How to beat Ving Tsun?

[Armin]

Ok, here it is.

Starting from a style to 'beat Ving Tsun', let's collect ideas of how to do that.

First, we got to know how Ving Tsun works and where the weaknesses lie. Therefore I'd like to separate the description of how Ving Tsun works in two different parts: theory and praxis.

In theory, Ving Tsun uses the shortest ways between an attacker and the own body, thus letting the practitioner always hit earlier than the attacker. To be able to do this, the Ving Tsun-man has to control the center, because that's where the shortest distance(s) is (are). On the other hand, controlling the center means, that the Ving Tsun-fighter controlls his own space, too, making it impossible for the attacker to get through and land the punch.

Do we agree so far? Of course, I keep it very simple, but it get's very close to what we do.

In praxis, there will be some problems. If the attacker attacks from the center - the own hand on the center will deflect/intercept/rerout the attack. But other systems don't attack from the center - they attack from outside (shoulders) to the endpoint of the center.

Why is that a problem - the Ving Tsun guy still has the shorter distance and could hit earlier. And that's the problem! This only works, if the Ving Tsun guy attacks at the same instance or slightly later (remember: we are talking of 1/100 and 1/1000 secs!). So here's the first problem: the timing. If not timed well, all the movements will go into nothing and the attacker will hit first.

The way of punching is an equal problem. If you train a lot with Ving Tsun people, you get a big problem. They are used to let their ellbows down, giving you the opportunity to still make contact and defend yourself, even if you where much more slower than your partner. Boxers for example, lift their ellbows. This is like punching over the bong sao. There is no impulse and most of the time even no contact. You send out your hands - and you get hit, without even knowing where the punch came from.

So, here's the 2nd problem: most Ving Tsun guys keep their hands or their man sao/wu sao too low.

Finally the 3rd problem. If you ask your partner to attack you, how will he move? Normally, he will do a straight step forward and do some kind of attack. A good boxer will do something you all know as '6 gates against 3 gates'. He will do a step forward and to the side - and he will do his punch coming from the outside. Imagine: your partner standing right in fornt of you. He stepps forward and to the left (from your view) and he will do a slightly curved straight with his right hand.

Now, everything is coming from your 'blind side', where there's no wu sao/man sao.

So, the problem here: not used to very movable attackers.

Wait a minute! Take a look at it again - it's all a problem of not being used to it! Because you didn't tell your partner to act like this. You work Ving Tsun vs. Ving Tsun - but it should be Ving Tsun vs. Boxer, Ving Tsun vs. Karate, Ving Tsun vs. whatever.

And that's what's meant with 'Kung Fu Live' - you will never make your Ving Tsun work, if you don't experience the sparring with a lot of differents stylists. Than your system works.

But than, you will see something totally different. You see, that it's not the system fighting - it's you using the system as a tool. And now it depends on yourself if you win or loose the fight - this may be the first time, that you really face your 'real self'!

Again: you see, it's not the system. So, finally amd to keep it short, there can be no system 'breaking' Ving Tsun. Ving Tsun is a tool as different others are, too. It's the person who uses the tool, that causes the result.


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Why is that a problem - the Ving Tsun guy still has the shorter distance and could hit earlier. And that's the problem! This only works, if the Ving Tsun guy attacks at the same instance or slightly later (remember: we are talking of 1/100 and 1/1000 secs!). So here's the first problem: the timing. If not timed well, all the movements will go into nothing and the attacker will hit first. Why wouldn't the WC guy counter he obviously sees this attack coming?

[Armin]

Cang Long,

hm, really? You know me, I'm not the exaggerating type - I can bridge a gap of more or less 1.5 meters with a step and a punch - only four people I ever met could defend against that. The fact is, there are people that move so fast, you just don't see it coming.

Now you say, that the Wing Chun guy could attack first - that would make it even easier for the sidestep-thing in part 3. The timing is critical - and if you are not used to the timing of the different systems, you loose.


Armin.

[sihing]

When I teach a introductory lesson to people coming into the school to check things out I like to mention how scientific Wing Chun is. One of the things I like to show them is the Man/Wu sao and how it operates to basically slow your opponent down (our Man/Wu sao is designed to protect most of the upper gates so it is not considered to low, fingers point up and are relatively nose height). The first key against a faster fighter, is one to slow them down by putting a barrier of some sort up between you and them. In WC's case we try to make them come around the barrier, therefore using a rounder/longer movement. Secondly, if an opponent can hit me with his rounder/longer movement, that means I can also hit him at the same time with straighter/shorter movement (which are faster movements, meaning that I as a human being with limitations I do not have to be "Bruce Lee" fast to punch fast). Thirdly, you have to know what to watch to indicate a attack or movement towards you. We advocate watching the elbows and knees (since these are basically the only tools used by humans to attack with). GM Cheung proved through scientific testing back in the 80's that the elbow moves 2 1/2 times slower than the fist on the straight punches and 4 times slower on the rounder ones. Concerning kicks, the knee has to move to allow one to kick properly, so the same principal applies, the knees are slower than the foot and are easier to see and deflect.

What does all of these things listed above do for one? They make your opponent in essence "SLOWER" than they are, and you more able to apply your WC tools to them faster and in a safer environment.

I agree with Armin, in the end you as the individual have to be able to apply the WC tools you have learned from whatever lineage you are a part of. But if the system is based on simplicity and proper scientific movements, it is easier to learn and easier to maintain once learned.

James