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View Full Version : The developpment of wing chun in Europe


Armin
10-04-2005, 12:31 PM
Hi to all!

As a speciel x-mas-present to hungman and hoping that Cang Long has his coffee ready, I try to give you all more details of how 'the scene' developped in Germany and Europe.

Unce upon a time - it was 1972 - a young german and several others found the 'Budozirkel Kiel'. They trained Judo and Karate and several other styles this young man had experience in. His name was Keith Ronald Kernspecht. He was the son of a circus-magician, was well-trained in wrestling and had muscles like big Arni.

Several years later, young Kernspecht started searching for some 'real Kung Fu'. He met a teacher in London/GB, that taught something that was called 'wing chun'. But this teacher wasn't willing to let young Kernspecht teach (so the people guess today), that's why he tried to get hold of another one. A young student of Leung Sheung namend Leung Ting. This man claimed to be the inheritor of ol' Yip Man - THE great-grandmaster of wing chun. He even had some photos of himself, the 10th dan in chinese karate, and THE great-grandmaster of wing chun (ok, they were fake, as we know today, but hey - it worked).

Keith R. Kernspecht (in the following only KRK) invited Leung Ting (in the following only LT) to Germany and that's how the famous European Wing Tsun Organisation, or short the EWTO began. KRK, holding the 8th or 9th students-degree (after 2 or 3 years) started teaching on his own - what he didn't know, he just made up - until his sifu corrected it.

The idea of KRK was, to build the biggest organisation for intelligent and esp. working self-defense. But there weren't too many students. So what to do? Young KRK had the solution: he and his students did train the 'easy but working' techniques, like chain-punches and frontkick, and did some special 'anti-other-systems'-training. Now they were able to visit schools of other systems and they challenged the teachers!

Most of the challenges were won - except of some, namely the challenge of Maître Tung, a former black-dragon in the Vietnam-war and a master of Viet Vo Dao. He promised KRK in a phone-call that, if that would happen again, he'll visit KRK with his two axes.

That brought masses of new students. Training was very technical these days - I remember courses were we trained the tan sao for more than four hours (that was in 1991).

But soon, KRK wasn't very pleased. His aim was, to build groups with doctors, professors and of course police-officers. But with his marketing idea, he just got the average 'beat-em-up' from the street. So, there had to be new ideas.

That's when he started to teach his 'intelligent'-system of giving way to power. Through superior use of the brain and understanding the concepts, one was supposed to able to beat every possible enemy - including Mike Tyson, Bruce Lee and so on.

Mentioning Bruce Lee. Do you know why the EWTO struggles to say what Bruce Lee learned and what not? E. g. they say, that Bruce never really learned the Biu Dji or the wooden dummy - why? Because the average teacher of the EWTO, who learned this stuff knows more than Bruce - that gives the image of these guys being better than Bruce.

Back to the 1980s. Again, KRK wasn't happy. He had some argues with his sifu and he tried to figure out, how to get rid of him (in private he called him 'yellow rat', and that kind of kind words). That's when he contacted one of Bruce Lee's students. They met and KRK invented what is called the 'pak sao-punch'-program. A usefull tool to prepare students for chi sao (I'm still convinced of this method of partner-training - it's fast, it's powerful, it's fun!).

But things got better - so he and his sifu stayed together.

In the late 1990s things started getting bad again. There were less students coming, something had to be done. That's when LT got a special present of an old Fatshan-resident: a hand-written book with what he called the 'health siu nim tao'. One student of KRK, Roland Liebscher-Bracht, invented the WT-Chi-Kung programs, something like 'proggressive muscle-relaxation' light. The idea was, to build 'health-groups'. Why? Again very easy: the health-insurances did pay very good for people being able to give courses.

After the insurances stopped paying for that - the whole health-idea died. But KRK was a lucky man - meanwhile there was another trend he could follow. A man called Billy Blanks started teaching 'Tae Bo' - a mixture of karate and Aerobic (Billy Blanks was well-known as Karate-champion before). Well, if Karate and Aerobic worked together, why not WT and Aerobic - and 'Frequen-Chi' was born (again under Roland Liebscher-Bracht).

But KRK knew that there had to be done more than this. He tried to concentrate back on the stuff, that WT was meant for. Self-defence is spelled WT, that's what he always said. Why shouldn't there be something like 'WT light' for the beginners, so they could denfend themselves even earlier?! Again he made something up - WT Blitz-Defence (something that was copied very often).

Ok, that in short was the evolution of the EWTO. Now, let's take a look what happened inbetween the dates.

It all began with a guy called Phillip Bayer. He lost some fingers in an accident and he was told, that there would be no way for him, to teach WT. Phillip wasn't satisfied with this, so he booked a flight to Hongkong and started searching for a teacher. Finally, he found his sifu: Wong Shun Leung. But oh wonder! Wong Shun Leung taught something totally different to what Phillip knew from the EWTO! Wong Shun Leung's system was logical and easier to apply.

Well, it got known very fast in the EWTO that Phillip found someone new - and the EWTO started throwing dirt at him and his sifu. 'Singel-handed cripple' was one of the nicer words the EWTO used.

Today, Phillip Bayer still teaches the Ving Tsun he learned from his sifu Wong Shun Leung.

Shortly after Phillip another guy left the EWTO. His name was Birrol Özden a young turkish 3rd technican. KRK and LT spread the rumour (or better: the lie), that the name 'WT' was internationally protected by copyright law. Well, that's not possible - WT is not a brand, it's a generic name, like Karate. What they could protect was e. g. 'Leung Ting WT'. Well, poor Birrol believed in that lie - and so he started calling his system 'Ving Chun'.

Well, I got to be a little carefull now with what I say. It seems, that Birrol Özden started to gain a huge control over his students. Some people, who tried to leave his organisation (esp. the teachers), were bullied around and their families were threatened (like 'we now where your children go to school' - and in some cases, it looks like the children were away for some days - until the parents did pay money).

Birrol had to struggle hard. He had only 3 or 4 running schools (the 150 others were planned to open for more than 10 years). So he needed some ideas to make money. So, people were forced to buy training-accessoirs that did cost twice as much as you normally pay, they weren't allowed to bring something to drink to courses - they had to pay 'sifu's drinks', and so.

In the end of the 1980s another teacher left the EWTO and found his own sifu: Wilhelm Blech now followed Lok Yiu. Again, the machinery of the EWTO started working and very bad things were said about Wilhelm.

In 1994 another highly-ranked teacher left the EWTO: Klaus Dingeldein had to leave the EWTO right before he passed the test to the masters-degree. Well, rumours say, that he was a pimp (and he still is). In 1998 or 1999 Klaus Dingeldein found his own organisation - the European Ving Tsun Federation (EVTF), thus calling his style VT. He is a damn good fighter (he was the partner of Emin Boztepe for a very long time) and he is one of the best technicians I've ever seen.

Shortly after Klaus, another high-ranked teacher left the EWTO - this time, because he did advertisement in the region of another sifu and the people think that he lead an assault on this sifu. Salih Avci was the only high-ranked teacher coming from the biggest minority in Germany. He calls his style 'Avci-WT'. His style is very aggressive and they train a lot of groundfighting.

Than the big bang! Emin Boztepe, super-fighter of the EWTO, was fired from the EWTO. He was the one, who fought against William Cheung and he was the one who challenged the Gracies (of course, there was no fight). He was the first after KRK to earn the 6th master-degree. Why was he fired? Well, he didn't pay his licence-money to LT. That's all folks - he didn't pay.

Today, Emin runs his own organisation - the 'Emin Boztepe Martial Arts System' (EBMAS).

But even more sorrow did another loss bring: at the same time Rene Latosa left the EWTO. He was GGM of Eskrima. What was his problem? Quite eay. KRK advocated WT as the weaponless fighting-system and Eskrima as the system with weapons. But Eskrima has a weaponless-system that could compare its effectiveness with WT. So, KRK forced Rene to stop teaching the weaponless parts of his system!

And now it got worse and worse. A young technician managed to get some extra-training from LT and he said the words, that everyone already had in the back of his head. KRK didn't teach everything LT taught him. KRK was keeping secret techniques to himself. KRK only wanted the money. And so on. So, suddenly there was a teacher who knew everything (he had a certification of LT, saying that he learned the whole weaponless WT from LT). A lot of students, teachers, technicians and even masters took a look at this guy and followed him. His name was Sergio Idarola. In one night, so it seems, the EWTO lost Italy, the Netherlands, Sweden and half of the other european countries to him.

But he was too willing to give his knowledge away. The 'masters' that followed, took what they could - and half a year or one year later they left him again, founding their own organisations.


You see, there's a lot that happened - but I didn't mention the hundreds or thousands of teachers (like me) that left the EWTO and started their own small thing. They call it WT, VT, WC, Wing Tjun, Ving Dschunn, Tao Concepts, and so on, and so on.

And now the problem: how to distinguish the schools that teach 'real wing chun' from the EWTO-offshoots (being honestly: WT s***s - as most already know!)? There are at least 20 different VT-organisations, two or three of them are 'real VT' - all others are WT with another name.

And that's when the family-tree comes into the game - and of course the internet-community. People have to search for a special person and ask others about this person in the different forums. After that, someone can say, that he learns 'real Ving Tsun'.

Feel free to question!!!


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 12:13 AM
Most of the challenges were won - except of some, namely the challenge of Maître Tung, a former black-dragon in the Vietnam-war and a master of Viet Vo Dao. He promised KRK in a phone-call that, if that would happen again, he'll visit KRK with his two axes. Hello Armin,
Thanks for the details it was not as long as I thought so maybe that is just the begining :) Most of the challenges were won - except of some, namely the challenge of Maître Tung, a former black-dragon in the Vietnam-war and a master of Viet Vo Dao. He promised KRK in a phone-call that, if that would happen again, he'll visit KRK with his two axes. This caught my eye any more detail on this particular story and this gentleman sounds very interesting.

Armin
10-05-2005, 01:33 AM
Good morning Cang Long!

Yes - it's quite an overview of what happened. There are more details of course - I'll try to give them to your answers.

I met Maître Tung once on a two-day seminar. He is a really nice and kind guy. He speaks very soft and he dislikes people getting hurt in training.

Watching him, it was the first time that I realized, that the 'wing tsun-tricks' against hi-kicks would never work. He performed kicks in an awesome speed! Even when he linked three or four kicks together, it was so fast, one never had the chance to do anything. You just didn't see his kicks!

On the other hand he was a really tough guy. When stretching, he asked his partner do put his arm in a lock until you could see the pain in his face - then he held this position for about 2 minutes!

For me, it was a highly valuable experience, to see someone, who really used on the battelfield and in hand-to-hand combat, what he teaches.

Maître Tung told us bits of his cv. He was born in Vietnam and joined the war when he was around 16. As far as I remember (don't try to nail me down on this!) he was a member of a special unit that was to get behind the enemy lines and do whatever special-units do there. I believe (!mark my words!) that he fought for the Vietcong - but I'm really not sure of this!!!

Well, after some time (he woudn't say how long), he started disliking what he did - so he ran away and took refuge in Germany.

Very interesting were his stories of how they trained 'these days'. He said that is was usual to have a broken nose or a bleeding lip. Sometimes, students got hurt really bad or killed. For them, training was the same as fighting. He called that a stupid way of training! ;)

On the other had, when I met him, he seemed kind of sad and disappointed. We had a little talk, were I was able to ask him some questions. He was very disappointed about his students. Nearly all of them seemed very lazy - after having passed the test to his black sash and opening an own school, they stopped training their own stuff. And some of his students started arguing over money - and left him.

As far as I know, he really stopped teaching openly - he closed his doors (maybe, someday - there will be a 'closed-door student' again ;) ).

And what to say about Viet Vo Dao? The very few I saw, was very impressing. Very economical, fast and deadly. Using all the 'weapons' (hands, arms, ellbows, and so on) we use. Viet Vo Dao with weapons seems very interesting, too. It's kind of a military combat system - using what a soldier has in the first place and than trying to improvise weapons (such as two axes).

Ah, yes, and he had some 'bad news' for us ving tsun guys. He told me, that he met some people form Viet Vo Dao who worked on a new style of Viet Vo Dao called 'salamander'. It was using very short movements, giving as few impulses as possible - a style devellopped to 'break' Ving Tsun. That was an interesting thought. He showed some moves to me - very nice.


Armin.

sihing
10-05-2005, 02:20 AM
Armin,

Thanks for posting all this behing the scenes info. Very interesting what business and greed (People) can do when sharing a art form.

Armin, since you are familar with the Leung Ting organization, I have some questions. At it's peak, how many students were in the WT organization World Wide you think. I know that Europe has tons, but I'm thinking it was about 500,000 students total maybe in it's hay day? And second, how many now do you think are left, since all of these instructors and such have left Ting's organization? Just curious that's all.

Thanks,

James

Armin
10-05-2005, 03:19 AM
Hello sihing,

For many years there has been a LT WT-school in every city and village of Germany. I think, 500,000 students comes very close - Europe only. Worldwide? I have no idea - it didn't go well, neither in the US, nor in Australia, Afrika or even Asia. I guess, 600,00 is getting very close.

And how many there are at the moment, I can only guess, too. Some countries left the EWTO as a whole, others stayed completely. Well, I'd say, that the EWTO lost nearly 50 % of their students - especially due to Sergio Iadarola and Emin Boztepe. These were the real heavy blows to the EWTO.

But to be honest - I believe that the EWTO will 'regain' it's former size. There's place to grow again and the advertisement-machinery is working faster than ever.

LT and KRK reacted very fast - suddenly there were courses available for everyone with LT. For free! A whole weekend with the GGM in a small group. And KRK found another way of selling himself - the new EWTO is very philosophical. He found buddhism and taoism inside himself and he connects these two with the way of a martial artist. Something KRK had been laughing about until 4 or 5 years ago.


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 04:24 AM
Armin,
Thanks for your candor and your willinginess to share.
Ah, yes, and he had some 'bad news' for us ving tsun guys. He told me, that he met some people form Viet Vo Dao who worked on a new style of Viet Vo Dao called 'salamander'. It was using very short movements, giving as few impulses as possible - a style devellopped to 'break' Ving Tsun. That was an interesting thought. He showed some moves to me - very nice. Did he say why they felt they needed a "new style to break Ving Tsun"?

Armin
10-05-2005, 05:14 AM
Cang Long,

well, no. Mabe they felt, that in Viet Vo Dao the stuck too close to the 'long bridge' and to beat Ving Tsun they should rely on 'short bridge'. Hm, that would another real interesting topic - how to beat Ving Tsun.

I think, I'll give it a try.


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 05:41 AM
Several years later, young Kernspecht started searching for some 'real Kung Fu'. He met a teacher in London/GB, that taught something that was called 'wing chun'. But this teacher wasn't willing to let young Kernspecht teach (so the people guess today), that's why he tried to get hold of another one.
Who was this teacher?

Armin
10-05-2005, 10:58 AM
Hello Cang Long!

After hours of searching the internet, I found the answer to your question.

KRKs first sifu was Simon Lau, a student of Lee Shing, who brought Ving Tsun to Gret Britain/Europe in the 1950s.


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 11:26 AM
After hours of searching the internet, I found the answer to your question. Hello Armin,
Didn't mean to cause you to have to work that hard :) but thanks for the answer. Do you know why he Simon Lau wouldn't allow KRK to teach?

Armin
10-05-2005, 11:30 AM
Cang Long,

no, people only guess, that he wasn't willing to let KRK teach. But their could be other reasons, too. A better deal with LT, LT being closer to the source as Simon Lau, ...


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 12:04 PM
Armin Hi,
We have not heard anything publicly about what KRK and LT think about Sifu Iadarola's statement have they said anything publicly about it or do you know what their circle is saying or planning if anything?

Armin
10-05-2005, 12:12 PM
Cang Long,

so far, LT announced, that Sergio Iadarola achieved only few lesons from him - and it seems that Sergio really did finish the weaponless WT. But LT definitely says, that Sergio Iadarola never learned the weapons form him, neither did he tell somebody to teach him the weapons.

They already did something: the possibility to take part in small classes for a weekend with LT for free - where all the secrets should be shown. On EWTO Homepage (http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/) you may even find some video-footage of these tutorials (just go to videos).

Than they do more advertisement on radio, tv and cinema. And suddenly a lot of people start passing the tests for higher ranks.

Further plans? I have no idea - they are secret.


Armin.

Armin
10-05-2005, 12:15 PM
Oh! Here's a second statement of Leung Ting - maybe after he had a long talk with KRK:

Statement (http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/german/weltverband/offizielles/pdf/sergio/statement_sergio_e.pdf)

I hope the link works. If not, try this (http://www.wingtsunwelt.com/german/weltverband/offizielles/sergio.html) and click on english version.


Armin.

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 12:17 PM
Ok thanks Armin I'll read it right now and get back to you....

sihing
10-05-2005, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by Armin
Hello sihing,

For many years there has been a LT WT-school in every city and village of Germany. I think, 500,000 students comes very close - Europe only. Worldwide? I have no idea - it didn't go well, neither in the US, nor in Australia, Afrika or even Asia. I guess, 600,00 is getting very close.

And how many there are at the moment, I can only guess, too. Some countries left the EWTO as a whole, others stayed completely. Well, I'd say, that the EWTO lost nearly 50 % of their students - especially due to Sergio Iadarola and Emin Boztepe. These were the real heavy blows to the EWTO.

But to be honest - I believe that the EWTO will 'regain' it's former size. There's place to grow again and the advertisement-machinery is working faster than ever.

LT and KRK reacted very fast - suddenly there were courses available for everyone with LT. For free! A whole weekend with the GGM in a small group. And KRK found another way of selling himself - the new EWTO is very philosophical. He found buddhism and taoism inside himself and he connects these two with the way of a martial artist. Something KRK had been laughing about until 4 or 5 years ago.


Armin.

Thanks again for you honesty Armin. Another question, when at it's peak, where every member paying something that eventually made it's way to the top for guys like Kernspect or Ting? Like an association fee or something? So for example if there was a association fee of $40 per student that went to Ting or Kernspect, that would be big money if 600,000 students were in the association.

James

Cang Long
10-05-2005, 12:23 PM
Interesting....
So Armin do you think it is helping or is this just the beginning battles of a long war? Reading that it doesn't seem like LT's heart was really in it but that it just one read on it. Europe must be like what now ______________?

Armin
10-05-2005, 12:40 PM
Hello!

@ sihing:

The EWTO, KRK and LT had three different ways of making money.

1st: every student has to pay a monthly fee to his teacher - and a yearly fee to the organisation. The yearly fee is about 40 €, that's 33 US-$. This money is for KRK only.

2nd: the franchise-system. KRK is assigned as 'head of Europe' - he is the only one to decide if somebody is allowed to open a school or not. Therefore you have to 'reserve' a city. That'll pay 50 € per month (42 US-$). Imagine how much money that is - one school in every city and village in Germany!

But this money is not for him alone - he has to pay a franchise-fee to LT. How much? I have no idea - but it must be a huge amount.

3rd (and that's where KRK made the real money!): students had to pass tests. But teachers weren't allow to test every degree - only the uneven degrees (1, 3, 5, 7 and 9). All other tests had to be done bei KRK himself (the even degrees and every test from 10 upward). KRK put the testing into a kind of a 4-hour seminar. The seminar would pay 30 €, the test normally 20 € - making it 50 € (again 42 US-$). Normally there were about 100 to 150 people joining - that would mean 5,000 € (4,166 US-$) to 7,500 € (6,250 US-$) in one single Saturday.


@ Cang Long:

Well, the european ving tsun-community is split into thousand pieces - and war has already begun. But it's not only the 'WT-wars', it's Wong Shun Leung student vs. Wong Shun Leung student, too. As I mentioned.


Armin.

Ben@HFY
10-05-2005, 04:43 PM
Dear All-

First of all thanks to Armin for his compilation of the history of the Leung Ting related organization(s) in Europe.

For the records ... I want add some 'nuances'.

Armin writes about the history of WC in Germany and Europe. Indeed in numbers the LT related organizations are big in European countries (incl. UK, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark and France). The nuance is that it refers to LT related WC only. It is certainly not a general European WC history ...

Other lineages that are present (one longer than the other) in European countries like e.g. UK and the Netherlands: Wang Kiu, Wong Sheung Leung, Victor Kan.

rgds

Ben

Armin
10-06-2005, 01:48 AM
Hello Ben,

well, you are right - Somewhere in my post and in one of my answers there's the hint, that there was already Wing Chun in GB (the Simon Lau-answer).

The facts I gave may be a little 'german-sided'. But you have to admitt, that without the efforts of LT, KRK and the EWTO all other lineages wouldn't play the part the play now, right? Before the EWTO, all Wing Chun-lineages 'hid in the shadow' and it took decades for them to get out of the shadows due to the incredibly strong impacting marketing of the EWTO.

Even today, about 50 % to 70 % of 'freshman', who try to inform themselves, get caught by the advertisement of the EWTO and it's twisted facts. (One day a new student wanted to see my certificate from the government - because his former WT-sifu told him, that only WT-teachers have such things; in fact, there is no such certificate from the government.)

They may have been the second on the market - but thy are no. 1 for sure. Sad, I know. :(

Thanks for the additional 'nuances' - even if they play no real role over here ;)


Armin.


PS: sorry, this shouldn't be sounding like you weren't right - we are lucky that there are more and more other lineages on the market. In Europe, everything is very close related to the history of the EWTO. That's something, the US-citizens never happened to have the 'pleasure' of that. Lucky as they are.

Hungman
10-06-2005, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Armin
Hi to all!

As a speciel x-mas-present to hungman and hoping that Cang Long has his coffee ready, I try to give you all more details of how 'the scene' developped in Germany and Europe.


Feel free to question!!!


Armin.


Hi Armin
It's best to avoid eating solid foods before X-mas, occasional hot fudge sundaes will not add up (you know where) as fast as daily hot fudge sundaes. By the way, do KRK and LT like hot fudge sundaes? :D


HM

Ben@HFY
10-10-2005, 01:43 PM
Hi Armin-

Yes, you're right.

Especially for our US-citizens on this forum, still the majority I believe, I felt the urge to come up with the 'nuances'.

At the same time, you are absolutely right when you state:"In Europe, everything is very close related to the history of the EWTO. That's something, the US-citizens never happened to have the 'pleasure' of that. Lucky as they are."

Imo ... it all has to do with the fact that reality is rarely pure black or white ... Dealing with reality sometimes requires often understanding many different shades of grey.

rgds

Ben

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