Added confusion in the Wing Chun Community

[BennyMeng]

When Rene was proclaiming to be a researcher of Wing Chun, he put a lot of information out there without personal experience or first-hand contact. It was mostly based on what he read and videotapes. Now that I took the effort to really put forth a theory on the origins of Wing Chun, he's ignored it and gone in a different direction: writing a fictitious novel about Wing Chun’s origins.

Within my theory, we were the first one’s to state that the true origins of Wing Chun go beyond the Red Boat and actually reside in the Secret Societies that trace all the way to the Southern Shaolin Temple. As a matter of fact, Rene and his friends often attack the Secret Society theory, saying the societies were criminals and low-life thugs. However, we know that many of the society members were actually heroes willing to die for a cause.

A couple of things I noticed right away – the book uses places like the Hung Fa Ting, secret societies like the Hung Gun Wui, and it mixes in more fictional characters than actually exist in the folklore of Wing Chun history. One example is that it says the Five Elders held a meeting in the Hung Fa Ting. How convenient to use information from the HFY families and mix it together with the myths of the Five Elders. The Five Elders stems from a time after the destruction of the Southern Shaolin Temple, while the Hung Fa Ting was a gathering place for the Hung Fa Wui – which was headed by Chiu Yun, a descendant of the Ming Royal Family that became a revolutionary. No one has mentioned about the Hung Fa Ting, Hung Fa Wui or Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun until Grand Master Gee released it to the public. Now, this so-called “acclaimed author” is going to tarnish the historical facts with even more fictional illusions. Before I go into more details, I would like everyone else to have a chance to see and share your thoughts.

Legends of Wing Chun (http://www.remnant-hunter.com/legendsofwingchun/)

[Cang Long]

Meng Sigung,
It would appear once again that Rene can't seem to focus his thoughts or ideas in a cohesive manner indicative of any contemporary narrative prose. Take the title for instance if the story focuses on the life of a girl related to legend then its hard to get to the Embers of Shaolin. The book is either about the story of Wing Chun or the legend of Shaolin not both if you know the legend then each story is a seperate issue so the later portion of the title would appear to be somewhat misleading knowing the legend juxtaposed against what we where able to read so far.

Rene's inability to find another reliable source of knowledge to cross reference against hendrik's obvious input would also appear to be another set back to the project there are only so many ways of saying the same thing.A couple of things I noticed right away – the book uses places like the Hung Fa Ting, secret societies like the Hung Gun Wui, and it mixes in more fictional characters than actually exist in the folklore of Wing Chun history... ...Now, this so-called “acclaimed author” is going to tarnish the historical facts with even more fictional illusions. Sigung, no doubt there will be many liberties taken. The book Complete Wing Chun set the table because now Rene is being touted as an "acclaimed martial arts author" when in fact by having to give credit to Y. Wu on the book Complete Wing Chun that alone illustrates that neither Robert nor Rene are acclaimed researchers or authors and just as well neither of his previous books was written in the novel format so again this is a fish out of water. None of Rene's previous writings suggest he has enough history, knowledge or background of Chinese Culture or Etiquette required to convey the necessary intricacies across the boundaries of east and west to support a project of this magnitude and what has been posted so far supports these comments. When reading a period piece placed in Asia you would like to get the sense of Asia during that time while reading the posted pieces that just does not happen in this case so far.

[mario bava]

Hello There

Grandmaster Gee revealed the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun system and it's history to the world. Master Meng's independent research supports this lineage history very strongly. Rene seems to have jumped on the bandwagon and used it for his fictional tale. I hope like all 'acclaimed authors' Rene will acknowledge his sources and highlight where the terms 'Hung Fa Ting' and 'Hung Fa Wui' have come from.

Cheerio, Gary

[BennyMeng]

Historically, in many locations I’ve mentioned that the Southern Shaolin temple exists and was found by archeologists. The Chinese Government went so far as the state that the discovery of the Southern Shaolin Temple was the most significant event in the martial arts community. Just as significant was the discovery of the physical Hung Fa Ting.

I guess with this reality, many serious researches of Wing Chun will not ignore these facts. So I guess that’s why the acclaimed author would borrow these facts in bits and pieces and use them for his business venture instead of benefiting the Wing Chun community by shedding more light into history. As most would agree – since GM Gee decided to come out with this system, the name has spread all over the world and it’s a Wing Chun system that no one can ignore. The HFY system has contributed much original and cutting-edge information that did not previously exist in the public. But this so-called acclaimed author and his group of expert friends continue to write about Wing Chun history and don’t even mention about HFY at all. It’s funny how this group of people accused me and GM Gee of creating this system for financial gains years ago and here one of them is now deliberately mixing things up for profit. I think they might offer a package deal where you buy a book and get a free t-shirt on the “Wing Chun Archives.”

[Cang Long]

originally posted by Jim R.
If memory serves me correctly I believe Mr. Blanco was also asked at one point to give credit to the source of the info., remove it or something like that by Mr. Hagood.
Jim,
You seem to be able to understand how someone not giving proper credit or respect can be problematic yet you’re totally willing to misrepresent the situation when Rene is the one taking credit for things that the Hung Fa Yi family brought to the public that were later independently corroborated by the Ving Tsun Museum. The information of the Weng Chun Tong, Hung FA Ting, Hung Fa Wui {Red Flower Society}, the names Chiu Yuen, Da Jung and Cheung Ng as well as other important points of Hung Fa Yi history and traditions were all provided to the VTM via the Hung Fa Yi family and as a result lead to countless hours of direct research by the VTM in the U.S as well as in China starting Dec 6-10 1998 to the present culminating in the theory connecting Shaolin and Wing Chun first introduced to the public in the form of many published articles directly from the VTM.
“Also during this time, Cheng Sing Kung, one of the last surviving Ming generals, fled to the island of Formosa taking it over from the Dutch in 1662. It was then that he established the revolutionary society Tien Dei Wui {Heaven and Earth society} which was the counterpart of the Hung Fa Wui {Red Flower Society} on the mainland. The Hung Fa Wui was an underground Anti-Manchurian society based in Shaolin. In Shaolin, the Hung Fa Wui had a special gathering place called the Hung Fa Ting {Red Flower Court}. This was a great meeting hall where Ming loyalists gathered and discussed political strategies to overthrow the Manchurians and the fall of the Ching Dynasty.” –Nov. 1999

http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/hungfayi.php
http://home.vtmuseum.org/timeline/1998.php


Finally later the efforts of the VTM and those of the HFY family came together to produce the book Mastering Kung Fu. See pg.20

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showproduct.cfm?isbn=0736045686

Robert Chu Rene Ritchie nor hendrik agreed with the result of their findings or put much credence in the research performed by the VTM. It was 3 years later after denouncing the findings of the VTM at the same time attempting to discredit VTM Curator Master Benny Meng did their true intentions surface. As had been prescribed by them in the past they would once again try to gain notoriety and profit using those very same findings later on in their own personal writings never once attempting to give proper credit to those who provided the information that lead to the research or the researchers themselves. Rene’s new book and previously published articles are proof of just that.

“Eventually, Zhang took on a number of Red Junk performers as disciples, and founded the Qianghua Huiguan (King Fa Wui Goon, Precious Jade Flower Union) Hall, in some accounts referred to as the Honghua Huiguan (Hung Fa Wui Goon, Red Flower Union), at Dajiwei (Dai Gei Mei), where he taught the traditional Jianghu Shiba Ben (Gong Wu Sup Baat Bun,” Aug-Sep 2002

…and the oral and written histories of Cho Family, Sum Nung, Yip Man, Pan Nam, Gulao, and other branches of wing chun kuen.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=539

Jim,
The Hung Fa Yi family name and the VTM were both purposely left off that credits list because of the author’s previous public denouncement of those same findings.
Robert Rene and hendrik have built up a reputation and history of this kind of behavior which would indicate a total lack of understanding of even basic Kung Fu etiquette as you previously suggest yourself. You were right to think of it as wrong earlier and just as right to see it as being wrong in this particular instance.

[Hungman]

About this charecter Rene Ritchie...

Nothing is so admirable in politics as a short memory.



Well all I can say is that you are allowed to go to hfy108 and read such postings. When I had identified myself as a student of hfy on rr's forum I was quickly taken off. I tried to get back on but was denied access for reasons I was not privleged to. I have not let it get undermy skin though. It was a long time ago and I have since moved forward from that.
Marty R.



Marty R - Forgive me for not remembering you but you, as any WCK practitioner of any lineage, were always, are always, and will always be welcome on any forum I admin.

And if you have any problem whatsoever getting on any of them at any time, just ping me and let me know and I'll get you on asap. If you don't trust email, drop me a post here, private or public, and I'll get you on asap. Same goes for anyone/everyone else.

Andrew - No worries, everything apps!
__________________
Rene Ritchie
Legends of Wingchun
Wing Chun Archives


Thanks for the reply Rene but it was a few years ago and I did do what you had asked then and got denied a couple of times but still was denied. As I had said before I have moved on from that and not once said anything bad about you or the wck site . All that was said was what had happened to me personally. If they still want to take pot shots at me for not saying anything negative in the first place then we know the stature of that person. Once again thank you for the reply.
Marty R.


http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38997

[Hungman]

There is nothing new under the sun.


http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1224

[Hungman]

I guess with this reality, many serious researches of Wing Chun will not ignore these facts. So I guess that’s why the acclaimed author would borrow these facts in bits and pieces and use them for his business venture instead of benefiting the Wing Chun community by shedding more light into history. As most would agree – since GM Gee decided to come out with this system, the name has spread all over the world and it’s a Wing Chun system that no one can ignore. The HFY system has contributed much original and cutting-edge information that did not previously exist in the public. But this so-called acclaimed author and his group of expert friends continue to write about Wing Chun history and don’t even mention about HFY at all.


There are people who say I have never really done anything wrong in my life; of course, they only say it behind the HFY Wing Chun lineage and Master Benny Meng's back.

[Op108wc]

No one can deny that much of our modern advertising is essentially dishonest; and it can hardly be maintained that to lie freely and all the time for private profit is not to abuse the right of free speech.


Legends of Wingchun






Hi Cang Long,
What else do we know about them? Most people go through three Santa Claus stages. First, you believe in Santa Claus. Then, you don't believe in Santa Claus. Finally, you are Santa Claus.

Santa Claus said, "Never play cards with a man called Doc. Never eat in a place called Mon's. Never sleep with a woman called Rene."

Rene - No worries, J/K!


Originally posted by Cang Long
[B]Robert Chu Rene Ritchie nor hendrik agreed with the result of their findings or put much credence in the research performed by the VTM. It was 3 years later after denouncing the findings of the VTM at the same time attempting to discredit VTM Curator Master Benny Meng did their true intentions surface. As had been prescribed by them in the past they would once again try to gain notoriety and profit using those very same findings later on in their own personal writings never once attempting to give proper credit to those who provided the information that lead to the research or the researchers themselves. Rene’s new book and previously published articles are proof of just that.

[duende]

Posted by Rene on KFO...

CFT - Hung Fa Wui was first mentioned in the West in the Yip Chun article in Geneology of the Ving Tsun Family and then by Eddie Chong & Michael Nedderman in an Inside Kung-Fu article on the late Pan Nam sifu EDITED TO INCLUDE LINK TO ARTICLE. Both were based on Pan Nam's accounts, which also included the first Western references to Cheung Ng, the Red Turban uprising, Yip Man-Ching (sic) burning the opera, etc. and were based on the previous Chinese articles by a (non-Wing Chun) reporter who visited Pan Nam sifu and included some very interesting theories which tried to tie together the various elements into broader history and background. There was also a Japanese article way back then too with a very interesting family tree along similar lines.


Rene's trying to confuse people once again. Hung Fa Wui and Hung Gun Wui are not the same.

Hung Fa Wui= Five Elders
Hung Gun Wui=Secret Societies

They are two very distinct historical references.

Hung Gun Wui was NOT presented in the article Rene refers to and was never before made public until HFY went public.

[Op108wc]

Place: Hung Fa Ting (Southern Shaolin Temple)
Hung Fa Wui -- Chiu Yuen & Da Jung

Place: Foshan
Hung Fa Wui Kwoon -- Cheung Ng

Places: Foshan & Fukien & Canton
Hung Gun Wui -- Hung Gun Biu and the Red Boxers

[Cang Long]

originally posted by duende
Hung Gun Wui was NOT presented in the article Rene refers to and was never before made public until HFY went public. again.....None of Rene's previous writings suggest he has enough history, knowledge or background of Chinese Culture or Etiquette required to convey the necessary intricacies across the boundaries of east and west to support a project of this magnitude and what has been posted so far supports these comments.

[Op108wc]

He criticized Master Meng, gave his views on every subject. He was not satisfied with anything. He complained continually. But from his never-ending grievances, I learnt one thing: There was nothing in his own life that he was not satisfied with. He looked on his third book as the greatest possible happiness. He was pleased with this new toy of his. He loved his new fictional tale --"Legends of Wingchun."



Originally posted by Cang Long
again.....None of Rene's previous writings suggest he has enough history, knowledge or background of Chinese Culture or Etiquette required to convey the necessary intricacies across the boundaries of east and west to support a project of this magnitude and what has been posted so far supports these comments.

[Op108wc]

That's a fair statement. Jim's so conceited about everything. He doesn't like listening to advice.



Originally posted by Cang Long
Jim,
You seem to be able to understand how someone not giving proper credit or respect can be problematic yet you’re totally willing to misrepresent the situation when Rene is the one taking credit for things that the Hung Fa Yi family brought to the public that were later independently corroborated by the Ving Tsun Museum. The information of the Weng Chun Tong, Hung FA Ting, Hung Fa Wui {Red Flower Society}, the names Chiu Yuen, Da Jung and Cheung Ng as well as other important points of Hung Fa Yi history and traditions were all provided to the VTM via the Hung Fa Yi family and as a result lead to countless hours of direct research by the VTM in the U.S as well as in China starting Dec 6-10 1998 to the present culminating in the theory connecting Shaolin and Wing Chun first introduced to the public in the form of many published articles directly from the VTM.

[Cang Long]

people please take note.

Place: Hung Fa Ting (Southern Shaolin Temple)
Hung Fa Wui -- Chiu Yuen & Da Jung

Place: Foshan
Hung Fa Wui Kwoon -- Cheung Ng

Places: Foshan & Fukien & Canton
Hung Gun Wui -- Hung Gun Biu and the Red Boxers Rene's book and articles hendriks post if not for the Hung Fa Yi family would they even have anything to discuss!

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

This thread reveals a lot about Rene, and it is very dissapointing. He, along with cloudy and Robert Chu, says :

'and the oral and written histories of Cho Family, Sum Nung, Yip Man, Pan Nam, Gulao, and other branches of wing chun kuen.'

Why is there no mention of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, Master Benny Meng or the VTM research team in those credits? A look at the history of these men may provide a reason why Hung Fa Yi and the VTM are missing from the credits.

1 -I am aware that Rene did not agree at all with the original findings of the VTM, which were in turn based on information provided by the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun family. Then, as his articles show, he recycles this info and does not even refer to the source. He has used the information provided by the VTM after he originally went against it. This suggests a motive for not giving the credit to the Hung Fa Yi family, or to Master Meng and his VTM research team.
2 - I am aware that Robert Chu, in the past, visited the Hung Fa Kwoon in San Francisco. As a matter of coincidence, shortly after these visits, it is said the terms that convey the 5 Battle Arrays of Hung Fa Yi turned up on his web-site, albeit with now differing explanations due to the fact he did not understand the Hung Fa Yi concepts at all. These 5 Battle Arrays were not in the public language in relation to Wing Chun at this stage, but yet surfaced on the site - with no reference to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun.
3 - I am aware that shortly after the publication of the Mastering Kung Fu Book, Hendrik then revealed his 3 Level Models to the public. It is said that this was a reaction to Saam Mo Kiu of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. One of these 'stages' in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is referred to as 'Awareness' - I have noticed cloudy seems to talk about awareness a lot these days.
4 - Apparently, a member of the Hung Fa Yi family was removed from a forum admin-ed by Rene. Marty R says - 'When I had identified myself as a student of hfy on rr's forum I was quickly taken off. I tried to get back on but was denied access for reasons I was not privleged to'. This is a very sad state of affairs.

These episodes reveal why there is no recognition of the genuine contribution from the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun family, nor of the hard work carried out by Master Meng and the VTM research team.

All in all, Rene's aforementioned article lists many differing sources. I have seen the use of the word 'turban' in those articles - Chinese culture suggests that 'Bandana' is a more accurate and representative word. The Hung Fa Yi lineage in contrast, as Cang Long points out, clearly and logically pinpoints Wing Chun's journey down through history from the time of the Shaolin Temple to the modern day -

Place: Hung Fa Ting (Southern Shaolin Temple)
Hung Fa Wui -- Chiu Yuen & Da Jung

Place: Foshan
Hung Fa Wui Kwoon -- Cheung Ng

Places: Foshan & Fukien & Canton
Hung Gun Wui -- Hung Gun Biu and the Red Boxers

This information came from the Hung Fa Yi family and was reported and investigated in many articles and physical research journeys through the VTM team under Master Meng.
The Hung Fa Yi family 100% deserves credit for the information it revealed. The VTM fully deserve credit for research and information revealed to the public for the first time ever.

Rene, Robert and Hendrik can't bring themselves to do that, and that is very disappointing.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[mario bava]

Hello There

The Hungman knows exactly what has happened in the past regarding my previous post.
The VTM under Master Meng independently researches Wing Chun history and is open to the public for anyone from any lineage to contact or visit. I met Master Meng myself and he spent many days telling me about his research - where he has travelled, who he has met and what he has learned. He truly runs an objective organisation of which he is rightly proud. So why then would Rene, Robert and Hendrik act in the way they have in the past?

Originally posted by Hungman
There are people who say I have never really done anything wrong in my life; of course, they only say it behind the HFY Wing Chun lineage and Master Benny Meng's back.

What does the Hungman mean? Well, I am aware that in the past, a certain Master of a certain Shaolin system wished to visit the VTM. On hearing this, Rene, Robert and Hendrik sent secretive, private e-mails to this Master, telling him not to go anywhere near Master Meng, nor the museum. Why would they do this? This is purely childish, unprofessional, biased and unacceptable behaviour.
These group of guys also spread so many rumours and negative comments about a certain Wing Chun lineage on their private mailing list, again also attacking Master Meng in private, or unfortunaltely for them so they thought. This behaviour is not proper ettiquette.
Mentioning ettiquette, I see KPM has been suggesting that a certain Wing Chun lineage lacks ettiquette - if he has any, he wouldn't be doing what he is - recycling the same old private mailing list rumours and negative attacks about this certain Wing Chun lineage.
So many eye-witness members of the Hung Fa Yi family have been telling me about all of these past events - this type of behaviour is not on.

Cheerio, Gary


www.hungfayiireland.com

[mario bava]

Hello There

Having chatted to many of my Sihing-dai about cloudy's behaviours, one coincidence that astounded me was that shortly after the Mastering Kung Fu Book revealed the Tien Yan Dei concept of Wing Chun, it seems that cloudy then revealed this '3 Level Model' concept of his own.....
Master Meng contributed to that book ( MKF ), and his years of objective research, involving 1000's of travelled miles, many, many chats with many, many Wing Chun Masters, correspondence with Chinese Officials etc. have yielded many wonderful results. This work was carried out in order to honestly and objectively document the history of Wing Chun. His VTM now houses many extensive articles on his findings, and the timeline from the beginning of the Museum shows how much work has been done. It is plain to see what Master Meng's mission is - objective, genuine research.
Rene seems to be following a different path - he seems to be putting his energy into producing fictional tales based on many different bits and pieces of info he has come across. As we say in Ireland 'Good luck to him' - if that is what he wishes to do in life, that's his business. Maybe in the future, he would like to be involved in other areas of the fictional world, such as movies or tv. That's up to him, but the purpose of this post is to highlight how it is important that people are able to distinguish between genuine research ( Master Meng ) and fictional tales ( Rene ) - both are 100% fine paths, but for the Wing Chun community, I feel it is important to educate the public about the difference between the two, so that there is no chance of 'Added confusion in the Wing Chun Community'.
In relation to factual information, Grandmaster Gee has contributed a lot to the martial art community in his time, and deserves more credit than he has recieved so far. GM Gee has seen roles as a Newspaper Columnist allow him to provide genuine informations to the public, and he still holds a wealth of knowledge on Wing Chun in connection with the Secret Societies, which in the future will be revealed in a factual book to be penned by GM Gee himself. This book will be a factual document and I look forward to its coming.

In time, the facts and the fictions will be recognised by the Wing Chun community, and it will be all the better for it.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[HFY Eagle]

Cheers Gary my friend. I couldn't agree with you more on what you've written.

Do you know what's funny? When Hendrick reads MKF, which uses the terms of Tien Yan Dei (Heaven, Human and Earth) and susequently posts his Sky, Human and Earth concept it really makes me laugh. He has a tendency to recycle and regurgitate what others have writeen and he can really make me "LOL".

Keep up the good work overseas.

Cheerio -

John

[Cang Long]

Sibakgung,

HFY Eagle,
Nice to see you again and yes you are right imitation is the sincerest form of flattery there is and hendrik has the market cornered on that for sure of course he got it from Robert Chu and his attempt to try and comprehend the 5 battle arrays of combat without any formal hou cheun san sau. Also I too get a good laugh from reading hendrik speak of "sky" human and earth you have to really be blind not to see through his purposefully enigmatic posts of deception. As the family releases more information it will be interesting to see how he tries to incorporate even more of this info in to his own jargon after disputing ever bit of it of course. ;)

[Op108wc]

Are these actions necessary for Hendrik to get his names in line with his major global competitors?



I am aware that shortly after the publication of the Mastering Kung Fu Book, Hendrik then revealed his 3 Level Models to the public. It is said that this was a reaction to Saam Mo Kiu of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. One of these 'stages' in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is referred to as 'Awareness' - I have noticed cloudy seems to talk about awareness a lot these days.

[Cang Long]

originally posted by Benny Meng
A couple of things I noticed right away – the book uses places like the Hung Fa Ting, secret societies like the Hung Gun Wui, and it mixes in more fictional characters than actually exist in the folklore of Wing Chun history. One example is that it says the Five Elders held a meeting in the Hung Fa Ting. How convenient to use information from the HFY families and mix it together with the myths of the Five Elders. The Five Elders stems from a time after the destruction of the Southern Shaolin Temple, while the Hung Fa Ting was a gathering place for the Hung Fa Wui – which was headed by Chiu Yun, a descendant of the Ming Royal Family that became a revolutionary. No one has mentioned about the Hung Fa Ting, Hung Fa Wui or Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun until Grand Master Gee released it to the public. Now, this so-called “acclaimed author” is going to tarnish the historical facts with even more fictional illusions. Before I go into more details, I would like everyone else to have a chance to see and share your thoughts. While Master Meng is away in China doing actual research there are just a few points that should be added to this message and he can also address them upon his return. A majority of the research of the Ving Tsun Museum was in direct response to the history of Hung Fa Yi supplied to the Museum by Grandmaster Garrett Gee. Grandmaster Gee is to be commended for sharing his wealth of knolwledge with the Museum and the VTM is to be commended for their research and subsequent articles and book bringing to light much about Wing Chun's hidden past to the public for the first time.

Enter Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie with their book of Complete Wing Chun and articles that followed. Which do exaclty as Master Meng suggest add confusion and sending mixed signals of contradictions about an already difficult topic. Recently while explaining to a reader on KFO that none of the research done by the VTM was used in his upcoming book Rene wrote...For the sake of clarity, exactly nothing used in thise book was ever first publically mentioned by the VTM. Their research, while excellent in its own right, is simply not applicable to a work based on the Yim Wingchun legend. Their origins stories, as they themselves point out, follow a very different path.
Rene is diliberately being disingenuous because the VTM and the Hung Fa Yi firstly have never objected to his using this information only expecting minimal recognition for their work like that given to the Yuen Kay Shan, Yip Man and Gu Lo Families which he has always been unwilling to do. Secondly Rene has been told repeatedly that there is a difference between the original Hung Fa Wui and the Hung Fa Wui Goon but he refuses to acknowledge this fact because there are no records or books to point to acknowledging this historical fact before Grandmaster Gee shared it with the VTM and that is why he repeatedly purposefully continues this charade of misleading statements or outright denial whichever best suites the situation...originally posted by Rene Ritchie
Not to polute the discussion with facts, but on page 14 of the Yuen Kay-San book (1997, Unique Publications), it also says "Histories of the Guangdong Opera hold that Red Junk Companies were organized into the Hung Fa Wui Goon (Red Flower Union) in the 1730s by Northern Opera and Siu Lam (Shaolin) practitioner Cheung Ng..." The argument that he is using information first uncovered and verified by the VTM is not limited to his upcoming book because it has yet to be released but several of his past articles are and if the pattern preceeding the book were to continue then it is only logical to expect more of these past antics of confusion, poor judgment and misuse of existing records.

Secret Societies article by Rene Ritchie (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=80)

This article is seriously misleading on several levels the title tries to make the connection between Wing Chun and the Secret Societies but does a very poor job. Grandmaster Gee by providing the VTM with the Hung Fa Yi family tree establishes the only Wing Chun Kuen connecton to any secret society The research of the VTM supports the establishment of this connection. This is somethng no other wing chun family tree claims so why even write the article without addressing this fact. The article also uses the term Hung Fa Ting information once again provided to the VTM by the Hung Fa Yi family, then there is the misuse of the term Red Bandana seen in the article as Red Turban and neglect for crediting either the VTM or the Hung Fa Yi family. In general at the release time of this article the ideas behind the article ran parallel to the findings of the Ving Tsun Museum and it's research team.

Fist of the Red Junk Opera (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezine/article.php?article=539)

While this next article too is in step with the findings of the VTM it presented no new information beyond that provided the VTM by Grandmaster Gee previous to the release of this article, as Rene himself states. Later as the VTM research articles start to mount and with a book in the works Robert Chu's and Rene's position start to shift away from that of the Ving Tsun Museum and the information provided by Grandmaster Gee. Suddenly Chueng Ng, and Hung Gun Biu fall out of favor with these authors and the story of Ng's his polio hand starts to enter the picture with more regularity while Hung Gun Biu's existance is questioned when before the publishing of Complete Wing Chun it was said CWC Introduction
The doors of Wing Chun, however, were never this closed, nor the line this limited. Over the generations, many highly skilled masters of the past have learned the art, contributed enormously to its development, and passed along their knowledge. Yet, masters such as Cheung "Tan Sao" Ng and many of the Red Junk actors like "Dai Fa Min" Kam, "Gao Lo" Chung, "Hung Gan" Biu and their descendents have disappeared entirely from all but a very few records.

Even though they will admit to not having found any new information now more and more Rene speaks of Chinese history in general out of context as it relates to that of the history of WCK and in one of his articles trying to place the secret societies in a negative light Robert has been quoted as saying "no offense to secret societies" producing statements rejecting not only the findings of the VTM but those of their own. Rene and Robert both have taken a liking to hendrik's theory of White Crane though neither of them can connect that to the secret societies they themselves wrote of in the past. So yes clearly the confusion they reportedly wanted to clear up before the writing of Complete Wing Chun has lost it's luster in favor of some different or higher momentary mission but instead of helping the cause they appear to be hendering the cause on purpose with these attacks on the VTM, forum post counter to HFY and the information it is sharing, mixed messages and direct contradictions of their own earlier writings.

[Op108wc]

Through the afflictions of desire, hatred and ignorance, contaminated Karma (actions) are performed, which establish potencies in the mind in the form of predisposition. -- by the Fouthteen Dalai Lama



Originally posted by mario bava
What does the Hungman mean? Well, I am aware that in the past, a certain Master of a certain Shaolin system wished to visit the VTM. On hearing this, Rene, Robert and Hendrik sent secretive, private e-mails to this Master, telling him not to go anywhere near Master Meng, nor the museum. Why would they do this? This is purely childish, unprofessional, biased and unacceptable behaviour.

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by mario bava

Master Meng contributed to that book ( MKF ), and his years of objective research, involving 1000's of travelled miles, many, many chats with many, many Wing Chun Masters, correspondence with Chinese Officials etc. have yielded many wonderful results. This work was carried out in order to honestly and objectively document the history of Wing Chun. His VTM now houses many extensive articles on his findings, and the timeline from the beginning of the Museum shows how much work has been done. It is plain to see what Master Meng's mission is - objective, genuine research.

www.hungfayiireland.com



http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1260

[Mark Andrews]

As an impartial observer and a new member of this forum I thought it was about time to speak my mind after more hypocritical on-line postings from a so-called “authority” of Wing Chun on another new Wing Chun forum.

This “authority” writes about people defrauding the general public and making up their own version of Wing Chun etc, etc, etc…… He talks about virtue and family unity etc, etc, etc….. If you didn’t know any better, you’d think he really is an “authority” the way he writes.

Who’s kidding who? The general public needs to know what this person is really about:

- This is the same person who was disowned by his sifu, sifu Lee. Why is this?

- This is the same person who was rejected by is Sigung when approached for training and for the next 20 years has continued to bad mouth his Sigung. Why is this?

- This is the same person who has called a well known Wing Chun sifu a pimp and a drug dealer. Why is this?

- This is the same person who claimed to be teaching a Yip Man style of Wing Chun when he was not. One of his students attended a seminar in the US that was held by a Shaolin Master as well as Master Benny Meng. The funny thing is that Meng sifu could not recognize this persons kung fu as Yip Man but the Shaolin Master DID recognize the style as Chi Sim. I believe this “authority” had taken a few classes from the Shaolin Master in the past. Why is this?

- This is the same “authority” who claimed that Meng Sifu was one of his students. I found out later that this was not true and that Meng sifu made a visit to interview this “authority”, nothing else. Why is this?

Instead of staring into his computer screen this “authority” should stare into a big mirror.

Cheerio from an impartial observer!!!!!

The “Picker”

[Op108wc]

The best way a Buddhist can keep the teachings of the Buddha alive is to live mindfully in the way the Buddha and his community lived.

Is this “authority” a Buddhist?



Instead of staring into his computer screen this “authority” should stare into a big mirror.

[mario bava]

Hello There

I have been training in Wing Chun here in Ireland for many years, and had the privilege of meeting many genuine martial artists when I was allowed to visit the Ving Tsun Museum in 2004.
Unfortunately, I also have had the displeasure of finding out that there is a lot of negative politics involved in the world-wide Wing Chun community, and that the Wing Chun Legend, Master X, is one of the prime contributors to this negativity.
Over here in Ireland and Europe, it seems that there is growing disquiet about this Master X, a man who has never shied away from making negative comments about many people and lineages over a long period of time. The following facts highlight illustrate this fact, as does Mark's post.
Master X began his training in Yip Man Wing Chun many years ago, and after some time he asked to be taught weapons. His then Sifu declined to do this, informing him that his si-hingdai must learn first. Following this, Master X then went to his then Sigung and asked for the same treatment. Eventually this Sigung, a world famous Wing Chun master, rejected him. As a reaction to this, Master X then spent almost 20 years attacking his Sigung in articles and forums. This illustrates what type of man he is, no doubt. But I wonder, why was he rejected by his Sifu and Sigung?
Another world famous Wing Chun Grandmaster once held a workshop in New York. During this seminar, Master X made a few mistakes – firstly, he asked to ‘touch hands’ with this famous Grandmaster; the Grandmaster sensed the bad energy from Master X and immediately give him a little incentive to behave himself, in the form of a wallop! After this, Master X then behaved all nice, and performed Chi Sau in a very slow and safe fashion!!! Secondly, while the Grandmaster was giving his workshop, Master X was showing his students certain ideas and commenting on the workshop – this alone was terrible etiquette. Following the workshop, the famous Grandmaster informed his students that Master X was a ‘troublemaker’ and that it would be wise to ‘keep an eye on him’. I wonder, why would anyone say this?
I have noticed that Master X has a very childish reaction to something he does not understand or have knowledge of. When he comes into contact with anything that he has no experience of, he uses language like ‘made up’ and ‘fictional’ – what a hypocrite!! This very same hypocrite is the one who makes things up – for example, as Mark mentioned, at one time he gave a seminar in Florida, I believe, where he was demonstrating some Wing Chun which he referred to as Yip Man (he was actually performing Jee Shim and pretending it was Yip Man) – however, Master X made an eejit out of himself because he failed to recognise that a Jee Shim Master was present – this Master made the comment that Master X was indeed performing Jee Shim!!!! Now, that truly is ‘made up’ and ‘fictional’ behaviour.
Master X has also attacked Master Meng on many occasions. When I visited Master Meng’s VTMuseum in 2004, I found that he had truly travelled many thousands of miles to objectively research Wing Chun. I found that Master Meng immediately shared his findings freely and openly, and this same man spoke very respectfully about all lineages of Wing Chun – coming from Yip Man Wing Chun myself, it was wonderful to meet a genuine researcher and Wing Chun Master such as Master Meng. When I see Master X spewing out garbage about this man, it is purely and simply wrong. What real research has Master X done? Is copying information from other systems really research, because that is what he has done in the past. Is constantly attacking his former Sigung and Sifu noble behaviour? I don’t think so.
This man has not shied away from insulting people over the last 20 years. I am very sure that in time, the martial arts community, as well as all Wing Chun families, will recognise this so-called Master for what he is – an eejit.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Mark Andrews]

He claims to be a Buddhist but I think he is an Acupunturist.

You know, I've been around the block a few times and have been doing Wing Chun for over a decade. What I have seen with my own eyes is a pattern of action from this so called "authority". Over and over again his own insecurities gets the best of him and he goes after someone.

I only have one question: When is enough enough?

Cheerio

The "Picker"

[Op108wc]

Because of his past conduct and inmature behavior as well as criticising people he has not been able to get along well with others.


I only have one question: When is enough enough?

[Op108wc]

Thumbs up to Master Benny Meng!



Originally posted by Scott

I had the pleasure to meet Master Benny Meng and his students at the VTAA Conference a few weeks back - they are true ambassadors for the art and will be a lasting memory of the conference. Master Meng's seminar was truely fascinating.


http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1474

[Cang Long]

As an impartial observer and a new member of this forum I thought it was about time to speak my mind after more hypocritical on-line postings from a so-called “authority” of Wing Chun on another new Wing Chun forum. Mark Andrews,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for your input. The truth of these matters should be put out to the general public just as you suggest and your input and insight are most welcome in that endeavor.

This "authority" was at it again with a recently deleted post that once again showed his lack of mo duk and inability to foster good will as opposed to misinformation and ill will. For all our sakes lets hope he will continue to moderate himself and delete them before posting them in the future.

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

Deleting words from a page does not in any way remove those words from the minds who have read them, but at least it is a step in the right direction for this character. I agree, no posts in the first place would be better. If he does not understand this, then he truly is an eejit.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Hello everyone

This self-proclaimed "authority", master X must be very happy if he pleases himself first. Just as he has the free will to think delusionally -- Is Master X really an expert???

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Is he an authority? Ya, at not understanding his T & S, in contradiction of self, and diminishing others beliefs without any use of reality. Umm, ya an authority in allusions (BS).
When a being refuses to look beyond ones self acclamations in life, they never see past the allusions in their one sided view, thus never seeing reality as a hole.
Somewhere around 70 percent of the martial arts population wants to train in allusions because they don't know any better and they can't see beyond the BS of marketing. Dam those door to door salesmen, they will take all your money and give you a piece of crap that doesn't work worth shizzit.;)
Ya, I bought one of those once!:o
laterz.

[mario bava]

Hello Op108wc and JamesHFYofAz

Master X is no authority, no expert. His Wing Chun ideas are cobbled together from various sources (experienced, borrowed or just plain stolen); his lack of ettiquette to differing families reveals his lack of true martial values; his inability to instruct without copious notes by his side illustrates his incompetence. This man is no expert.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Robert, interesting Post! A sage once reduced all the virtue to the golden mean -- "IF YOU MILK A COW TOO MUCH YOU DRAW BLOOD, NOT MILK." Flattery is more dangerous than hatred, because it covers the stains that the other causes to be wiped out.


Hendrik, show yourself less and you will be rewarded by being esteemed more.


El



Many times in the WCK community, we have rivals, different point of views on history, techniques, origins, etc. If we can put aside hatred, practice more patience, we can all do better. --- Robert Chu



The problem IMHHHHHHHHHHHO is that one needs to live with an open 4th chakra energy spectum to be able to do that.--- Hendrik

[Cang Long]

Robert gives a resounding review if you overlook the fact that he himself didn't purchase a book he "received a copy" and he was ready to right his review after having it for only one day. Also, the story, although fictional in account, is more real than most "oral legends" and "his-story of WCK" that are going around today. Also the Chinese culture background of life in a Tofu shop and herbal apothecary are amazingly accurate and factual. "More real" how could that be Rene not only admits to not having any insider information he doesn't even believe in it so if the only information he has to go on is public knowledge and oral legends" how can his story be "more real" this leaves the feeling that Robert's review is more of a marketing ploy to help a friend sell books than it is about resolving any questions concerning the "oral legends" of Wing Chun.

Still Robert makes even more interersting remarks because it seems he and Rene have reduced the history of Wing Chun to being comparable to life in a tofu shop. :rolleyes:
Maybe not so surprising from someone that once stated 1 hand cannot trap 2 hands but was thereafter shown the error in his statements by GM William Cheung. So we'll just have to wait and see how his review compares to those of the people that actually buy the book and write reviews on amazon.com once they start to come in.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Robert Chu

Also, the story, although fictional in account, is more real than most "oral legends" and "his-story of WCK" that are going around today. Also the Chinese culture background of life in a Tofu shop and herbal apothecary are amazingly accurate and factual.



Robert, laugh and the world laughs with you. There are icebreakers to warm up your listeners, and What is this "his-story of WCK" that are going around today? Are you talking about this story of Robert-Rene-Hendrik?


El



Originally posted by Mario

Well, I am aware that in the past, a certain Master of a certain Shaolin system wished to visit the VTM. On hearing this, Rene, Robert and Hendrik sent secretive, private e-mails to this Master, telling him not to go anywhere near Master Meng, nor the museum. Why would they do this? This is purely childish, unprofessional, biased and unacceptable behaviour.

[BennyMeng]

A surprise mail arrived yesterday, a complimentary gift from Rene. It was his new fictional book titled "Legends of Wingchun, Embers of the Shaoln". The book was autographed by Rene. Under the acknowledgements, he mentioned Sifu Gee and myself.

Personally, it is difficult to get the motivation or interest to read this text though I believe somewhere there is an audience.

Best of luck.

[mario bava]

Hello Op108wc

Yes, that was an interesting post.

"I am aware that in the past, a certain Master of a certain Shaolin system wished to visit the VTM. On hearing this, Rene, Robert and Hendrik sent secretive, private e-mails to this Master, telling him not to go anywhere near Master Meng, nor the museum."

"Some of you write hiding behind your cowardly keyboard" - Robert Chu

hmmm, who is Robert referring to?

"We will suffer for our karma" - Robert Chu


Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Hello there, a good storyteller is a person who has a good memory and hopes other people haven't. Does Moy Yat's name ring a bell to Robert Chu?



Originally posted by Mark Andrews

This is the same person who was rejected by is Sigung when approached for training and for the next 20 years has continued to bad mouth his Sigung. Why is this?




Originally posted by mario bava
"Some of you write hiding behind your cowardly keyboard" - Robert Chu

hmmm, who is Robert referring to?

"We will suffer for our karma" - Robert Chu

[Allen Kong]

Originally posted by BennyMeng
A surprise mail arrived yesterday, a complimentary gift from Rene. It was his new fictional book titled "Legends of Wingchun, Embers of the Shaoln". The book was autographed by Rene. Under the acknowledgements, he mentioned Sifu Gee and myself.

Personally, it is difficult to get the motivation or interest to read this text though I believe somewhere there is an audience.

Best of luck.


I have not read the book myself, but as the representative of Sifu Garrett Gee and the Hung Fa Yi Headquarters, I want to wish Mr. Rene Ritchie much success with his book. Best of luck.


Allen Kong

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Robert Chu

Also, the story, although fictional in account, is more real than most "oral legends" and "his-story of WCK" that are going around today.


If you do not understand a single lie destroys a whole reputation for intergtity, then you truly is an eejit.




Originally posted by Hendrik aka Someone Said

What is it that makes Wing Chun? Wing Chun?----


Emei 12 zhuang + White Crane of Fujian.


Is Hendrik young enough to know everything? Circumstances are not always favorable, hence they say, "Every dog has his day."

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by BennyMeng

In realms of connection between Wing Chun and White Crane, there has been a lot of research by both the Chinese governments in China and Taiwan. The conclusions to date have been that the two systems are separate.




An interesting point to mention here is:

Fukien Weng Chun (Weng Chun County) White Crane is the White Crane system attributed to Fong Weng Chun (aka Fong Chut-Leung), and Fatshan Wing Chun is the Shaolin system attributed to Yim Wing Chun.

[Op108wc]

Taken from: "Zhengzhong Nanpai Shaolin: Paihemen Shihequan" ("The Orthodox/Original Southern Shaolin Style: White Crane Gates - Feeding Crane Fist"). All information here comes from "Shaolin Bronze Man Book".

THE ORIGINS OF WHITE CRANE

At the beginning of Chin dynasty in Jiolien Mountains (Fukien province of China), the temple of Shaolin became a place of conflict between the oppressed nation (supported by Shaolin Buddhist Monastery in Southern China) and the government of foreign origins, the Mongols. The government therefore ordered to burn the temple. Monks who escaped death had to run away.


After the destruction of Shaolin one monk named Fong, Huei-shi escaped, and hided in Fuzhou branch of Shaolin. He possessed the knowledge of Shaolin Shipa Lohan Quan (18 Monk Fists) style. Fong, Huei-shi had a daughter named Chi Nian, who lived in Bizuei Lien-An in Shaolin Temple. Since childhood she learned Wushu from her father. Chi Nian was very fast learner, improving so quickly, that she understood the sentence of Shaolin Wushu in only four years.


It is said that Fong, Hue-Shi was murdered by neighboring village's members, who were jealous for his Quanfa skills. From that moment on, Fong, Chi-Nian promised herself to revenge her father.


On one day, while on a way back from the river where she was washing clothes, she saw a white crane sitting on the roof. Worried that bird may dirty her washing, she tried to scare it away with a stick. White attempting to hit the crane's head, the bird suddenly moved, sliding his body away and blocking the attack with his wing.


The Crane swiftly defended itself from Chi-Nian attacks. The crane used to come back everyday to fight with her.


From the crane's attack and defence Chi-Nian derived her methods of defence and combined the way of the White Crane (female small step techniques) and Shaolin 18 Lohan Hands to create a complete system, Pai He Men.

The legend says that this crane was indeed a deity of Paihepai (White Crane Style) who descending to earth took form of a crane body to teach Chi-Nian its method.



Baihemen Description

To describe Baihe we can use a living crane in the nature to picture it: that means if crane wants to eat (Shihe), he must look for food, and in order to do so he needs to fly (Feihe), whoop (Minghe) and sleep (Suhe). White Crane (Baihe) after eating (Shi) will fly (Fei), and doing so he will also whoop (Min), finally returning to rest in sleep (Su). Therefore Baihemen has the methods of flying, eating, whooping and sleeping, and every kind of method.


http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken/

[mario bava]

Hello There

I see there is a certain Wing Chun teacher, namely Master X, who teaches the 3 stages of martial artists - my goodness, it must be very embarrassing for a grown man such as he, to be completely unable to think for himself.
What a shame that a large portion of this man's livelyhood has been 'borrowed' from other sources (though misinterpreted)- when he looks in the mirror, does he see a conman? If not, he needs to clean the glass.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Master X...!!! Intellect is not enough, character is also needed.

[Op108wc]

Nutz’N Honey

“edited 6 times in total” I (Hendrik) just response to God/Buddha's called.

The doctor rolled his eyes toward the ceiling. Then he said, “Maybe you’d prefer to look at it a different way. According to this chart, you made six stupid mistakes, not God or Buddha!”


LOL!!!




Originally posted by Hendrik Santo

decade ago I might think different but currently as an instrument, I just response to God/Buddha's called. they give me insparation and want me to post. I post. live is simpler that way.

Last edited by Hendrik on Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:16 pm; edited 6 times in total

[Hungman]

Dr. Elton said, "Well Hendrik, I don't mind an occassional mistake. But when it gets to be a habit, I feel I have to call it to your attention."




Hey Elton, Bill from Sifu Chris Chan's school told me to say hello to you.

[Cang Long]

Last edited by Hendrik on Thu Jan 12, 2006 7:16 pm; edited 6 times in total Somewhere the signal must be getting crossed and the message has lost its momentum.

[Hungman]

It took Hendrik "six times" to rewrite the speech just that way. Why did he want to remove it? :confused:

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Jim

Why someone (Hendrik Santo) who claims to have left the ego behind would write a multi-page post on a public forum that is incomprehensible by all but the author completely escapes me.

It's tough enough to get ideas across when all parties read and write English well and use clear and simple terms. This stuff is ASCII encoded masturbation of the highest order IMO.


Nutz!!!!

Here is Heeeeeeeeeeendrik……..!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39985

[Cang Long]

If hendrik spoke in common terms he might be understood .....or is that the point ;)

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Hendrik

I know I must be Nuts. hahah but we have gone a long way baby.



American freedom consists largely in talking nonsense. The offense is doubled on account of the judgment condemned and the person who championed it.



Hendrik,
I will make a recommendation for you. Take the red pill.

You say that communication is never easy, and that some will reject it. In this case it is very true. Mainly because of the obvious intent of the communicator (that's you,btw) to try and BS people with this obtuse model of yours. Communication is much easier when your intent is to really share ideas and concepts, not so when you're trying to showcase your ego – from KFO.


“Communication is never easy – from Hendrik” Many people are aware that in the past, a certain Master of a certain Shaolin system wished to visit the VTM. On hearing this, Hendrik sent secretive, private e-mails to this Shaolin Master, telling him not to go anywhere near Master Benny Meng, nor the museum. Why would he do this? This is purely childish, unprofessional, biased and unacceptable behaviour.




By that logic, you (Hendrik) are demonstrably one of the most egotistical *******s that ever walked the Earth – from KFO.


Hendrik is the best half-educated person in the world IMO.




You (Hendrik) really are quite captivated by your own mental processes. Your mistake is assuming anyone else is, with the possible exception of students of abnormal psychology.

Get over yourself, please. – from KFO



Hendrik also spreads so many rumours and negative comments about Shaolin Wing Chun, Hendrik finds it hard to believe that his XLM is as silly as his own comment “I know I must be Nuts. Hahah”

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Hendrik
Thus, I have heard, some said that, Love and peace hold higher and mightier then figthing and loaded bank account and Fame. and that is just what I have heard


Is that Hendrik's personality or IQ Testing?



Originally posted by Hendrik
Is one's WCK for figthing and fame or for Loving and Peace. That is free individual's choice.
IMHHO


Did you find that out from your Aunt?



Originally posted by Hendrik
as my Aunt said in the chinese moon festival, those apolo stuffs is just a believe, they never land on moon, but movies making in hollywood.


Sounds like your "talents" for incomprehensibility and improbable beliefs are genetically based. -- from KFO


In this case, in Hendrik’s opinion, his Aunt could speak for him!

[baihequan]

Originally posted by BennyMeng

In realms of connection between Wing Chun and White Crane, there has been a lot of research by both the Chinese governments in China and Taiwan. The conclusions to date have been that the two systems are separate.

I am simply a humble seeker of little knowledge and skill but I must agree with GM Meng's post as shown above.

Whilst the two arts may share some similarities in the basic applications the theory is I believe different in application. Wing Chun is a remarkable system of extreme practicality!

That is not to say that White Crane is not. Just that it is in essence, different.

[Op108wc]

White Crane Pai -- Feeding Crane Kung Fu by Sifu Lui Chang-I

http://home.kimo.com.tw/feeding_crane/feedingcrane-5.htm



Wing Chun Kung Fu

http://www.youtube.com/w/Wing-Chun-Sticky-Hands?v=z_ixnZP8H4M&search=wing%20chun

http://www.youtube.com/w/Wing-Chun-Footwork?v=Mf_DL-pnJIA&search=wing%20chun

[Cang Long]

Whilst the two arts may share some similarities in the basic applications the theory is I believe different in application. Wing Chun is a remarkable system of extreme practicality! baihequan,
I was wondering what your exposure to Wing Chun has been up to this point in your studies?

[baihequan]

Cang Long,

Sorry for the delay in replying ..... life!

I have trained a little in the basics of Wing Chun and have a student who has had some extensive training in Wing Chun. Apart from that my exposure has been minimal.

[Cang Long]

baihequan,
Sorry for the delay in replying ..... life!Understood, ;)

Do you consider White Crane a Shaolin art being that,Fang Chi-Niang's father, Fang Fei-Sze, studied kung fu at the Shaolin temple at Nine Lotus Mountain in the southeastern Chinese province of Fukien or Fujian. If so would that not account for some similarities between Wing Chun, if not then what would you attibute the similarities.

[baihequan]

Cang Long,

As stated I have little experience with Wing Chunh in all its forms but aoart from a few similarities in the basic techniques, I see little common ground in the area of the application of the various Jings of White Crane.

[Op108wc]

White Crane

http://www.whitecranejournal.com/



Wing Chun (TWC) Vs Monk

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=963&perpage=15&pagenumber=1



Shaolin Wing Chun

http://www.shaolinwingchun.com/en/techniques/tech_canvas_intro.html

[baihequan]

Op108wc

I'm sorry but I don't get what point your trying to make???

[Op108wc]

Hello there, please relax and don't be sorry.

Everything depends on our way of looking. There is no such thing as point – in or out of forum. If anything….which is the way of liberation.

[sauchi]

I might be abit late on this but after reading this paragraph:

After the destruction of Shaolin one monk named Fong, Huei-shi escaped, and hided in Fuzhou branch of Shaolin. He possessed the knowledge of Shaolin Shipa Lohan Quan (18 Monk Fists) style. Fong, Huei-shi had a daughter named Chi Nian, who lived in Bizuei Lien-An in Shaolin Temple. Since childhood she learned Wushu from her father. Chi Nian was very fast learner, improving so quickly, that she understood the sentence of Shaolin Wushu in only four years.

My only comment is that "Wushu" is a modern invention.

[baihequan]

Wushu is indeed a modern invention, White Crane is not.

[Cang Long]

Wushu is indeed a modern invention, White Crane is not. Yes wushu is a modern invention White Crane is not and neither is Shaolin Kung Fu.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by WingChun187
superior wing chun is out there and nobody else will ever get it ..hahaha unless you join our Organization .for x amount of $$$ ,what a joke......you know who you are you scumbags

What a joke…. hahaha….???
In order for GM Yip Man to learn Wing Chun under Chan Wah Shun, Yip Man had to paid over 300 silver coins (enough to buy two houses). You finally recognize the answer staring you in the face. So, if Yip Man and others who disagree with what you’re saying, then it’s your problem – not theirs.



Originally posted by Rene Ritee
And if you don't, just join WingChun187's new super special secret Anti-Scam org and for $1K a month, he'll keep you up to date!

*for $1K a month* … comparing to $1K a day. Benny Meng paid more than that to Robert Chu! You are not finding the fit you expected. Maybe it’s because you’re trying to force a square peg into a round hole. Looking elsewhere. Is it a good time to sell T-shirts and coffee cups?



Originally posted by Robert Chu
Hey, I'll sign up!
I'd like to create my own cult! How would I go about doing that?

Evidently, a certain someone needs reminding. You know you’re being quoted out of context. But attempts to explain yourself make you look culpable. Is it a good time to plead the fifth?

[Cang Long]

originally posted by rene ritchie
And if you don't, just join WingChun187's new super special secret Anti-Scam org and for $1K a month, he'll keep you up to date! originally posted by Robert Chu
I'd like to create my own cult! How would I go about doing that? When your words are worthless then you can say whatever you want whenever you want however you want but if your words do not match your actions how will you ever gain credibility.

[Op108wc]

Rene, Look What You Have Done. The kid (WingChun187) would remember this as a traumatic experience for the rest of his life.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/74013/look_what_you_have_done/

[mario bava]

Hello Everyone

Cults seem to be everywhere these days! - could grouping together in secret, and sending sneaky e-mails with bad intentions be seen as the activity of a cult? ;)
Yes, Cults are everywhere. Apparently there are Cult leaders who cannot think for themselves, never mind their followers - they steal information from others and parade it as their own, even though they don't understand it in the first place! ;)
Yes, Op108wc, I am very glad that GM Yip Man recognised the privilege of having Chan Wah Shun teach him. I wonder were there any mindless would-be crusaders around those days?

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Cults seem to be everywhere these days! - could grouping together in secret, and sending sneaky e-mails with bad intentions be seen as the activity of a cult?

Originally posted by Hendrik
The issue is that
1, is there really a different or taking things too far?
2, is so how to define too far?

Hendrik, You may be overlooking what you have done.

Gary, You're right, this cult thing happens only when people take these things too far.



Yes, Cults are everywhere. Apparently there are Cult leaders who cannot think for themselves, never mind their followers - they steal information from others and parade it as their own, even though they don't understand it in the first place!

Master X is still evolving!



Yes, Op108wc, I am very glad that GM Yip Man recognised the privilege of having Chan Wah Shun teach him. I wonder were there any mindless would-be crusaders around those days?

Was there a Rene Ritchee living in 1900?
The devil could change. He was once an angel and may be evolving still.

[Op108wc]

CangLong,
You're 100% correct. IMO, Rene Ritchee and Robort Chu's words are a reflection and source of prejudice. It both enforces and suggests forms of bias.


El



Originally posted by Cang Long
When your words are worthless then you can say whatever you want whenever you want however you want but if your words do not match your actions how will you ever gain credibility.

[mario bava]

Hello Everyone

Cults are everywhere, but thankfully the internet has many sites which offer advice on the danger of martial arts cults - useful information.

Oh yes, I have a question to ask - if someone composes an insulting post, and then deletes it himself or has someone else do it, is this considered the action of a cultist, or that of a coward?

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[sauchi]

superior wing chun is out there and nobody else will ever get it ..hahaha Twisted Evil unless you join our Organization .for x amount of $$$ ,what a joke......you know who you are you scumbags - from xxx


And if you don't, just join WingChun187's new super special secret Anti-Scam org and for $1K a month, he'll keep you up to date! - from xxx follower


Its me - Hi All

Its seems to me that someone out there is a very jealous person.

They talk about money and making money - what is wrong with that?

I mean the very same people are complaining about money and how much other people charge when the complainers themselves are selling t-shirts, cups and books with the Name of the Kung Fu label trying to make a quick buck themselves.

Why is it OK for them to make money with the name of Kung fu by selling t-shirts and cups but then it is not OK for the Martial Artists around the world to teach as a Profession to serve the community? Why would this be a problem for them how much other people make? And then in turn they go around INSULTING professional Marial Artists for sharing thier professional knowledge.


No one talks bad about a Pro Boxer trying to teach another person how to box or a Pro Fighter try to teach other people self defense.
Professionals Martial artists all over the world get paid for their knowledge and expertise.
The amount of money that people pay them is based on how qualified the professional is and and also the demand for the knowledge and expertise the Pro has.

No one can work for free no matter how noble the cause unless he or she is independantly wealthy of course.
Even an Accupunturist WHO believes in helping and healing others STILL CHARGES money for his services.

As for Cult following...again it sounds like the complainer should really look in the mirror.
It sound like SOMEBODY small is really trying hard to be SOMEBODY he is not.

He, or they have a bad case of penis envy - And those people know who they are out there.

s-

[mario bava]

Hello Sihing Kwan

Good points there.

Slighty off topic, but I know of many acupuncturists who ply their trade. Most of these people are good honest folk with genuine intention behind their actions and are fully entitled to earn their living - however, statistics have shown that this noble trade, like most trades nowadays, has been infiltrated by sneaky moneymakers, even charging large sums of money to work with one point! Thankfully however, genuine practitioners of both Accupuncture and Martial Arts are still to be found.
Back on topic - yes, it is very inconsistent when professional martial artists are attacked - but as you say, boxers, aerobics instructors, acupuncturists, dentists etc seem to have escaped the damning statements of certain individuals. This inconsistency of course may not be accidental - the only thing consistent about Larry, Curly and Moe was that people always laughed at them.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[sauchi]

Hi ya Gary

the only thing consistent about Larry, Curly and Moe was that people always laughed at them.

This is sad but true.:D

Sauchi

[Op108wc]

Rene,

Does someone admire your success?
You've done an excellent job of letting people believe what they want -- "legends of WingChun". New forms are born from old ideas -- *money*...it's all about money!


BOW TO YOUR SIFU! 2.25" Button (10 pack)

$17.99

http://www.cafepress.com/wingchunkuencom.38264845

Kuen Kuit Mug

$14.99

http://www.cafepress.com/wingchunkuencom.38183707





Its seems to me that someone out there is a very jealous person.

They talk about money and making money - what is wrong with that?

I mean the very same people are complaining about money and how much other people charge when the complainers themselves are selling t-shirts, cups and books with the Name of the Kung Fu label trying to make a quick buck themselves.

Why is it OK for them to make money with the name of Kung fu by selling t-shirts and cups but then it is not OK for the Martial Artists around the world to teach as a Profession to serve the community? Why would this be a problem for them how much other people make? And then in turn they go around INSULTING professional Marial Artists for sharing thier professional knowledge.



No one talks bad about a Pro Boxer trying to teach another person how to box or a Pro Fighter try to teach other people self defense.
Professionals Martial artists all over the world get paid for their knowledge and expertise.
The amount of money that people pay them is based on how qualified the professional is and and also the demand for the knowledge and expertise the Pro has.

No one can work for free no matter how noble the cause unless he or she is independantly wealthy of course.
Even an Accupunturist WHO believes in helping and healing others STILL CHARGES money for his services.

As for Cult following...again it sounds like the complainer should really look in the mirror.
It sound like SOMEBODY small is really trying hard to be SOMEBODY he is not.

He, or they have a bad case of penis envy - And those people know who they are out there.

[mario bava]

Hello Everyone

My sister-in-law has a friend in Columbia who earns a living teaching a martial art to the public. He is successful, and many people go to learn from him as he has genuine martial art skills to offer. Now, recently I have seen certain folk attacking those martial artists who wish to teach professionally. These folk throw insults at people they wish to attack, but their insults unwittingly may apply to those closer to home.

I have heard in the past of Robert Chu, and his complaints about a certain Yip Man Wing Chun Master who charged too much money to learn Wing Chun and did not wish to pay. I have also heard how Master Meng, representing the VTM, met with Robert Chu to research the Gu Lao Wing Chun, which Robert Chu could present. On this occasion, Robert Chu demanded $1,000 from the VTM - for this money, Robert Chu read notes from paper and the session lasted only 1 day at most.

Now, a few ideas have been raised here - firstly, that people could interpret Robert Chu as a case of the Kettle calling the Pot 'Black Arse'. 2ndly, there are a group of folk running around calling people scumbags and other things - now, if a professional martial artist makes a living by providing a genuine service to their community, and is deemed a scumbag for it, what does that make those who sell shirts, books and cups for their living while riding on the back of the Gung Fu Culture? How should we refer to those who extort massive sums of money for only a few hours tuition?

These are some questions that maybe the crusaders should answer, but likely will not, as the answers may lead them very close to home.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Hello Gary


My sister-in-law has a friend in Columbia who earns a living teaching a martial art to the public. He is successful, and many people go to learn from him as he has genuine martial art skills to offer. Now, recently I have seen certain folk attacking those martial artists who wish to teach professionally. These folk throw insults at people they wish to attack, but their insults unwittingly may apply to those closer to home.

People are usually more firmly convinced that their opinions are precious than they are true. When these scumbags say “everybody says so,” they mean they say so.



I have heard in the past of Robert Chu, and his complaints about a certain Yip Man Wing Chun Master who charged too much money to learn Wing Chun and did not wish to pay. I have also heard how Master Meng, representing the VTM, met with Robert Chu to research the Gu Lao Wing Chun, which Robert Chu could present. On this occasion, Robert Chu demanded $1,000 from the VTM - for this money, Robert Chu read notes from paper and the session lasted only 1 day at most

$1000 divided by 40 points Gu Lao Wing Chun = $25 per point

Man tends to treat all these points as a ATM.



Now, a few ideas have been raised here - firstly, that people could interpret Robert Chu as a case of the Kettle calling the Pot 'Black Arse'.


More Robert Chu doublespeak. IMHO, he’s an opportunist.



2ndly, there are a group of folk running around calling people scumbags and other things - now, if a professional martial artist makes a living by providing a genuine service to their community, and is deemed a scumbag for it, what does that make those who sell shirts, books and cups for their living while riding on the back of the Gung Fu Culture? How should we refer to those who extort massive sums of money for only a few hours tuition?

Is it best that Rene and his friends should all think alike?

It is difference of opinion which makes horse sh*t. LOL!



These are some questions that maybe the crusaders should answer, but likely will not, as the answers may lead them very close to home.

Well, it requires Hendrik’s millions posts to destroy the Shaolin temple. Public opinion in this country is everything.

[Op108wc]

Where did the SLT of Yik Kam come from? Mui Shun? Emie? Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane? Or the http://www.wingchun.ukrbiz.net/eng.htm?

Hendrik and his friends can escape from the level of society, but not from level of intelligence to which we were born. The Wing Chun kungfu and the so-called SLT of Yik Kam are not the same art.



Originally posted by Hendrik
it is not about choregraphy. it is atleast layers deep of different enginee and different platform and different jing.
the slt comes with a theme core with the emei dna and that is different then the sambaifut or wengchunkuen form's platform and jing type. IMHO.


Originally posted by Cang Long
There are obvious visible differences between White Crane and Wing Chun most people agree as you suggest show me different Southern Arts and you will find similarities, that obviously doesn't work in this idea of White Crane as the mother art of Wing Chun so these common ideas need to be dismissed in order to promote the idea further but since Weng Chun and Wing Chun were commonly considered the same thing in China during the time period in which we are refering to then some of the more deeper rooted connections between the two must be disgarded to promote the idea as well. So the message is they can look at the surface and distinguish a difference but you can't and if you do then you need to look beyond the surface and it becomes useless and cyclical.

The simple fact of the matter is that this White Crane theory is hinged on Miu Shun connecting to Yik Kam but in order to do that you must dismiss Yik Kam's seniors Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai whom were already practicing SNT/CK/BJ. The theory is relevant to the Cho family because when you seperate the 2 arts to look objectively visibly noticing and acknowledging there are 2 different sources means you can agree with the theory that the source of Yik Kam's kung fu is emie and 12 Zhong this is entirely possible because it means GM Yip Man whom never mentioned anything of Miu Shun or White Crane and though his story is different than Yik Kam it too can be correct. The sticking point is the theories inablity to connect Yik Kam to Miu Shun. You yourself said it plainly enough Wong Wah Bo was practicing during the time of Yik Kam and that is common knowledge Yik Kam could not pass on something different than WWB that can be proven to be any older and the source is different. This is not so much promoting another theory as it is promoting common sense. Why, Glad you asked, because
Yik Kam = one long SLT
Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai = SNT/CK/BJ
Dai Dong Fung and Hung Gun Biu = SNT/CK/BJ

They themselves (theory promoters) acknowledge a different source.
Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were Yik Kam's seniors.
SNT/CK/BJ Wing Chun and Saam Bai Faat Weng Chun both trace back to Shaolin.
Silence of the many many wing chun lineages that do not mention White crane
White Crane practitioners acknowledge a difference.
The Ving Tsun Museum research finds White Crane and Wing Chun are different.
The Chinese Government research acknowledges White Crane and Wing Chun are different.

[mario bava]

Hello There

Wong Wah Bo - 3 forms
Dai Dung Fong - 3 forms
Hung Gun Biu - 3 forms
Yik Kam - 1 long form

Hendrik et al insist that Wing Chun has one form and is coming from White Crane, while a world of evidence through differing lineages says otherwise. I would like to see what the VTM thinks of this position, if they could share their thoughts based on their objective research. The one thing I like about the VTM is that if they have the time they will respond to this post publically on the forum, as opposed to sending me a sneaky e-mail speaking ill of others.

Based on lineage histories, based on physical forms, based on Chinese Official Records and based on VTM research, there is no doubt that WCK and WCWC are two separate systems.

Various people have asked many times why Hendrik will not just come out with a straight answer to any questions. If he wishes to discuss, then discuss. If he does not wish to discuss, then do not discuss. If he cannot provide answers to the many questions that are put to him, then that says more than any answer he may provide. Can Hendrik answer this:
Why does WWB Wing Chun have 3 forms?
Why does Hung Gun Biu have 3 forms?
Why does Dai Dung Fong have 3 forms?
Or, more applicable given the many lineages of Wing Chun, why does Yik Kam only have 1 form as opposed to the 3 all other lineages have?
I have a feeling the only choice for Hendrik is to say nothing, as usual.

In relation to whether or not Wing Chun comes from White crane, Jim has asked "who knows?" Well, the following list of folk are some who know it was born in the Shaolin Temple, with no mention of coming from White Crane:

Wong Wah Bo
Hung Gun Biu
Pan Nam
Dai Dung Fong

Cheerio, Gary

www,hungfayiireland.com (www.hungfayiireland.com)

[baihequan]

White Crane is a world away in difference to Wing Chun. The techniques and essential principles are very different.

[mario bava]

Hello Baihequan

How are you doing? Thanks for the reply. I was wondering if you could expand on your post a little and offer some detail on the essential principle differences, if you had the time. Thanks again for taking the time to post here. Any information you can provide will do us all good on the forum.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[baihequan]

Hi Gary,

Please read the following:

White Crane Principles: an Overview

In Fuzhou crane, we are taught that techniques are just but a manifestation of our fighting principles. Forms are the ways and not the ends. Every drill / forms and 2 man sets are designed to teach the body to behave in a certain manner during a fight. Of course the whole idea is to mimic a crane.
We have certain principles in our system.
Let me share 2 here with you.
1) Fourth door fighting :- I am sure you are familiar with the door/gate concept in kung fu fighting. Wing Chun players are very skilled in hitting 2 doors simultaneously. A vertical punch to the upper door (face) and a low stamp kick to the lower door (shin) is a good example. In Fuzhou crane, we try to take every fight to the fourth door. Side stepping footwork is a BIG BIG part of our basic training. You could say we prefer open hand strikes because they are particularly effective moving out to the fourth door. We do not just simply move to the fourth door but hit on the way getting there. Using a low finger slap to the groin moving out is a good example. This technique is called "White Crane Playing Water" or "PaiHe Shi Shui" in Mandarin.
This idea is kind of like in boxing : you see a high strike to your face, you don't just want to duck or move sidewards. you move and hit at the same time. Alot of our forms make no sense if you don't master the fourth door concept. Forms are meaningless unless you understand the embedded principles. No secrets here but simply getting the key to the form is the heart of the matter. The tricky part, as far as I am concerned, is understanding the principles. In Fuzhou crane these are transmitted in poems-like writing. If you don't have a teacher explaining - it is going to be tough.
2) Breaking bridge :- Any thing your opponent put between you and him is the bridge. He jabs, you could block and counterstrike or you break the hand jabbing. You could do this with your elbow straight up on the oncoming jab for example. Use your other arm to lead his jabbing arm to your lifting elbow. The same applies to Chin-Na or throwing techniques. Opponent seizes your arm, you hit the seizing arm and break his weak spots like fingerjoints, wrists etc ... There are 8 different ways to break arm and 5 way to break a leg.
1 principle, 1 form is the rule.
White Crane and especially Fuzhou lineage has got a very unique rhythm even compared to the other Southern Fukien styles Kung Fu
In White Crane, we study the crane’s singing, flying, playing, shaking, and fighting etc etc. Not only external movements’ mimicry but also internal qualities. When a crane flies, it is not strictly only the flapping movements that we are trying to imitate but more significantly the power generation. The same applies to Shaking Crane. The energy that the bird summons to shake itself dry is the study topic and aspiration for these practitioners. There are many exercises designed to loosen the body to acquire this Jin. Most White Crane players would spend hours just doing these exercise. Without the Jin, the techniques are zilch.
Just like in Tai Chi. the forms and techniques are useless if you don’t get the Jin to work it. Master the style. Understand the motivation behind each style. Without intimate understanding, you are shooting blanks.
Movements are natural and spontaneous, fluids and objectives. There is not ballistic force, but the whip-like manifestation of the Jin.
This is another very accurate statement. Cranes are graceful creatures. The founder is a female who studied Northern Lohan Boxing from her father. The patron Saint of White Crane kung fu is a Daoist priest. Add all these together and logically you should get something that spells “internal”. The “whip-like” manifestation of Jin is DEFINITIVE White Crane! Techniques are launched from all positions without the typical chambering to the sides of the body. The wrists stay relaxed so that a punch could be turn into a finger jab / slapping at any time required. The waist turns the centerline of the body to avoid an upper gate attack and the leading hand slaps into attackers face or groin in a very natural whip like manner. The favoured kick is the straight up kick because it could be launched easily without much preparatory chambering. The other would be the stomping kick. Technique after technique in White Crane is about being natural and fluid! Jin training is from long to short.

The point’s bai hui (coronarial suture) e hai di (perineous) will be aligned in the extremities of a vertical to that the spinal nerve roots will be free to the maximum response of the reflexes.

This is very much like in Tai Chi. the Bai hui and Dan Tien stay aligned. The legs are properly rooted. Back leg is usually slightly bent to absorb and return incoming Jin. Power is initiated by the rear leg. The front leg directs this power. Keeping the alignment means optimum transmission of Jin from the rear leg. Any other posture would result in unnecessary dissipation along the way. Most White Crane poems emphasized this very clearly. In Ming He or Whooping Crane, you use different sounds to propel this Jin for different results. To push an opponent back or break a rib bone requires different Jin. Using the right Jin for the right job is not guesswork.
The Sanchin-dachi is too tight and too small in my opinion. The upper body becomes constrained in expressing Jin.
Body Change/Body Shifting are a fundamental work in the White Crane Fist. Body changes will be used in all techniques and will be as natural as breathing or eating.
Very true. Big body movements are totally essential in White Crane. One of our basic principles is moving to opponents “fourth door”. This is kind of like side-stepping except that it is done to both the inside and outside of opponent. There is a form that we do that makes no sense if you don’t apply this body movement. Again this could be attributed to the fact that the creator is a woman who prefers to steer clear of aggressive incoming force first before counterstriking.
This is probably the other reason why Sanchin-Dachi doesn’t work for me. I let my stances stay more “relaxed” to facilitate my body shift.
The hand posture, particularly the use of the fingers, has great emphasis in the White Crane Fist. It is based on this element that the Dim Mak (Kyusho-jutsu) is possible.
Fingers/palms/wrists/elbows/forearms and the shoulders are just as important as the one-knuckle punch that we do. Beside just Dim Mak, the elbows are used comprehensively in “bridge breaking”. The one-knuckle is the typical punch precisely because it is more efficient in pressure points attacks.
Each technique of the Kata/Taolu will be understood after the dynamics of the martial Jin, that is composed by four principles: to bring (Tun, "swallow") and to project (Tu, "spit out"); to raise (Pu, "floating") and to get down (Tim, "sinking").
In fact all these four principles are usually contained in one line of a poem. Every White Crane style has a more comprehensive set of principles. Finally, is necessary to understand that all secrets and principles of White Crane are in its Forms/Kata/Taolu, but the outmost of all secret is in mastering its internal energy.

Some basic principles:
Retain what is coming in, send off what is retreating. Rush in upon loss of hand contact.
Even when you do not advance, I do not relent.
Once the opponent moves, he loses his center of gravity.
Make the first move to gain control. Attack according to timing.
Precise use of timing is a skill gained through practice.
A confident attitude and a strong posture gives an advantage over the opponent.
Being alert and adapting to the situation allows maximum result with the minimum effort.
The body follows the movements of the hands. The waist and stance move as one.
Body positioning supports the hands to make proper use of the Centerline.
The mind and the eyes work simultaneously to guard against the point of attack.
Face the opponent directly as you move in. Execute three moves together.
Strike at any posture that is presented. If no posture is presented, strike when you see motion.
Beware of sneak attacks, leakage attacks and “invisible” center-breaking attacks.
Soft and relaxed energy puts the opponent in jeopardy.
Being firm and confident in trapping and striking reduces risk and allows “one hundred successes for one hundred attempts”.
Have confidence and remain cool to dominate the situation.
Occupy the inner gate to strike deep into opponent’s defence.
To win in an instant is a superior achievement.
Chase the opponent’s position with cat-like quickness. Attack his posture with bird-like rapidity.
The Ying/Yang principle must be thoroughly understood.
White Crane combat theory is limitless in its applications.
Humbly request guidance from your teacher. Understand the theory of what you are practicing.
Upon achieving the highest level of proficiency, the application of techniques will vary according to the opponent.
It is so obvious isn’t it? You would expect a White Crane player to move according to the above principles.
This is by no mean a detailed study of White Crane. I am using this as a starting point.

Fujian (Mandarin) / Fukien (the commonly used Western pronunciation) or Hockien (In Fujian Dialect) is a province in Southern China.Fuzhou (Mandarin) / Foo Chow (the commonly used Western pronunciation) or Hood Chew (In Fuzhou Dialect) is a coastal town in Fujian. Fuzhou is also the capital city of Fujian.
The 2 different spoken dialects are really miles apart. The unlikenesses also extend into other aspects of life. Fuzhou is a minority group in China.
Fukien White Crane is also more frequently known as Yong Chun White Crane or Eng Choon White Crane as spoken in the Fujian dialect. Eng Choon is a place in Fukien, where many believed Fang Chi Niang and her husband concentrated her initial spread of her crane kung Fu skills.
Fuzhou White Crane is a collective term encompassing 4 major streams of White Crane. These are namely:-
1.Whooping Crane or MingHe in Mandarin
2. Feeding Crane or ShiHe
3. Flying Crane or FeiHe
4. Hibernating or ShuHe

There are 2 others Fuzhou Crane not included above are:-
• ZhongHe or Shaking Crane – This stream recognizes a different founder altogether.
• ChongHe or Ancestral Crane – You have both a Fukien and Fuzhou Ancestral Crane.
Fuzhou Ancestral Crane is believed to predate the other 4 major Fuzhou Cranes.

Generally, if you talk to anyone about the founder of White Crane Kung Fu, you are likely to hear:-

• Fang Hui Shi – A Shaolin Lohan Boxer during the Ching Dynasty. The Manchurians were ruling China at that time and many Chinese boxers were grouping and fighting this dominion. The nucleus groups were Shaolin related. There are, according to my research, inconsistent versions of Fang’s Lohan. If you read anything out of Taiwan, Fang is likely to be reported as a Northern Shaolin Lohan Boxer. In other parts of Asia, Singapore & Malaysia for instance, he is recorded as a Southern Shaolin Lohan Boxer involved in activist activities. Kuching’s (Sarawak) Huang Yi Ing, a renowned MingHe master, held that Fang is Southern Shaolin Boxer. The distinction is essential because of the great dissimilarities in the 2 systems and the influence it wielded over early White Crane Kung Fu development.
• Fang Chi Niang – Daughter of Fang Hui Shi. Was taught her father’s kung fu since a tender age and was roving with him. The widespread story is that she got motivated to invent White Crane Kung Fu after watching cranes in action. Whatever the case, her kung fu background is Shaolin and it stands to reason that her conception must include Shaolin elements.
There are many colorful stories revolving her life and the person she picked to marry – her best student Zheng Shi. This is uncorroborated but they are many folks who thought that Zheng was a Shaolin Tiger boxer previous to learning from Chi Niang.
Like her father, Chi Niang and her husband, were also extremely involved in clandestine activists’ work. And part of what she did was training everyday folks to fight and this she started in Yong Chun Fukien.
If you look at Fukien White Crane now, it is hard to miss the Shaolin and to a certain extent
The punching is largely the Shaolin twisting punch and in many of their forms, high kicks (chest and head levels) are used.
By and large, the manner of expressing their forms is typically Shaolin.
Fukien White Crane is regarded by many Chinese researchers to be the main seminal force in Southern Kung Fu. Many styles of Southern Kung Fu are thought to be related. Styles such as Wing Chun (Fatshan), Southern Praying Mantis, Southern Phoenix Kung Fu, Ngo Chor and Tai Chor. And if you observe these styles in action, this suggestion is not too implausible. Take for instance, Wing Chun one inch’s power punch – this is the exact same attribute pursued by White Crane.
Chi Niang and her husband joined an aggressive underground group called Tien Ti Hui or Heaven and Earth Society to fight the Manchu. Those of you who are familiar with Hong Kong produced TV Kung fu dramas must know of this society. Many of these are based on Tien Ti Hui and the many kung fu heroes who were member of this group.
Tien Ti Hui was headed by a Northerner by the name of Chen Zing Nam – supposedly an internal kung fu expert. According to some, Chen was from WuDang and others from O-Mei. This is hard to ascertain now. The one sure thing archived records point to is that Chen is from internal boxing style.
And it is after this encounter with Chen that Chi Niang’s White Crane took on quite an overhaul.Internal boxing elements were integrated and concepts like 5 elements hand became the order of the day.
“Shong” or “relaxed” became a byword of training.
This “revamped” White Crane is what she taught in Fuzhou in the later part of her life.

In fact, if you visit most Fuzhou Cranes schools, you would find a Taoist Saint picture besides Chi Niang’s on the altar table. This is to demonstrate their Taoist or Internal roots.
So to evaluate Fukien and Fuzhou Cranes techniques is literally to compare internal and external style boxing.
Among the 4 major Fuzhou Cranes, personally I find MingHe (which is the other crane that I do) the most “internal” in requisites.
Stance is usually the “San Jiao Ma” or triangular stance. This is almost the same stance found in many Tai Chi. Jin is, as a rule, launched by the rear leg.
As a side note: I have always argued that Karate Ryu Ro Ku cannot be MingHe Xie Zhong Xian simply because the disparities between the 2 systems are just irreconcilably colossal.

A better way to view Fukien and Fuzhou Cranes side-by-side is to pick a common form, say San Zhan or San Chin, and scrutinize.


Jin is the result of combining hardness (bones) and softness (tendons and qi) accurately. It involves the loosening of muscles, sinking of qi, contracting of tendons, and the extension of bones--all at the same time, and at the moment when they can work together to produce powerful force. As such, it requires a lot of techniques and responsiveness be able to control so many things so fast, and timing has to be very precise. Jin is an essential element of most internal martial arts.
Note that most internal martial arts focus on the training of tendons, as opposed to muscles. Even though tendons might be considered just a special form of muscles by medical professionals, they're vastly different from muscles when it comes to internal martial arts trainings. Many high-level martial artists don't appear to be very muscular due to their focus on tendons' trainings.
HuaBaBu/Babulien is assigned the water element because of the Jin that one is supposed to train when doing this form. “Shui Lan” or “Water Wave” Jin is the goal. It is a little like silk cocoon Jin that you find in Chen Tai Chi except that there has more “rolling”to achieve the desired Jin.

The exercise that we do after this form goes like this:-

You stretch you right hand to my face area and I ward it of with my right palm - sort of like Wing Chun “Hu shao”. Immediately I roll my right hand towards your face and you do the exactly the same back to me. Hands are in contact throughout this drill.

And really this is how we fight, touch and go with little pause in between. You see this concept in action in all my forms, pull both palms in (palms inward) and release Jin instantly palms out. Look at my HuaBaBu/Bubulian you will see this action repeated many times “rolling” Jin. The whole idea is to stay relaxed and using the pulling in to generate the thrusting out reaction.

And this is also how we push, Jin applied in the hind leg to generate the reactive ground Jin that we direct to our hands. This is very effective if you crouch a little and then straighten your body to achieve the upwards thrust lift. A little like in Tai Chi but maybe harder in expression.

Get into the tiger claw push hand position i.e. my right claw touching the outside of your right claw. Usually the exercise is to push horizontally from left to right and vise-versa. In my system, we drop the elbow, with the claw hands still in contact, and using the dropping Jin to create the a sudden upwards palm thrust to the partner’s face.

I normally drop my partner to the floor with this dropping elbow.

• Punch – both the twisting Eng Choon and the more common “phoenix” eye punch found in Fuzhou cranes. Even here there are variations. You got the usual straight out phoenix punch sort of like the Wing Chun’s vertical punch except that you dip the knuckle at the end of execution. The idea is to hit the ribs or in-between the ribs when you are doing a middle gate punch. The other version is the “whipping” out delivery found mainly in my crane system. Here the sequence is dropping the elbow and the fist and then lashing out from this lowered position. The energy is mainly generated by twisting of the hips with the body staying relaxed. The descriptive poem is “Body like a willow, hands like bullets”. “Shen Ru Yang Liu, Shou Ru Tan” – not standard Hanyu – phonetic.

• Elbow – My system uses the elbow in many “bridge” smashing techniques. Naturally hard at the tip makes it a good breaking tool. The breaking is done is many ways. I am going to talk about one for illustration – a beginner’s technique. Against an incoming upper gate attack to your face, you apply a “Hu” palm deflection with one hand and smash the attacker’s hand with your other elbow. A good target is the inner side of the arm behind the thumb area – the earth point of the heart meridian. Or the outside behind the little finger – along the small intestine meridian. The “Hu” palm and elbow in must be timed together. Or if you meet a high sweep kick to your face area, like a Muay Thai kick, you could elbow the instep area of the foot instead of blocking.

• Palm – Comes in many forms. The back palm is a whipping and slapping out weapon. This is oftentimes aimed at upper gate at the eyes. The idea it to “attack east and hit the west” Like in Fu-Hoc, you “peck” the eyes and kick the crotch in one go, we do many such combos.
Warm up – very specific warm up techniques mimicking crane movements like “wings flapping” etc. These techniques are largely to relax joints and tendons – very essential for the kind of Fa-Jin that we do. An observer once remarked that we look like we are “shaking” – very true. The ‘dog shaking” jin is our aim.
• Forms – Every body does HuaBaBu/Babulien regardless of grades. 5 elements hand training is essential. After which, different level students would break up into smaller groups to do their own forms.
• 2 men drills – we have a very complex system of 2 men drills. Depending on levels, drills are added to enhance the mastering of forms. Sort of like bunkai of the forms. The drills are designed with the bunkai in mind.
• Fighting principles drills – this is something that is “exclusive” in my system. We have 12 different principles of fighting and every principle comes with its own individual drill. Going off-line to your opponent’s blind spot, both front and back, is the entry principles. First we do the stepping and then stepping and hitting at the same time.
We don’t really do iron shirt training per se in Fuzhou Crane.
Chin-Na comes under one of our fighting principles and in White Crane we do a lot of “pinching” of soft points
We also do a lot of “bridge breaking” – all along Meridians Channels/Dim Mak points on the arms and legs. So our “push-hand” looks more like “breaking hands”. Some older folks call them “thunder hands”.
Again this is in accordance with another of our fighting principles – “When hand meets hand, you got nowhere to go”.
• Hard but not rigid, Soft but not weak.
• All movements must flow fluently.
Jin is the result of combining hardness (bones) and softness (tendons and qi) accurately. It involves the loosening of muscles, sinking of qi, contracting of tendons, and the extension of bones--all at the same time, and at the moment when they can work together to produce powerful force. As such, it requires a lot of techniques and responsiveness be able to control so many things so fast, and timing has to be very precise. Jin is an essential element of most internal martial arts.

Note that most internal martial arts focus on the training of tendons, as opposed to muscles. Even though tendons might be considered just a special form of muscles by medical professionals, they're vastly different from muscles when it comes to internal martial arts trainings. Many high-level martial artists don't appear to be very muscular due to their focus on tendons' trainings.








Understanding Power (Tong Jing),
Following Power (Tzo Jing)
Neutralizing Power (Fa Jing),
Borrowing Power (Tzeh Jing),
Sticking Power (Tzan Lien Jing),
Listening Power (Ting Jing),
Understanding Power (Tong Jing),
Following Power (Tzo Jing),
Neutralizing Power (Fa Jing),
Borrowing Power (Tzeh Jing),
Drawing up Power (Ying Jing),
Uprooting Power (Ti Jing),
Sinking Power (Chen Jing),
Controling Power (Na Jing),
Open- up Power (Kai Jing),
Close up power (Ho Jing),
Deflecting Power (Boh Jing),
Rubbing Power (Chou Jing),
Twisting Power (Jzeh Jing),
Rolling Power (Jen Jing),
Spiral Power (Dzuen Jing),
Cutting Power (Tze Jing),
Cold Power (Nung Jing),
Interrupting Power (Tuan Jing),
Inch Power (Chuen Jing),
Fine Power (Fuen Jing),
Vibrating Bouncing Power (Dow Tiao Jing),
Vibrating Power (Dow So Jing),
Folding Power (Tzo the Jing),
Distance Power (Ling Kong Jing)

1) Tin Jin, Dong Jin. You have to use a small Jin to test the direction of a large Jin. You listen and understand the direction and amplitude of the opponent's Jin.

2) Zhan Nien Lein Suei. (Contact, stick, and follow)

You contact with your forearm and remain in contact. You shadow the opponent's movement.

3) Hwa and Fa Jin. (neutralization and release Jin at the same time.) Only Tai Ji has this due to Chan Si Jin.

In the Fuzhou crane’s version, the poem of this technique talks about “Using the knee to clear the path, so the leg can reach the target”.

This is a good example of our "ground reaction" jin training in Fuzhou Crane. We 'push" our jin into the ground and "bounce" off using the reaction.

The whole purpose of "Shong" is to tap reaction jin from everywhere - from the ground, from contact with opponent - any part of him.

There are fixed step (Ding Bu) and moving step (Fo Bu) Push hand drills in Tai Ji Quan.

There are single hand (Dan Shou) and both hands (Shuan Shou) drills.

Fixed step single hand; (Ding Bu Dan Shou Twei Shou)

You move your hand in a vertical circle and a horizontal circle with wrists or forearms in contact.

You practice slowly, faster and then at random speed.

In the vertical circle, you sense forward, backward, upward, downward and combined Jin's.

In the horizontal circle, you sense the leftward, rightward, forward, downward and combined Jin's.

You try to feel and sense the opponent's Jin in movement, your own Jin and the interaction from sticking together.

The 3 White Crane kicks

Actually there are more but they are minor kicks found in a one-off manner in certain higher forms. We do 12 forms in total.

1. The most often seen kick is the signature straight up kick in a flicking fashion using the instep for contact. This kick is directed to the groin, the straightened elbow “(bridge breaking), underside of opponent’s incoming kicks and also the face. The last require preparatory move of pulling or pushing opponent’s face to within range. Variations of this kick are projecting to the sides and in a curved manner to the centerline of the body. The basic form is also found in Hung Gar’s “Single Leg Flying Crane”. This is a very important kick in my White Crane. One of our fighting principles is this kick – named “mindless kick” in the poem. Imagine doing Wing Chun like Chi-Sau and doing this kick. Both from opponent’s front or moving off-line and training the kick up and between legs from his rear. The idea is to keep opponent very busy in the upper gate zone and doing this kick in a “mindless” non-telegraphic way. Also used in many 2-gates attack techniques like in Fu-Hoc. The crane-beak to the face and this kick to the groin. This type of expression is hidden and in Chinese terminology – a “ghost” kick.

2. White Crane Stepping On Snow. This is a very old kick – goes all the way back to the original Shaolin 5 Animals forms. I believe Fang Chi Niang, the founder of White Crane, learned this from her father, a Shaolin Lohan Boxer. Stepping or stomping is the essence here. In my style, this has since become a very faint movement. Using the leading hand to strike and accompanying it with a stomping action is how this kick is embedded in many of our forms. If you have a copy of the old 5 Animals manual, you’ll find this depicted as “White Crane Stepping on snow”. Only difference is that the Shaolin’s version is done with a very high knee lift – not so appropriate for a woman.

3. The third kick is a sliding to the side side-kick without sole losing contact with ground surface. Nothing new here – you find this in numerous Northern and Southern Styles kung fu. Very outstanding in Northern Mantis for instance. Even some Hsing I do this and they call it “Swallow skimming Water”. In the White Crane that I do, this is repeated many times in my “Flying Crane” or “Long Limb” crane component.

The underlining quality of all 3 above is that they are done “hidden from plain sight” and therefore classified as “ghost kicks”.

Chang spelled out the principles of White Crane Boxing. It requires the uniting of sinew, spirit, chi, power and strength. The art is based on the circle: everything should accord with roundness.

The biceps (tiger) should rise,

The forearms (dragon) was always rounded,

The rising thighs (leopard) are combines with the claw hand, which