Review Discussion: 2006 Southwest Wing Chun Gathering

[RedRebel]

I enjoyed the Gathering and meeting everyone. I appreciated everyone's welcoming attitude. Everyone I chi sao'ed and spoke with seem to display the true spirit of brotherhood. It was great to meet the many different lineages represented at the Gathering. From members of the WT to HFY to Chu Sau Lei to Tucson Ving Tsun to AWCA to Wing Chun Alliance to Moy Yat and anyone else's lineage I forgot to mention.

[RedRebel]

Thanks also for listening to me speak. I look forward to next year's Gathering!

[pepe_li]

Hey RedRebel,

I also enjoyed the opportunity to touch hands with other WC lineages. I appriciate the time you took out of your schedule to come to AZ and enjoy this gathering with us. Thank you again for your promotional speach to spread the word of your foundation. I wish you luck in your endeavours. Hope to see everyone there again next year.

Respectfully,

[Jonathan_AZ]

Hello!

It was a pleasure to meet you adam, as it was the other attendants from the various families that came to the gathering.
I hope it was a good experience for all as much as it was for me. It was a great expereince being able to see WC through other practitioner's eyes, mouths and hands :)
Hope to see you next year, and good luck with the all the hard work you are putting into the foundation (as well as the Teahouse magazine)!

Jonathan

[RedRebel]

Thanks guys.

Would love to hear any other reviews of the Gathering or personal experiences. Likes/Dislikes. Ways to improve future events/what you'd like to see next year, etc.

[Cang Long]

In total agreement with everyone that posted so far the large turnout was nice to see. Sifu Don Gross is to be commended for doing a stand up job of getting the people out there and then all those in attendence really got into the spirit of the event when they were doing their demos or communicating and sharing one on one as we all moved around exchanging information and ideas individually. Personally I thought the certificates was a neat idea and unexpected nice touch on the part of the host now as this does grow mabey others will pick it up like Sifu Gross hopes and different families will take ownership of sponosring the event each year.

The event keeps getting better and better and their was even talk of expanding. Seems once we are all more familiar with one another as a group the less work it will be for Sifu Gross or others and the more prepared each group will be to share and demo more and more information and ideas. The event is growing and gaining momentum in a positive way, so Congratulations to all that were in attendence. Looking forward to bigger and better things in the future.

[Azwingchun]

I also must say that this gathering had a little different feel with each school showing their way of combat or applications. The past two gatherings just forms were shared. Though I think I would still like to see the form demos continued in the gatherings to come.

Adam I didn't really get a chance to speak to you very much other than an introduction.....but I have to thank you and the others that were willing to make the trip out here.

[TAYLOR]

A special thanks goes to Sifu Grose for putting the gathering together. Also to Adam for coming and sharing his foundation and Teahouse magazine efforts. Good luck on both endeavours.

I would like to see more demos regarding forms as Sifu Widener mentioned.

Again,

Thanks to everyone,

Taylor

[pepe_li]

Hello to all,

I would agree with Sifu Widener and Taylor, I would love to see each families demonstrations. I find it interesting how their forms interact with their applications. Again, a big thanks to Sifu Grose for his quick efforts to pull this together. Hopefully, there will be more cooperation in the future from other officials as far as locations :)

[Op108wc]

Check it out...

Shaolin Chi sau gathering

http://www.namyang.co.uk/martial-arts-clubs/index.php

[duende]

Hello to all!


From someone who did not actually attend the April 2006 AZ Wing Chun Gathering, let me just say that It's truly great to hear about what a success it was. Sounds like I missed out on a great deal of positive exchange of knowledge and experience between the many different WC families that attended.

Gatherings such as this represent not only an ideal way for our WC families to come together and build strong ties, but also a great opportunity for personal growth through interaction with others outside our immediate learning environment.

I've had the pleasure of seeing Sifu Phil Bradley's online pictures of the attendees, presentations, as well as some hands-on trading of energy in the form of friendly Chi Sao. My brother's who attended also shared with me some of their experiences, and made note of how attendees were in general nothing but honorable, courteous and respectful towards each other, and the intent of the gathering itself.

The tradition of honor and respect established between particpants by our Kung Fu Culture at meetings such as these is paramount. It dictates that personal vendettas and conflicts be put aside so that peaceful interaction and exchange of ideas between Martial Arts schools can flourish and thrive.

Personal agendas to either prove one's skill and/or their schools credentials either require temperament towards positive exchange and sharing, or they should be saved for a fighting tournament and San Da ring. Of course one can not deny the inherent competitive nature that will always be a part of rival schools. However, it is vital that certain rules of conduct be maintained, otherwise friendship gatherings and seminars can no longer exist.

This is why is was disturbing to hear about the actions of Dave McKinnon towards Savi Krouch. And let it be known, that my intent here is not to promote an internet flame war or to tarnish the success of the 2nd AZ WC Gathering with WC politics. It is important however that the WC community be aware of such inappropriate behaviors so they may be addressed and truly seen for what they are. Only then can they be eliminated and thereby assure future success of these WC Friendship Gatherings.



"Friendly Chi Sao"

The purpose of friendly Chi Sao is so that students can come together from different schools, touch hands, and learn about themselves and their partner through an exchange of energy that is restrained so that no one gets hurt.

Participants are instructed to roll three times safely before any attack movement or exchange is attempted in order to make certain firstly that a Chi Sao platform is established.

Sifu Don Gross made it clear at the first gathering that these were the ground rules. These rules have long been established in the WC community as the traditional Chi Sao rules at every WC friendship gathering and seminar. In fact they are also followed strictly in Chi Sau Tournaments.

So therefore, Dave McKinnon's action of immediately committing an eye strike at the very beginnings of barely touching hands with Savi, demonstrates a clear disregard for the fundamental base of mutual respect and honor that brought all the WC schools together.

Dave Mckinnon claims he was unaware of these rules. But we know better as he followed them clearly at the Ohio Friendship Seminar in 2002 (where he Chi Sao's with Savi the first time), as well as the Los Angeles Friendship Workshop later on.

And let's not forget, Dave Mckinnon also had 2 and a half hours at the AZ Gathering PRIOR to his rolling with Savi within which to pick up on the rules that EVERYONE ELSE followed.

In fact he followed the rules with other members of our organization. Some of them had pleasant exchanges with him as well.

So why did he not follow the rules with Savi? Why did he continue to go immediately into San Da two more times after Savi brought to his attention that Dave was NOT complying with the accepted Chi Sao platform? (Which by the way was witnessed by many attendees including those not from our organization)

The reason can only be personal vendetta and/or WC political agenda. Both of which obviously have no place at a friendship gathering!

In short..


When a WC man asks to do Chi Sau at a WC Friendship Gathering an honorable WC man complies with Chi Sau and respects the traditions and ground rules laid out by the organizers of the event.

When a WC man asks to do Chi Sau but instead does San Da... there exists the problem.



Looking forward to the next seminar,

Alex

[Cang Long]

Dave Mckinnon claims he was unaware of these rules. But we know better as he followed them clearly at the Ohio Friendship Seminar in 2002 (where he Chi Sao's with Savi the first time), as well as the Los Angeles Friendship Workshop later on. SibakGung,
In fact there were some complaints from the Wing Chun Do, practitioners in attendance at that seminar. Wing Chun Do is believed to be an offshoot of what Bruce Lee originally intended to create before JKD. At this time we were at a Kiu Sau Seminar and the complaints were that David was going around trying to chi sau with these genuine people who had come in quite a large group to enjoy the HFY teaching provided by our Grandmaster. Yet when it was time to partner up and do the kiu sau drills it was reported that David was trying to chi sau with everyone he came in contact with and made it hard for the others to work on the kiu sau drills. As I recall both Allen and Savi had to instruct him several times to stay within the bounds of the drills.

A lot of different families drill kiu sau unlike HFY kiu sau which is very precise and specific yet when we returned from the seminar David McKinnon gave a review on how the terminology may be different but his group had the same things that were discussed in the seminar. Which reminds me how Robert Chu copied the white board in SF HFY hdqrts and posted it on his web site. Then his other student tried to say that those are common in every wing chun family.

If David is teaching kiu sau similiar to HFY he is teaching it out of order because after talking with his student his student was unaware of how to express kiu sau but he did practice chi sau. What David McKinnon does and what he says has long been known to be 2 seperate things from my experiences.

[Op108wc]

Savi would like to clarify some things about the latest 3rd Arizona Wing Chun Gathering hosted by Sifu Don Grose.


http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1689

[Savi]

Thanks Op108wc! The redirect link was a good "internet" Taan Sau for traffic. Covered the upper gate and everything!

HA! :)

Peace,
Savi.

[RedRebel]

I had a blast at the 2006 Gathering. This was my first Gathering and it was the best time I've had in long time! The idea of a Wing Chun Gathering is one of the coolest ideas around.

One of the biggest reasons I went was become of Savi's great review of the 2004 event. However, this incident between Savi and Dave has now become the story of the 2006 Gathering. If I would have read about this year's incident, instead of the 2004 Review, I would have never made the trip. Although I still should go, I wouldn't have. I never would have had such a great time and met some great new friends.

That's why its so important to emphasize the success of the 2006 Gathering in Arizona. Aside from this incident, there is a lot to be proud of to tell others that didn't get to attend. I understand more people and more Wing Chun lineages participated in this year's Gathering. We need to focus on this success more than anything else.

[duende]

Adam,

Agreed, we should focus on the success. It is important however that everyone not simply distance themselves from the incident either.

Everyone deserves the right to have a blast of a good time at a WC Friendship Gathering, that so many good people like yourself worked so hard to create.

Personally, I am of the belief that the next one will go smooth once again, and look forward to it!

Regards,

Alex

:)

[RedRebel]

True.

[Op108wc]

For photos of the event, please see Phil Bradley's review at http://awcaonline.com/events/2006/gathering_2006.html. Phil runs the Arizona Wing Chun Association.

This is my personal review and account of the seminar last weekend:
Dave McKinnon
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=294&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

This is Savi’s review and account of the seminar last weekend:
http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1689

[Cang Long]

Personally, I am of the belief that the next one will go smooth once again, and look forward to it! Alex,
Cound not agree more. :)

[Eric]

Hello everyone,

Sorry it's taken so long for my write-up, I've been extremely busy with work and training!


I would first like to thank all the attendees, and I'm glad to see that we're getting more and different lineages to come together. It speaks really well of our host, Sifu Don Grose, that the event is taking root and beginning to grow. I would also like to express my gratitude for those who took the time to touch hands with me: Adam, Devon, Julian, Frank, Fisal, Sifu Phil Bradley, Erik, and Brett. If I forgot anyone, i apologize; my memory isn't the best with names.

I found the opening discussions of how each family would engage a basic jab to be eye opening. Even with my experiences in Yip Man wing chun, it's clear that i don't have the same picture as other people do. However, I felt that several people were put 'on the spot' by how the explanations were set up. A constructive criticism I have would be to post somewhere public as to what topic would be discussed ahead of time. This would have given several representatives more time to formulate a complete answer that conveys how their style works rather than just having to fly by the seat of their pants. Overall though, it was a great thing to see; we don't always pick up the difference by just watching forms!

During Chi sao, I had several mixed experiences, stemming from the fact that we all had a different baseline for how to play chi sao. Several schools reset to a starting position after getting to a point where a heavy impact strike can be delievered, while others just keep going reguardless. I'm not saying one or the other is correct, but I think it would be wise for each pairing to clarify how things work before we just launch into free-flow. That's something else I would also like to see noted at the next gathering: we need a little more structure.

On a personal positive note, there's one thing that i took away that I should really work on for next year: Faan Sao - Following Hand - I found that many of my strikes were not followed by my horse, so they became long fisted strikes. While i still 'got the hit' I'd rather have 3-4 strikes for all that trouble. :D

One thing I would like to see next year is something that I discussed with Sifu Grose: Expanding the gathering to all different types of Kung Fu. While it's excellent that we're seeing how different wing chun works, it's also nice to compare ideas with people who have completely different mindsets. This is not neccessarily a 'next year' suggestion, but in the next few perhaps.


Thanks again for everyone who attended and participated; I hope to see you all again next year!


~Eric

[RedRebel]

Thanks for the post and the feedback, Eric. Its exactly the kind of constructive criticism I think we need to improve upon the gathering for next year.

P.S. I enjoyed the time we had to work together. Hope the Bagua is going well.

[t_niehoff]

Originally posted by Cang Long
A lot of different families drill kiu sau unlike HFY kiu sau which is very precise and specific yet when we returned from the seminar David McKinnon gave a review on how the terminology may be different but his group had the same things that were discussed in the seminar. Which reminds me how Robert Chu copied the white board in SF HFY hdqrts and posted it on his web site. Then his other student Terence tried to say that those are common in every wing chun family.

Tony,

I missed this post that referenced me, so once again, I'd request that you delete any references to me.

FWIW, I **did not** say that these things -- or anything for that matter -- is common or present in every wing chun "family." I said these things were present in the art of wing chun kuen, and some people -- teachers or practitioners -- either explicitly or implicitly recognize them. My perspective is that the art of WCK, which exists only in application, transcends lineages or families.

Terence

[Cang Long]

FWIW, I **did not** say that these things -- or anything for that matter -- is common or present in every wing chun "family." I said these things were present in the art of wing chun kuen, and some people -- teachers or practitioners -- either explicitly or implicitly recognize them. My perspective is that the art of WCK, which exists only in application, transcends lineages or families. T.
No doubt you are an idividual separate from your teacher but as long as Robert Chu is or was your teacher there will exist times when you can not disassociate yourself from that fact. In this case lets just say that it looks and sounds like a duck when. "These things" described by Robert as The five main principles of wing chun are central to the art's effectiveness in self defense. and he has articles dating as far back as 1991 yet the things he describes as central to the art's effectiveness he didn't publish until 1999.

Robert also has this to sayIn wing chun kuen, the term bai jong is often translated as "on-guard, ready position" or as "pre-combat position." None of these translations do the term justice. Bai is the Chinese word for "put, place, arrange, assume," while jong is a "stake, a pile, or a vertical structure." Thus, when combined, bai jong is a wing chun term referring to the assuming of structure in relationship to your opponent, making the necessary adjustments to favor advantage for yourself. Your body structure is dynamic, always seeking to adjust relative to your opponent. It is ever changing with pressure, position, timing, and sensitivity. You are always making adjustments (perhaps another good translation for the name "wing chun").

In all martial arts, there is some sort of pre-fighting position or on-guard stance that practitioners assume before engaging their opponent. Some of these positions are open, others are closed. Bai jong in wing chun is different. It is used as a reference point, not as a fighting posture. One adopts a non-verbal readiness to receive an attack. The really funny part of this is when hendrik chimes in to say this about bai jong...originally posted by hendrik
IE: one time I explain how a series of Kyokushin low round kicks can break the Bai Jong type of CMA stuffs. Because those BaiJong Stuffs doesnt work most of the time in Bangkok or Tokyo. So you have your reasons for why you think Robert published what he did in 1999 and others have theirs just as it seems Robert is now closer to the meaning of bai jong because of what he did and hendrik well he just makes people laugh with his opinions.

Quite understandable why you would want your named removed so yes it will be removed.

[t_niehoff]

Originally posted by Cang Long
T.
No doubt you are an idividual separate from your teacher but as long as Robert Chu is or was your teacher there will exist times when you can not disassociate yourself from that fact. In this case lets just say that it looks and sounds like a duck when. "These things" described by Robert as and he has articles dating as far back as 1991 yet the things he describes as central to the art's effectiveness he didn't publish until 1999.

Please understand, I'm not trying to "disassociate" myself from anyone; I'm merely trying to explain -- as I've done numerous times in the past -- that **for me** having someone as a WCK instructor is akin to having a personal fitness trainer. The personal trainer serves me, not the other way round (and it is the same with the art). And this the relationship I have with my "students". FWIW, this is one of the big problems with the traditional martial arts IMO: they are sifu-oriented or dogma/material-oriented or both. Whereas with a personal trainer, and most modern forms of training, the relationship is client-oriented. Robert was my personal trainer. As such, he provided invaluable help to me in furthering *my* goal of developing *my* WCK. Do personal fitness trainers have lineages and families? ;)


Robert also has this to say The really funny part of this is when hendrik chimes in to say this about bai jong... So you have your reasons for why you think Robert published what he did in 1999 and others have theirs just as it seems Robert is now closer to the meaning of bai jong because of what he did and hendrik well he just makes people laugh with his opinions.

Quite understandable why you would want your named removed so yes it will be removed.

I'm not really interested in getting into these petty arguments. All I will say is that as **I** view it, the curriculum is not WCK -- and discussions on whose curriculum is "better" or who has this or that, or lacks this or that, or "stole" this or that, is meaniningless dribble. Everyone IMO that **practices** WCK has "bai jong", in some form or another, whether they call it that or not. The term is even prevalent throughout WCK (and other arts), appearing in some of the first books on WCK. So does HFY "own" that term? Has it, like Leung Ting, copyrighted it? ;)

Should you begin to really see WCK as existing only in application, then lineage, families, curriculums, and all these things will have little interest for you, and you'll accept that WCK transcends all of that. And, you may come to understand why I don't want my name dragged into this nonsense and why I don't want to be misquoted. Thanks for deleting my name. I hope one day to meet you on the other side. :)

Terence

[RedRebel]

Can you take the discussion of these "points of concern" to another thread? I'd like to reserve this thread for the 2006 Southwest Wing Chun Gathering and how we can improve upon the event next year.

Thanks guys.