Dai Dung Fong

[mario bava]

Hello There

It is wonderful reading the experiences of those who have been instructed in the Advanced SNT by GM Gee. The whole discussion has raised a very good topic.

Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai are well known figures in Wing Chun circles - in their day, they were known actors as well as martial artists and were very much public figures. However, there are two other men from the martial arts community of those times who did not have a public role to play. These men were Rebellion Society members engaged in dangerous underground activity against a vicious and cruel foreign invader, and are known as Hung Gun Biu and Dai Dung Fung.
The art that is attributed to Dai Dung Fung does not seem to be taught to the public at any large scale. Another thread on this forum has mentioned that Pa Fien Lien lineage comes from Dai Dung Fong, via the Grandmaster Chu Chung. The thread mentions that "the knowledge of Dai Dong Fung passed to the brothers Der Gwok-Leung & Der Gwok-Cheung and then they taught Pao Fa Lien and the system proceeded from there" - however, it seems that very little of this system is available to the public and therefore seems to be passed on in private from person to person. There is even the suggestion of the possibilty that Dai Dung Fongs' original knowledge could be lost. Therefore, at this stage, the Rebellion Society fighter Dai Dung Fong and his role in China's history remains almost unknown in the Wing Chun community. But the question is:

What has this got to do with the Advanced SNT?

Hung Gun Biu preserved the highly advanced knowledge of the Wing Chun system for future generations during those troubled times, and now GM Gee is ensuring that his efforts never become a waste by revealing the system to the public. This is the link to the possible story of Dai Dung Fongs' lost art, and why it is a wonderful and important effort that GM Gee is making on behalf of his ancestor Hung Gun Biu. The fact that GM Gee is revealing this information is of course great for those who are fortunate to receive it, but now knowing the history of both Hung Gun Biu and Dai Dung Fong, it should be clear that when a student receives the high level technology of Hung Gun Biu and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, this knowledge also comes with a great responsibilty - that it is never lost, changed or misused, because that would be no service to one of the men who kept the system alive - Hung Gun Biu.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Lineage


This style is said to have its roots in the Shaolin Monastery and was taught by a Buddhist monk whose nickname was Big East Wind. On leaving the Shaolin Monastery Dai Dung Fung travelled south to Ching Yuen village. The Buddhist monk was a member of a secret society whose aims were to overthrow the Ching Government.

Dai Dung Fung aka Big East Wind (founder) > Der Gwok-Leung & Der Gwok-Cheung (two brothers) > Liu Tat-Sung (aka Pao Fa-Lien) > Chu Chung

Dai Dung Fung was a member of a secret society.

Der Gwok-Leung and Der Gwok-Cheung are two brothers. One of them was a magistrate.

Liu Tat Sung aka Pao Fa Lien – The two brothers adopted a son whose name was Liu Tat Sung.

Chu Chung began his studies under Liu Tat Sung at the age of 14 and had learned the complete system before leaving for Hong Kong in 1950’ In Foshan the style was always known as Wing Chun but on his arrival in Hong Kong he found other Hung Suen styles of Wing Chun being taught so to differentiate his style from the others he named it after his teacher Dai Dung Fung. -- " Pao Fa Lein Wing Chun Kung Fu"

In public, Grandmaster Chu Chung has never wanted to promote his style and he's a private person.

Chu Chung’s Sons -- Chu Win-Chi, Chu Weng-Cheun, Chu Weng-Chung, Chu Weng-Wah, Chu Chi-Ho

Chu Chung’s Stundents -- Ling Han-Wan, Ling Han-Jet, Lam Kam-Chiu, Lam Kam-Yoen, Lam Kam-Day, Lam Wan, Lam Ping, Chung Sun-Wah, Chung Man-Kong, Tseng Hing-Kong, Chu Sui-Sing, Wong Day-Gun, Pong Sui-Gun, Yu Sui-Ming, Leung Yip, Lau Gwok-San, Fok Ling and others....



http://cstang.www3.50megs.com/wing9.jpg

[Op108wc]

Chu Chung began his studies under Liu Tat Sung at the age of 14 and had learned the complete system before leaving for Hong Kong in 1950’ In Foshan the style was always known as Wing Chun but on his arrival in Hong Kong he found other Hung Suen styles of Wing Chun being taught so to differentiate his style from the others he named it after his teacher Dai Dung Fung. -- " Pao Fa Lein Wing Chun Kung Fu"


Correction: he named it after his teacher Liu Tat Sung

[Cang Long]

Interesting as new research uncovers more of the once hidden past the proof of the shaolin connection to Wing Chun and Wing Chun's connection to secret societies becomes more and more evident. Because of the records affirming The Big East Wind's existance and connection with secret societies there are now two branches originating directly from within the southern temple Hung Gun Bui and Dai Dong Fung. While the later more publicly known versions of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai are coming from the Red Boat era.

With the research of the Ving Tsun museum and organizations like it combined with written Chinese history and the oral histories of Wing Chun much of this past is just now being revealed to the public but never the less is becoming public knowledge for people interested in uncovinging this most interesting topic.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=97

[Marcelo-RJ]

Something must be clarified:

Was Dai Dung Fong contemporary to Cheung Ng, or was Dai Dung Fong contemporary to Hung Gun Biu?

If Dai Dung Fong was a Shaolin Monk (1600's), how come he and Hung Gun Biu were colleagues, since Hung Gun Biu was into the Hung Gun Wui (1800's)?

Marcelo

[duende]

Where'd you get 1600's??? :confused:

The Shaolin temples started waaaaay earlier and continued way later...


Perhaps you should do some research on the Boxer Rebellions and the prior history involved so that you can get a beter understanding.


http://www.shaolin.com/kungfu_martialarts_timeline.aspx

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hi, Duende!

> Where'd you get 1600's???

I got it from the family tree at hungfakwoon.com (http://www.hungfakwoon.com/familytree.htm)

Also, it's stated that Ng Mui could not be a Shaolin nun and a Red Boat contemporary because the Temple was burnt as far back as (+ or less) 1650 and the Red Boat Opera - to which Hung Gun Biu had a conexion - was founded at the beginning of the 19th Century.

So: was DDF a Southern Shaolin monk or a revolutionary colleague of Hung Gun Biu?

Marcelo

[duende]

Yeah... but that is just a brief rundown of OUR history (meaning Hung Fa Ting) for quick public consumption...

Dai Dung Fong was not Hung Fa Yi. But his history gives another clear example of how WC was not only taught at the Shaolin Temples, but originated there.

It also gives a another example, outside our history, of how WC was used in the Secret Societies.


As far as who's contemporary he was.... just do the math. It's all there. Hung Gun Biu.

In regards to Shaolin temples, remember... there were five main ones we know of at this time. Of those five, some of them fluxuated between active and inactive depending on regional political climate and other issues.

There is still so much to uncover.

[William E]

Marcelo

As you know, much of the information pertaining to Wing Chun and many martial arts was not well known to the public. The information regarding Dai Dung Fung and his place in Wing Chun history was not something that had been promoted publically at all. As the pieces start to come together, the picture becomes more clear.

Both Dai Dung Fong and Hung Gun Biu were secret society members during the same time, early 1800's. You need to trace back three generations to Cheung Ng and even further to the late 1600's and the Wing Chun Tong.


William E.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Yes, there are so many possibilities jumping out of DDF's Wing Chun... If he was a Shaolin Monk (as Pao Fa Lien's tradition dictates) from a temple other than the by-then-burnt-to-the-ground Fukien Monastery, then it'd be possible that the Weng Chun Tong's knowledge was taken to that other Shaolin monastery by other survivor than Yat Chum Dai Si and Cheung Ng.
If he was *not* a monk (or, being a monk, if he did not learn Wing Chun within that other Shaolin temple), it'd be possible that he had learned Wing Chun from the same source as Hung Gun Biu or even from HGB himself.
The premise that is taking shape: DDF and HGB were not Red Junk actors like LYT and WWB. So, we have Red Junk Wing Chun and Revolutionary Societies Wing Chun.
Now, has anyone here seen Pao Fah Lien Wing Chun? If positive, what does it resemble the most: HFYWC or Ip Man Wing Chun?

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Marcelo,
So: was DDF a Southern Shaolin monk or a revolutionary colleague of Hung Gun Biu?
To help with the confusion, Dai Dang Fong was a Northern Shaolin Monk and his entry into the WC community was establish around the 1800’s by him traveling from the North to the South. So his knowledge of WC was learned through Southern Shaolin decedents within the Red Boat Era (1800’s), having joined secret society member’s in the 1800’s. Also, since the Southern Shaolin Temple was burned over a hundred and fourty years previous to his life time, one must take a look at history of WC closer to see that their were three generations between the 1600’s and 1800’s.
James

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hi, James, this was exactly my point: DDF could not be a Fukien Shaolin monk, since that monastery was burnt by the time he lived. So, thank you for clarifying he came from the Northern Temple (just like Yat Chum Dai Si did in the 1600's, by the way).

So DDF's Wing Chun was Revolutionary Societies' Wing Chun, and my curiosity grows: does it look like HFY or is it closer to Red Boat Wing Chun (Ip Man, YKS, Mai Gwei Wong etc)?

M.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Marcelo,
With the Ip Man Family WC there is much confusion between so called traditional WC and Modified WC.
Regarding YKS even though they have Tan, Bong, & Fuk in their system, but their structures are much more different the IM WC that is one reason a lot of Main land WC are different then IM Hong Kong versions of WC.
For further confussion about Hendrik’s theory of WC comes from Emie and Fukien White Crane and also his clams WC Tan Sau comes from his water palm lineage. In other words, his claim is saying that his lineage is the oldest and most original as well as the mother of all WC. But the funny thing is that even Pao Fa Lien WC has also SLT, CK, and BJ in their system and goes against his claims, and Hendrik’s lineage only has SLT. Now does that make any sense to anyone?
Later, James

[duende]

Marcelo,

The only picture I know of of Pao Fa Lien is one of a man holding a kick position.

I had the same wonders as you, but unfortunately, you can't tell too much from the picture.

[Cang Long]

The premise that is taking shape: DDF and HGB were not Red Junk actors like LYT and WWB. So, we have Red Junk Wing Chun and Revolutionary Societies Wing Chun. Yes.

Secondarily we also have written Chinese history, Chinese culture, oral legend, and seperate from that there also exist attached to these men such as HGB and DDF secret society culture, tradition and history in all their various forms and they too must be accounted for in the vast research that is being done to go back in time to understand what we are actually looking at today.

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

Your last post hit the nail on the head again - more and more it looks like what everyone once accepted as the whole picture in regards to Wing Chun has many more layers to it. Hello James - it is fascinating to see that Hendrik still insists that his version of Wing Chun history is the truth. It may be so for his lineage, but not for the lineages of the heroic freedom fighters Hung Gun Biu and Dai Dung Fong. He still needs to understand that

(1) Wong Wah Bo - SLT, CK BJ

(2) Hendrik - Long SLT

(3) Chinese Records state that Wing Chun Kuen and Fukien White Crane are two disticnt arts

(4) Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun (county) White Crane are not the same.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Gary,
This hendrik characters has developed a theory of WC coming from White Crain with out ever presenting any facts. This theory directly insults Shaolin and its decedents and his past few years of behavior with thousands of verbal insults post with out presenting any evidence or facts to back his claims. Now, with Dai Dong Fong also presenting Shaolin connection as well of SLT CK and BJ, this is already proving that he is incorrect with out even looking at the evidence readily available through WWB LYT/actors lineage.
With that said how the blank can hindrik make claims that go against oral history as well as facts by way of historical time lines and visual/physical evidence?
Talk later, James

[Cang Long]

Yik Kam (Yi Jin, Changing Gold) was an actor in the Red Junk Opera who played the role of Cheung Tan, the proper woman. According to Cho family Wing Chun Kuen traditions, he was the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai.
Yik Kam history (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:EuNH47qq1sAJ:www.wingchunkuen.com/who/ancestors/yikkam.html+Yik+kam+wingchunkuen&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1)

Hung Fa Yi through Hung Gun Bui doing SNT/CK/BJ and also Pao Fa Lein with "Big East Wind" is also practicing SNT/CK/BJ before Yik Kam could possibly incorporate White Crane and Emei. Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai are senior to Yik Kam as well and still there are at least 3 generations training SNT/CK/BJ before WWB and LYT in order for this training to be passed down through them.

http://indomaster.diaryland.com/wingchunsty.html

[JamesHFYofAZ]

You nailed it Tony, that’s the point, he makes claims that go against history!!! With no Facts to back it up.:o

[mario bava]

Hello Tony and JamesHFY

Once again you have hit the nail on the head. Hendrik reminds me of the siituation in Ireland at the beginning of the 1900's. The Irish people were engaged in battle with British forces for freedom and the right to self-rule. The Irish knew we were Irish, the French knew we were Irish, the Yanks (!) knew we were Irish - the whole world knew we were Irish, all except the British who kept on telling us we should remain British!
I have the gut feeling Hendrik has the same mind-set as the British had in the 1900's - just as the British could not see that they were the only people who really were British, Hendrik cannot see that his lineage is the only one that connects to White Crane and Emei. Like the British in 1900's Ireland, Hendrik should just accept the facts and move on.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Op108wc]

Hendrik’s his-story

Hello there

Can Hendrik back up his claims with facts?


Originally posted by Hendrik

Since you and me are both one of many succesors of different system, we have the responsibility to clarify things for the Martial art public and future generation of Wing Chun Kuen and Weng Chun Kuen. This is Purely technical nothing personal.





Wait, Yik Kam didn’t invent his SLT. Didn’t you say he got it from Ermie and Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane?

“Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai are senior to Yik Kam as well and still there are at least 3 generations training SNT/CK/BJ before WWB and LYT in order for this training to be passed down through them.—Cang Long”

“…that’s the point, he makes claims that go against history!!! With no Facts to back it up. -- James”

Hendrik, you're reading from the same page. Getting what you want won’t spoil you.



Originally posted by Hendrik

If you want to invent your version or style mixing different arts, that is respectable. But dont expect others to buy your story about thier style is derive from yours.

[Cang Long]

Wait, Yik Kam didn’t invent his SLT. Didn’t you say he got it from Ermie and Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane? The most interestng part of this story like mario bava points out is that hendrik attempts to tell others that he knows their lineage and ancestry better than they. hendrik has yet to explain how as the third student behind Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai who according to some lineages actually are 4 generations removed from the source of Wing Chun then how could Yik Kam's one long SNT be older than SNT/CK/BJ.
Can Hendrik back up his claims with facts? When this topic was brought up on KFO earlier hendrik was silent leaving others to prove his position. Yik Kam's presence on the Wing Chun timeline will not allow for anything other than the possibility that his relevance to the Cho family is just as they report but the facts do not allow for Yik Kam to be the originator of SNT for all other wing Chun family who were practicing SNT/CK/BJ before Yik Kam was practicing one long SNT.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

:D :D :D

[Op108wc]

WWB and LYT didn't get their Tan Sau from "the water shape hand."

So Hendrik, Can you back up your claims with facts?

Never lose sight of the fact that the burden of proof is on the one making the claims.



Originally posted by Hendrik

the water shape hand is source where tan sau from.

If you believe otherwise, which seems like you believe in wing chun from other styles such as shao lin .you can pos your evidents.

trying to use all type of political wording, posting, to attack me doesnt mean you are corrected, but it shows you dont have evidents to support your own thesis.

[Cang Long]

Hello there El,

Yes you are absolutely correct,hendrik on his mission of subterfuge and purposefully misguided statements is indeed arguing against himself, the facts and the evidence. Wait, Yik Kam didn’t invent his SLT. Didn’t you say he got it from Ermie and Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane?Let us examine things the way they are not as hendrik might wish them to be.

As you point out hendrik is using Emie and Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane for his hypothesis that the modern day sets of SNT/CK/BJ were derived via Yik Kam and his fusion of Emie and Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane. Some of the inherant problems with this idea that hendrik has yet to answer are.

Physical Evidence

1. If the Cho family SNT is not unique to their family why is there no SNT form in Fukien White Crane or Emie before or since the time of Yik Kam?

http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/system.html
http://www.taijiquan.co.nz/whitecrane.htm
http://home.austarnet.com.au/tsuruken/p19.htm
http://www.taomartialarts.com/crn/crn_wuxinghand.html
http://www.emeiqigong.com/training.htm
http://www.ninedragonbaguazhang.com/emei.htm#emei
http://www.omei-wushu.com/programs.shtml

Historical Timeline

1. If hendrik's story is correct then why isn't Fang Chi-Niang the person behind the legend of Wing Chun instead of Ng Mui?
http://www.aei.ca/~straycat/kungfu/w-crane.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ng_Mui

2. If Yik kam is the creator of SNT would not that make him Sifu to Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai (because they passed down 3 sets snt/ck/bj) and not "the third student, after Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai"

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/reference/wong_wah-bo
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Encyclopedia&op=content&tid=80

added confusion
Fujian "Weng Chun County" White Crane. This school was founded by Fang Chut Liang, the legendary female martial artist. Fujian 'Weng Chun County" White Crane is not related to Wing Chun Kung Fu or Tibetan White Crane, the Shaolin Crane Form or the Tiger Crane form of Hung Gar.

http://www.singongtaichi.com/baihequan.html
http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/Bleachers/6758/Hequan.htm

These are but a few questions hendrik might want to answer for those interested in his theory.

[Op108wc]

Nutz N Honey!


Originally posted by Hendrik
So, IMHHO, I dont know who is Miu Shun, I have no idea who Yim Wing Chun is.

You don’t know them, but you can speak for them. Ha!


Originally posted by Hendrik
But with the data we gather so far it seems that they all converge ----- water shape hand, Tze Wu (centerline), Tio Yio,,, Snake slide cocoon moves....

That’s funny! You are a creature who lives upon your words alone.


Originally posted by Hendrik
Thus. the story of Miu Shun created the SLT or the Seed of WCK could be true.

Didn’t you just say that “I dont know who is Miu Shun”? Then you’re just telling a story. Dude, with luck and 1000’ posts….you surely can appoint yourself as DA STORY TELLER.


Originally posted by Hendrik
Some dont like this story and address that this is only applied to my lineage or Yik Kam lineage.

If at first you don’t succeed, try, try, again, 1000’ posts after 1000’ posts after 1000’s posts. Never quit.

[Cang Long]

Thus. the story of Miu Shun created the SLT or the Seed of WCK could be true. Clearly there are 2 hurdles that hendrik must overcome before connecting Yik Kam with the unknown Miu Shun. Namely they are hurdle number 1 Wong Wah-Bo and hurdle number 2 Leung Yee-Tai.

If only the facts would go away hendrik surely would have a nice little story to tell. hendrik how is it that the ancestors are always telling stories close to the truth when it aides hendriks point of view but they are never telling the truth when it comes to Shaolin.

It sounds like ego, it looks like ego and it smells like ego.

[Op108wc]

Hello there,

Very interesting! Robert not only overflowed with learning, but stood in the slop. Ha!

Is it time for Hendrik to quit his munbo jumbo?

“the water shape hand is source where tan sau from.—Hendrik”



Originally posted by Robert Chu
I believe the problem occurs when people see one version of "history" as the only truth, and close their mind to actual events.

People might best state things in a neutral tone, saying, "According to my research, this is what I feel happened...", then going on to say, "According to other sources, these events were taken into consideration, so therefore, one might also conclude...". By taking this high ground, alleged leaders of research would appear more scholarly, and be less apt to be criticized.

It is always the people which censors things for you, tells you what to think, and tries to cram their version of events to you that are met with criticism and resistance. Being broad minded and hearing out the alleged opposing side allows you to be more equinamous.

Of course, what I said will probably be taken as a threat to some, or go over others' heads.

[Cang Long]

Originally posted by Robert Chu
I believe the problem occurs when people see one version of "history" as the only truth, and close their mind to actual events. hmmm maybe hendrik will listen to Robert somehow it seems not likely.

[sauchi]

It sounds like Robert is just talking about himself.

Henrick is delusional. Come on!!!

So were does he get his sources and who gave him this authority to make such a bold statement.

He is totally dead wrong - my grandmother came up with Tan Sau in her sleep!

Sauchi

[Cang Long]

Originally posted by Hendrik
So, IMHHO, I dont know who is Miu Shun, I have no idea who Yim Wing Chun is.

One minute hendrik is posting links to Miu Shun, the next he doesn't even know Mui Shun. Maybe its time for a vacation ;)

[Op108wc]

So, what's it called Fukien Weng Chun County White Crane SLT? Hendrik and Robert lost me on that one.


Originally posted by Hendrik

the water shape hand is source where tan sau from.

If you believe otherwise, which seems like you believe in wing chun from other styles such as shao lin .you can pos your evidents.



BTW, it's kind of funny Hendrik questioning whether Yim Wing-Chun knows anything about Shaolin Wing Chun.



Originally posted by Cang Long
The most interestng part of this story like mario bava points out is that hendrik attempts to tell others that he knows their lineage and ancestry better than they. hendrik has yet to explain how as the third student behind Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee-Tai who according to some lineages actually are 4 generations removed from the source of Wing Chun then how could Yik Kam's one long SNT be older than SNT/CK/BJ.

When this topic was brought up on KFO earlier hendrik was silent leaving others to prove his position. Yik Kam's presence on the Wing Chun timeline will not allow for anything other than the possibility that his relevance to the Cho family is just as they report but the facts do not allow for Yik Kam to be the originator of SNT for all other wing Chun family who were practicing SNT/CK/BJ before Yik Kam was practicing one long SNT.

[mario bava]

Hello There

In relation to this 'water-shape hand' story of Hendriks', he has said that some people:

"address that this is only applied to my lineage or Yik Kam lineage."

That is the first statement of Hendriks that I agree with.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Cang Long]

"address that this is only applied to my lineage or Yik Kam lineage." hendrik will need to explain how it could possibly be anything other than his family kung fu by addressing the fact that Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai were Yik Kam's seniors and they both passed on the 3 forms of Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu and Biu Jee.