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BennyMeng
09-12-2003, 08:11 PM
The notes below were taken from a short series of lectures by Sifu Benny Meng over the course of the month of August, 2003. One of the main objectives of these notes is to prepare the reader for 1) dealing with the public and 2) more advanced material, to be presented by Grand Master Gee in October, in Phoenix, AZ.

Over the months and years since the first public introduction of Hung Fa Yi there has been a lot of interest. Unfortunately, there are many people that do not know their proper etiquette and conduct as martial artists - or even as human beings. People have tried to discredit the name of HFY or tarnish the reputation of the family out of ignorance, greed and/or fear. Many people make strong statements demanding answers to the most personal and direct questions about the source of the system. For example, "Who is Dr. Wong Ming; where is he located?" "Where are the HFY practitioners in China?" "Where is the proof of the system?" Even for self-professed experts in Chan that quote Chan books rather than speak with any authoritative understanding of their own; to those uneducated in Chan these people appear to be experts but by sharing no unique experience these professed experts reveal their own ignorance. Hung Fa Yi is both a unique combat science and a unique branch of Chan. The system includes phrases and terms not found in other Chan lineages. The key concepts below prepare students for future Chan lectures both within the HFY lineage and within the general Chan family. True experts in Chan outside the HFY lineage recognize the validity of the teachings contained within HFY.

The answers to these questions have not been forthcoming for several reasons. First, as the requests being made by rude people, requests actually as demands rather than honest questions for information. Second, even if the answers were provided, the people asking do not have the necessary foundation in the culture of Chinese martial arts and Buddhism to understand. The HFY system is a complete system with wisdom and traditions that serve a very vital and living purpose. Even when teaching our own students, we teach at the right place and right time, introducing new information appropriately for the student. This timing and flow of information is due to the needs of the student and the development of their skill rather than out of a sense of secrecy. It is important for our own members to be educated on the history, traditions, and methods of the art.

Faat Mun
(Methods Door)

As Disciples progress in their knowledge of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun, the system delves deeply into Chan modalities and methods. These methods are called Faat Mun and are reserved for people inside the system.

In HFY training, being one of the Shaolin Chan systems, much of the deeper learning and knowledge is based on an understanding of Chan. At the same time, many of the phrases are unique to HFY, a bridge between fighting and Chan. For example, the following three phrases are used in Chan but have specific meanings to HFY members. Only HFY members will understand why and how these specific phrases relate to both Chan and fighting because they have gone through the Hou Chyun San Sau of HFY training.

Gaau Ngoi Bat Chyun
(teach outside not pass on)

Bat Lap Man Ji
(not establish written word)

Ngo Ga Fung Juk
(my family customs clan)

Chan can be approached as a religion, a science or even a philosophy, but it is not limited to any one of these three approaches to reality. If the Disciple does not understand the intent and language of Chan, the deeper aspects of the system will not be understood as they are expressed almost exclusively in Chan terms. In an effort to have objective study of the HFY system, Chan must be understood by the Disciples

Chan should be understood in the least as the foundation out of which the HFY system was fabricated. If the foundation is not understood, much of the implicit meaning of the system will be lost as implicit meaning is lost when looking for literal translations of terminology.


Kuen Faat Daai Ji
(Fist Method Disciple)

Kuen Seut Daai Ji
(Fist Skill Disciple)

For experienced HFY members, there is a distinction to be made between Kuen Faat and Kuen Seut. Keun Seut refers to general martial art practitioners. Kuen Faat refers to a disciple learning the deeper layers of meaning in Shaolin Chan martial arts.

Gaau Ngoi Bat Chyun - when teaching, don't pass on to outsiders

This phrase is the key to understanding the layers of the system. When teaching, don't give out the Faat Mun, the gates to the methods. There are three layers to the system - Fau Kiu, Saan Kiu and Weng Kiu. This is necessary not out of any sense of secrecy or "protecting the rice bowl" but due to the nature of learning. Before teaching Saan Kiu level material, students must understand and experience Fau Kiu training first. Fau Kiu is fundamental to Saan Kiu.

By way of example as to the layering of the system and its interdependence on Chan even in the term Fau Kiu lies much meaning. Moving from Fau Kiu to Saan Kiu is a major achievement. To truly understand the importance and relevance in moving from Fau Kiu to Saan Kiu, it is necessary to understand Fau Kiu from a Chan perspective.

Fau Kiu is the world of desire. Samsara is the world of life and death - a word in which human beings are constantly being reborn in each moment of their lives. There are six layers or levels in the world of Samsara, also known as the six world of suffering. These six worlds can be thought of as a ladder with rungs in successive order from lowest to highest. The bottom three rugs, Demons/Hungry Ghosts/Animals are known as the Undesirable States while the three Desirable States are Human Beings/Titans/Gods. Regardless of such labels as Desirable or Undesirable, it should be understood that all six levels are equally Fau Kiu.

Demons are at the lowest level of Samsara. These are people that are consumed by their hatred - of themselves and/or others. Their lives are all about vengeance and revenge.

Hungry Ghosts are the 2nd lowest level of Samsara. Depicted as beings with large bellies and small throats, Hungry Ghosts are people that are motivated by Greed and insatiable desire.

Animals are the 3rd lowest level of Samsara. Animals are people that are ignorant of the world, ignorant of themselves, lazy, and complacent.

Humans represent the middle level of Samsara. Humans have the latitude to move throughout the realms. By good actions, they move up the ladder towards Gods while bad actions move them down towards Demons. Only Human Beings have the possibility of escaping the world of Samsara, enlightening from Fau Kiu to Saan Kiu to Weng Kiu.

Titans are the next highest level of Samsara. Titans are people jealous of others. They show off their strength often, shaming others with their dedication to their goals, ambitions, and beliefs; their behavior is due to their hunger for power.

Gods are the highest level of Samsara. These are people that are proud and self-righteous. Having sacrificed their little egos, they tap into something greater than themselves, effectively creating an even larger ego.

These six states exist much like the Seven Deadly Sins of Christianity as a means to understand the dangers of the ego and identification with our emotions. To escape from these six states, we must transcend our desires. This is moving from Fau Kiu to Saan Kiu, arriving at the Siu Nim. In Chan, this is fundamental to understanding our true nature. Being attached and driven by our wants, we will never find our true center - much like a tree blown about by the winds of a tempest. Also, moving from Fau Kiu to Saan Kiu is a major accomplishment for any human.

When teaching someone, the first step is to teach Kuen Suet - fist skills/arts. Generally, this is all that is taught to outsiders, the body mechanics of a technique. For inside members, or someone from the public that has gone through the body mechanics, a second layer of information is taught, Kuen Faat - fist methods, expressing the Buddhist roots of the system and deeper layers of the art. Keun Kuit - Fist Idiom is not synonymous with Kuen Faat. Kuen Kuit is the technical information for Kuen Suet. Kuen Kuit also tends to be more of a general martial arts term without the Buddhist overtones and influence. Kuen Faat are not taught at the outset because the student does not have the foundation to neither understand nor appreciate the difference between Kuen Suet or Kuen Faat. An example at this stage is Kuen Suet: Siu Lim Tau vs. Kuen Faat: Siu Nim Tau.

When teaching insiders, there is still a Kuen Suet and a Kuen Faat but the level of detail is different. By insider, it is meant as someone inside the system rather than someone belonging to some form of organization. For people inside the system (disciples), the Kuen Suet is the Sup Ming Dim. This is fundamental to understanding the system. The Kuen Faat is Sup Jit Sim Fung - 10 sections/parts Chan spirit. The release of this new information is because, when a student moves from a Fau Kiu understanding of Chum Kiu to a Saan Kiu understanding of Chum Kiu, a new understanding of Siu Nim Tau is required at a deeper level. Sup Jit Sim Fung refers to the proper combination of body mechanics, breathing and intent (Yi Nim - lit. meaning and intent) in Siu Nim Tau. One of the phrases at this level is "enter white light, exit black light" (yahp baak gwong; chut hak gwong ). Teaching this level of detail when a student doesn't have the necessary body mechanics is nothing but idle theory for the student. The student must have an experience and understanding of Siu Nim Tau before being taught Sup Jit Sim Fung.

For the Chum Kiu level, the time/space/energy layer is Fau Kiu, is Kuen Suet. There is still a Kuen Faat to be learned but Sup Jit Sim Fung must be experienced and understood first. This process of learning one piece at a time and then being given an explanation of how each piece connects to the next is called Ming Dim. Ming Dim means that we will understand why things are done the way they are done when we get there.

Sup Jit Sim Fung is a HFY Chan phrase which matches a more commonly known Buddhist concept of "gau jit faht fung". This phrase connects to the nature of mind and is taught through two phrases (they refer to the same ideal): sau faat (hand methods) and hou faat (oral methods).

Understanding the idea of "Not passing on to outsiders" from a Chan perspective is important. We do not "withhold" information but, rather, we teach what is appropriate for each layer of the system. For example, the Sum Ming Dim are built on the foundation established by the Siu Lim Tau and the Siu Nim Tau. Teaching the Sup Ming Dim to someone that has no foundation in three-dimensional space as the reality for fighting serves little point as the person does not truly possess a frame of reference to understand the full value of this information. Instead, the student is given references that are appropriate to a Fau Kiu level of understanding. As the student gains experience, deeper layers of the system are taught. Moving into the Sup Jit Sim Fung, a student must first understand and be familiar with the Siu Nim Tau form before being given a more precise focus that includes breathing and mental intent combined with visualization and hei circulation. By being given all these details first, before the student has any familiarity with their body, the student's kung fu will lack breadth of experience, risking becoming only a thin tree instead of a wide oak.

Bat Laap Mun Ji - don't establish written words

This leads into the phrase Bat Laap Mun Ji. Mun Ji means "written characters" and Bat Laap means "don't establish" - put together this phrase means that we should not establish written words in describing the training and kung fu. These 4 keywords link to the phrase Hou Chyun San Sau - giving us a full phrase of Hou Chyun San Sau, Bat Laap Mun Ji = Oral teaching, body receiving; don't write things down. This phrase is also a key to teaching the system. Teachers can describe an experience but students must experience it for themselves. Writing things down locks knowledge, making it dead. Instead of teaching words, we should be teaching experience. If this is the case, how can the system be kept intact? This is accomplished through the use of Sou Dou Waai Jeui and/or Sau Faat Waai Jeui . These two phrases refer to keeping the methods as the main part of the experience/training. It's not so much just what you say but also the experiences you give your students.

Writing things down for yourself is one thing - writing things down for students is quite another. Students must learn to approach concepts and knowledge from their own experience to make the kung fu a living skill. Written words become a trap for the student as they tend to listen to the words and not their own experience. In Chan, it is more important to understand the experience being communicated that it is to rely on the steps that got you to that experience. Each of us, being individuals, will arrive the experience different ways - the words used serve to help prepare us and give us a context in which to understand our experience of time/space/energy. Suffice it to say, if written words become law above experience - rather than being seen as complimentary as expressed in the phrase Hou Cheun San Sau - the system will start to distort.

Studying Shaolin and focusing on experience, we must not lose sight of the fact that Shaolin did keep extensive and excellent written texts and records. These texts were not textbooks in the modern sense. Instead, these books were collections of poetry used by disciples to capture the essential nature of the system. Instructional books with specific steps serves a purpose for beginners - helping to establish a foundation, but the deeper aspects of the system cannot be understood in this format. This type of learning becomes mechanical and dead in the long run. Instead, the type of writing employed by the Shaolin was poetry written for disciples to enjoy the experience of reading it - similar to holding up a flower and enjoying the meaning behind the flower. Holding up a flower is a symbolic act that calls to mind a deeper experience rather than some from of formal discourse. At the deeper levels, this was the intent of Shaolin writing.

Ngo Ga Fung Juk - my family's rules and customs

The two phrases, Gaau Ngoi Bat Chyun and Bat Laap Mun Ji, and the ideas to which they refer are the customs and rules of the Hung Fa Yi Kung Fu Family.

Cang Long
09-13-2003, 01:59 PM
Reading that post was more than a mere sit down to read as you suggest Sigung that was an experience unto itself. The beauty of Hung Fa Yi like the flower is also self evident and it is most unfortunate that explinations and clarification like these are necessary but if and when it has to be stated it should be stated exactly as you have done. If that were the only post to ever grace the pages of this forum this web site would still be more valuable than the cost of keeping it posted and online for the next 500 years. The joy and experience of HFY is an excellent experience but that joy is mutiplied ten fold when experienced with a family such as ours. I want to thank Sitiagung Grandmaster Gee, Sigung Master Meng and my Sifu Lowenhaegen Sifu and all my kung fu brothers and sisters for allowing me to enjoy and partake in just such an experience. Thank you all.


Sincerely,

Savi
09-13-2003, 08:20 PM
I'm used to getting things down pretty well pretty fast (kung fu sponge, you know?), but IMO Sigung's post was the cadillac of Chan posts. That's too much for me to absorb in one reading, and comprehend it all! As the post stated, that was a summation of the month of August. I have MUCH to learn... (I feel sooo fau kiu....)

But as the season turns, I'm sure my energies will align with it and grow. The hunger I have to understand and experience Chan Buddhism I know will be met in due time. Sometimes, you just want to get out Fau Kiu so bad, you know!

I will certainly be reading it over and over during the coming weeks...

Thank you Sigung.

JK Walz
09-14-2003, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by hfysavi
I'm used to getting things down pretty well pretty fast (kung fu sponge, you know?), but IMO Sigung's post was the cadillac of Chan posts.

I, unlike Savy, am the Kung Fu Slab of Granite and it takes a long, long, long, time for things to be slowly absorbed into my change-resisting surface, but they eventually are.

Essays like this assist in that process in that they can be seen as a guide or road map. This essay is so full of explicit detail and information that it will certainly help nudge me along the path to understanding.

I guess the problem inherent with such things as maps is that if you look at the map too long you can begin to think it is reality and you forget to see what is going on around you. If you get lost trying to find your classes on the first day of school, but eventually find your way, the next day and the next day after that will be easier and easier. If you rely on the map every day you never truly learn the way.

Again- thanks for the nudge Sigung. Your essay will be a useful tool.

JK

Savi
09-17-2003, 12:31 AM
Just read through it again Sigung... it makes me feel empty inside. Kind of like walking in the rain between the puddles on the ground.

I think to be a "realized" HFY student, we must share its heart.

My training in Kung Fu I think will take a different turn from here, one of deeper meaning in truly finding myself in Chan. It begins with inner-silence...

Savi
09-25-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by JK Walz
I, unlike Savy, am the Kung Fu Slab of Granite and it takes a long, long, long, time for things to be slowly absorbed into my change-resisting surface, but they eventually are. JK, you know the Hulk's skin is in a way change-resisting.

In discussing the Samsara, they consist of the six worlds correct? from Demons, Ghosts, Animals, Humans, Titans and Gods. This brought up an interesting question to my mind. I know that Meng Zhing Shakaya (sp?) wrote a book entitled the Seventh World of Chan, but at this moment I do not have time to research it myself. Can anyone tell me what is the seventh world of Chan about? *wink, wink jeremy*

I am only asking this because I don't want to forget the question, and right now I am not in a position to look myself. Most certainly I will pick up the book myself, I'd just like a little intro before that chance comes my way.

gilsinger
09-25-2003, 06:27 PM
Ming Zhen Shakya.

http://www.hsuyun.org/Dharma/zbohy/Literature/7thWorld/7th-world-home.html

I downloaded the eBook and am about 20% of the way through. I have so many sources for reading these days, but it's the sort of thing you're supposed to go through slowly anyway. The early part of the book is history from India and China. It's well-written, definitely you should check it out.

He put it this way:
"The Seventh World is the beginning, the place we are when we wake up and look upon ourselves objectively for the first time, when we are seized by the impulse to change, to transform ourselves and our environment. We want to be free of needing the people, places and things of this world. We have had them and they did not make us happy. We need to simplify existence and to find in that simplicity peace, joy, truth and freedom."

Levi
09-25-2003, 06:45 PM
"The Seventh World is the beginning, the place we are when we wake up and look upon ourselves objectively for the first time, when we are seized by the impulse to change, to transform ourselves and our environment. We want to be free of needing the people, places and things of this world. We have had them and they did not make us happy. We need to simplify existence and to find in that simplicity peace, joy, truth and freedom."

This sounds very similar to Siu Nim to me. It seems to describe the paradigm shift.

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

JK Walz
09-25-2003, 07:06 PM
Originally posted by hfysavi
This brought up an interesting question to my mind. I know that Meng Zhing Shakaya (sp?) wrote a book entitled the Seventh World of Chan, but at this moment I do not have time to research it myself. Can anyone tell me what is the seventh world of Chan about?

Savi-

I have a copy of this if you would like it.

It's also floating around the kwoon somewhere too.

JK

passing_through
11-10-2003, 11:56 AM
Kuen Seut basically equals: use the fist to develop skills where fist calls to mind all traditional fighting skills (kick, strike, capture, throw).

Kuen Faat basically equals: use the fist to see reality where fist is as above and faat refers to Dharma in the Buddhist context (Dharma=reality beyond words, reality beyond the filter of the ego).

Kuen Seut looks to explain what and how. For example: "This is a Jab. Here's how you do a Jab."

Kuen Faat looks to understand "Why Jab?" This question of "why" opens a very large door... why:
Physically?
Tactically?
Strategically?
Energetically?
Emotionally?
Morally?
Spiritually?
(more?)

How does learning about fighting make me more aware of the Dharma, more aware of the reality around me and within me? That’s a big question to ask.

I recently read a post somewhere on the 'Net that stated, "If HFY uses a raised leg and a biu sau while closing the gap it's the same thing." When I read that comment, it hit me like a punch: he's studying Kuen Seut, not Kuen Faat. There can be no discussion of why until he realizes that he's looking for what/how instead of looking for why.

I think this is part of the challenge we face in bringing HFY to the public. Most martial artists don’t truly realize that they’d operating in a Kuen Seut frame of reference (Kuen Seut timefame) instead of the Kuen Faat frame of reference (Kuen Faat timeframe). Kuen Seut is certainly required for martial artists but it’s really just the first layer, isn’t it?

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

passing_through
11-12-2003, 11:27 AM
Looking at Yentao's reply to my post (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=152&perpage=15&pagenumber=4) it occurs to me that there really are layers in the Gong Wu (the martial arts community). I can relate to what Yentao is sharing about his kiu sau training but he can't relate to mine.

In my opinion, he's operating out of a Kuen Seut timeframe. It seems to me that in his training to date, he hasn't experienced the three layers of Kiu Sau training - I suggest this because be cannot relate to the progressions that I shared with him. Even if the terms are different, if he has experience with the progressive training of kiu sau he should be able to relate in some manner - I can relate to what he's sharing based on my experience, even though I don't recognize his words. He did relate to the fist progression but not the second two.

This is a serious challenge we have to recognize when discussing Kung Fu with people from different backgrounds. Sure we have terms but what to the terms mean? What's the experience behind the terms? What is the experience of the person using the terms? If we get wrapped up in technical terms and names for things but don't experience the fundamental training those terms attempt to describe, we'll fall short of the mark in developing our bodies and minds - our kung fu will be limited in depth and breadth.

I mean no disrespect to Yentao - I appreciate and respect his willingness to share and discuss his art, as well as his dedication to learning.

Looking at my post in the other thread and Yentao's reply, does anyone else have anything to share?

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

JohnL
11-12-2003, 06:54 PM
Sifu,

I recognize the depth of the knowledge contained in Saam Moh Kiu. It contains a wisdom that is chan and also relates to the nurturing parents give to their children as they prepare them for life. It is a journey.

JohnL

Levi
11-20-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by BennyMeng
Instead of teaching words, we should be teaching experience. If this is the case, how can the system be kept intact? This is accomplished through the use of Sou Dou Waai Jeui and/or Sau Faat Waai Jeui. These two phrases refer to keeping the methods as the main part of the experience/training. It's not so much just what you say but also the experiences you give your students.

I was re-reading this in my notes, and I realized that I do not know what the direct translation of these phrases are. Could someone help me out with the characters and/or translation of these two phrases:

Sou Dou Waai Jeui

Sau Faat Waai Jeui

I have an idea of what they mean, but I do not want to decide until I have the information for sure.

Thanks in advance!

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

passing_through
11-20-2003, 05:26 PM
After talking with Sigung a bit this weekend, I might have to revise the characters I'm using but...

Sou Dou Waai Jeui and Sau Faat Waai Jeui are parallel concepts that refer to using the Way (Dou) and the Methods (Faat) as the primary means to cultivate yourself. This means that you have to focus on Reality rather than specific mechanics to see Reality. I've just read something in the Bodhisattva Warriors book that really hits this point. If you have a copy, check out pages 219-227.

Hope this helps,
Jeremy R.

dragon lady
11-20-2003, 11:53 PM
Like some of my sihingdai have mentioned, it will take some time to process all of Sigung Meng's post. This however, struck me immediately:

Originally posted by BennyMeng

Bat Laap Mun Ji - don't establish written words

Writing things down for yourself is one thing - writing things down for students is quite another. Students must learn to approach concepts and knowledge from their own experience to make the kung fu a living skill. Written words become a trap for the student as they tend to listen to the words and not their own experience.

[/B]


I have always had trouble reconciling when I heard people use the phrase Bat Laap Mun Ji then grab a notebook at the next seminar. Perhaps I am a little slow, but Sigung's wording made it very clear to me. I can totally see the difference in the writing of information as a person tool and using it for an instuctional base. This is not to say that one should rely on her notes for everything. Ultimately, what you have after Hau Chun San Sau is all you have. I am glad that I saw, ironically in writing , this explanation and I look forward to the other doors that will be opened as I begin to comprehend other parts of the post as well.

crystal

BennyMeng
02-27-2004, 01:43 PM
This is a question for everyone.

The Chinese make a distinction between the work Hok (http://home.vtmuseum.org/terminology/characters.php?dfn=c&Ssearchfield=English+Translations&SsearchFor=academic&Ssortfield=Definitions&Sway=ASC&Slimit=20), which is “to learn” and Sau (http://www.chinalanguage.com/cgi-bin/view.php?dbase=ccdict&query=4FEE&mode=internal&lang=en&beijing=pinyin&canton=jyutping&meixian=default&sound=0&fields=yale,pinyin,english), which is “to cultivate”. For a Shaolin system, we normally say we Sau Kuen – cultivate our fist. In Chinese, we don't say we learn Shaolin kung fu we say we cultivate our Shaolin kung fu.

What do you see as the difference between Hok and Sau?

Levi
02-27-2004, 02:10 PM
Well, looking at the definitions, Hok means "to learn," but also "to imitate." Sau means "to learn," but also "to cultivate" and "to build."

To me, it seems that Hok refers to academic study, for example reading about something or looking at something or imitating something, while it seems that Sau refers to using the study creatively, for example testing and trying out and getting hands on experience.

It is said that the mind knows and the body understands. Perhaps the mind uses Hok and the body uses Sau.

It seems that Hok is limited to the knowledge itself and the strength of the teacher, while Sau is limited only by reality and the effort that the student puts into the learing experience.

In the long run, it seems that Sau would give the student a deeper, more meaningful understanding, not just memorization.

-Levi

JamesHFYofAZ
02-28-2004, 01:48 AM
To me, it seems that Hok refers to academic study, for example reading about something or looking at something or imitating something, while it seems that Sau refers to using the study creatively, for example testing and trying out and getting hands on experience. I was thinking the samething in other words. My view,
1) learn, to aquire knoledge, or mastery by study or experience, to memorize, to become informed of. This creats an end.
2) cultivate, to grow, to prepare and improve, to improve and define by education, to seek aquaintance or good will of. number two sound more of a never ending journey to me! :D

dmilner321
03-02-2004, 09:13 PM
Sigung, this is a really interesting topic and distinction of terms, and has me intrigued.

I went out to dictionary.com and looked up the definition of "learn" and "cultivate". I found:

Learn:

1. To gain knowledge, comprehension, or mastery of through experience or study.
2. To fix in the mind or memory; memorize: learned the speech in a few hours.
3. To acquire experience of or an ability or a skill in: learn tolerance; learned how to whistle.
4. To become aware: learned that it was best not to argue.
5. To become informed of; find out. See Synonyms at discover.

Cultivate:

1. To improve and prepare (land), as by plowing or fertilizing, for raising crops; till.
2. To loosen or dig soil around (growing plants).
3. To grow or tend (a plant or crop).
4. To promote the growth of (a biological culture).
5. To nurture; foster. See Synonyms at nurture.
6. To form and refine, as by education.
7. To seek the acquaintance or goodwill of; make friends with.

I would have to say that in looking at those two definitions the major thing that stands out to me in why we would say we cultivate Shaolin kungfu as opposed to learn Shaoling kungfu is that all of the definitions of cultivate seem to involve the tending and nurturing of something that has life and grows, and emphasizes the skills necessary. It makes me think of what it takes to grow a plant or a crop - faithful oversight, consistent nutrients, weeding, tending, watering.

Learning may be an accurate description also - it certainly doesn't appear to be a false statement that we learn Shaolin kungfu, but it doesn't emphasize the same thing.

Maybe some of that is what you're endeavoring to teach us - that with a cultivating mindset and approach we may see a better crop.

Thanks much for initiating the study and to all my brothers and sisters posting great observations too.

Dave Milner

Pat Keeley
03-10-2004, 08:29 PM
I think that these terms have very specific nuances in Chinese, which I am unfamiliar with. Perhaps "to learn" refers to the process of consciously aquiring knowledge, while "to cultivate" refers to the process of internalizing and automatizing consciously learned knowledge so that it can be expressed automatically.

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