Chy Sau - Grinding Arm

[Cynikal Mantis]

Chy Sau - Grinding Arm

This is an informatitive piece writen by Sifu Ip Chee Keung, who is a student of our grandmaster Yip Shui. It is a thorugh explanation of chy sau and is better than any I could come up with:-

Chy sau is one of the trademarks of the Chow Gar system. It is a partnered resistance-training and power building exercise, however, there is much more to it than meets the eye. Chy sau builds and tests your stanceworks, teaches you to release power without using the body and is a form of sensitivity training.

Like everything in the Southern Mantis System, every detail has to be correct, any minor deviation can negate the benefits of the training, and can actually be harmful to your health. This is why it is important to train with an experienced Sifu, who will guide you and correct you, and who will take an interest in the well being of his students. It is this need for guidance, which enables us to present various aspects of this secretive style on the internet. Without guidance, you will never understand the aims and the subtleties of the art. In addition, we urge you to not be tempted to try these training methods without a genuine Sifu, as you may sustain injury.

Chy sau involves resistance along very specific lines, in a very specific way, in order to develop the tendons and the 'Chi' energy. The student works on developing power at a distance from the body, generated at the ends of the arms and in the hands. This is cold the 'hanging power'. At first, there is no power at the end of the arm, and the student will be tempted to use the strength which he or she already possesses in the body. However, it is better to realise that you do not have the correct strength, and work hard to achieve it, than to cheat, and train an incorrect line for the sake of not appearing weak compared to your training partner.

Over time, the tendons surrounding the arm will become tight and strong, allowing you to generate piercing short-range strikes in various directions. This power is what makes Chow Gar Mantis such an effective and well-respected system. When delivered to a general area of the body, the power of these strikes is devastating. When delivered to nerve-points and vulnerable areas, as intended, the power can be extremely dangerous and possibly lethal. This is why a genuine Sifu will judge the character of his students over a period of time before giving them the keys which allow them to unlock the Shock power of the system.

If trained incorrectly, Chy sau will only result in the generation of large muscles in the arm and around the shoulder. Being an internal system, such muscles, although strong, are not effective in delivering short-range strikes. If the emphasis is placed upon building these, the Chi will not reach the hands, and the shock-power will never be achieved.

[mario bava]

Hello Cynikal Mantis

Very interesting article. I get what you mean when the Sifu mentioned how trying to copy this sort of stuff just from internet writings is crazy and a waste of time - Hou Chuen San Sao is the Wing Chun method of teaching, and it seems that Chow Gar indeed employs this truth in its own unique fashion. It seems then that Chow Gar will allow the student to develop a very strong and alive bridge. The article mentioned 'specific lines' - is it possible for more info on those, only if you feel it is appropriate of course!!
Thanks very much for that info Cynikal Mantis. I see you are not so far away from myself and Ireland, maybe we'll meet some time in the future for a friendly chat.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Cynikal Mantis]

When practicing chy sau we start with the left arm, the training partner also puts out the left arm and we touch wrist to wrist. From there If you could imagine a `box` say 5 inches out from left shoulder to 5 inches out from partners right shoulder, acroos their chest 5 inches out from left shoulder, to 5 inches out from my right shoulxdr back to my left.We would start at my right shoulder, Then a constant force is between each wrist, so when I push my arm along the `box`across my chest to my left shoulder he is resisting me then push fowards to his right shoulder still resisting me, he then would push me across his chest to his left with me resisting him then back to my right. We do this till we feel tired and then switch arm (1 set), we do this 3 times. In the begining when you start it is quite difficulft and you using your arm but as you progress you will just push with your wrist,back and body when comfortable doing this it feels like a massage, the elbow is almost immovable and more or less stays in the same place........ Hope this makes sence. where abouts in ireland????

[mario bava]

Hey CM

How are you doing? Hope all's well. I can get a mental picture of that training alright, thanks very much. I'm in the north, about 45 odd miles short of Belfast. There is a Mantis Sifu from Hong Kong currently living over here, I must do a little digging and find out some details about him. The Mantis style is very low-key over here as I think the Sifu is not overly interested in making a big deal about advertising or using it to make some money. I was reading one of your other posts about systems in the UK generally and it is true that while Wing Chun is popular, it looks as if there are many more Chinese systems here in Ireland and the UK than meets the eye.
From your post, it seems that the SPM guy will end up with very powerful arms even from that drill alone. Is that right enough CM? Let me know.

Cheerio, Gary

[sauchi]

Hey Cynikal Mantis,


From what I have been training in the HFY Wing Chun system which is quite different in the modern day wing chun because the HFY system in the advance level in biu jee level, we have something called Dip Jee Gung training which trains our Kiu Sau in a like a grinding method like what you described for the Southern Praying Mantis.

I think that one of the reasons for this is because I believe that all southern gung fu methods share the common ancestors which is Southern Shaolin Temple and held the same purpose which was to fight off the Manchus and restore the Ming.

[Cynikal Mantis]

Hey Mario

We do end up with very stong arms sort of like rubber. did you say you are a wing chun practioner?

[Cynikal Mantis]

Hey Sauchi

I agree with you about southern systems linked as you may of read in one of my previous posts wing chun and SPM did exchange knowledge

[Cang Long]

I agree with you about southern systems linked as you may of read in one of my previous posts wing chun and SPM did exchange knowledge Cynikal,
Isn't it just more likely that as southern shaolin systems they just naturally share some common knowledge.

[Cynikal Mantis]

I agree but still understand that granmasters did exchange knowledge from our oral history

[Cang Long]

Ok I was unaware that you were speaking of your own personal families oral history.

[Cynikal Mantis]

You never know I could be wrong you know how stories get diluted in time sort of like chinese whispers, hey maybe thats where that term came from???

[mario bava]

Hello Cynikal Mantis

How are you? Yep, I used to be an instructor in Yip Man Wing Chun and now am teaching and practicing Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun here in Ireland. Thanks for the info about the SPM, it is wonderful to hear of differing systems and their methods. Chinese Wispers - yeah, there are plenty of them about, but one wisper seems to amount to more than that - that the goal of the system practitioners was to act in rebellion against the foreign invader.

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[sauchi]

Hello Cynikal Mantis,

I think that Mantis has awesome explosive power, if I weren't training HFY wingchun, I would have probably have looked for a SPM school to train in.

Do you have a website to send me to? I wouldn't mind looking at some SPM material.

Sauchi

[Cynikal Mantis]

Hey mario

Please dont think im ignorant I know little about wing chun, whats the different between the styles???

[Cynikal Mantis]

SPM has explosive stikes from `shock power` this is an amazing feat I am yet to aquire, I have felt it though and I can say its amazing, Il get my sifu to write a peice on it and post it up later..... I will also look up some sites. In the mean time check out our home page!

[Op108wc]

Hello there


Originally posted by Cynikal Mantis
Hey mario

Please dont think im ignorant I know little about wing chun, whats the different between the styles???


My First Learning Experience Under Grandmaster Garrett Gee

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1196&perpage=15&pagenumber=1


VTM
http://home.vtmuseum.org/

[Cynikal Mantis]

Very intresting makes me wanna learn wing chun!!! I was going to find a kwoon when I started looking but it was so vast, so many kwoons so I went in a different direction. Maybe If I started talking to you guys before it would of made things easier.

[Cang Long]

Very intresting makes me wanna learn wing chun!!! I was going to find a kwoon when I started looking but it was so vast, so many kwoons so I went in a different direction. Maybe If I started talking to you guys before it would of made things easier. Seems like there is interest going both ways. Like you say the information shared is probably what causes this query among both practitioners.

[Cynikal Mantis]

What do you think about learning 2 arts at once? Maybe get to a high level in one style then start a next. I personally belive in emptying ones cup before filling it. .......:eek:

[mario bava]

Hello Cynikal Mantis

How are you doing? Hope all's well.

Ah come on now, you can't let the cat half way out of the bag? Who are these Wing Chun guys of which you speak?! I know, you can't say, but think about it, eh? ;)
Your question about difference between Wing Chun styles is a very good one. Simple as this Cynikal, when I used to train the Yip Man Wing Chun, it was great stuff. It was powerful, easy to learn, and genuinely good for scraping. One thing about those days was that out of the group of 5 or 6 of my Sihingdai that were teaching, all were brilliant and fought in their own particular way, which made it cool to learn from them. When I found out about Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun I saw that this was the only system I had ever seen where personal preference didn't come into it, and that the Hung Fa Yi man doesn't do what he prefers, but rather does something we refer to as 'the right thing at the right time'. This was so shocking to me that only by reading the pages of a book co-authored by GM Gee, I realised that over 7 years of training in the Yip Man Wing Chun could not compare with what I had read in the book. This was all before I even got to 'put the hand on' Hung Fa Yi. I'm telling you honestly CM, having trained in Yip Man for the 7 or so years, there is no comparison. I honestly would advise any man that if he wishes to get a look at Wing Chun, visit GM Gee and get a look at Hung Fa Yi.
Anyway, I'm very interested in reading and learning about the SPM. It is genuinely wonderful to read about the serious martial knowledge of that system, so keep the info flowing CM!!!

Cheerio, Gary

www.hungfayiireland.com

[Cynikal Mantis]

Hey Mario

How are you? Is it sunny in Ireland cos its blazin in England!!!!!
Thanks for your encouraging words and Im not goin anywhere gonna keep posting. Is the diffrence between Ip Man and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun different like Chow gar and say Jook Lum being the same `mother` style (SPM) but just sub styles?

[tonglong]

Originally posted by Cynikal Mantis
Chy Sau - Grinding Arm

This is an informatitive piece writen by Sifu Ip Chee Keung, who is a student of our grandmaster Yip Shui. It is a thorugh explanation of chy sau and is better than any I could come up with:-



He is more than a student of GM Yip Shui, he is his son and now the GM of the system when the title was handed to him in 2002 in Hong Kong at GM Yip Shui's birthday.

An article on the birthday can be found here:-

http://www.btinternet.com/~pfeifer/kungfu/int.htm

[tonglong]

The purpose of Chy Sao is to the bring the power away from the body and into the bridge (arm).In this exercise the shoulder is as far forward as possible and dropped down , with the chest as far in as possible. This is very important, even bringing the shoulder back will feels more natural it causes one to use the strength and power of the body, and not developing power in the bridge.

Each movement within Chy Sao has the elbow pointing down towards the floor, the hands in a tightly closed fist position pointing up and the wrists always remaining straight at all times (this helps build all parts / joints / muscles on the forearms, fingers, grip)


In chy sao there is / should be constant power being used (tension). This power is relaxed and fluid, its intensity should flow and change at all times.

In practise, constant tension is avoided and the partners work together, its not a competition. The training is done with each helping the other, correcting each other - working together.
Tension refers to the power that is contained within the arm, strength is the power that works against your partners arm, and thus leaves the body.

Chy sau builds the stance. The stance is seated at all times, gripping to prevent body movements when using power. Gripping of the stance is never constant, both moves from Ying and Yang, tension and relaxation.

Chy sau builds the waist. The waist is fixed into the stance and not allowed to move independently. This prevents the swaying of the body back and forth or to the sides giving the 'illusion' of more power.

It is common during Chy Sao that the opposite shoulder should want to move back and the leading arm pushed further forward, this is another way of giving the illusion of power.

Both shoulders are constantly pushed forward - this helps round the back and keep the body straight and the centre of balance. The 'other' arm (not the leading one) grips the waist or in front of the dan tien. When gripping the waist it is the 'side' of the waist that should be gripped and not the front section. This way you can feel your deep breathing and tension of the waist / dan tien.


Chy sau tests your posture (which is always maintained), balance, stance (as doing this exercise is very demanding and tiring and under pressure its hard to stay to correct form).

Chy Sau also is fundamental in building the "powers" I listed in the other post and helping to develop iron shirt / body (one example is the gritting on the teeth, tension of the neck, tongue up on palette - to build strength in head/ jaw area).

There is more to say...but this is only brief, hope it gives some insight.

[Cang Long]

The purpose of Chy Sao is to the bring the power away from the body and into the bridge (arm).In this exercise the shoulder is as far forward as possible and dropped down , with the chest as far in as possible. This is very important, even bringing the shoulder back will feels more natural it causes one to use the strength and power of the body, and not developing power in the bridge. tonglong,
Do you use chy sau as a training instrument only or would you consider it a form of controlled sparring?

[tonglong]

hi CL,

it is only used as a training, power / body building building / testing exercise. It shouldnt be confused with chi sau or any kind of sticky hands fighting. This is just a constant grinding arm exercise.

Perhaps i may be able to post a video clip of the exercise sometime.

[sauchi]

Tong Long,

I would love to see the video so I can see what exactly you are talking about with the shoulders and the waist.

I know that you give great description but seeing helps alot too.

Sauchi

[Cang Long]

it is only used as a training, power / body building building / testing exercise. It shouldnt be confused with chi sau or any kind of sticky hands fighting. This is just a constant grinding arm exercise. tonglong,
ok that is what I was doing did not know the spelling was significant to the meaning in this case thank you for the clarification, like sauchi said the video would be a welcome addition to this forum for sure.

[tonglong]

Hi,

I will try to get the clip online this weekend and i think the post will make more sense and help with the visulisation of the exercise. :).

[tonglong]

As promised a video clip of chy sau being taught -

http://www.tonglong.co.uk/index.php?categoryid=127

the site needs a very quick sign up to view the clips and download the articles.

Enjoy!

[Cang Long]

tonglong,
Thanks for the post can't get to the clips just yet but will come back and reply again a little later today. Thanks again.

[sauchi]

Thank you Tonglong,

I keep looking at the video over and over.
I feel like I just got a free lesson. :D :D

Send in some more, you just might convert me j/k.

the commute from SF would kill me every week.

Thank you again.

I have a question for you and well anyone, have you ever used your Mantis on someone else?

And if so what were your results?

Sauchi

[tonglong]

haha, yea it is pretty much like a free lesson, but i thought i would upload something that has some explanation, provides better insight!

Good question, hard to say...any art can provide you with the tools / techniques to be effective. I think the important thing is training those in fighting / committed sparring and being able to use those in real time against real opponents. None of what we do would be of real use or application unless we tried to train it to use it i think.

With mantis, the bridge (all with everything else) gets very strong and 'heavy' and well conditioned, coupled with the phoenix eye strikes and fast movements aimed at the vital points.

The arms just crush through and any part of the arm / body can be used to strike as a weapon.

I spar as much as I can and am still learning. Its not easy! Just trying to test myself and get used to using my art more against other people.

If you like i can post some clips up of some techniques we train.

[sauchi]

That would be GREAT if you could post more clips!!!

You know what I have noticed is that when people are training in a peticuluar style is that there are distinctions or characteristics that make it what it is like movements or postering. Like Monkey style looking like a monkey or praying mantis looking somewhat like a mantis, even wing chun people loose the look when entering the ring.

People revert back to kick boxing which is OK. But then they are doing kick boxing not the art they practiced.

I know that its not like watching an old Shaw Brothers Movie but shouldn't we show some type of resemblence or techniques that we learned from the style.

I have been thinking about this. Mixed martial arts is a big trend while traditional martial arts is fading into the background.

Anyways I can wait for the next free LESSON!!!

Sauchi

[tonglong]

ahh thats a great subject to discuss....something im discussing on another forum too.

pm me your email addy and i'll send you some links.l

[tonglong]

dude sent you an email, bit late, sorry!