The Five Precepts

[JK Walz]

The Five Precepts:

1. Refraining from killing any living being.
2. Refraining from taking what is not given.
3. Refraining from sexual misconduct.
4. Refraining from wrong speech.
5. Refraining from taking drinks and drugs which fuddle the mind and reduce mindfulness.

Who on this forum tries to live by these? I'm not an expert on religion but I think you could take all of the rules and regulations of all religions worldwide and boil them all down to these five precepts- don't kill, don't steal, don't screw around, don't lie, don't drink (or do drugs).

I wonder if they are arranged in importance? I could certainly see "don't kill" being the most important and probably easiest to follow! Does this apply to just people or animals as well? Plants? Bacteria? I wonder if there are conditions for this precept. Maybe interpretation of the 5 Precepts is where difference between certain groups arise.

I think the most difficult to follow would be "wrong speech" because it is so natural and such a habit for people to at least sort of twist the truth in their favor. This can be so subtle- you don't want people to see the real "you" so you mask yourself in little lies. I always find it refreshing to take a step back and detach myself from this sort of behavior and try to see what the real ramifications of telling the "truth" might be. Get rid of all of the BS and you might find people like you a lot better!

Don't steal- I bet this applies not only to physical things but others such as intellectual property, taking credit for things you did not do yourself, taking someone's dignity...etc.

Refraining from sexual misconduct. What exactly does this mean? Obviously things like violent rape and cheating on your spouse apply but what about pre-marital sex? Pornography? Masturbation? Cheating on your spouse has always led to big trouble no matter what culture or religion you are. No culture would be complete without a rule or law that tries to prevent the destruction that results from the jealousy caused by a cheating spouse or partner. What do you think "sexual misconduct" means in the Buddhist or Ch'an perspective.

Don't Drink- Anything? Ever? At all? Under no circumstances? Again- alcohol and drugs cause a lot of social problems if not handled correctly- this is obvious! Alcoholism, drug addiction, harm done to others due to the carelessness caused by another's intoxication. The list of social woes caused by booze is endless.

In the real world I doubt there is anyone alive who can follow an of these all the time- is this an expression of the "middle path"? Is it a friends place to tell someone when they are way out of line on one of these? The sex, booze, and killing ones seem the easiest to follow yet cause the most obvious harm if violated. The other two, stealing and lying, are much harder to follow yet can cause very deep and subtle harm to others.

Anyone else want to comment?

JK

[passing_through]

The Five Precepts:

1. Refraining from killing any living being.
2. Refraining from taking what is not given.
3. Refraining from sexual misconduct.
4. Refraining from wrong speech.
5. Refraining from taking drinks and drugs which fuddle the mind and reduce mindfulness.

Who on this forum tries to live by these?

Yo!

"don't kill" being the most important and probably easiest to follow!

I don't know that it is... don't kill any living being? You're immune system kills bacteria all the time - same as when you bathe. Murderer! Also, killing doesn't have to be just physical death - ever heard the phrase "kill with a word?" You can kill someone's spirit by being mean or harsh - but sometimes you have to kill someone's ego which is a kind of death too. I prefer the translation of murder rather than kill. Murder has the sense of premeditation and planning about it - a willful action. There are times and places where you have to kill - the defense of your own life or the life of another is one example. In those circumstances, you've been forced into a situation rather than willing choose to take a life. If you think about it, refrain from killing any living being means that we should all eat only fruit that has fallen off the tree. That understanding moves away from the middle path, away from realizing people are where they are. A plant is a living being – some Buddhists consider a living being any being that can pray, meaning humans, and eat anything they like. Some are vegetarians – but eat fish because they consider that fish is not meat.

"wrong speech" can also include flattery or saying things to make people like you - not just lying but also gossiping, telling offensive jokes, etc.

Refraining from sexual misconduct - sex with emotionally mature, available adults. No diddling with someone else's wife/husband, no kids... everything else is open, pretty much. This precept is interpreted different ways by different groups.

Don't Drink- Anything? Ever? At all? Under no circumstances? - Don't get drunk/stoned. You can drink, but don't lose your self-control. It comes back to mindfulness.

In the real world, you can follow all of these - but realize that you're human, emotions and all. You'll have moments of rage over the stupidest of things, you'll want to get out of a bad situation with some quick words, you might have straying thoughts, take ideas and present them as your own, or even get drunk... these are things that hurt yourself in the long run but you'll do them. You're human.

In my experience, the Precepts serve as a moral compass for people that don't have one; if you don't have an internal moral compass, you need one imposed on you from the outside. The reason for moral guidance is that it helps to get you moving in the right directions - thinking about the consequences of your actions both for yourself and for others. Once you start thinking about your actions, you can do something about them to make them better. In order to escape from the world of suffering, you have to clearly see the source of your suffering. How can you see the source if you don't even recognize the repercussions of your actions? Learning to control your desires leads to a lessening of suffering over time. One step on the ladder out of suffering.

==========
There is an excellent discussion of the Precepts here, under Right Action from the 7th World of Chan:

http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/c14p1.html

1. Aggressions, especially violent aggressions, against others.
2. Deceitful words or deeds
3. Illicit sexual activity
4. Theft
5. Use of mind-altering substances habitually, dependently, or to an intoxicating degree.
==========

[Cang Long]

Who on this forum tries to live by these?--JK Here I believe is where living for the moment comes into play if you try to get ahead of yourself before the moment presents itself you lose this moment same could be said about living or reliving the past. If you are following the 5 precepts this very moment there is nothing else. Think how content we would all be if everyone of us enjoyed the same exact moment in time wow! For now my hope is that you enjoy this moment as much as I.


peace,






"...Therefore the truly great man dwells on what is real
and not what is on the surface,
On the fruit and not the flower.
Therefore accept the one and reject the other. "

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by passing_through
==========
There is an excellent discussion of the Precepts here, under Right Action from the 7th World of Chan:

http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/c14p1.html

==========

Thanks Jeremy- great link! Sorry this reply took so long but....

I find your comment about the lack or a moral compass interesting. I think all people (other than the rare amoral sociopath) have a moral compass. We know what is right and what is wrong- we know we shouldn't kill, steal, lie, screw the neighbors wife, or get drunk. I think most people spend their whole lives trying to live by one of the precepts (or commandments or whatever you want to call them) at a time but fail at another at the same time. The act of endlessly trying to live a moral life and failing must cause as much suffering as attachment to material things!

I see a parallel between trying to live by the precepts (and failing) and being the Hungry Ghost described in the Chan article in another sub-forum. Consumed by desires (drinking, sex, cheating, lying, greed) the Hungry Ghost lives an empty and direction-less life. I guess the recognition of this state is the first step in leaving the "swamp"....

JK

[passing_through]

I find your comment about the lack or a moral compass interesting. I think all people (other than the rare amoral sociopath) have a moral compass.

Having a moral compass and following it are two different things. The act of accepting the Precepts give someone a path to follow rather than relying on their own judgment 'cause their own judgment has been lacking. Sometimes it's easier to live up to someone else's expectation of us than our own expectation of ourselves. We know the content of our heart - but other people don't see what we feel. Funny thing about the brain, it doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality. So, if we start acting more morally, our brain starts to change the way it thinks over time and we actually become moral over time. And once we have the necessary internal condition, the Precepts cease to exist, we simply live our lives and our actions are in harmony with the Precepts. As long as we think “follow the Precepts” we’re separate from them. We’re truly not at harmony – but it takes time to have the Precepts become a part of our self-identity.

The act of endlessly trying to live a moral life and failing must cause as much suffering as attachment to material things!

It might, it might not - depends on the person. However, taking your statement at face value, are you suggesting that we should avoid both a moral life and attachment to material things? Much like the other thread about being able to read when the letters are mixed up, you first have to know how to read proper words before you can read improper words. Before you can live without attachments, you have to have attachments - otherwise, what do you gain by giving them up? Give up nothing and you receive nothing. Imagine raising your kids without morals or attachment to material things – will they have any ambition in life or know how to interact with other people?

I guess the recognition of this state is the first step in leaving the "swamp"....

yup - you can't escape if you don't realize you're trapped in the first place.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by passing_through


So, if we start acting more morally, our brain starts to change the way it thinks over time and we actually become moral over time. And once we have the necessary internal condition, the Precepts cease to exist, we simply live our lives and our actions are in harmony with the Precepts. As long as we think “follow the Precepts” we’re separate from them. We’re truly not at harmony – but it takes time to have the Precepts become a part of our self-identity.

I understand this. It is just like (exactly like if thinking of the 5th precept) a drug addict or an alcoholic who decides to change their ways. First they have to admit there is a problem. Next they need to realize there is a solution. Then they need to activley seek out the solution and re-train themselves so that the new lifestyle or behavioral profile becomes natural. Essentialy they are learning new habits. The same applies to over eaters. A whacky diet (cult?) is not the solution. The solution is re-training eating habits. Unforunately a lot of people think they have learned a new habit and after only a few weeks find themselves "off the wagon" quickly.



However, taking your statement at face value, are you suggesting that we should avoid both a moral life and attachment to material things?

Ha! You have your choice of 4 possibilites:

1. No morals, with attachements
2. No morals, without attachments
3. Morals, with attachments
4. Morals, without attachments

I wonder where most people would place themselves if they had to pick one catagory (no "in between"). I would place myself in 3 trying to get to 4 but amazed at how difficult it is!

Imagine raising your kids without morals or attachment to material things – will they have any ambition in life or know how to interact with other people?

This reminds me- I asked Sigung this question (or something close to it) Saturday:

"Is a new born baby the closest to Buddhahood than at any other point in it's life?"

What do you think?


yup - you can't escape if you don't realize you're trapped in the first place.

I think a lot of people are comfortable in the swamp!

JK

[passing_through]

Is a new born baby the closest to Buddhahood than at any other point in it's life?

What do you think?

No - cause a baby doesn't know what it's looking at, mindless of the world. Like I wrote above, you have to have an attachment before you can be liberated from it. You can't just spontaneously go from nothing to enlightenment, from Fau Kiu to Weng Kiu - there has to be a bridge. Even using Hui Neng as an example, he was an illiterate who because enlightened upon hearing part of the Diamond Sutra - but he wasn't ignorant of life. He'd lived his life and something in his experience resonated with the Diamond Sutra and he was enlightened. While Hui Neng was living a Fau Kiu live, his experience of life was the Saan Kiu and the words of the monk he heard were also Saan Kiu - bridges to realizing Weng Kiu. But realize the Fau/Saan/Weng to which I refer are not the same Fau/Saan/Weng of HFY - I'm only making an analogy not drawing a parallel in experience.

I think a lot of people are comfortable in the swamp!

We get used to where we are at and don't see/know there is a better way. I think most people wouldn't willingly choose the swamp but the work to get out is too much of a cost. This is why Chan uses the 6 World model... only Humans can escape the Swamp. All the rest are caught up in attachments and lost. The attachments are stronger than their resolve to escape the swamp. You can't help people that won't (or can't) help themselves.

[gilsinger]

I see it in a different way than that. Not that I want to argue, not at all.

I'm a beginner.

The way I'm seeing it, I train Hung Fa Yi, I learn about meditation, I live as the essentially good man that I've always lived as, I'm considerate, well-spoken, well-mannered (when I am aware of a custom), and moderate in most things already. I learn a little about Chan, I see the logic and the potential benefit of it, I assess my flaws, strive to remove them, even have early experiences and conceptions of being "in the moment" without ego, without determination of like or dislike, wanting or disdain. I recognize that I'm not in the position to be a monk, I'm a BEGINNER. I recognize that I started learning only recently and I'm not about to put on a display for anybody about anything, physically or philisophically - yo, over here, a beginner talking.
Then after some days of this, I'll have an experience that reveals clearly what a portion of my self is like, that isn't governed by ego.
Then I try to allow that to govern my actions a little more actively, so that more of my actions are not governed by ego.

It seems, ultimately, that such a chain of events would lead to a state where your actions were governed so little by ego that you would be "closer to reality" in deed and awareness. You would be less distorted by cumbersome unnecessary judgements, and therefore be more in harmony with simply what is.

I see Karma as the sum of all "reasons why", bound to time and space, so which came first? Should I even wonder?

So hook me up, because I don't know if I'm approaching this even close to correctly, and I'm very interested in it.

[passing_through]

I see it in a different way than that.

Than what? There's a lot written up there ^_^

Then I try to allow that to govern my actions a little more actively, so that more of my actions are not governed by ego.

Footsteps out of the swamp. Pretty much on the right track. The more you read and train, the more ably you walk the path.

I see Karma as the sum of all "reasons why", bound to time and space,

This is as good a description of Karma as I've seen anywhere. Karma is consequence - cause and effect, the "reasons why".

so which came first? Should I even wonder?

What does it matter? You've got to have time to have space and space to have time. They're mutually dependant. Now, we could get into a discussion of First Causes, meaning, what was the first cause that put everything into motion, but what good does that do, really? (http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2002/om20020914.html) Someone'll just eat your popcorn and no one wants that.

For our intents and purposes, we can't really know if/what a First Cause truly was - so look at your own first causes and the consequences of those causes. There's a story of one of Buddha's followers coming up and demanding answers to 10 metaphysical questions (things like, why am I here? What's the universe made out of? What happens at the end of the universe? What was there before the universe was created?) The follower made his following anything the Buddha had to say dependant on how the Buddha answered the 10 questions.

The Buddha basically shuts him down by replying, you're like a person dying of a poison arrow and rather than have the arrow removed you want to know who made the arrow, what were they wearing, where were they standing, what were they thinking, etc. Instead, remove the arrow and you'll have life. Leave the arrow in and you'll die. Simple as that. Our ego wants to know all sorts of things - things that really don't matter a whole lot in the scheme of our individual lives.

You're doing fine.

[gilsinger]

Yes, I should have clarified.

I was referring to "learning new habits". As I read that post again about finding a solution and then learning new habits, I think of the solution as breaking old habits. As a beginner, I am thinking more of simplifying.

So I wasn't disagreeing. I am just thinking more of stripping away and allowing my nature to have a less distorted view of reality, than to leave everything just the way it is and build upon it. That's where I'm at as a beginner, remove imperfections from my structure, my nature. There are many habits to break, as well as to learn, for me.

I appreciate the exchange.
You're right, I want some popcorn.

[Levi]

Originally posted by JK Walz
I understand this. It is just like (exactly like if thinking of the 5th precept) a drug addict or an alcoholic who decides to change their ways. First they have to admit there is a problem. Next they need to realize there is a solution. Then they need to activley seek out the solution and re-train themselves so that the new lifestyle or behavioral profile becomes natural.

You know, if we add another step bewteen your #1 and your #2 (namely, identify the problem), then you basically have described the Four Noble Truths:

Using your drug-addiction example, and some quotes from http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/fourtruths.html


1. Recognize that there is a problem - Life doesn't feel right/not happy (Life means suffering.)

2. Identify the problem - Drug Addiction (The origin of suffering is attachment.)

3. Realize there is a solution - Need to quit (The cessation of suffering is attainable.)

4. Implement solution - Actually quit - (The path to the cessation of suffering, or The Eightfold Path).

Well said JK!

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

[Ben@HFY]

First I want to emphasize that I'm certainly not a Chan specialist!
I'm just a guy who is trying to experience reality.

I grew up in an area where the majority of the people had a different religion than I have. In day-to-day life there was a clear distinction between the people of one religion and people of the other religions. Different schools, different organisation for hobbies like sports, music etc., different holidays, no inter-religion marriages etc. 'My group' was the minority . . . on elementary school and high school substantial time was devoted to study the various religions; differences and common things.

Things have changed enormously. The 'group separation' that I mentioned before is (almost) gone and invisible for the untrained eye. One thing that I still remember from studying those religions is that they all had one thing in common: harmony!

When I read or hear about the five precepts, for me it has to do with 'harmony'. I see the five precepts as a kind of guide-lines to live your life in harmony. A kind of 'how to' rules, all aimed at living in harmony.

Rgds,

Ben

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Ben@HFY
When I read or hear about the five precepts, for me it has to do with 'harmony'. I see the five precepts as a kind of guide-lines to live your life in harmony. A kind of 'how to' rules, all aimed at living in harmony.


Here is a question for you:

In harmony with what?

JK

[Cang Long]

ok, lets see ...
In your state of being whomever you might be you are yang and all that you perceive is ying and the harmony or lack there of that exist between the two equals Dao, in a nutshell. Doesn't it seem as though confusion reigns when we try and make life any harder than that. At least that is my take on things at this moment.

[Levi]

Originally posted by JK Walz
In harmony with what?

I think it's easier than that. My understanding is that the 5 Precepts (alongside the 8 Fold Path) would facilitate living in harmony with the Buddha Nature that we all share.

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

[Cang Long]

Sihing Taltos
The 5 precepts and 8 fold path can carry the possibilty of attachment that is why I removed them from my part of the discussion. I do agree buddha nature is key though it does not require the 5 precepts or 8 fold path. all that is required is being for harmony just exist we don't create harmony if not for our own sense of fua kiu we don't have to seek harmony we need to remove those things that we do by our own action that move us away from what was already.

[passing_through]

"with the Buddha Nature that we all share"

This only begs the question - what's Buddha Nature? How do we all share it? Who is we? What is share?

The more we dig into anything, the more we find there is to be found. Further, the 5 Precepts (alongside the 8 Fold Path) would facilitate living in harmony - should it then be concluded that only by following the 5 Precepts and the 8 Fold Path can one have harmony? I'm only pointing out questions as a way to understand that what we say/type and what we mean can often be very far apart. So long as words are used to convey meaning, there will be as many interpretations of the words as there are readers of the words. This is the reason for the necessity of Hau Chyun San Sau - discussion and action linked together.

===

In your state of being whomever you might be you are yang and all that you perceive is yin and the harmony or lack there of that exist between the two equals Dao, in a nutshell.

This is only my self-identity, the Siu Nim: my state of being and my perceptions. Who or what says either of these are real, true, lasting, proper, correct, etc.? This is the fau kiu level of existence - all about me. There's still layers beyond myself but I can't see them or won't find them until I'm squared away first. Using Tony's idea of "harmony or lack there of", think of the Precepts as a way to guide myself towards harmony (however that is defined in this discussion).

===

from Webster's online:

Harmony is
1 archaic : tuneful sound : MELODY
2 a : the combination of simultaneous musical notes in a chord b : the structure of music with respect to the composition and progression of chords c : the science of the structure, relation, and progression of chords
3 a : pleasing or congruent arrangement of parts <a painting exhibiting harmony of color and line> b : CORRESPONDENCE, ACCORD <lives in harmony with her neighbors> c : internal calm : TRANQUILLITY
4 a : an interweaving of different accounts into a single narrative b : a systematic arrangement of parallel literary passages (as of the Gospels) for the purpose of showing agreement or harmony

Of all these meanings of the word, which was the closest to your meaning Ben?

[Levi]

The way I see the 5 Precepts and the 8 Fold Path (and the 3 Poisons to avoid, et all.) is that they represent "milestones" or "bumbers" to me that keep me mindful. Sort of like a "perception and interaction quality control device." In much the same way that a map is not required in order to reach a destination, it could serve to keep you from becoming totally lost. On the other hand, I've known plenty of people who became completely lost even with the aid of the most descriptive maps available, both literally and metaphysically.

I try to be very cautious with my word choices in order to avoid confusion ("would facilitate" does not indicate exclusivity or absolute necessity to me), but since communication is a two way street with any number if interpretations sprinkled down the alley, the message originally formed is rarely the message sent, and almost never the message finally perceived and interpreted.

I agree with Sisuk Jeremy in that we must always be aware that, no matter how much effort we put into the commuication, what we say/write/etc is rarely (if ever) exactly what we meant. Because of this, we should also remember that what someone else shares with us is rarely (if ever) exactly what they meant, either.

Hou Chyun San Sau - not only hearing and interpreting and understanding, but also implementing and (if I may be so bold) testing and challenging, is so vitally important to any meaningful understanding on any level, about any subject.

Although the sermon spoke more speficially to the spiritual nature of our condition, the first statement in The Zen Teachings of Bodhidharma, Translated by Red Pine, speaks volumes to me:

MANY roads lead to the Path, but basically there are only two: reason and practice.

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

[Savi]

I am actually learning much from this discussion. Though much of what is being discussed is still too near to me, I cannot comment much yet.

I have spent much of my life living by what I called "5 rules of life" which my father (a practicing Buddhist) taught me when I was about 4 years old. Yeah, I remember that... He told me out of the thousands of rules praised by Buddha, he only asked me to live by these 5, as they are easy to remember:

1. Do not kill
2. Do not steal
3. Do not lie
4. Do not intoxicate yourself
5. Do not commit adultrous acts

I never knew how truly connected these were to Buddhism, but I always knew it would help me stay true to my heart. I spent much of my life engraining it into my spirit.

Fau Kiu years:
To this day, I feel on the micro-scale of things, I have not broken #5. Most of these rules I have broken during my Fau Kiu years in life (childhood). I've killed insects, I've stolen toys and lied when I was young.

Saan Kiu years:
I broke the intoxication rule on my 21st birthday. Threw up my pizza after I passed out from tequila..... never again man.... I quit drinking alcohol about two months ago - like I was ever a hard drinker! I would only drink on social occasions like clubs or BBQ's. But I've re-established my commitment to this rule.

Today, I now recognize these 5 rules as the Five Precepts. I also have learned that there is more where these rules came from. I am enjoying the discussion here fellas. Thanks!

[Cang Long]

Sisuk Jeremy,
This is the fau kiu level of existence - all about me.
I see how it could be interpreted as such but none the less I would like to believe it to be closer to saan kiu considering there was some effort put forth to make it so. Originally I stated --In your state of being whomever you might be you are yang and all that you perceive is ying and the harmony or lack there of that exist between the two equals Dao..." To me I was saying its all about the Dao The Dao is harmony, why because the dao is everything. Within the dao there exist harmony and disharmony, within the dao there exist me and all perception. All that there is, is the dao everything we do naturally tries to return us to the dao "Buddha nature". If you were standing on a circle and do good you move closer to dao if you do wrong you move away from dao yet after passing 180o you again would be moving closer to dao.

[Ben@HFY]

In harmony with what?

Reality . . . including yourself!

groetjes,

Ben

[JK Walz]

I found this link:

http://www.hsuyun.com/becomingabuddhist.html


JK