Five Ancestor Fist

[yentao]

Let's talk about Five Ancestor Fist. How much you know it?

[Cang Long]

yentao,
Sounds good is there something in particular you would like to share.

[yentao]

I would say I'm a man who knows something about Wu Zu Quan.

We call it Ngo Cho Kun in Fukien dialect. So when we talk about it i'll refer to it as Ngo Cho Kun.

Ngo Cho Kun is founded by Chua Giok Beng in the late Ching dynasty. The art were consist of five styles, There are Tat chun, Lo Han, Tai Cho, Pe Ho (fukien white crane), and Tai Sheng (Monkey).

Ngo Cho Kun is half soft and half hard system of Kung Fu.

The techniques is more on using hand techniques than leg techniques and fights closely.

I follow Chua Giok Beng's lineage. There are two: Chee Kim Thong lineage and Chua Giok Beng lineage.

[Cang Long]

We call it Ngo Cho Kun in Fukien dialect. So when we talk about it i'll refer to it as Ngo Cho Kun. My first question is what does Ngo Cho Kun transalate to in english if it does at all?

[yentao]

Five Ancestor Fist. I just want to call it Ngo Cho Kun since its a fukienese art.

[Cang Long]

So how is it that Chua Giok Beng was able to learn all 5 fist?

[yentao]

Yes. Since his Master Ho Yang died, he returned the remains of his master in Honan province. There, he spend ten years in studying shaolin kung fu and chinese medicine. Then instead of returning home, he traveled throughout China to learn Kung Fu. The result, he learned 5 styles and able to combined it.

You can buy a book in Amazon.com its a good book. I want Ngo Cho Kun to be recognized so I put a discussion about it.

[Cang Long]

Ok so how much do you know of Chee Kim Thong? How much do the 2 lineages differ?

[yentao]

I know Master Chee as a master of Ngo Chor Kun in Malaysia. He claims that Ngo Cho Kun came from Bak Feng in the 12 century. However we the Chua Giok Beng lineage believes that Chua Giok Beng created the style. Master Chee has the only version of histroy among other Masters throughout South East Asia. The rest believe that Chua Giok Beng created the style. You can see this site to see how many masters are in the South East Asia that believes that Ngo Cho Kun come from Chua Giok Beng many older than Chee Kim Thong and they are all Fukienese. http://www.hokkian-siauwlim.com/anc.html

Many Ngo Cho Kun Masters fled China and can be found throughout South East Asia. In Malaysia Master Chee Kim Thong has the only different history among all masters found in the Philippines, Burma, Vietnam, Thailand, Singapore, and Indonesia. I would like to include Japan and Taiwan. These are based on my research.

[Cang Long]

Thanks for the web site there is lots to read there so I am still doing that but in the mean time can you tell me something about the forms you may be practicing or how Ngo Cho Kun is best taught/learned. How long have you practiced and what is the greatest value of combining the hard and the soft power of Ngo Cho Kun? Thanks

[yentao]

I've been training for 6 yrs. Since I was taught Sam Chien form. Sam Chien, Basic Chien and foundation of the art of Ngo Cho Kun. Li Sip Kun (twenty punches), basic Kun form. There 44 forms of Ngo Cho Kun (originally) I've only get to learn 6 forms so far. Actually depends when I will be allowed to advance.

Value of Soft and Hard. The value of the style is that you get to train both internal and external power at the same time. Ngo Cho Kun was created for the benefit of the practitioner to train both styles.

[Cang Long]

What is the primary purpose of the six forms you have learned thus far and what are their Shaolin characteristics?

[yentao]

Ok. Ngo Cho Kun compose of two categories in forms.

The Chien and Kun

The six forms contains the techniques that you'll see on the Five Styles that consist it. Techniques like the Sang Cha
(double thrust) which came from Tai Cho. Stances from lohan the bow and arrow stance and empty stance from (Monkey Boxing) Kao Kun. The hand techniques of White Crane are also observe there. It also adapted some of Tat Chun techniques like the Swe Chie Kieng Marrow Washing Exercises. Lohan and Tat Chun techniques are one of the Shaolin styles.

[Cang Long]

What are the major differences between the chien and the kun?

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I love to here about other styles such as this one. I have a friend that has trained something like this style. He referred to it as the Five Ancestors. It's main focus was training heavy hands. Being a close range art there was little need for long range or low stances, they still had them but he said that he found little need for them.
He described a drill for legs, mainly to train the balance. You stand with a partner on a five pole pattern trying to destroy your partners balance. Does any of this happen at your training center? I wounder if they are two in the same. The only thing is he's from England not Asia. Do you know if your style is also in england?

[yentao]

Chien are forms like kata that concentrates in strengthening the Ngo Ki. In short, forms for iron body excercises.

Kun are forms that concentrates in Ngo Cho Kun fighting techniques.

[yentao]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
I love to here about other styles such as this one. I have a friend that has trained something like this style. He referred to it as the Five Ancestors. It's main focus was training heavy hands. Being a close range art there was little need for long range or low stances, they still had them but he said that he found little need for them.
He described a drill for legs, mainly to train the balance. You stand with a partner on a five pole pattern trying to destroy your partners balance. Does any of this happen at your training center? I wounder if they are two in the same. The only thing is he's from England not Asia. Do you know if your style is also in england?

May I know who is his master? I know Mr. Lo Siauw Gok, Sifu Han and Sigung Chee Kim Thong are the Ngo Cho Kun masters who taught in Europe. There is another one in Spain but I forgot his name.

Yes we have a drill for legs its part in every Ngo Cho Kun forms. Yes we off balance our opponents so he cannot throw powerful strikes. In Ngo Cho Kun proper balance and stance helps on giving more power in strikes. Southern concepts.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I am not really sure, but I sent him an email to find out and also asked him to join us in this descution if he had the time. This could get really good. What brought you to this forum if you don't mind me asking?

[yentao]

Well since Ngo Cho Kun is a southern style, I want it to be recognized by other southern Chinese martial artists.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Is your style located in the US? I know you said it was in Europe, Asia, and Spain right. How much knowledge do you have about the Southern Shaolin Temple? I do recognize the style you speak of. Although I have not train it, I still see that there are bits and peaces of southern weng chun in it. But I don't truly understand your purpose. It sounds to me as if your style is already wide spread. Is there another reason or are you just getting your name on the board so to speak? Either way its good to see someone with proper manors. Welcome!

[yentao]

Yes there is someone teaching in the U.S. he is Master Bonifacio Lim. He is located in New Jersey don't know exactly though. About southern Wing Chun? I'm not quite sure I never practice the art. I think there is only south wing chun, no north at all. So that makes "Wing Chun". No, I am not trying to get a name in the board sorry.

[Cang Long]

Yentao,
So what aspects of the five fist are related to southern shaolin and how do they relate?

[yentao]

Mostly stances. The low stances. Some ground techniques. Some punches and hand techniques from Pe Ho (Fukien White Crane). Kao Kun (monkey)

[Cang Long]

And are there lots of Qi Gong excersizes involved in the study of the 5 fist?

[yentao]

Yes there is. But some lineage train without.

[Cang Long]

So you have Qi Gong training in your lineage why do some of the other lineages go without, if you know.

[yentao]

Some feel they should with the external way. Others with internal power. Both has benefits. But it is better to train both ways. I mean it should be train with balance.

[Cang Long]

Yes, I agree with you Yentao the balnce of trainging both the internal and external is important to our hung fa yi training as well. I believe it is essential to a shaolin art that these two aspects of training be kept in tact. What is the first thing one is taught when they take up the five fist training?

[yentao]

They where taught the Sam Chien form. For us power is important in fighting both interanl and external. So we train Sam Chien first to attain this.

[Cang Long]

power is important yes I agree in Hung Fa Yi one of the first things taught is root and proper structure required to genrate as well as absorb power. Can you tell me more about Sam Chien Form?

[yentao]

Sam Chien is a form focuses in so called iron body training. A lot of its forms where adapted from Tat Chun and Lo han exercises.

It strengthen the limbs through stances and tensioning techiques.

Some use chio so and iron palm training.

[Cang Long]

yentao,
How many people do you train with are you a private student that just trains with you and your sifu or do you attend class with many others. The iron shirt training requires the help of others doesn't it.

[yentao]

Sometimes I train alone, sometimes I train with someone. No we don't use Iron Shirt but I think other lineages do. I use dumbells and sand bags as subtitute to chio so. Around 14 lbs. each hand.

I toss and twiss it in the air. The purpose of these training is to be able to test how strong you can block or catch punches.

To be able to do this you should have a strong stance. Example ma pu stance.

It can be train with two people the other one should catch while the other one will toss. We want it to be safe so the beginners must train first with sandbags and then the dumbells.

Chio-so weights or chinese stone padlocks are hard to find in our country and no one build things like that anymore so we use other things as subtitute.

[yentao]

We use to have hundreds of practitioners around Asia some even made it to Europe and U.S.

There are schools in China, Malaysia, Singapore, Taiwan Indonesia, Japan, and the Philippines.


I don't train with these guys but I quite knew some of them.

[Cang Long]

yentao,
I am curious where you live and train at. I also want to thank you for answering my questions and sharing your system with us on our forum.

[yentao]

I live in the Philippines I train privately because the school was closed long time ago. There are other schools opening but not from the same lineage I trained. I chose to train privately with someone who only teach few people and with the same lineage. Anyway thank you for listening. Pls. give me a background of Hung Fa Yi.

[Cang Long]

Here is a link to our school here in Arizona where I train, so that you may learn more about what we do.
http://www.mengsofaz.com/

[Cang Long]

Suki,
I am curious if you have anything to add to this discussion and I am interested in hearing your thoughts on how the different forms of chi sau that you have studied vary and why you think that is? Seeing that you have experienced 5 fist, Ip Man, and now Hung Fa Yi I think you are in a very unique and enviable position to share with others just how different or similar you found your experience of these 3 different Chi sau to be. Thanks in advance.

[Suki]

Tony,

It has been very interesting reading your discussions, and nice to see a HFY forum openly talking about other systems besides their own. Even i learnt something about 5 Ancestors that i did not know before, and i joined this forum to learn more about HFY !

With regards to HFY Chi Sau, i only got a very very brief taste of this on my first trip to AZ, but it answered a decades worth of major questions i have always had on the theory and structures of the Yip Man Chi Sau system. With no dis-respect intended to the Yip Man Chi Sau system, in my experience the reason i couldn't go back to it was because of several major points in the system which i could not address. (Maybe at the time through lack of knowledge, anyhow i know now !)

With regards to Structure and Energies i was struggling to hold any ground with even less expereinced 5-A practitioners, which is why i left Wing Chun at that time, but only in body, my soul has always been Wing Chun, which was why i had such a hard (and fun) time in the 5-A classes as i was the 'Wing Chun' outsider everyone in the class wanted to challenge. So i had to learn fast !

In comparing my experiences i had many major questions like;

Why is there any need for rolling of the arms? and why roll at all ? especially as the action exposes 'holes' which can be attacked.
5-A's dont roll hands in the same way, they only roll their hands at the wrists, and only when they are forced out of their structure lines (these being the shoulder lines) and they only roll inside to out and vice versa to regain that position. The rolling is done at the wrist using wrist energy with the elbows and shoulders providing the supporting structure for the wrists.

Why use the Bong Sau when it can be attacked so easily ? and why use a passive Bong , a single arm position which cant easily in one motion be changed back into offence. In the 5-A the Bong is used with focused elbow energy simultaneously providing defence and offence but only when the opponents hands has gone past the mid point of the forearm (as wrist at this range cannot now effectively engage) and only if there is sinking energy on the arm.

Normally if an arm is extended in Kiu Sau and is confronted with forward and heavy energy at the wrist area, the elbows are dropped immediately and pulled back as quick as possible using Gin Lik (explosive energy) to engage our wrist's to the opponents attacking arm and the wrist twist's the attacking hand away using wrist energy supported by elbow and shoulder structure. If there is no heavy energy downwards then the palms just twist out (like in Tan) pulling slightly back to upset balance and back in again palm facing at the same time with sprung striking energy (gained from the twist and pull back) and before the strike, elbows are adjusted inwards to steal angle (Snake hands).

Why use the wrists as point of contact when the hands are much more sensitive ? 5-A's prefer to engage with both hands on top with elbows in, if they are inside they force the hand to shoulder line using wrist energy while keeping the elbows in, but in general they dont like to be on the inside as much as they need to 'listen' using the wrist then rather than the more receptive palms.

In fact there are several other major questions which have been satisfactory addressed but i can see this post over running ( if any body is still with me ? ), so maybe i will cover them another time.

In short 5-A's Chi Sau is very much an energy based system, which share many similarities to HFY. The intent is to find holes in the opponents structure using energy flow, and if structure is sound, then a combination of explosive soft and hard energies are delivered to upset balance, and to break structure to create a holes to control or destroy.

Certainly now i can feel the link between my Shaolin Chi Sau and HFY's Chi Sau which i could never feel with the Yip Man's version.
But it also has to be said our definition of Chi Sau is not the same as the HFY's which is more precise and defined in range.

From my short and limited exposure to HFY, so many questions have has been answered, including the one's above (and i never even addressed these questions to Sifu, they were all answered from just a few days of training Basic HFY, but maybe Sifu gave more than i realised !) By answering many of my questions, HFY's has restored my passion to pick up my Wing Chun which i left 15 years ago.

And finally i think there is a difference in the Chi Sau with the
5-A's and HFY because HFY Chi Sau was developed specifically with the hands holding battle weapons in mind. So Chi Sau can be engaged with full weapons in both hands, so contact is made with the wrists. Whereas 5-A's was designed more for hold, control and subdue. Which is why we grab and hold so much in our Chi Sau.

Thanks for staying with me, those who are still awake !

Suki
London

[Hungman]

Suki,

I can second to that. In times like these, it helps to recall that there have always been times like these.



HM





From my short and limited exposure to HFY, so many questions have has been answered, including the one's above (and i never even addressed these questions to Sifu, they were all answered from just a few days of training Basic HFY, but maybe Sifu gave more than i realised !) By answering many of my questions, HFY's has restored my passion to pick up my Wing Chun which i left 15 years ago.


Suki

[yentao]

Hi

I did not learn Wing Chun. In our country there are only few cantonese and Wing Chun was not popular. Although I heard Leung Ting went to our country to promote the art before he has a hard time because our country don't have enough cantonese to support him.

I wouldn't know how WuZuQuan is taught in Europe. Our founder Chua Giok Beng was not the same as the founder of Chee's lineage.

We mostly use diagonal fist in training. We have arm smashing exercise maybe like chi sau called Kang Ngo Ki. Where in we will hit each others arm after training the Sam Chien and conditioning the arms. It helps strengthing the blocks and punches. We have four principles in movements through the form: Swallow, Spit out, floating,and sinking that govern all the Ngo Cho Kun techniques.

I don't think there is a lot similarities with Wing Chun. We focus in hardening and strengthening the arms. We are mostly the same with fukien white crane and tai cho.

[Suki]

Hi Yentao,

I was in a Leung Ting School for almost 2 years, but due to so much politics, the sifu changed 3 times in that time !

I think if you have enough knowledge of your own system, then maybe its an idea if its permitted by your Sifu, to travel to other Goons to broaden your knowledge. As you can only truly appreciate the value of a gem if you have many yourself.

For me i would not have found so many Kung Fu treasures, if i had not made that initial trip. And the HFY's family is one of the most closest and welcoming Kung Fu families i have come across. And they are not out there to ridicule other styles or systems, but provide Kung Fu knowledge openly to those who seek it.

I think if you witness more Wing Chun you will see more similarities. 5-A's is an immense system in every sense, but once you have managed to condense it more, you will see that the four main principles that you have mentioned are also to be found in Wing Chun, well in HFY in anycase. But in my experience HFY has refined these principles around true body structures, so they are maybe a little more subtle than the way we practice it, but they are there.

And out of respect i would like to say that the late GM Chee Kim Thong is a much respected Master, and is remembered as one of the true legendary Chinese fighters and Kung Fu teachers of this century.

Suki
London

[passing_through]

Yentao,

We mostly use diagonal fist in training. We have arm smashing exercise maybe like chi sau called Kang Ngo Ki

In my experience, the exercise you are describing is one layer of Kiu Sau training rather than Chi Sau. Kiu Sau is called Kiu Sau is because is tends to revolve around the development of the forearms (called bridge: Kiu) - from elbow to wrist. Generally Chi Sau refers to a slightly different focus in training – both partners are squared up and the emphasis is on training the hands rather than the forearms.

In general there are three layers of Kiu Sau training in the world of Southern Kung Fu styles.

The most fundamental level involves conditioning the arms - building up the bridges and strengthen the wei qi (guardian qi), muscles, skin and bones of the arms. You can't fight if you have soft, weak arms. This form of training is also sometimes called "Three Star Striking" – Da Saam Sing or Five Star Striking (Da Ngh Sing) or Seven Star Striking (Da Chut Sing) or Nine Star Striking (Da Gau Sing).

The second level involves training angles of attack/interaction - you learn which angles are stronger for offense/defense. Having a strong tool is good but you have to know where/when to apply it. This can also be called “X Star Striking”

The third level involves training reaction - with a strong bridge and proper angle you learn to flow (like water) with your techniques rather than move like a machine. This is more generally referred to as Kiu Sau and not so much called “X Star Striking.”

In the training of your system, do you use all three of these layers to develop your bridging ability? I'm trying to get an idea of your training methods - not being able to see it makes it difficult to imagine. Also, I'm curious about the characters used for "Kang Ngo Ki" - could you translate the phrase and I'll see if I can put together the characters? I have an idea of what they might be but I want to be certain.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[Cang Long]

Welcome to the discussion Suki this really is getting good that was some great detail you presented about chi sau I for one can't wait to hear the rest of your experiences. Reviewing some of the older discussion before I was reading the I-Ching I found this discussion to be very enjoyable now I find it to be down right amazing.

Ngo Cho Kun compose of two categories in forms.

The Chien and Kun



I also find it interesting that Chien is the first thing being taught in 5-A' fist and that Chein is the first character of the I-Ching and that it represents creative power, Father heaven and Kun is second character of I ching and it represents Earth Mother and signifies "reaching out like lightning" very interesting.

I-Ching Hexagram chart (http://users.lmi.net/~tlc/iching/)

Maybe terminology is not so unimportant after all when tracing the roots of martial arts.

[Suki]

Yentao,

I agree with what SiSok Jeremy says, he clearly understands a lot more than i do in Kiu Sau, just all the different terminology HFY uses always blows my mind.

I am also curious what dialect of Chinese are you expressing when you quote ? Mandarin, Cantonese , Fukien, Hokien ?

just picking up one of your previous points about the whether there were similarities between our systems, you are absolutely right when you say you cant see the similarities, nor could i when i was training in the other Wing Chun systems.

But my biggest surprise to me on my first visit was seeing techniques that resemble our fukien white crane. You say we focus on arms conditioning, and how i used to hate those sessions (so i used to be a woosh and sneak out when it got to the shins knocking part !) so imagine my surprise when i was shown some of their Kiu Sau drills, i was expecting the normal soft touch of hands with linear energy, how i wished i had continued the arms conditioning in my early years.

HFY from what i have seen so far doesn't concentrate as much training time in conditioning as as in 5-A's and i havent witnessed any sam sin , Ng sin training which is basic training for us, but then their approach on arm to arm contact doesn't take on as much 'full on' frontal arm force as we would do in our Lohan or Tai Jou training . I used to see some of the sihings in our club practicing the sam sin on the corners of the brick walls.


Suki
London

[yentao]

Originally posted by passing_through
Yentao,

In the training of your system, do you use all three of these layers to develop your bridging ability? I'm trying to get an idea of your training methods - not being able to see it makes it difficult to imagine. Also, I'm curious about the characters used for "Kang Ngo Ki" - could you translate the phrase and I'll see if I can put together the characters? I have an idea of what they might be but I want to be certain.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

I'm using Fukien language. Like I said in my early posts Ngo Cho Kun is a Fukienese art and I trained under fukien language. "Kang Ngo Ki" means hitting the five parts. All Ngo Cho Kun practitioners focus in strengthening the "Ngo Ki" the five parts. The forms of chiens which categorized as strengthening forms are mostly based in Indian Monk Tamo's techniques from Tat Chun: Yak Kun Kien, The Marrow Changing Classics and Swe Che Kieng, Marrow Washing Exercises.

Chien is a kata like forms that acts as a subtitute for weights.

[yentao]

Originally posted by passing_through
Yentao,

We mostly use diagonal fist in training. We have arm smashing exercise maybe like chi sau called Kang Ngo Ki

In my experience, the exercise you are describing is one layer of Kiu Sau training rather than Chi Sau. Kiu Sau is called Kiu Sau is because is tends to revolve around the development of the forearms (called bridge: Kiu) - from elbow to wrist. Generally Chi Sau refers to a slightly different focus in training – both partners are squared up and the emphasis is on training the hands rather than the forearms.

In general there are three layers of Kiu Sau training in the world of Southern Kung Fu styles.

The most fundamental level involves conditioning the arms - building up the bridges and strengthen the wei qi (guardian qi), muscles, skin and bones of the arms. You can't fight if you have soft, weak arms. This form of training is also sometimes called "Three Star Striking" – Da Saam Sing or Five Star Striking (Da Ngh Sing) or Seven Star Striking (Da Chut Sing) or Nine Star Striking (Da Gau Sing).

The second level involves training angles of attack/interaction - you learn which angles are stronger for offense/defense. Having a strong tool is good but you have to know where/when to apply it. This can also be called “X Star Striking”

The third level involves training reaction - with a strong bridge and proper angle you learn to flow (like water) with your techniques rather than move like a machine. This is more generally referred to as Kiu Sau and not so much called “X Star Striking.”

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

We too believe that you should have a strong arms in fighting. I don't understand a lot of what you said but the priority of the strengthening the arms is very clear. I think this is what we have in common.