VTM’s latest research on Southern Shaolin Kung Fu

[BennyMeng]

Topic: Kiu Sau

What do systems like Wing Chun, Hun Kuen, Baak Mei, Southern Praying Mantis, S. White Crane, Leung Ying have in common aside from originating in S. Shaolin?

Kiu Sau is the technical level where they share common ground. The VTM Research Team has been focusing on this particular topic within the Wing Chun Community for several years now. Not too many modern day wing chun systems use the term Kiu sau and most of the modern day wing chun practitioners are familiar with Chi Sau, but there are few wing chun lineages that do contain the term and concepts of Kiu Sau. The VTM Research Team is currently studying those few systems, one of which is Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. An upcoming magazine article from the Museum will cover Kiu Sau in greater depth. This thread introduces the topic.

The Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun system uses both Kiu Sau and Chi Sau, as well as an intermediate timeframe called Chi Kiu – each with its own distinctive training methods and tactics. In short, the progression in HFY goes from Kiu Sau to Chi Kiu, to Chi Sau. As noted, each has its own nature, concepts and, principles. The HFY Siu Nim Tau level normally begins with Kiu Sau to teach people how to engage opponents in a way that covers all directions from a long range. Chi Kiu teaches contact skill after bridging with a primary focus on grappling and anti-grappling. The last progression, Chi Sau focuses on how to harmonize with an opponent in close quarter squared up facing situations. The most recent research trip took the team to San Francisco to the International Hung Fa Yi Headquarters. A research summary and workshop report will be available soon.

The VTM has also been organizing, promoting and standardizing Chi Sau rules on many major tournaments. Unfortunately, only 90% of the competitors are from Wing Chun families. The Museum is currently beginning to set up rules for Southern Shaolin Kiu Sau methods, thus allowing many southern systems to compete. I’m sure this trip will help provide more information to help make this healthy exchange of Shaolin experience and technical skills a reality.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Thank you Sigung for this topic, I have been doing some research also for personal interest and have found that the term Kiu Sau is used in many systems from Southern to Northern but the use is style dependent but Kiu sau is implied, some directly use the term and others don’t but either way forearm bridging is essential to hand-to-hand combat training and application, even looking further into the subject matter karate makes use of kiu sau techniques as well I can truly only relate to a few of them having experienced them first hand, and I can say that the use within HFY is unique while obeying the laws of nature.

I am going to invite some of the other families over to maybe give a brief understanding to kiu sau and its use, in that respect it is likewise that I do the same and maybe a truly historical discussion will take place.

Kiu Sau- a risk management tool, it allows one to move around an opponent, use of forearm to forearm contact, energy of HFY Kiu Sau is neither hard nor soft, nor is it internal or external. The energy that is used is considered an on and off energy and KS never goes against WC principles in time, space, and energy. Kiu Sau is also an anti-grappling tool because proper contact of the opponent’s wrist will automatically affect his/her ability to use their hand to grab or apply Kan Na
KS training has two methods to train ones bridge, the three star structure and the 4 1/2 point, which both understood one gains full comprehension of Kiu Sau, and of course their is a whole lot more.....
later...

[passing_through]

Instructor’s Training at the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association Headquarters
Friday March 24th to Sunday March 26th, 2006
San Francisco, CA

First, I would like to say thank you to my Sigung, Grand Master Garrett Gee, for his time and efforts in sharing the treasure of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun with the martial arts community. Grand Master Gee’s efforts and explanations of the nature of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun continue to amaze and impress all genuine martial artists that have the good fortune to encounter his teachings.

I would also like to say thank you to my Sifu, Master Benny Meng, for granting me permission participate in the Instructor Training weekend. Without my Sifu’s input and efforts to develop my foundation in martial arts, along with continued discussion and training, I would surely get caught up in my own thinking.

Thanks to everyone that same to this year's Instructor's Training. The meals and conversations were great. I'm looking forward to the next one and everyone's continued growth.

If any of the following report is not clear, I take full responsibility for the miscommunication. The depth and wisdom of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is greater than I can hope to grasp in one encounter. In my experience, it often takes several exposures and layers of knowledge to truly “get it” when it comes to training in the Hung Fa Yi System Approach.

To all other workshop participants, please feel free to correct any mistakes or add any omissions as well as share your own experience and feedback on the workshop. It is only through interaction that we can all learn and grow along our path in martial arts.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

The overall focus of this year’s Instructor’s Training at the World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association Headquarters was focused on two areas of the Siu Nim Tau stage of Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun: Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau and Ying Hok Bong Kiu Sau (I only attended one session on this block of instruction because of my travel schedule so any corrections are appreciated). These two areas are a part of the overall Kiu Sau logic and experience contained in the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System. As a pre-requisite to training the Saam Sing Jong and Ying Hok Bong Kiu Sau, students must know the appropriate details, which are contained in the third section of Siu Nim Tau (referred to as Advanced Siu Nim Tau).

Grand Master Gee also covered the six major areas of Siu Nim Tau Certification for Instructors as well as Training Categories for Instructors. Again, the two lists below are from my notes and could be misrepresented. Please don’t take these two lists to heart.

Six Areas of Siu Nim Tau Certification for Instructors (in alphabetical order
1. Advanced Siu Nim Tau
2. Baai Jong Baat Bo Jin
3. Four Gate Defense
4. Kiu Sau
5. Paak Sau
6. Wing Chun Formula

Training Categories:
1. Initial Training with Grand Master Gee through Instructor Workshops
2. Training with own Sifu to fill in the gaps
3. Review and Quality Check by Grand Master Gee, introduction of teaching logic for students

Friday Night started around 6:00 PM, stopped for dinner at 7:25 PM, resumed at 9:39 PM, and concluded around 12:00. We discussed Single Hand Chi Sau, drilled the Advanced Siu Nim Tau, and discussed the history and differences of Kiu Sau & Chi Sau before the dinner break. Friday Night before the break also included a discussion on the difference between the Wing Chun Formula and the Sap Ming Dim concept. While related to each other, these concepts are each unique with a separate logic flow and physical expression.

After dinner on Friday night, Grand Master Gee shared some of his personal experiences with the Qigong cultivation practices within the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System and some of his experiences with his own Sifu. Following that, there was a short business meeting which brought out some lively discussion. The Grand Master encouraged everyone to share their point of view during the weekend and over the next few weeks. Grand Master Gee stated that he wanted to hear both sides, saying “There’s always two sides but there’s still only one coin.” Grand Master Gee also encouraged everyone to get involved, saying that debate is both healthy and necessary to learn how to communicate in the future. Instructors have to have the ability to communicate to their students. Interaction is always better than staying reserved. When you interact, you share and test your own energy. This is one of the myriad ways that the concepts and methods of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System overlap between training the traditional art and living life, showing the depth and consistency of the system.

Saturday started promptly at 10:00 AM. The day started with more drilling of the Advanced Siu Nim Tau and time was spent on many of the key details in section three. The topic of Wing Chun Formula and Sap Ming Dim was revisited again and then the workshop focused on two types wing arm in Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun: Hok Bong Sau and Ying Bong Sau – Crane and Eagle. The Hok Bong Sau makes use of a bent wrist with the elbow parallel to the shoulder while the Ying Bong Sau makes use of a straight wrist with the elbow higher than the shoulder. Almost as many Wing Chun lineages use the Hok Bong Sau as used the Eagle Bong Sau. Often there is debate about the “correct” or “right” Bong Sau. From the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System, each set of mechanics has a use based on knowing the right time, space, and energy. In the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System, the Hok Bong Sau and Ying Bong Sau exist as part of Kiu Sau knowledge and experience. Fundamentally typing, Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau puts the emphasis on developing the Hok Bong Sau while the Sei Dim Bun Kiu Sau puts the emphasis on developing the Ying Bong Sau.

Note: I write fundamentally above because you have to realize that the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System is a process of moving from Wandering to Awareness to Focus. Often, if you say “this is about that” you find out later that “this” connects to “these over here” and “didn’t think of thems yet” and that “that” was just one moment in time and can easily change to another moment in time, which opens a new logic flow. Until you have a fundamental grasp of “this” – which requires both technical knowledge as well as actual, physical interaction – trying to go further will only be an act of frustration because you’re not clear on “this” in the first place.

As an example of this, Grand Master Gee mentioned that to become a Chan Master or a Martial Arts Master you have to go through actual experience. Most people receive things or experience things at a surface level. To preserve the art and system, Instructors have to go beyond the surface to understand cause and impact. It is important to know the tool in the beginning but you have to have action. You might start out learning how to use a sword but once you have skill, even if you’re not holding a sword, you still have the ability to express your skill with anything in your hand – or even nothing in your hand! This is possible because at a high level, your mind is more aware and can influence your reality.

The emphasis for Saturday was mostly on learning the progression and logic flow of Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau from basic body mechanics to partner drilling. One of the key areas of focus was how to fully engage the body when punching by using the proper concept support. By the lunch break from 12:40 to 1:40, all the Saam Sin Jong Pre-Requisite Modules were complete and training the partner drills was ready to start. The whole group worked on the partner drills until 7:00 when it was time to break for dinner. After dinner, the group went back to the school at 10:30 for more discussion and cake – it was Grand Master Gee’s birthday celebration this past weekend as well. During the after-dinner discussion, Grand Master Gee asked individual instructors about their first experiences with the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System. John Murphy - one of the senior students – shared his initial expose to Grand Master Gee and the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System through his friend Mike. It was a real treat for all the new Instructor-Candidates to meet one of the long-time members of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun family. John Murphy shared many stories of his early days. Matt Kwan, another long-time student came out but couldn’t stay late as it was his wedding anniversary that night; he did make back on Sunday to participate, however.

Personally, I felt it was very fitting to have some of the senior students sharing a few of the many, many stories of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun family after the evening celebration of Grand Master Gee’s Birthday. What better way to show appreciate than by sharing meaningful experiences that only happened because of the common connection we all share – love for the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun System?

At 10:50, the group returned to Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau drilling. At the end of the evening, I was called up to the front to give a review of the day’s training. I hope that what I was able to put together made sense to all the workshop participants. To all participants: if there was anything I left out, please let me know. I think we were all on information overload that evening, still processing a lot of information – both technical knowledge as well as body mechanics. The day ended at 2:10 AM. We still had one more module to complete in the Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau for Sunday.

Sunday began at 10:00 AM with three repetitions of both Advanced Siu Nim Tau three times and section three. The rest of the morning was focused on training the Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau. There was further discussion of theory and detail to help participants gain a better understanding of the nature, logic, and progressions within the Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau block. At 1:30 we stopped for a lunch break.

The workshop continued at 2:48 with more Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau. Most of the workshop participants were staying until 6:00 PM Monday night so it was decided to focus on covering the entire module of Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau, which explains the amount of time devoted to training it.

Before moving to Ying Hok Bong Kiu Sau (aka Bong Laap Kiu Sau), everyone sat down and watched Sifu Brad Ryan and I performed about 10 minutes of Chi Sau vs. Kiu Sau. My personal background is in Chi Sau so it was a challenge for me to ignore my initial instincts and instead focus on using my forearm to control Brad’s bridges. In my previous Chi Sau training, there was not a lot of emphasis on using either the wrist or forearm – both were allowed to be used based on feeling, position, energy and leverage. I personally found that the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun focus on forearm training in Kiu Sau made a huge difference in application. When I kept Brad at a Kiu Sau timeframe, I could control him and felt safe from attack. However, Brad has very good Chi Sau skill and also managed put me into Chi Sau timeframes as well. I found that my own personal skill with Kiu Sau needs work as I wasn’t sure how to recover back to a Kiu Sau timeframe. Overall, I think the experience was a good one. I think it is useful for students to “mix it up” in a controlled energy format to see what is natural and what requires thought. Armed with my experience of Kiu Sau vs. Chi Sau, I have a new appreciation and understanding of Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau. Following the

We then started working on the first two stages of Module One in of Ying Hok Bong Kiu Sau, getting the initial mechanics correct. We stopped for dinner at 6:45 because an evening class was getting ready to start.

Sifu Andy Kalish and I had flights out on Sunday Evening so we went from the restaurant to the airport.

This concludes my review on the Instructor’s Training Weekend. I’ve read over my notes once so far and plan to start transcribing them tomorrow. I tried not to focus on technical details I experienced above as I don’t want to share too much of my own experience with everyone too early.

My next post will focus on the different categories of Kiu Sau in a general sense. In the meantime, everyone with experience in bridging exercises are encouraged to post on this thread. I understand that on Monday the workshop participants had more free exchange. I'd like to read more about that!

[Chango]

Man I wish I could have made it! it sounds like yet another rich experience with Sigung Gee and our wonderful kung fu family. I was there in spirit and thought. I really enjoy how clearly you express yourself. This post seems very vivid! Thanks for sharing!

Chango

[duende]

Hey Jeremy,

If I'm not mistaken, I think that Jung Sin Dan Chi Sau also needs to be thrown in the SLT certification somewhere as well. Also, maybe a distinction between Sei Bun Dim Kiu Sau and Saan Sing Jong Kiu sau??

Regardless of all that though, it was awesome to spend time with you and everyone else... But I'll post more on that later when I have more time.:D

Chango...

Yep... we missed ya! But the guys brought you up more than once... so your presence was felt.

Seems your quite the self-imposed official proclaimer of nicknames. ;)

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Here is some brief desciptions from three other systems, note that all the systems have bridge methods with forearm contact.

12 Kiu principles of Hung Kuen “The most fundamental and elementary usage of the bridge principle destroying the bridge of the opponent with the use of brute force. Utilizing the “gong/hard” bridge, fortified by extreme body connection and stance to crash through or collapse the bridge structure of an adversary. Other methods of the kiu are “leaking” through a strong bridge structure to gain advantage. This embodies the “yau/soft” bridge, which is more felt rather than seen. The preliminary accomplishments of stance, body connection, structural exactness and understanding of principle allow for a myriad of expressions in combat other than “hard” and “soft”, and are codified in the 12 bridge keywords of Hung Ga. www.hungga.net

Chi Sim Weng Chun makes use of a three line reference on the limbs to train and coordinate the body. These lines consist of the Wrist/Ankle, Elbow/Knee, and Shoulder/Hip. One of the primary exercises for training at the Wrist/Ankle line is known as Kiuh Sau, meaning Bridge Hand. This exercise only slightly resembles the more widely known Wing Chun exercise of Chi Sau. In Kiuh Sau, the partners engage each other with both hands at the same time. Each hand resembles a taan sau with the palm turned up. The hands can meet with one partner outside the other partner's hands or each partner with one hand inside and one hand outside the other. From the initial contact, both partners will train to manipulate the structure of the opponent while maintaining his or her own structure honing a keen sense of feel expressed in the concept of lo lau ho siung. These reactions can flow from kicking to striking to kuhm nah (joint-locking) to takedowns. www. wengchun.net.

Southern Praying Mantis makes use of yet another form of Kiu sau, “The style has 18 "hands" (hand techniques) that are taught individually (one by one) and then combined with the steps. Tactical operations of the hand include grappling, catching, holding, capturing, clasping with the forearms, slicing strikes with the knuckles, pressing with the elbow, sudden quick pushes with both hands, spearing with extended fingers, flicking of the hands in quick jabs, exploding fingers from the fists, jerking the opponent's arm, slicing and chopping with the edge of the palm, hooking and deflecting hands, elbow strikes, claw-like raking actions, and poking with the back of the hands. A single movement may contain several of these actions. Once contact is made there is no backing up or breaking apart. Each of the eighteen hands is a reaction to an action with the intent of each movement to make one deadly strike enough. ” -Written by F. Blanco
later...

[Damodardas108]

Sibaak Jeremy,

Sorry to have missed your association, nice post!


Your Ever Well Wisher,
Daniel

[pepe_li]

I would like to start off thanking GM Gee for the extensive knowledge he has openly shared with us this past weekend. I would also like to thank him for showing us one more layer of detail from when he previously visited us in Arizona.

Second, I would like to thank my Sifu Richard Loewenhagen for allowing me the opportunities to train not only with him, but with Sigung Meng and with Sitaaigung Gee. Truely this opportunity has never been presented in the past, so I feel very fortunate about the opportunities I have to learn.

So from the experiences that I had when we originally were shown the Kiu Sau Saam Sing Jong Faat, GM Gee gave some details as well as history. He then allowed us to grow for several months before attending this past weekends seminar. Upon arrival into the kwoon, we started with Si Nim Tau and began discussion on basic footworks and hand methods in order to introduce us to another layer of the Kiu Sau Saam Sing Jong Faat. Of course building body karma isn't always the easiest of things, however; based on the materials given and the level of detail that is expected in order to have this down will indeed take time.

Just introducing a new layer of the kiu sau platform allowed me to gain a deeper appriciation for bridging at the kiu rather then squaring up to my opponent at the chi sau timeframe. My experiences there and sharing different energies with my kung fu family gave me a better sense just exactly why I needed to learn the kiu. If I can prevent my opponent from jumping straight into a chi sau timeframe, I not only hold the advantage of staying out of his range, I also hold the advantage of employing more of my weapons on the battlefield and using tactics b/c of the range at which the kiu is most efficient. When learning that Kiu Sau Saam Sing Jong Faat not only allows me to cover my gates using 2 line theory, it also sets me up to understand how much of an offensive tool it is as well as a defensive tool.

I also was introduced into the structures of the HFY tan sau and how it uses structure energies. As played with other WC family members in the past (and demonstrations from other WC families at the seminar) the communities show their own sense of style or preference based on attributes and flow. Of course I'm not saying that flow is NOT important, or at times effective, but from what I was experiencing as well as seeing, there (like many other tools) are right timeframes to use tan sau and with the correct use of time, space and energy. Along with this experience, GM Gee showed us the use of the dragon's claw and the structure energy and correct timeframes to use it.

Again, when introducing or further elaborating on the Kiu Sau Saam Sing Jong Faat I experienced the nowhere to somewhere paradigm shift. Light bulbs clicked on here and there and things started to piece together. Like a puzzle, I start with learning the outside pieces, then gradually work my way to the middle. What I thought I knew originally from the KSSSJF was now taking it to a whole new level that blew my mind away. Again, showing how there are not only many different layers of learning, but the deep complexity but yet simple in nature (time, space & energy) of the HFY system.

On Monday we had the opportunity to work with GM Gee even more and gain more body karma in the KSSSJF. Earlier in the weekend he introduced a way to play around (per say) with the concept and tools to see if your body was in essence "waking up" By this I mean using the platform of flow and understanding our two line defenses. Adding all this together, we have the opportunity to test eachother out by searching for openings or "blind spots" or "inproper two line setup." Later on that day, GM Gee also discussed as well as reintroduced the Bong Laap Kiu Sau. Working specifically on teaching our bodies to use the bong laap as well as seeing how NOT to use the bong laap. Again reverting back to discussions of who's bong sau is correct and not correct. HFY stands on the side of both, b/c we deal with the timeframe given for the different types of bong sau.

Overall, I came away with such a greater understanding than when I was first introduced to KSSSJF. My awareness of my blind spots and two line theories increased. My ability to see that the two major types of footwork and how we enter an opponent using one of the two types. We were also exposed to the follow up stepping, which is different than the two major types of footwork. We have to understand NOT the tool or action, but yet the function and results.

I cannot express how much I have appriciated this great opportunity as well as the priviledge. I do want to throw out a disclaimer. Its late (approx 2am and if I sounded a bit redundant, I hope I got my point across) :D

I hope there is feedback to what I wrote, and of course this is not all we covered, but I will be able to get into greater depth once my brain has had a chance to rest from the stresses of month end in the business place.

Thank you again and may we all share a common ground together (we are all learning)

[sauchi]

Speaking about Kiu Sau....

I recently was looking at another style. It was called Sil Lum Fut Ga. One of the componet contributers to Choy Lit Fut came from Sil Lum Fut Ga which is the "Fut" section.

After having watch them train and demonstrate, it looked a little like HFY WC without the angle and the referrence points. (Well OK not a lot) but its Sil Lum background and our HFY sil lum background showed some kiu sao common ground.

I saw them using their tools for training, and I thought interesting they are doing this but if they had our angle or gate coverage then they could fill their holes.

Fut Ga doesn't have kiu sao as we know it to be nor do they call it kiu sau but it is part of their training curriculum. Plus they don't have rolling but rather two man sets that I saw. I might not have seen the entire picture of Fut Ga but I can see their Sil lum ancestory from what I know of our Sil Lum heritage taught to me by Sifu Gee.

Hopefully we discover other families with Kiu Sao and compare what we do and know to what they know and perhaps we can, as Pepe Li said, find common ground.