.


Iron Wire Fist 鐵線拳


Iron Wire builds internal power and is attributed to the martial arts master Tit Kiu Saam 鐵橋三. Like Wong Fei-Hung's father Wong Kei-Ying, Tit Kiu Saam was one of the Ten Tigers of Canton. As a teenager, Wong Fei-Hung learned Iron Wire from Lam Fuk-Sing 林福成, a student of Tit Kiu Saam.


Wong Fei-Hung was known for his Fifth Brother Eight Trigram Pole 五郎八卦棍, which can be found in the curricula of both the Lam Sai-Wing and Tang Fong branches of Hung Gar, two of the major branches of the Wong Fei-Hung lineage, as can the Spring & Autumn Guandao 春秋大刀, and the Yiu Family Tiger Fork 瑤家大扒. Both branches also train the broadsword 刀, the butterfly knives 雙刀, the spear 槍, and even the fan 扇, but use different routines to do so. Mother & Son Butterfly Knives 子母雙刀 can still be found in the curriculum of the Tang Fong branch.

[Hungman]

Gee Sin Sim See

A legendary figure of Chinese Martial Arts and history, Gee Sin Sim See is said to have been a Shaolin monk who lived during the 17th century when China was under the rule of the Ching (Manchurian) government. There isnt really much historical information available Gee Sin Sim See and his legendary exploits. To a certain extent some even argue his very existence and his connection with the Southern Shaolin temple (Naam Siu Lam Ji).

According to the Shaolin legends, Gee Sin Sim see was a budhist monk at the Northern Shaolin temple of Honan province. He lived during a time of oppression, civil unrest and rebel activities against the Ching- Manchurian government. The manchurian invasion of China (1644) ended the golden era of Ming dynasty and established the Ching Dynasty. The manchurians brutal control of China and crule treatmen of the Chinese people (Hans) lead to violent Chinese popular resistance, rebel activities and formation of many underground /secret organisations who wanted to overthrow the Manchurian government and reinstate the prosperous Ming Dynasty. It is said that shaolin temple accomodated some of these rebels and even took part in some rebel activities against the Ching rule. In time, the Manchurians became concerned by Shaolin temples dealings with the rebels and felt threatened by its activities. Eventually, the Ching troops attacked the shaolin temple, killed most of the monks and destryoed the temple.

Legend has it that Gee Sin and some others managed to escape the destruction of the temple. It is also said that he was s one of the legendary Five Elders of Shaolin temple. Gee sin travelled to southern China and took refuge in a temple at the Fukien province. This temple was known as or became known as the famous Southern Shaolin temple. It is belived that Gee Sin became the head monk - abbot of the Southern Shaolin temple and continued teaching the art of shaolin gung fu openly as well as continuing to support the anti-ching movement. Gee sin trained many students at the southern temple including Hung Hei Goon who is credited as the founder of Hung Gar style. Hung Hei Goon is said to have been Gee sin's top disciple and best of the so called Shaolin's Ten Best. Allegedly Shaolin Ten Best were the top students of Gee Sin Sim See who followed and trained under Gee Sin for many years. Besides the top disciple Hung Hei Goon, Shaolin Ten best also included another legendary figure of Hung Gar, Luk Ah Choy.

Gee Sin's time in the southern temple ended with the attack of the Manchurian army and complete destruction of the southern shaolin temple. Once again, Gee Sin Sim See managed to survive the attack and escaped with many others. According to the legends, Gee Sin Sim See travelled through southern China and finally ended up at the what has now become known as the famous Red Boat Opera Troupe (Hung Syuhn Hei Baan). It is said that Gee Sin Sim See stayed with the Red Boat Opera Troupe, teaching gung fu and carrying on with his support for the anti-ching movement. According to some Hung Gar legends, Hung Gar was created on these red boats. It is also said that Gee Sin is associated with the ceration of Wing Chun style on the Red Boat Opera Troupes.




A New Chapter
The Red Boat Connection

Gee Sin and Yip Man -- Weng Chun, Wing Tsun


20.09.2005

Important statement by Dai-Sifu Iadarola

Over the last 6 months enormous positive changes have taken place within the IWKA; change of name, programme changes, change of the infrastructure and the completion of the roadmap for 2006.
Starting with the launch of the IWKA dvd ' The secret's out Wing tjun is Weng chun and Weng chun is Wing tjun' followed by an entirely new worldwide web presence more professional and more in line with the quality present within the association. Naturally the changes didn't go as smoothly as wished for but we are happy to announce that within most countries of the IWKA things are on track and going ahead at full speed.
Therefore I want to dedicate this letter especially to the Italian peninsula which because of several factors is the last to adopt these changes. Therefore I am happy to announce that I in person will from now on be the chief Italian instructor and will personally hold regular seminars every three months.

In 1987 I started Wing Chun in Amsterdam, the following years travelling through Europe studying under several instructors to learn the authentic Leung Ting Wing Tsun. Even teaching in Israel and serving as its chief instructor for the EWTO to achieve that aim. 1997 until 2001 is what I like to call my 'Hong Kong' period. In 1997 I travelled to Hong Kong for the first time with my Israeli student and friend Tomer Barzilai visiting and studying under various students of the late GGM Yip man. In 1998 I had the fortune of being accepted as a private student of GM Leung Ting becoming his favourite and closest student. In the following years I spent many months in Hong Kong getting private lessons and even going on holiday with the Grandmaster to Miami. Eventually finishing the whole unarmed GM Leung Ting system in 1999 and completing the weapons in 2001.

The people who have had such a close relationship with the Grandmaster and his art can be counted on one hand therefore I think it's incredible that several technicians of the IWKA are judging the steps the IWKA is taking for their benefit. I should surely know what I am doing being the only person in the world that finished the Leung Ting system and is deep into the successor lineage Weng Chun. If I have changed the Leung Ting system it's for a good reason.

Two things need to be very clear.

1. What is IWKA Wing Tjun?

2. Why do not just do Weng Chun and leave Wing Tjun if that is the original and superior system?

Let me clarify point one first. IWKA is heavily influenced by Weng Chun and is totally superior to the Leung Ting system. Over the last few months I have proved that time and time again in theory and practice. How is that possible? Due to the simple fact that I have been fortunate to have access to the same source as GGM Yip man had access to when he created his personal interpretation of Ving Tsun with the big difference being that I had one hundred percent access and according to the latest research GGM Yip man probably did not.

Confused?

GGM Yip man studied in Dai Duk Lan in the late fifties and early sixties under GM Chu Chung Man, GM Wai Yan and GM Tang Yick. GM Wai Yan's successor is GM Andreas Hoffmann who is the Sifu of Dai-Sifu Sergio Iadarola.

Another important detail is Weng Chun is just a different spelling for the same art. Did you know that the Weng Chun grandmasters used Wing Tsun as their western spelling of their art and GGM Yip Man (used) Ving Tsun after an important meeting in the late sixties.

Point two. Weng Chun is the latest western spelling to differentiate the successor lineage from the public versions and personal interpretations. Therefore it's very understandable that I don't want to give and teach the art to just everybody. Let's take a look at an example. To the average John on the street or housewife it doesn't matter if they learn a simple basic Karate block or the most profound martial art theories ever devised by mankind. They cannot tell the difference! It can therefore hurt you as Sifu as you don't get the right amount of feedback and appreciation from the students. At the same time only really dedicated martial artists can learn the original system which is now known as Weng Chun because it is much longer and profound.

So that's exactly the reason we need IWKA Wing Tjun for the average person, because it's these people who represent our biggest market!!!!!!! (IWKA Wing Tjun is simple self defence and conditioning of the highest possible quality taught in a state of the art syllabus, a Kung fu system which can be finished in about six years with twice weekly training. Influenced by the original system Weng Chun to make it superior to everything currently on the market and allowing for smooth transition from IWKA Wing Tjun to IWKA Weng Chun at a certain level.)

The IWKA headquarters in Amsterdam serves as a great example of how this functions in real life by having well over 300 students in Wing Tjun and about 50 in Weng Chun.

On the 21st and 22nd of January the new 12 student programmes will be officially introduced to the Italian teachers for the price of only 100 euros, certificates will be given and video capturing the programmes is allowed. This will also be a great opportunity for other overseas instructors in need of repetition. The seminar will be held at the school of Master Massimo Fiorentini in Naples.

Together we stand, divided we fall!

Dai-Sifu Iadarola.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
I will say that it was interesting to hear Chan Gou Ji being from the Lueng Jan/Yip Man Lineage relate his understanding of Wing Chun's origins.

He specifically mentions that Shaolin monks were taught kung fu at the Fujian Monastery.

He mentions the year in which the temple was burned down as being 1795.

Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.

Naturally it is interesting to hear another source corroborate the findings of the Ving tsun Museum because previous to hearing this only Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Weng/Wing Chun were credited with making mention of the evidence that Weng/Wing Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of Southern Shaolin.

Ving Tsun Museum findings (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/loewenhagen/step_forward_b.php)

Chan Gou Ji's story (http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdnews/200411090028.htm)


The Shaolin Connection

Weng Chun Din (Weng Chun Hall) = Weng Chun Tong


From Weng Chun to Wing Chun

" the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public."

[Cang Long]

Hi wengshunkuen
Here is his story -- "Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage"

1. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Chan Yui Min (son) > Chan Ga Lim (grandson) > Chan Gou Ji (great grand son)

2. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Ng Chung So (student) > Yip Man (student)
Hello Hungman,
Thank you for the informative post enjoyed reading them all.

Question. Are you familiar with the situation that places Lee Lei Wah as Leung Jan's student ahead of or before Chan Wah Shun an additional was it not he (Lee) who was referred to by the nickname muk yan Wah sometimes mistakenly the nickname given to Chan Wah Shun because he too had the name Wah?

[Hungman]

According to Chan Gou Ji...
Lee Wah passed away before Leung Jan and Chan Wah Shun.

(Sihing) Lee Wah aka Muk Yan Wah (Woodman Wah)

(Sidai) Chan Wah Shun aka Moneychanger Wah

[Cang Long]

If you like, I can give you a more detailed overview of what happened here, say for the last four or five years - that'll be a very long post! -- Armin

Ok let me get the coffee started. :)

[Armin]

Hello!

Thread is opened - Cang Long get your coffee. And Hungman: I have the belly of Santa - got to work on the beard. :D


Armin.

[wengshunkuen]

'The truth about Yip Kai Man' by Prof.GM. Rien Bul

From the many stories about him that go around we can make
out that Yip Kai Man's ablities were exellent. And I for one
believe they were. So it is all the sadder that from many wittness
-accounts we have todetermine that very few of his students seem to
have
been trying to emulate his prowess. Most of them were rather busy
trying to punch their
trainingspartner more often than the trainingspartner hit them.

When Hawkins Cheung describes practising Chi Sao (sticking hands)
with Yip, he tells us that he, Hawkins, was always either on his
heels or toes.
Either way he was always off balance, while Yip was at all
times 'rooted' and effortlessly kept his feet flat on the ground.
This shows a lot in the difference in approach Yip and his students
had. And it tells a lot about Yip's personal style. All of Yip's
students seemed more or less punch happy, while Yip was more
concerned with putting his opponents off balance.
Officially, Yip Man had been a student of Chan Wah Shun. Chan had
been a student of the famous Dr. Leung Jan of Fut Shan.
But when Yip enrolled, Chan was already a feeble old man and did not
teach anymore. All of his classes were taken by his head student Ng
Chung So. Ng never achieved the level of fame that both Dr Leung and
Chan did, maybe due to the fact that he kept a much lower profile. So
Yip, although officially was Chan's student he never actually
recieved any lessons from him. He was taught completely by Ng. And
naturally
when Chan died, Ng became the new grandmaster of that particular
lineage, there was never any discussion or disagreement about this
everyone was in complete agreement.

After Chan's death, Yip resumed his studies with Ng.
Years later, when Yip Man had advanced in practicing Wing Chun Kuen,
he paid off a debt, by teaching someone's nephews and friend of
theirs in Wing Chun Kuen.
But before he could do so he went to see Ng to ask his permission to
teach outside of the school. Ng gave his permission on the proviso
that he would not teach the style's footwork. He would be allowed to
show
and explain the hand techniques, but NEVER explain how the footwork
actually worked. Yip promised he would and went ahead to teach the
boys for a few years.

When the communists came, Yip had to flee, he lived in Macau for some
time. Then travelled to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong Yip was not able to
earn a living, in fact he was
starving! But he knew of one way to earn money, to teach Wing Chun
Kuen. He
did not like to teach as in his opinion the style was not his to
teach,
due to Ng Chung So being the Grandmaster of the time. But in order
to live he had no choice but to teach.
Yip picked a fight with a 'huge' gung fu practitioner called Leung
Sheung.He easily defeated the big man, who in turn became Yip's first
student and helped him to start his school.
After Sheung, the first students he had were Yip Bo Ching and Choi
Shun Tin. Yip never ever broke his promise to Grandmaster Ng, he
never
taught any of his students the correct Wing Chun footwork.
That is because Yip did not consider himself the real Grandmaster of
his lineage. Even though he is now world renowned 'Grandmaster of
Wing
Chun' he was not! And that is one thing that none of Yip's students
will
ever admit.
Another thing is that Yip kept his footwork to himself. If you would
be to speak to all of Yip's students they would ALL explain the
footworkdifferently, because they filled in that part themselves!
They made
it up!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever thought why Yip did not appoint anyone to be his
successor? After all those years he STILL did not consider himself
to be a teacher, much less a Grandmaster. So in his opinion there
was not
a title for him to give.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------



"Modern Wing Chun's Yip Man, while being a great martial artist and
teacher, was not a Bun Jyun (Lineage holder-Rien). He neither
claimed to lead a lineage nor claimed to be a successor to his
teacher while he was alive; It was only some of his students who
made this proclamation after his passing."

'Mastering Kung Fu'- page 60

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen

Any opinions?

Regards,
Fong

[Hungman]

'The truth about Yip Kai Man' by Prof.GM. Rien Bul.

Officially, Yip Man had been a student of Chan Wah Shun. Chan had
been a student of the famous Dr. Leung Jan of Fut Shan.
But when Yip enrolled, Chan was already a feeble old man and did not
teach anymore. All of his classes were taken by his head student Ng
Chung So. Ng never achieved the level of fame that both Dr Leung and
Chan did, maybe due to the fact that he kept a much lower profile. So
Yip, although officially was Chan's student he never actually
recieved any lessons from him. He was taught completely by Ng. And
naturally
when Chan died, Ng became the new grandmaster of that particular
lineage, there was never any discussion or disagreement about this
everyone was in complete agreement.

After Chan's death, Yip resumed his studies with Ng.
Years later, when Yip Man had advanced in practicing Wing Chun Kuen,
he paid off a debt, by teaching someone's nephews and friend of
theirs in Wing Chun Kuen.
But before he could do so he went to see Ng to ask his permission to
teach outside of the school. Ng gave his permission on the proviso
that he would not teach the style's footwork. He would be allowed to
show
and explain the hand techniques, but NEVER explain how the footwork
actually worked. Yip promised he would and went ahead to teach the
boys for a few years.




Hi wengshunkuen
Good post! That's the first time I've heard of Prof.GM. Rien Bul. Did he get this story from a friend or his teacher? Just curious!

According to William Cheung's story, Yip Man was supposed to be a student of Leung Bik (the son of Leung Jan), and Dai-Sifu Iadarola also said this -- "GGM Yip man studied in Dai Duk Lan in the late fifties and early sixties under GM Chu Chung Man, GM Wai Yan and GM Tang Yick." Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?


HM

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by Hungman
Hi wengshunkuen
Good post! That's the first time I've heard of Prof.GM. Rien Bul. Did he get this story from a friend or his teacher? Just curious!

According to William Cheung's story, Yip Man was supposed to be a student of Leung Bik (the son of Leung Jan), and Dai-Sifu Iadarola also said this -- "GGM Yip man studied in Dai Duk Lan in the late fifties and early sixties under GM Chu Chung Man, GM Wai Yan and GM Tang Yick." Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?


HM

Thank you, Hungman.
GM Prof. Bul was the first to openly come forward claiming that Yip had trained with his uncle Chu Chung Man, way before this info appeared on the internet or in any book. I know for certain that he was the source for this story for all these persons who now promote their style with it. Differerence is that, according to GM Bul, Yip had already trained with GM Chu when he was a young student. He supposedly studied in Hong Kong for a while and when he returned, his style had changed. It had become much 'softer'. In that period, if you had trained with another teacher, it was perceived as an insult to your own Sifu and his style. Fellow students would say "Isn't our style good enough for you?" So Yip made up the Leung Bik story as an explanation. This way he could maintain his new found info came from within his own lineage.

Yip knew very well there was a more 'original' version of the style and a more 'modified' form. This is no doubt where William Cheung got his story from. But IMHO Yip only told the story to Cheung but never actively taught the style. If you compare Cheung's version with any Weng Shun Kuen style it is not even close. Yip has explained on several occasions that staying nose to nose with the opponent throughout a fight wasn't the right way of doing things. One should always go to the opponent's outside. This is one of the main points that Cheung's version is based on. But a solution of how to do that he had to figure out for himself. The Weng Shun Kuen way is completely different.

More perceptive students were given a chance by Yip to pick up the right ways. It was under their noses all the time. You only had to look at what Yip himself was doing and then ask the right question. Yip's footwork was typically for Weng Shun Kuen. Also the soft 'Tui Sao' like Chi Sao.

You are right in that GM Bul got the info from his Sifu. But he says he has no knowledge of Yip training with Way Yan and Tam Yick in a later period. But he says it is probable. The relationship with GM Chu has always stayed friendly and he also says he would not know of any reason why they would have stopped exchanging information.

It is an interesting fact that Yip's footwork is much closer to the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen version than to that of modern Chi Sim Weng Shun Kuen. But, then again, when GM Hoffmann's early student (and current student of GM Cheng Kwong) Dariusz Rosanski studied with GM Hoffmann, he was also taught the 'pigeon toed' version of the Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance. I have seen a video of Mr. Rozanski performing the 'Sap Yat Kuen' form in front of Grandmasters Way Yan and Hoffmann where his stance is the same as in both Wudang Weng Shun Kuen as well as Yip's version. To my knowledge GM Cheng Kwong still teaches this version (though I COULD be mistaken at this specific point.)

You should visit the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen website if you are interested in the writings of GM Bul.
http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen

Thank you for your interest.

Respect,

[wengshunkuen]

I have always liked this stuff, written by Robert Chu. If you read right, it speaks VOLUMES! Enjoy!

Hawkins Cheung on Yip Man and Chi Sao:

I always got pushed out when I practised Chi Sao with my bigger
seniors. Everyone who learned Wing Chun alwys wanted to prove that
they were better than the others. Most of the practitioners
concentrated on the offensive side of sticking hands. They tried to
learn how to first hit the opponent. The practice became a sport
fighting game. Whoever was stronger would win. Egos ran wild and
every one wanted to be the best. There is a Wing Chun saying "Don't
speak of who's junior or senior. The one who attains the skill first
is senior." It meant that we don't have seniors because we were
better than our seniors. In Wing Chun we say we don't have seniors
because we strove to become better than the seniors and even better
than the founder. If you look at your art this way, you will
certainly improve.

During that period, I had a hard time. I thought of quitting a few
times, until I finally went to the old man. He always told me "Relax!
Relax! Don't get exited!" But whenever I practiced Chi Sao with
someone, it was hard to relax. Especially when I got hit. I became
angry when struck. I wanted to kill my opponent. The sticky hands
game became a fight, with both parties getting hurt. The question
was, who would get hurt more. Because I was smaller, I was the one
who would useally got hurt more.

When I saw Yip Man stick hands with others, he was very relaxed and
talked to his partner. Sometimes he threw his partner out without
having to hit him. When I stuck hands with Yip Man, I always felt my
balance controlled by him when I attempted to strike. I was always
off balance, with my toes or heels off the ground! I felt my hands
rebound when I tried to strike him. It appeared as if Yip Man would
use my force to hit me. His movement was so slight, it seemed he
didn't do anything, not even extend his hand! When I was thrown back,
it was very comfortable, not violent. Yet I could still not see his
techniques. When I asked him how he did it, he would simply say "Like
this!" as he demonstrated his extension of his hands, wich was the
same as in practice. I saw Yip Man do this to other students, even
seniors. He never landed a blow on he students. But he would put a
student in an awkward position and make the fellow students laugh at
the sight. He was the funniest old man. I never once saw Yip Man take
a step backward during Chi Sao.

I thought to myself, this old man was my size and weight. How could
he control his students so easily? So every time he played Chi Sao
with a student, I kept watching his perfect Wing Chun bodystructure.
Whenever he took a step forward, his opponent was thrown back. No
matter how big the student was, Yip Man never exhibited a killing
attitude. The students would swing his hands, and Yip Man would smile
and merely control the movements.

I really felt hopeless. So I asked Sifu what I should do to further
myself. He told me "Why do you always want to be the same as others?
You know it won't work. Why don't you change? Do the form more. Don't
even play sticking hands for a while. Do the form slower." I was
confused. I wanted to learn Wing Chun to fight. I wanted new ways and
new techniques. After all these years, Yip Man's advice were these
few words. I felt dissapointed, yet I couldn't argue with him. I had
the choice to either drop out or do what he said. So I reviewed all
the forms with him and he corrected them during private lessons. I
did stick hands with him slowly. He just coached me and guided my
hands like a babysitter. In this manner I learned the softer,
defensive side of Wing Chun. Bruce Lee didn't this high level of
skill. By Hong Kong standards, he was a 'Big Car'.

Who could know Yip Man's high skill? Yip Man could neutralize his
opponent's force or interrupt his opponent's motion so that it never
landed. When Yip Man faced a larger opponent, his skill was so high
he would shut off his opponent's engine or never let it start. When
you are old, you have to adapt this way to survive. With my small
size I had to learn this method. I had to be faster than my
opponent's fist or elbow extension. I had to see my opponent's
telegraphic body move or see his mind's intent. Whether in close
range or in distance-fighting. I have to interrupt my opponent's
engine start or guide his intention elsewhere.

(...)

To a Wing Chun Man, every attack is considered an 'Asking Hand'
(translated in Cantonese:'Man Sao'-Editor). My fist is a question
posed to you. If someone attacks you and you solve the problem before
it is initiated, how much politics are involved? Politics come from
partiality, wich is why I say that when Wing Chun is trained to a
high level, there are no techniques. Who realized Yip Man's skill?
All my training brothers respected Yip Man because he never hurt
them, nor where they skillful enough to hurt him. Yip Man's skill in
the 1950's was the epitome of sensitivity; He coul immidiately read
his opponent's intention

(...)

Wing Chun is a mental, rather than a physical martial art.

(...)

When you do Chi Sao you should not attack first, but rather try to
collect as much information as you can on you opponent. Many Wing
Chun practitioners want to attack first without gathering
information. Attacking first is to give your opponent information on
yourself. Sun Tzu advised us, "Know yourself, know the opponent. In a
hundred battles, a hundred victories." The forms of Wing Chun are for
you to know yourself, Chi Sao is the way to knowing others.

Written by Robert Chu

Robert Chu:
'I was lucky and was able to study many Wing Chun systems in the Yip
Man family, but I concentrated on studying more of what Hawkins
Cheung taught me. Hawkins' style I feel is unique, his Wing Chun
emphasizes body structure and stresses combat applications. When I
went to him, I already knew the entire system and had practiced Wing
Chun for over 11 years. Hawkins told me that knowing forms wasn't
enough - I had to concentrate on application. I thought, who is this
****y guy? Later I found out that he could back up everything he
said.'

'When I studied with Hawkins, I found that the real DNA of Wing Chun
is body structure, and this is what permeates in the application of
it. What I was lacking in my previous study of Wing Chun was how to
use body power. When I learned this, it made sense, for after all,
Yip Man was a small man - how could he beat bigger, huskier people
like Leing Sheung, Tsui Sheung Tien, Lok Yiu and Wong Shun
Leung, unless he had a mastery over body structure? Some have
speculated special or secret techniques, or another secret system,
but this is not so. The truth is one either develops body structure
or not.'

[Cang Long]

Wengshunkuen/ Fong
Is there a lineage chart for us to view, and or would you care to share with us Master Rien Bul's Sifu's name?

Yours is a very interesting story detailed and thorough although I am interested in hearing from some of our TWC forum members and their thoughts on your story concerning Leung Bik and the TWC footwork.

Thank you for sharing your teachings.

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

I agree, this is interesting, very much so for me as I used to train in the Yip Man lineage. I would be very interested to hear from some TWC experienced members on what they think about the ideas on the thread.
Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Cang Long:
Is there a lineage chart for us to view, and or would you care to share with us Master Rien Bul's Sifu's name?

Gary:
Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cang Long, Gary, friends..

You are putting me in an awkward position here. Let me put upfront that English isn't my mother-tongue. It is hard to expess myself in it as it is. It also isn't always quite easy to understand exactly what another person means. For instance, Cang Long; Are you asking me for a family-tree? If so, there is one on the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen website, although it is very incomplete. Your last question is even more puzzeling to me (excuse me for being stupid). What do you mean by 'and or would you care to share with us Master Rien Bul's Sifu's name?'? It is his true name, if that is what you are asking.

Discussing technical details and getting through what you mean only by words is hard for most anyone. But to someone with a very limited grasp of the English language it is pretty much impossible. This is something one should be able to show to an interested person and let him experience first hand. I have tried discussing this kind of info on the internet and my experiences with it have been nothing less than traumatising. Really. So I am unable to help out on this point. I would have LOVED to if I could have..

And don't forget, the info is all coming from GM Bul. I'm just re-telling what I've been told off the top of my head. But I know there is unbelievebly much more of this sort of info where this came from. I can tell you it is just the top of an immense iceberg. Even the little part I know could fill a large book.

I am grateful for your interest.

Respect,

[mario bava]

Hello wengshunkuen

Thanks very much for your answer. In no way would anyone here wish you to feel that way, I understand 100% what you mean.
I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).

Again, please do not feel in an akward position. This forum is wonderful for genuine discussion and interest and it has been wonderful reading your posts.

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Dear Hungman,

Like I said previously, I am a sucker for stories like yours. I have always liked the one below. It is not meant to put anyone down. It is just a ascinating read that I didn't want you to miss out on. Hope you enjoy it!

Your friend,
WengShunKuen


'Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun' (Author unknown)

Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon



Before I begin this story, I want to make it clear that this is in
no way intended to put Chow Gar Mantis up as superior to the Wing
Chun system, and no offence is intended to any Wing Chun player.
This is simply a legend related to me by my Sifu. This legend is, in
a way, a tribute to the late Wing Chun Master, best known as Bruce
Lee's Sifu in the early years. I say tribute because it depicts Sifu
Leung in a situation where he found himself often. And on a personal
note, my first ever Sifu, who taught me Wing Chun Chuan, trained
under Sifu Wong Shun Leung in Australia for some time, so I suppose
in a way he was my first SiGong.

Everyone who knows anything about Sifu Wong Shun Leung knows that he
loved to fight. It was this fact that first brought him to the
school of the late Wing Chun Grandmaster, Yip Man. On crossing hands
with Yip Man, he very quickly realised that he was no match for the
Grandmaster, and asked if he would take him as his student. It would
appear that this 'fighting spirit' never really dwindled as Wong
Shun Leung progressed in his training, as one day, he appeared at
the school of Grandmaster Ip Sui...

He had come to cross hands with the Grandmaster, which is probably
bordering on the disrespectful. Even so, you have to admire his
spirit. Grandmaster Ip Sui, who was teaching a class at the time,
turned down the request, but suggested a contest between the curious
student, and one of his own students, Mr Choy Su Wing.

The Southern Mantis system is ideal for those with a long, slender
physique, just like the characteristics of the mantis itself. It
also places great emphasis on internal training's, to generate
strength and power. Choy Su Wing is tall, but very powerful. Both
students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.

In the blink of an eye, Mr Choy used the powerful 'Cum La' seizing
hand technique, grabbing Wong Shun by the throat and the arm. From
many years of training the Mantis Clawing technique his hands and
arms were as solid as iron bars. Try as he might, and the story goes
that he put up a hell of a fight, Wong Shun was unable to remove
them. Mr Choy's arms were too long to enable Wong Shun to put a kick
in - Mr Choy walked him into the corner by his throat, and held him
there. At once, he released his arm and raised his hand to drop the
devastating Gow Choi (Tiger comes down the mountain) hammer hand
technique upon his head.

Gow choi is an extremely serious technique to use - Grandmaster Ip
Sui, who had been watching this turn of events closely, moved
quickly to Mr Choy's side, and as he brought his hand crashing down
towards Wong Shun's head, Grandmaster slapped his arm across, so the
technique missed the target.

Grandmaster broke up the session, telling Wong Shun Leung that he
had seen what he had come to see, and that he should leave. Wong
Shun Leung was quite lucky that day.

As an endnote, Grandmaster Ip Sui travelled to the school of Yip
Man, to ask him why he had sent his student to his school to make
trouble. Yip Man said that he had no involvement in this. Wong Shun
Leung had made the decision to go to Ip Sui's school of his own
accord...

Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter, and
someone who believed in the merits of the Challenge Match. Not so
much today, where, too often, Kung Fu is a game, a hobby, something
to do in our spare time. We could all learn something from Sifu
Leung. Kung Fu is also about having heart and the guts to put
yourself on the spot.

Today, Sifu Choy Su Wing is in good health and living in Hong Kong,
aged 72.



Wong Shun Leung.... 1935-1997

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello wengshunkuen

Thanks very much for your answer. In no way would anyone here wish you to feel that way, I understand 100% what you mean.
I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).

Again, please do not feel in an akward position. This forum is wonderful for genuine discussion and interest and it has been wonderful reading your posts.

Cheerio, Gary

Dear friend,

Thanks for understanding!

Greetz,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello wengshunkuen

I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).



Thanks Gary. Now I understand the question. GM Bul's Sifu's name will probably mean nothing to anyone here. He was called Lin Yi. But when GM Bul asked him how his name was written he agreed with almost anything GM wrote down, no matter what the spelling was; Lin Yi, Lin Ji, Lim Yee, Lam Yee etc. Also, GM Bul still doesn't know if this was his personal name or sirname or nickname or anything. It is just an approximation of what the name sounded like to a Dutch-speaking person. GM Bul says it didn't matter much at the time. He called his teacher 'Sifu' anyway(-;

The lineage of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen came from a person on the red junks whom GGM Lin Yi (whatever) called Leung Shum Dit (again an approximation of GGM's pronunciation) and sometime 'Sun Kam'. This is most likely the same person mentioned by other lineages as 'Dai Fa Min Kam'. He taught Fong Siu Ching, who taught Hon Wah Sheun (again..) who taught Lin Yi, who taught Rien Bul.

Cang Long, I hope this answers your question. And Gary, thank you again for your help.

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello Cang Long


Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cheerio, Gary

Below I will post two articles by GM Prof Bul on footwork. Please, don't ask me to elaborate any further on them. You would be talking to the wrong person. I can only add from my own experience that I have seen someone from one of the many versions of southern Praying Mantis perform EXACTLY the same footwork as we do in Wudang Weng Shun Kuen! This is interesting, because it is said that the early Hakka style that evolved into southern Mantis was one of the earliest and biggest influences on the genesis and early development of Weng Shun Kuen. The rest is up to the GM's articles.

The importance of correct positioning
by Rien Bul

To make your techniques work it is imperative to understand the
importance of correct positioning. It is one of the major features
of our style wich make it possible to overcome force without the use
of excessive muscular strength.

It has been said that a complete Gung Fu style contains both "hard"
and "soft" techniques. In fact nothing could be further from the
truth. The people who say such things lack the knowledge to make
an "internal" style work. Therefore they think it is all just a
theory that can't be made to work in actual combat. In Weng Shun
Kuen this knowledge is lost to all but a few lineages. Also, there
are those styles that promise their students they will learn how to
control and defeat an opponent who is physically bigger and stronger
then themselves and can't deliver the goods in the end. This doesn't
help the "soft" styles' credibility either. But in fact it isn't
mysterious at all and not as hard to learn as one might think it is.
You just have to understand the way it works.

When under attack, a Weng Shun Kuen man slaps away whatever is
coming at him, using the Man Sao ("Attacking the attack"). Then he
positions his body behind his technique to strengthen it. This is
accomplished by pointing the centerline at he point of contact (see
illustrations). This way very little muscle power is needed to
control the opponent. To be able to pull all of this off fluently
one needs a good control of his Footwork.



Footwork
by Rien Bul

One of the hardest subjects to get across to the reader, I think, is
Weng Shun Kuen footwork. But I'll give it a try, anyway. Most Weng
Shun Kuen practitioners have a poor understanding of the style's
footwork. But it's much more important to have a good grasp of than
one might think. Your hand techniques don't function properly if you
don't have it down. Plus, contrary to popular belief, it isn't a
bore to train at all!

Swiveling
One of the most basic techniques within Weng Shun Kuen allows one to
rotate around one's own axis as fast as the situation calls for
without jeopardising one's balance at any point in the process of
turning. I think it is best known as "swiveling", so that will be
the term I'll be using to describe it. This technique knows
surprisingly many applications, namely:

Fast positioning
Getting out of the way of the attack
Breaking holds
Unbalancing the opponent
Strengthening a technique by placing the practitioner's body behind
it

How to swivel correctly
To swivel correctly, one needs to be standing in the Weng Shun Kuen
basic stance known as "Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma". In this stance the
practitioner keeps both his feet at shoulder width and points his
toes inward at each other. Sink into the stance until you experience
a sensation like your knees are being pulled together by a rubber
band. The back should be straightened at all time. To make the Weng
Shun Kuen techniques function, it's imperative to be standing in
correct Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma. When attempting to swivel without
pointing the toes inward, your body will tend to sway instead of
keeping in place and just turn around its own axis.

Positioning
Positioning at the opponent's side places the Weng Shun Kuen
practitioner outside of his reach. At the same time it enables him
to immobilize and then finish the opponent. One should also
strenghten one's technique by positioning behind it.

Attacking the opponent's legs
All the techniques meant to bridge the gap to the opponent are to be
found in the "Chum Kiu" form. Transfer as much weight as possible to
the rear leg by sinking into it. Use the front leg to agressively
attack the opponent's structure ( Stance). He is kept off-balance by
the practitioner's forward pressure. To accomplish this take short,
fierce steps, pressuring the opponent's legs from the side or rear.

Stepping
There are no long range stepping methods in Weng Shun Kuen. Because
the practitioner always counter-attacks after establishing contact,
the distance that must be bridged to reach the target is always very
short.

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen

[mario bava]

Hello WengShunKuen

Thanks very much again - you seem to have no confidence in you English - I find your English as good as anyone's! - much better than you must think it is! If possible, even in basic terms, can you give us any idea of the differences in footwork?

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello WengShunKuen

Thanks very much again - you seem to have no confidence in you English - I find your English as good as anyone's! - much better than you must think it is! If possible, even in basic terms, can you give us any idea of the differences in footwork?

Cheerio, Gary


..but my English really isn't up to it. It is too hard anyway. I can only say it is defensive at first, but aimed at 'attacking the opponent's attack and destroying his structure' (by pressuring it-WSK). It is amazingly soft but flexible. A visiting Hung Ga Sifu said " I have no clue how to fight anything this soft. It is like there's nothing there."

I have to get some sleep now. It is two in the morning here.

In friendship,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by wengshunkuen
'The truth about Yip Kai Man' by Prof.GM. Rien Bul

From the many stories about him that go around we can make
out that Yip Kai Man's ablities were exellent. And I for one
believe they were. So it is all the sadder that from many wittness
-accounts we have todetermine that very few of his students seem to
have
been trying to emulate his prowess. Most of them were rather busy
trying to punch their
trainingspartner more often than the trainingspartner hit them.

When Hawkins Cheung describes practising Chi Sao (sticking hands)
with Yip, he tells us that he, Hawkins, was always either on his
heels or toes.
Either way he was always off balance, while Yip was at all
times 'rooted' and effortlessly kept his feet flat on the ground.
This shows a lot in the difference in approach Yip and his students
had. And it tells a lot about Yip's personal style. All of Yip's
students seemed more or less punch happy, while Yip was more
concerned with putting his opponents off balance.
Officially, Yip Man had been a student of Chan Wah Shun. Chan had
been a student of the famous Dr. Leung Jan of Fut Shan.
But when Yip enrolled, Chan was already a feeble old man and did not
teach anymore. All of his classes were taken by his head student Ng
Chung So. Ng never achieved the level of fame that both Dr Leung and
Chan did, maybe due to the fact that he kept a much lower profile. So
Yip, although officially was Chan's student he never actually
recieved any lessons from him. He was taught completely by Ng. And
naturally
when Chan died, Ng became the new grandmaster of that particular
lineage, there was never any discussion or disagreement about this
everyone was in complete agreement.

After Chan's death, Yip resumed his studies with Ng.
Years later, when Yip Man had advanced in practicing Wing Chun Kuen,
he paid off a debt, by teaching someone's nephews and friend of
theirs in Wing Chun Kuen.
But before he could do so he went to see Ng to ask his permission to
teach outside of the school. Ng gave his permission on the proviso
that he would not teach the style's footwork. He would be allowed to
show
and explain the hand techniques, but NEVER explain how the footwork
actually worked. Yip promised he would and went ahead to teach the
boys for a few years.

When the communists came, Yip had to flee, he lived in Macau for some
time. Then travelled to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong Yip was not able to
earn a living, in fact he was
starving! But he knew of one way to earn money, to teach Wing Chun
Kuen. He
did not like to teach as in his opinion the style was not his to
teach,
due to Ng Chung So being the Grandmaster of the time. But in order
to live he had no choice but to teach.
Yip picked a fight with a 'huge' gung fu practitioner called Leung
Sheung.He easily defeated the big man, who in turn became Yip's first
student and helped him to start his school.
After Sheung, the first students he had were Yip Bo Ching and Choi
Shun Tin. Yip never ever broke his promise to Grandmaster Ng, he
never
taught any of his students the correct Wing Chun footwork.
That is because Yip did not consider himself the real Grandmaster of
his lineage. Even though he is now world renowned 'Grandmaster of
Wing
Chun' he was not! And that is one thing that none of Yip's students
will
ever admit.
Another thing is that Yip kept his footwork to himself. If you would
be to speak to all of Yip's students they would ALL explain the
footworkdifferently, because they filled in that part themselves!
They made
it up!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever thought why Yip did not appoint anyone to be his
successor? After all those years he STILL did not consider himself
to be a teacher, much less a Grandmaster. So in his opinion there
was not
a title for him to give.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------



"Modern Wing Chun's Yip Man, while being a great martial artist and
teacher, was not a Bun Jyun (Lineage holder-Rien). He neither
claimed to lead a lineage nor claimed to be a successor to his
teacher while he was alive; It was only some of his students who
made this proclamation after his passing."

'Mastering Kung Fu'- page 60

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen



From 'Complete Wing Chun' by Chu, Ritchie and Wu:

'It is known that when Yip Man taught Chi Sao, his students would always be gently falling backwards or forwards and unable to control their center of gravity. Yip Man would constantly have the students up on their heels or on the balls of their feet, while controlling their every movement.' page 22

[wengshunkuen]

When I saw Yip Man stick hands with others, he was very relaxed and
talked to his partner. Sometimes he threw his partner out without
having to hit him. When I stuck hands with Yip Man, I always felt my
balance controlled by him when I attempted to strike. I was always
off balance, with my toes or heels off the ground! I felt my hands
rebound when I tried to strike him. It appeared as if Yip Man would
use my force to hit me. His movement was so slight, it seemed he
didn't do anything, not even extend his hand! When I was thrown back,
it was very comfortable, not violent. Yet I could still not see his
techniques.

...He never landed a blow on he students. But he would put a
student in an awkward position...

...So every time he played Chi Sao
with a student, I kept watching his perfect Wing Chun bodystructure.
Whenever he took a step forward, his opponent was thrown back. No
matter how big the student was, Yip Man never exhibited a killing
attitude. The students would swing his hands, and Yip Man would smile
and merely control the movements...


...He just coached me and guided my
hands like a babysitter. In this manner I learned the softer,
defensive side of Wing Chun...

...When you do Chi Sao you should not attack first, but rather try to
collect as much information as you can on you opponent. Many Wing
Chun practitioners want to attack first without gathering
information. Attacking first is to give your opponent information on
yourself...

...'It is known that when Yip Man taught Chi Sao, his students would always be gently falling backwards or forwards and unable to control their center of gravity. Yip Man would constantly have the students up on their heels or on the balls of their feet, while controlling their every movement.' page 22

Friends,

All this sounds EXACTLY to me like my own experience with practising Chi Sao with my own Grandmaster. Maybe it tells you a bit of what you like to know..

WSK

[mario bava]

Thanks Again WSK -

Thanks for you posts.

The Hungman asked:

'Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?'

and your posted answer contained:

'Yip had already trained with GM Chu when he was a young student.'.........'It is an interesting fact that Yip's footwork is much closer to the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen version than to that of modern Chi Sim Weng Shun Kuen'.

In this instance, how have the footworks differed in your opinion?

By the way, I agree with you! It's late here in old Ireland as well and I'll be hitting the hay too. Anyway, I hope to chat again with you tomorrow maybe. Have a good snooze!

Cheerio, Gary

[Cang Long]

The lineage of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen came from a person on the red junks whom GGM Lin Yi (whatever) called Leung Shum Dit (again an approximation of GGM's pronunciation) and sometime 'Sun Kam'. This is most likely the same person mentioned by other lineages as 'Dai Fa Min Kam'. He taught Fong Siu Ching, who taught Hon Wah Sheun (again..) who taught Lin Yi, who taught Rien Bul.

Cang Long, I hope this answers your question.
Wengshunkuen,
Thank you for your patience and your willingness to share the teaching of your Sifu. The topics and insight are greatly appreciated I do agree witht he otheres that have said as much.

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava


The Hungman asked:

'Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?'

and your posted answer contained:

'Yip had already trained with GM Chu when he was a young student.'.........'It is an interesting fact that Yip's footwork is much closer to the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen version than to that of modern Chi Sim Weng Shun Kuen'.

In this instance, how have the footworks differed in your opinion?

Cheerio, Gary

Dear Gary,

According to early Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen (from the period it was known as Chi Sim Ving Tsun, I believe) students they were taught a Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance of the pigeon-toed variety, like the one that most Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen branches use. The stance that is taught these days looks more like a horsestance-like construction. I have little knowledge of the stances in Chan Yiu Min- or Pao Fa Lien Weng Chun Kuen. But I do know that YM WCK, CS VT and WWSK share the same stance. The only style I am familiar with that has a different stance is Pan Nam's Weng Chun Kuen.

Best,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Wengshunkuen,
Thank you for your patience and your willingness to share the teaching of your Sifu. The topics and insight are greatly appreciated I do agree witht he otheres that have said as much.

My pleasure, Cang Long. Sharing is why I'm here. My Sifu says 80% of Kung Fu knowledge has gotten lost as a result of teachers then and now being secretive or even dishonest.

Greetz,

[Cang Long]

hello Wengshunkuen,
It is just an approximation of what the name sounded like to a Dutch-speaking person. GM Bul says it didn't matter much at the time. He called his teacher 'Sifu' anyway(-; Did your sifu travel to China or did he study with his Sifu in the Netherlands?

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by Cang Long
hello Wengshunkuen,
Did your sifu travel to China or did he study with his Sifu in the Netherlands?

Hi Cang Long,

GGM Lin Yi was from Guandong, but taught GM Bul at his home in the Netherlands since he was seven or eight. GM Bul is 38 now.

Respect,

[Hungman]

Originally posted by wengshunkuen
Dear Hungman,

Like I said previously, I am a sucker for stories like yours. I have always liked the one below. It is not meant to put anyone down. It is just a ascinating read that I didn't want you to miss out on. Hope you enjoy it!

Your friend,
WengShunKuen


'Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun' (Author unknown)

Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon



Before I begin this story, I want to make it clear that this is in
no way intended to put Chow Gar Mantis up as superior to the Wing
Chun system, and no offence is intended to any Wing Chun player.
This is simply a legend related to me by my Sifu. This legend is, in
a way, a tribute to the late Wing Chun Master, best known as Bruce
Lee's Sifu in the early years. I say tribute because it depicts Sifu
Leung in a situation where he found himself often. And on a personal
note, my first ever Sifu, who taught me Wing Chun Chuan, trained
under Sifu Wong Shun Leung in Australia for some time, so I suppose
in a way he was my first SiGong.

Everyone who knows anything about Sifu Wong Shun Leung knows that he
loved to fight. It was this fact that first brought him to the
school of the late Wing Chun Grandmaster, Yip Man. On crossing hands
with Yip Man, he very quickly realised that he was no match for the
Grandmaster, and asked if he would take him as his student. It would
appear that this 'fighting spirit' never really dwindled as Wong
Shun Leung progressed in his training, as one day, he appeared at
the school of Grandmaster Ip Sui...

He had come to cross hands with the Grandmaster, which is probably
bordering on the disrespectful. Even so, you have to admire his
spirit. Grandmaster Ip Sui, who was teaching a class at the time,
turned down the request, but suggested a contest between the curious
student, and one of his own students, Mr Choy Su Wing.

The Southern Mantis system is ideal for those with a long, slender
physique, just like the characteristics of the mantis itself. It
also places great emphasis on internal training's, to generate
strength and power. Choy Su Wing is tall, but very powerful. Both
students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.

In the blink of an eye, Mr Choy used the powerful 'Cum La' seizing
hand technique, grabbing Wong Shun by the throat and the arm. From
many years of training the Mantis Clawing technique his hands and
arms were as solid as iron bars. Try as he might, and the story goes
that he put up a hell of a fight, Wong Shun was unable to remove
them. Mr Choy's arms were too long to enable Wong Shun to put a kick
in - Mr Choy walked him into the corner by his throat, and held him
there. At once, he released his arm and raised his hand to drop the
devastating Gow Choi (Tiger comes down the mountain) hammer hand
technique upon his head.

Gow choi is an extremely serious technique to use - Grandmaster Ip
Sui, who had been watching this turn of events closely, moved
quickly to Mr Choy's side, and as he brought his hand crashing down
towards Wong Shun's head, Grandmaster slapped his arm across, so the
technique missed the target.

Grandmaster broke up the session, telling Wong Shun Leung that he
had seen what he had come to see, and that he should leave. Wong
Shun Leung was quite lucky that day.

As an endnote, Grandmaster Ip Sui travelled to the school of Yip
Man, to ask him why he had sent his student to his school to make
trouble. Yip Man said that he had no involvement in this. Wong Shun
Leung had made the decision to go to Ip Sui's school of his own
accord...

Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter, and
someone who believed in the merits of the Challenge Match. Not so
much today, where, too often, Kung Fu is a game, a hobby, something
to do in our spare time. We could all learn something from Sifu
Leung. Kung Fu is also about having heart and the guts to put
yourself on the spot.

Today, Sifu Choy Su Wing is in good health and living in Hong Kong,
aged 72.



Wong Shun Leung.... 1935-1997



Hello wengshunkuen
Good post! Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter:cool: I agree;)

Whether or not you ever have the opportuninty to use what you learn, ongoing education is always beneficial. You grow more interesting, educated, and confident--and better prepared for any opportunity that comes your way. Ten Tigers has been waiting for you.... that's not a joke:D


HM



Originally posted by TenTigers
some group tries to establish themsleves, and in order to establish credibility, they knock other styles. I seem to remember a certain Sifu who claimed that his version was the real deal, while all others were simply a watered down 'modified' method, or another claiming his iron palm was superior, and that others were from peasant styles.



At this point, as soon as one of these people surface with these kind of stories, it raises a red flag. It almost always means some kind of bulls***

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/newreply.php?s=&action=newreply&postid=8133

[Andreas Hoffman]

Originally posted by Weng Shun Kuen
"According to early Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen (from the period it was known as Chi Sim Ving Tsun, I believe) students they were taught a Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance of the pigeon-toed variety, like the one that most Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen branches use."

Weng Chun´s family: GM Wai Yan, GM Chu Chung Man and GM Tang Yick never used a "pigeon toed" stance. In Weng Chun this stance was never teached inside the family. GM Cheng Kwong teached under the name Cheng Kwong Ving Tsun/Chi Sim Ving Tsun a public(mixed) version of weng chun and wing chun. He created his Siu Lim Tau, Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma etc.
Since I became successor of GM Wai Yan I´m teaching only Weng Chun.