whats the difference between these ??

[Seb Spiers]

whats the difference between these ??

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun
Chi Sim Weng Chun
Traditional Wing Chun
Yip Man Ving Tsun
Wing Tsun
Wing Chun

[DubChenBadanger]

:boxing:
Thank you for your post.
Besides the spelling differences (which were, in some cases (WT) purposely implemented to differentiate cultivated schools of theory) it is dependant upon who was taught and by whom.
After Ip Man died Leung Ting (disciple of Ip Man in his later years and Wing Tsun founder) tried to search out other Ving Tsun (the correct traditional spelling according to Ip Man's gym) instructors as well as other authorities of martial arts systems. Through his research he found several theories from other reputable instructors (that were not taught by Ip Man) that he tested and approved for his system (WT). This is one reason he decided to spell it differently, because he felt he had a more refined system. Since Leung Ting also has a degree in the English language, he decided that his spelling also matched the pronunciation of the system at least as well as any of the other spellings if not better.
Another reason he decided to change the spelling of his school is because at the time he was promoting in Europe Ving Tsun was being called Wing Chun (which probably got its notoriety from Bruce Lee, Tao of JKD). Its initials (WC) stand for 'water closet' (toilet) in Europe and Leung Ting felt that was not what he wanted his art associated with (a chitter mon :D ).
To the untrained eye there are only minor differences in the theories of each school. To a technician however, the differences are like night and day.
DB

[M.K.]

Through his research he found several theories from other reputable instructors (that were not taught by Ip Man) that he tested and approved for his system (WT). This is one reason he decided to spell it differently, because he felt he had a more refined system.
How, where and on who he tested his
'refined' system?
And what are the refined, superior aspects
of the LT-style?
To the untrained eye there are only minor differences in the theories of each school. To a technician however, the differences are like night and day.
That's correct.
Greetings
Michael

[DubChenBadanger]

Dr Leung Ting has helped several well known Chinese Grandmasters to get their system(s) of martial art(s) translated to English books and DVDs, which is a huge sign of respect. It also tells me Leung Ting has looked around a bit.
As far as I know he is still refining his system. It has been tested through several hundred thousand students.
I've never been to a seminar and seen anyone get out of line who wasn't shown to the floor quickly (usually several times) by the Grandmaster.
I have used his system effectively and it has never failed me.
There is only one truth in self defence and that is...
...does it work when you need it?
DB

[M.K.]

Dr Leung Ting has helped several well known Chinese Grandmasters to get their system(s) of martial art(s) translated to English books and DVDs, which is a huge sign of respect.
Ok, that tells us, that LT is very good in the English language.
It has been tested through several hundred thousand students.
I don't know.
Skills should be tested under realistic conditions. Did LT do that?
And if he did-how could he come to such conclusions?
Maybe one or two 'good' guys (opponents) would be better than hundred thousand victims!
I've never been to a seminar and seen anyone get out of line who wasn't shown to the floor quickly (usually several times) by the Grandmaster.
How could anyone really try?
Nobody is allowed to touch him.
I have used his system effectively and it has never failed me.
OK, good, but then you are special.
The system is not so good for developing practicable fighting skills.
A lot of exercises lead to bad habits
and a lot of the concepts are not practicable under realistic conditions.
And this is a prooved fact.
Greetings
Michael

[DubChenBadanger]

English is a very necessary skill in relaying theory to a student. It is also one of the more desireable skills of any instructor. I know of several English speaking instructors who have difficulty expressing themselves verbally to their students. Their students suffer because of the teachers inability to transfer theory.
"How to make a Sun fist is as important as how to use a Sun fist".
You are quite unfortunate to not have been able to train with GM Leung Ting. In the United States he corrects every student at the instructor seminars and always has! The first time I saw him back in 1984 he was doing a televised demonstration that drew over a hundred spectators. Dr Leung Ting sent out an open challenge to anyone there.
My Daisihing was a Golden Gloves boxer / Praying Mantis instructor of 10 years when he first ran into Wing Tsun. A 5' 8" 210 lbs highly skilled pitbull.
Leung Ting beat him like an ugly step child without any effort what so ever.
Many other masters have touched hands with GM Leung Ting and most of them became his students too, thousands of us!
You must live in the country or someplace mellow. Most of the gyms I've belong to have their fair share of challenges coming in off the street.
If your technique don't work you get beat up right in front of your students and that's the bottom line.
There is no creative song and dance. You either fight or fight back! If I come to your gym to kick your *** because you got a big mouth I'm not going to leave without giving you at least a shot to the mouth for my trouble and to show your students what a punk you are!
Ya know what um sayin?
DB

[M.K.]

What I say?
If you beat me up or I beat you up,
who cares?
It only shows us, that we had some mistakes and must train harder.
Ving Tsun offers logical concepts to work out your prolems.
WT, in contradiction, teaches the students a lot of non functional concepts.
And that is the problem. I met a lot of them.
Or do all the WT-practioners and teachers
here in Europe fool their students?
Maybe I and all the WT-followers who visited me our other members of my teachers school, misunderstood the WT-concepts.
I don't know.
Greetings
Michael
PS:
Do you know Wong Shun Leung
and his concepts?

[DubChenBadanger]

I would have to discuss what concepts you are talking about to figure out if you somehow got the theory (concept) wrong from a WT stand point.
I know of Sifu Wong. He was Leung Ting's teacher for a time and a Hong Kong movie star. Another Ving Tsun legend. I have been to one of his gyms in B.C..
Each instructor has their value to add to the legacy but not any hybridized alteration.

The purity of the theory is so important Yip Man wrote it down for future generations to learn from.
Ng Mui may have been a Buddist nun but she was at a Taoist Temple when she gave birth to Wing Tsun.

It is too bad the dogma has gotten so muddy!
DB

[M.K.]

Hi,
Sifu Wong. He was Leung Ting's teacher for a time and a Hong Kong movie star.
That's not correct-neither Wong was the teacher of LeungTing nor was he a movie star (he only had little roles in a few films).
Another Ving Tsun legend
In fact Wong was 'the fighting legend' in Hong Kong. He was called 'Gong Sao Wong' (means 'the king of the talking hands/beimo=challengefighting).
He was the one who did most to made the style well known, famous and respected.
Ng Mui may have been a Buddist nun but she was at a Taoist Temple when she gave birth to Wing Tsun.
Are you sure about that? Do you heard about how and why this Ng Mui/Yim V/Wing Ts/Chun-story was invented?
Actually the roots of Ving Tsun can not be cleared. What we do know is, that there in fact existed characters like
Chan, Wah Chun, Leung Bik, Leung Jan,
Leung Yee Tai and Wong Wah Bo.
At the moment Yip Man and his Ving Tsun becoming well know to the HK martial arts community there was the need to give the people what the people want to have: a heroic story.
A what is a heroic story for the Chinese: Shaolin, monks, Fong Sai Yuk, Ng Mui, and persons like that.
Persons like Yip Man or his hard working students like Yip Bo Ching or Wong didn't need stories. For them it was only important, that they have a practical, functional fighting system.
But in fact there were persons, who
need such stories-simplicity and effectiveness ware not enough.
One of those guys who support and promote the style was a journalist calles Lee Man. In his opinion if a style wants to become famous, it needs a great history.And so,as Wong told, this guy bothered Yip Man so long to get 'the story', that finally Yip Man accepts everything.
You heard about his nickname 'uncle OK'?

The purity of the theory is so important Yip Man wrote it down for future generations to learn from.
Correct, the theory of the concepts is elemantary, but there are big differences between what the Yip Man-students taught/teaches, think and thought.
For example there are so many aspects and concepts in the Wong-style, that are total contradictional to Leung Tings WT.
For example (maybe you correct me if I am wrong):
-the conceptional meaning and way of doing Chi-Sao
(in LT-WT it is a sensitivity-training.
teaches the student to stick to the opponents arms-
in the Wong-style we rather think of striking or breaking up contact-no sticking, also helps us to develop different types of skills: structure (necessary for a good punch), distance, timing and s.o.)
-the footwork:
Beginning with the stance-turning:
In my understanding and my experiences shifting the whole body mass from one side to the other side, weakens the stability. And the control of balance is one of the most important aspects in fighting.
So why doing this?
Or the way of stepping?
Why one leg is in the front position
and whole body weight is on the rear leg?
Don't the fighter gives up a lot of his
chances by acting in this way?
Ok, that's enough for the moment.
Maybe you can help me to understand things better.
Maybe LT is doing a better job in your country. Here in Germany and the rest of Europe he brought up a lot of 'strange things'.
Greetings
Michael
PS:
You do not know a lot about Wong,
don't you? Do you heard about my teacher?
He also visited your country last year
for giving a seminar.
And Leung Ting also knows him very well.

[Armin]

Hi MK!

Glad you made it to this forum!

To your discussion with DB:

1st: The museum has collected some proofs and facts about the history of wing chun - yes, they are only hints, but they all show into the same direction.

2nd: Please remember, who acts as a 'filter' in Germany and who openly said, that he made some things up by himself, because he wasn't taught bei LT that far.

In fact, there is a difference between what LT teaches and what european people get taught. Take Sergio as an example. Leaving his person aside - he had lessons from LT and he definitely teaches something totally different than KRK.

We all know why.


Armin.

[M.K.]

Hi Armin,
In fact, there is a difference between what LT teaches and what european people get taught. Take Sergio as an example. Leaving his person aside - he had lessons from LT and he definitely teaches something totally different than KRK.
For example?

Greetings
Michael

[Armin]

Hi MK,

well, you know, I'm not into Leung Ting WT any more. I have to rely on people who have experience in both (even in Dragos-WT, but - please - don't tell anyone! ;) ).

It *seems* that LT is going deeper into concepts and less into technique. Maybe that's what KRK called his new 'WT-turbo' :D .

But as I said - that's not my experience. I just heard that.


Armin.

[M.K.]

Hi Armin,
but what are these concepts?
Are they different to the concepts that LT
explains in his books and videos for e.g.?
Greetings
Michael

[Armin]

Hi MK,

well, I can't tell you, if LT describes concepts in his books - I bought none of these (didn't want to spend money for that books ;) ).

Example - chum kiu. LT puts more weight on how one coordinates hands, body and feet - instead of going to deeply into the techniques. So, it's not about stepping and doing bong sao / wu sao, it's about stepping with body-unity.

But please, don't ask for more - as I told you, I'm not into that any more. I train REAL Ving Tsun now. Or: authentic. ;)

I guess that DB can give you more infos about that - but the problem is, that (luckily) he never 'experienced' EWTO-WT.


Armin.

[sauchi]

Hi DB,

My Daisihing was a Golden Gloves boxer / Praying Mantis instructor of 10 years when he first ran into Wing Tsun. A 5' 8" 210 lbs highly skilled pitbull.

Leung Ting beat him like an ugly step child without any effort what so ever.
Many other masters have touched hands with GM Leung Ting and most of them became his students too, thousands of us!

Thanks for sharing with us your story. To me that really presents how effective WC is if other instructors convert to it.

Sauchi

[M.K.]

Example - chum kiu. LT puts more weight on how one coordinates hands, body and feet - instead of going to deeply into the techniques. So, it's not about stepping and doing bong sao / wu sao, it's about stepping with body-unity.
OK, but that's not the point.
The differnce and that is a point we can
discuss about is how he is doing and teaches stepping.
Why does he put the whole body weight on the rear leg?
Or why do the WT-students learn this
stance turning movement in this way
(shifting the whole body weight from one side to the other)?
As you know in Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun we do not put the whole body weight on one leg only.
We also do not put one leg in font before we are in close combat distance (after we stepped in).
And the stance turning action also
should be done without a shifting of body weight.
Greetings
Michael

[DubChenBadanger]

MK we weight the rear leg for many reasons. A few are; ability to kick faster, less chance of a sweep on the front leg with only abduction force.
Our turn stance has much to it as well. We do our turnstance the way we do to compliment our other footwork and leaving one foot rooted empowers the stance (of course there is much more to it than this. I suggest you take a class or two of WT and see what I know). Spinning on both feet at the same time screws your balance and removes the root from your stance. Removing the root from your stance will weaken your ability to strike with maximum effect.
A 50-50 weight distribution in your stance will hinder your mobility and leave you with a tell (in other words you will broadcast your intensions to your opponent).
I know these theories to be true because I have demonstrated them many times over the last 20 years.
Seeing and feeling is believing take a class and find out for yourself.
DB

[Sean]

DubChen,

I have heard this argument in respect to weight placement many times from Wing Tsun people in the Leung Ting lineage. In my experience, however, a more even weight distribution offers not only more stability, but increased mobility as well. Is it better to be rooted in just one leg, or in both? Surely in both. With an approximate 50/50 side stance you can move forward or backward in any direction. And you can kick with either leg. Also, in the forwad stance, moving backward and on diagonals is much easier without the weight totally placed on the back leg.

I respect your experience, and if you can make a stance with 100% weight on the back leg work for you, that's great. But I can't help but think that in most cases for most people this type of posture will lead to more problems than it solves.

I know MK's Ving Tsun, and one thing is for sure, the guy has tested his skills against many fighters. Some have come from WT, some from other styles such as MMA or even Tanglang quan. In fact, people have come from all over Europe to cross hands with him. Through years of hard training (that's all the guy does all day!) he has developed an incredibly rooted stance and whole-body movement ability. Now, I'm not trying to kiss MK' *** here. That is just the way it is. In fact, the whole lineage, WSL=Philip Bayer=MK has from the word go been all about fighting and testing ones skills. Finding out what really works and what doesn't. You can be sure that when MK makes a point it is coming from real experience.

SW

[DubChenBadanger]

Sean:
You speak as though you are an X student of Leung Ting. Is this true? Otherwise how would you know about our stance. There is only one way to know and that is to learn it.
I have been in several styles that use a 50 - 50 weight distribution. In comparison to WT they are very limited in mobilty. A weighted front leg is vunerable to a sweep meaning you are going into battle with your defences down. Your teacher must not like you much. Our stance not only works for me but for hundreds of thousands of other WT students. Are we all stupid?
MK may have touched hands with a few WT students but they were of low level or he would be our student. Like I have said before, only a fool would not move on to something better.
Finally Sean, if the thought of hard work in order to develop a superior stance is not acceptable to you, stop waisting your money because you will never get anywhere as a martial artist.
You have been conned! Get out before you get hurt or before they take you to the cleaners.
DB

[M.K.]

MK may have touched hands with a few WT students but they were of low level or he would be our student. Like I have said before, only a fool would not move on to something better.
You are a really funny man.
I respect your point of view and your personal experiences, but however
WT, LT is not as superior as you WT-people try to make us believe.
And even if there are some very good fighters in your school, there are some obvious errors in the WT-concepts
(and you can be sure of that I, my teacher or some of my fellow students
do not only try against some low level
WT-practioners)
No style is absolutly superior,
each style has got some good aspects,
which should help the student to develope his fighting skills.
What is in common for all practical styles is that they always take a look at the reality, means that they think of what clever fighters would do/how they would act, and what is possible in
reality. A lot of things for e.g. are strongly influenced/limited by the laws of physics.
Shifting the whole body-weight for e.g.
automatically weakens stability and it also never could be as fast as a change of direction if the center of gravity is/stays in the middle (simple physics).
If you put one foot in front, whole body weight on the rear leg, is neither
stabil nor flexible.
Why nature has give us two legs, a lot of animals even four or more legs?!?
As Sean wrote if none leg is in front (until we move in) we keep the possibility to move in all directions without hesitation, also can use both
legs to kick without to have shifting the
weight before.
And the sweeps you mentioned:
We also do not stand still and wait for the opponent to attack.
And there is another factor that influences such situations:
The position, the direction of moving of the hip.
There are a lot of strange things, that are taught in WT. Take a look at the
video 'Authentic WT' by LT (I also saw some clips from the USA, where a practioner demonstrates some aspects of the video in the same way) -the same you can find in LTs 'bible') there I found for e.g. some really
unrealist explainations
My favourite is the fourth sentence,
where both hands are in front and none is left to protect. Train actions that will never happens.
On the other hand, if we take a look at the Poon-Sao the positive aspects of this exercise, developing structure for e.g. does not take place.
Instead of it people doing this 'sticking thing' and in my understanding that is a big no no, because stick to the other guys hands/arms means to follow him-he decides what's going on and I think an opponent will never help to defeat himself.
You wrote if I/we touched hand with good WTs, we move over to LT.
Why only LT wants Sifus like Wong Shun Leung to sign a paper wherein everybody agrees that a student of one *ing*un-system is not allowed to change to an other school, becoming student of an other *ing*un-style?. Wong did not accept to sign, knowing that his studends never ever convert to WT. Rember what for WSL and the style he tought is famous for. Even LT does know this!
There are a lot of stories about LT, in HK, as here in Europe. He is indeed very famous, but not as a fighter,
only as a clever business man.
And these are facts that can be proved.
LT does his way and for a lot of persons this is the right way, a good way and that's ok.
But LT and his system is not as superior as LT and his whole organisation tries to make the people believe.
In this world there are a lot of good fighters, a lot of good systems
and none is the ultimate thing.
We all got to work very hard to
increase our chances.
And a good system offers ways to do so.
But there are no guarantees. Never.
That's all.
OK, wishing you all all the best for the New Year (today is New Year in Asia!-the most imprtant day there!)
that we all could live in peace and tolerance.
Greetings
Michael

[Sean]

Blind loyalty and ignorant bliss?

This this little tidbit meant for me personally?

No, I am not an ex-LT student. How do I know about his system? Well, I train taijiquan together with an EWTO Sifu of Leung Ting. He has personally explained and shown me the intricacies of the system. And I remain unconvinced. Is a Sifu in the LT organization too low a level, perhaps?

Now, I've been in martial arts for almost thirty years, and I have had the luck to meet and train with some top people in various disciplines, like Liang Chao Qun for Liuhe Men/Ziran Men, Yang Zhen He for Yang style taijiquan, Wan Kam Leung for VT, .....and the list goes on. So it is not out of blind loyalty and ignorant bliss that I would include Philip Bayer and MK on my list of top martial artists and teachers.

As for knowing the meaning of hard work, well my whole life has been dedicated to martial arts and to the development of skills through hard work. I've been a professional athlete and a martial arts instructor for years, and like all of us on this board, am always trying to improve my skills. It's the hard work that I love, dude!

I can see that it is pretty much useless to continue this debate. You will remain convinced of your thing, and I of mine. And that's cool. I wish you a lot of luck and hope that you, too, will continue to improve your gong fu. Too bad that we live so far away from each other, it would be great to meet and exchange ideas.

cheers!

SW

[DubChenBadanger]

I agree with MK and Sean about one thing and that is we agree to disagree. I would like to point out that they are promoting themselves and their art on a WT list.
I would like to remind everyone that this is not a place to take cheap shots at my Sifu or my system or act like you are some kind of WT expert because you have trained one of our x-students who is of a low level. Check your ego at the door cause I ain't buying your sales pitch and hopefully no one else is either. All of our seminars and classes are open to the public, take a class unless you are afraid that I might be right. You will also notice the would be WT students these wanna-bes keep mentioning are not mentioned by name. Could that be because nobody would know who they are or could it be that this is all a fabrication.
There has been much talk about our schools getting together and exchanging ideas in a friendly environment. I have seen little attacks by my system on the other schools that didn't start the fight first (William Cheung threw out a challenge and got his butt kicked on video tape so there would be no doubt).
I am ready to hold intelligent conversation with anyone and to try and learn. On the other hand if you want to talk smack about my system or my Sifu be prepared for a fight. It is easy to cheap shot using this medium. If you think you are tough walk into any of our gyms and watch the line form to kick your ***!:rol:
DB

[M.K.]

Hi DB,
being friendly, respectful and open minded
is always good and I understand that you do not want to hear anything bad about your Sifu.
But on the other hand, respecting your experiences, you maybe also should think about respecting other people opinions,
they have their experiences too, for sure.
Well ok, no problem, each person has got
its own point of view.
I am sure that you never ever had any contact to the WongShunLeung-lineage of
Ving Tsun, otherwise you wouldn't talk and think in that way.

MK
PS:
Although I do not agree with W.Cheung and his behavior, this fight was ridiculous
and it was only a shame for both of them.
Even Emin knows that if I can believe the words of some of his students.

[DubChenBadanger]

I appreciate your respect for your teacher. I have seen "The Science of Infighting" and have even been to Vancouver BC to train at one of his gyms (unfortunately the one next to Sun Yat Sen's Garden was closed).
I admit that I probably know as much about VT as you know about WT (although I do know quite a bit having close association with Ip Ching's student Ron Hiemberger and Ip Chun's student Michael Tse) I also have several (20+) videos from other schools. I live in an isolated area and have little access to any systems but I still like to go and visit and train when I can afford it. I have no problems with any of these gyms and they know where my loyalties lie. There may be hard feelings between our Sifus or my Sihings but that does not mean I can't be friends or train with them. I do what I want and so should everyone else.
As I have said before (not to anyone inparticular) only a fool would show blind loyalty to their teacher and any teacher worth their salt does not mind if their student looks around a bit. If they teach something worthwhile their student will always come back humbled but educated.
Thank you for you excellent exchange and I agree that Emin beating up Willy was not a good thing but it had to be done. The politics behind the scenes have probably never been discussed openly and may be better left so.
Friendly exchanges are starting to happen more often (see the new Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine pg 48). This is one of the reasons I was asked to host this forum by Master Benny Meng.
Maybe someday soon I will be over to train with you or you will come to train with me. If your system is better I would join in a minute. Would you do the same?
DB:grin drop

[M.K.]

Hi DB,
you are welcome. There is always time and place for friendly exchanges of thoughts and techniques and my wife
makes an excellant coffee.
Wong Shun Leung was indeed not my Sifu, but my Sigung (although I have trained under him a bit-as you can see on my HP).
My Sifu is Philipp Bayer (your Sifu knows him very well) and I study under his guidance for now over 16 years.
(sorry, forget to say-the Ving Tsun of Yip Ching and Yip Chun is different to that of my teachers)
It is good that we are both on the same opinion about the W.Cheung-event.
Things like that shouldn't happen. In both ways-not such a big mouth (WC should remember that there is no absolutly superiorty) and not such a reaction (one fool is followed by 2 new fools (or even more))
Absolutly unnecessary, only making a 'bad thing' out of *ing*un.
Finally let me say something to your
question about 'changing the style':
This style I practise every day of the week for hours. The concepts are very logical and realistic, allowing me to analyze my weaknesses and show me
how to do it better.
If I lose a fight, a comparision or sth. like that, the mistake is not in the system/concept, it is in me, because I
didn't work hard enough or didn't take care enough of something particualar.
So I have to work harder, take care of the correct quality of my training.
The concepts of WSL/PhB-VT are very convincing. A lot of people know about that.
OK,
regards
Michael

[DubChenBadanger]

You talking to me?:rol:

[M.K.]

Who knows.
:cool:

[joksanen]

An old thread but I promised to contribute more. I made a little collection.

Armin: Please remember, who acts as a 'filter' in Germany
In addition what has been the influence of this certain filter we also have to remember where does one's image of WT come from. It comes very easily from those early years 80's when the organisation was growing up with hard words and very aggressive marketing. Some people never learnt any better and unfortunately those are usually the ones making the biggest noise. Just like me now, I'm afraid.

Most of the western world WT has come throuh this filter. I don't know the current status of the States but I'm positive they're not completely un-filtered either. I believe LT has told that some European-invented training drills should not be done while he's present. These added-up drills are one of the reason why our "style to be learned in short time" would take over 30 years to learn.

There are many WT-teachers looking beyond the pointing finger (pun intended) and WT should not be judged through that filter anymore.

MK: way of doing Chi-Sao (in LT-WT it is a sensitivity-training.
teaches the student to stick to the opponents arms
I refer to my text above. This perception of the chi-sau seems to be the image built in the 80's. I've been taught that chi-sau teaches correct positions (structure) and is only a tool prolonging the initial millisecond of a contact. With prolonging we can learn where the energy is going and use it. Only beginners chase the hands.

If one looks for similarities of WT regarding a "WC" school, I think one finds most of them from WSL. Which makes me very happy. Damn, I'm happy I wasn't there in the 80's.

MK: in Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun we do not put the whole body weight on one leg only. We also do not put one leg in font before we are in close combat distance (after we stepped in).
To have one leg completely empty (weightless) while standing is a simplification for beginners and it helps to understand some other elements of the concept. To have one leg containing the weight while turning has more in it than just weight. It has elements of softness and not knowing where to turn before it really has to be done. The Concept teaches not to put the other leg on front before the close combat range has been bridged.

MK: LT is not as superior as you WT-people try to make us believe.
Personally I consider videoclips of him explaining something in Langenzall very amusing and his English is not so good either. (I will say nothing of those studnts.) I don't think that's the kind of superiority you're looking for.

Hopefully I didn't wake a beast.