A Piece of the Pie

[DubChenBadanger]

I have been a part of the Wing Tsun family in the US for quite a few years now(over 20 years) and still cannot figure out why Keith Kernspecht hasn't moved here and promoted our great art.
He has done so much throughout Europe to promote WT and our Sifu it would be nice if we could at least borrow him for a decade or two to get the organization here off the ground. Emin gave it a shot but he is not the business man Keith is, bottom line!
If he could buy a castle in Europe imagine what he could do here. I know several of my brothers would have a problem with this. My thought is that we could all benefit from his business sense and promotional skills. His ability to promote would increase our image and we would all benefit as a whole.
There is plenty of pie for the whole family.
Time to offer our older brother a piece.
BD

[Armin]

Hi DB,

that sounds like a good idea - it will mean, that we will get rid of KRK! ;)

But KRK is already so rich, he doesn't need the extra-income. BTW: he didn't buy a castle, he just rented a small room in a castle, like several other companies, too.

Well, I'm not sure why KRK doesn't 'has his fingers' in the the US. Maybe he tried to do that through Emin, but that didn't work. Emin had too many problems from the beginning. There was this bad story about him and William Cheung, making people too angry (esp. the boss of the black-belt magazine). That lead to very bad 'anti-marketing' against him.

As far as I remember, Leung Ting was 'chief' in the US before Emin and now he is again. Both of them aren't as good as KRK in doing business, that's true.

But the question is, if the way of doing business like KRK does it would work in the US. You guys are as stupid as we are, but I'm not sure if he would find so many people willing to pay so much for what he has to sell.

Ok, it's not what he sells, it's the way how he sells it. In the early days, if you wanted to learn e. g. the wooden dummy form, he showed you the first set (left side) and you had to pay 350 DM (about 175 US-$). Than he would show you the first set (right side) - for the same price. Than, of course, you have to learn the chi sao-sets, pushing the price in the end to the value of a small house. :eek:

Well, one final word. As far as I know, KRK always had the habbit to use the knowledge of his students. He put some people in charge for marketing and stuff like that and let these people do the work. He really behaves like a ceo - he gives people an aim ('we need something like Billy Blanks') and lets them figure out the details.


Armin.

[DubChenBadanger]

You are right in thinking that most Americans are stupid. How do you think Bush got elected?
You brought up Black Belt Magazine. More proof that the people in this country love to be misled.
That rag and Inside Kung Fu (CFW Enterprises) are tabloid trash at best. I think the term "Pay to Play" fits the garbage they print the best. If you spend thousands of bucks in advertising revenue you are a great Grandmaster no matter who you are. Take Paulie Zink for example. He claims to be a lineage holder of Tai Shing Pek Kwar (Monkey Kung Fu). He is an absolute phony. I am a student of Grandmaster Chan Sau Cheung THE world recognized lineage holder of Tai Shing Pek Kwar also known in Hong Kong as the Monkey King.
He has publically denounced Zink as a phony but CFW stands behind Paulie to the point of defending him. Why because there are tons of revenues in his phony video tapes. We sit around and watch Paulies tapes and laugh at how ridiculous he looks. He doesn't know anything about TSPK except for what he read about in my Sifu's book (which by the way Zink had the nerve to steal photos out of).
I guess what I'm getting at is in the US people are grossly misled and we need someone who has the money and knowledge to come over here and set things right.
From what I know of Keith Kernspecht, he would be my choice.
DB

[duende]

Grettings DubChenBadanger and Armin,

I've heard from several sources that it takes 20 years to complete the 3 forms and wooden dummy sections of LTWC in Germany. Weapon sections more after that. Also that this 20 year learning program costs about $60,000 US.

How well do you think a business model such as this could do here in America where there is alreeady many other established WC kwoons???

I'm curious to hear your perspectives.

Regards,

Alex

[Armin]

Hi BD!

Please re-read (to make that clear again):

You guys are as stupid as we are
Thank God, we didn't hat the choice to vote for Bush. :D

@ duende:

This seems to be the best point for all the critizism on WT. But it really doesn't hit the mark! In other family-styles you learn everything in 3 to 7 years, that's true. But it takes them several years to 'master' this stuff. In the end, they spend the same time on mastering their forms and exercises.

In theory, a WT-student spends his time on mastering the first step, than he takes the next. Students from other wing chun-styles spend a little time on learning something, than they go on to the next exercise and after having learned everything they start trying to master what they learned.

Well, it's the theory. The problem has different aspects. The first aspect (or point of critic) is, that due to having to pass tests, most people start 'hunting' for grades without taking their time to realls learn what they are presented. Most technician-degrees over here could be easily beat up by small girls.

A little story to that point (still makes me laughing): After four years of concentrated WT-training, I was allowed to open my own school. Well, the first day, there were about 10 interested people. I stood right in front of them and I wanted to start the siu nim tao with them. But than I realized, that I had no idea of how to do the siu nim tao!!! :eek: The last two years, I had only been training chum kiu and applications - not siu nim tao! I remembered the first two sets, and that's what we trained for the next 10 minutes. The next few days, I spend my nights with training siu nim tao again.

Here you see the problem. Most people only learn what they need for the test. And I know some sifu of the EWTO that don't train siu nim tao with their students (the assistants have to do that) - but not because they don't like to train that form, it's because they don't remember it correctly!

The second very important point of critic is, that the programs you have to learn (and to pay for) are kind of too 'thin'. There's too much stuff and too less WT in it. The programms seem to be stretched. Why? Most people think, to make more money.

Than, of course, there's the most important point of discussion (but most people miss that point, too). Sure, WT has its principles and concepts. But these are only technical. WT, like most other wing chun-styles, operates on a technical level and only scratches at the concept-level. That's why the EWTO has to do politics, i. e. keep techniques and applications secret - they have nothing else to sell!

How does that look like? Take Emin Boztepe as an example. For years and years he was THE fighter/teacher of the EWTO, KRK's beloved son. After Emin left the EWTO, KRK claimed, that Emin never learned the 'real WT'. Emin never showed up to teachers-seminars, in fact he even never learned the complete wooden dummy-form and he never even touched the knives. That's what KRK said.


Again @ BD:

KRK really would be the best choice as a marketing-director. But remember what went on over here, as finally came out, that he doesn't teach, what Leung Ting taught him! That was the only good deed Sergio Iadarola ever did. Even to his closest friends, KRK never showed 'real WT'.

Does Leung Ting know that? I don't know, I can only guess that Leung Ting is kind of dependent on KRK (financially) - maybe that's why Leung Ting tries to build up his 'own' organisation in the US ... without KRK.


And one more thing: Please keep in mind, that I don't say, that WT is less effective than other wing chun-styles. It's different, yes, but it works - or else the EWTO wouldn't have become so big!

To my point of view (very personal!!!), WT (and most other styles) lack, what real ving tsun is about: efficiency. Sure, they are more eficient than other systems. But there can be more to that, if only people would start thinking in concepts and not in techniques. And of course, 'most efficiency' can only be reached if one trains Hung Fa Yi. :p


Greetings,

Armin.

[DubChenBadanger]

I am only trying to make one point and that is the need that Wing Tsun has to spread in the United States. While my Sifu, Leung Ting is "in charge" here, I believe he is still "in charge" of the EWTO as well.
He is still the head of the entire organization and always will be. I have told all my students that he is their teacher and that he is in charge. That is the reason Emin got the boot. He failed to realize the he had no students. They all belong to The Grandmaster. I liked Emin. He was just not a savy business person. Neither was Keith Sommberg, Robert Jaquet, or this new guy. I paid my yearly dues back in March and still haven't gotten my passport yet, but that is business as usual here and that is one of many problems that have never been properly addressed.
The problem in the United States is that the promoters here suck and always have.
There is a lot of money to be made and greed has suffocated reason.
As far as I know Leung Ting is independently wealthy and does not need KRK's money. KRK wouldn't have much money if it weren't for his association with our Sifu and I'm sure he appreciates that or he wouldn't have gotten as far as he has in our organization.
I agree with you Armin about the fact that Wing Tsun must be learned correctly and not rushed. It doesn't matter what the cost, it matters what you get for your money. If I thought I was getting ripped off by my Sifu I would seek another. I know quite a bit about the other families yet I am still here. It is also the reason I have put up with the politics all these years. I consider it an honor to be in my Sifu's service.
DB

[sauchi]

I agree with you Armin about the fact that Wing Tsun must be learned correctly and not rushed. It doesn't matter what the cost, it matters what you get for your money. If I thought I was getting ripped off by my Sifu I would seek another. I know quite a bit about the other families yet I am still here. It is also the reason I have put up with the politics all these years. I consider it an honor to be in my Sifu's service.

Hey DB

I respect your dedication and loyalty to your sifu.

If by any chance someone showed you differently and you saw a new light on WC - like Benny Meng for example, would you continue on your path with your sifu or would you consider other options?

Sauchi

[sihing]

Originally posted by sauchi
Hey DB

I respect your dedication and loyalty to your sifu.

If by any chance someone showed you differently and you saw a new light on WC - like Benny Meng for example, would you continue on your path with your sifu or would you consider other options?

Sauchi

Sauchi,

And I respect your dedication and loyalty to your Sifu.

If by chance YOU had a oppotunity to learn from someone different a new light on WC- like myself or my Sifu, would you continue on your path with your sifu or would you consider another path?

James

[DubChenBadanger]

If anyone were to show me a better way, I would be a fool if I didn't take it.
How about you?:eek:
You guys should come out the Coast, catch some salmon, and train sometime
or next time I'm in town I'll stop by your gym.

DB

[sauchi]

Hey Guys,

If by chance YOU had a oppotunity to learn from someone different a new light on WC- like myself or my Sifu, would you continue on your path with your sifu or would you consider another path?

That is a difficult question for me too. If it came to WC, I would.
I don't want anyone to think that I would jump ship for the first thing that pass in the wind though. I would talk to my sifu first and ask permission.

I did come across with an excellent Tai Chi Teacher with great skill and historical background and I wanted to learn from him too.
But being that Sifu Gee has an extensive Tai Chi background, I didn't want to insult him and also act inappropriate with manners.

After weighing all the factors, I decided not to do it and just focus on Wing Chun.

But it was tempting to do both.


Sauchi

[DubChenBadanger]

I would not advise going to your instructor and asking permission. Just do it. If you are being taught the real deal you will come back and your Sifu knows it. That can be the problem.
I have had many teachers and none who would not take me back. You don't have to burn the gym down when you leave.
Never be afraid to look around.
Blind loyalty is usually is a nerd's excuse for being a wimp!
DB

[sihing]

Originally posted by sauchi
Hey Guys,



That is a difficult question for me too. If it came to WC, I would.
I don't want anyone to think that I would jump ship for the first thing that pass in the wind though. I would talk to my sifu first and ask permission.

I did come across with an excellent Tai Chi Teacher with great skill and historical background and I wanted to learn from him too.
But being that Sifu Gee has an extensive Tai Chi background, I didn't want to insult him and also act inappropriate with manners.

After weighing all the factors, I decided not to do it and just focus on Wing Chun.

But it was tempting to do both.


Sauchi

Sauchi,

That is good to hear. For me, if I was independently wealthy and had the time and ability to travel with out the money effect, I would like to experience somethings out there. The WC I know though would always be my base and I would love it the most for sure. Mostly for me it would be nice to experience other master's or instructors in art I am interested in, mostly other WC guys, and it would be a pleasure to meet GM Gee or Sifu Meng some day to.

Anyways thanks your honesty..

James

[sauchi]

Hi Guys,

I have been thinking about this question if presented with the opportunity to learn from another master and I was independantly wealthly and can devote all of my time to doing martial arts.

I guess it came down to for me was the situation, of course everyone has a different position and perspective.

If lets say the student was an ordinary student just going to class and had no special relationship with the master like a discipleship, it would be ok to experience other martial arts and other instructors.

But if the student had a relationship with his master then it would seem to me out of etiquette and gung fu culture if the student had just left without saying something.

If I were the sifu and one of my close students just upped and left without saying why of course I would wonder what happened.

An Example that came to my mind would be like a parent-child relationship where I took the time to teach the child what I know and spent time with him to bring him to the person he became at that present time, I would expect that he would give me some explanation of what is happening with his life that he would be away.

Not all sifus may be happy that their students leave them for someone else. But then again that depends on the relationship the student teacher has and what type of people and personalities are the student and the Sifu too.

my 2 cents :D

Sauchi

[DubChenBadanger]

If I had no monetary attachments I would invest in a temple where all teachers could come and teach. House three or four different styles under one roof year round, book every kung fu grandmaster passing through town for seminars, open up a pro shop, and of course hold our own shows er um tournaments.
:rolleyes:
DB

[Armin]

Hi!

But luckily, we all have these monetary problems - or else, the small amount we pay loses it's worth. If you don't have to work for your money, you don't value it. ;)

Back to topic. Yes, if you have a close realtionship to your sifu, you should ask him, if you are allowed to take a look at some other sifu. But it's vice versa, too. Your sifu should give you the opportunity to learn somewhere else.

I remember, in my stundent's manual of Yip Man Ving Tsun, Yifu Meng describes several journeys through the system - and one journey is about metting with other stylists and train/talk/exchange experiences with them.

And didn't GM Moy Yat send sifu Meng away, to learn the but jum dao somewhere else?

Well, I tell my students, to take part in seminars of other systems. First, to take the idea of all systems being able to train in friendship together outside of our school. Second, to see how other systems solve problems we share and maybe to experience problems, they don't face in daily training. And third, how to you want to defend against a boxer/karateka/wu shu-guy/or else, if you don't know how he'll attack?


Armin.

[sauchi]

Hi Guys,

If I had no monetary attachments I would invest in a temple where all teachers could come and teach. House three or four different styles under one roof year round, book every kung fu grandmaster passing through town for seminars, open up a pro shop, and of course hold our own shows er um tournaments.


That sounds so wonderful, I would definitely come and visit. I have a similiar dream. I would also like to have meditation sessions of moving meditation and sitting mediation too.

It could be like the Jing Wu school but in the West.


Back to reality, so where is the money going to come from?

Anybody know any wealthy relatives willing to donate :D

Sauchi

[DubChenBadanger]

You have experience with qigong?
Michael Tse is one of Ip Chun's students and he teaches several styles of classic qigong and Wing Chun too.
I have found that qigong is the perfect compliment to teaching WT.
This gives me more marketing ability. I can reach out to anyone who wants to be healthy of any age. It also compliments the self defence aspects of WT.
WT has its own system of Chi Kung and it is very good. Not all your customers will want to learn Wing Tsun though so it is best to offer other classes to attract them into your gym.

DB

[Armin]

Good morning!

This gives me more marketing ability. I can reach out to anyone who wants to be healthy of any age. It also compliments the self defence aspects of WT.
... not to mention frequen-chi/Wing Bo, WT-living, the health-siu nim tao, and so on. :D


Armin.