Sifu Cheng Kwong

[Maurilio]

Sifu Cheng Kwong is teaching the “Cheng Kwong Ving Tsun” in Hongkong again!!!


We are very happy to announce, that Sifu Cheng Kwong from is now accepting (teaching) Kung Fu students after a pause of nearly 20 years!


In 1988 Sifu Cheng Kwong stopped teaching Kung Fu, instead choosing to concentrate on his profession as a chiropractor.
We are very happy that Sifu Cheng Kwong is again starting to teach and we wish him a very great success!
He is teaching is own Kung Fu creation “Cheng Kwong Ving Tsun”, which is a complementary mixture of Ving Tsun, Weng Chun-elements and Dragon Style Kung Fu.

Weng Chun Grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann and Sifu Cheng Kwong are connected through decades of a long intensive relationship, as he was Andreas Hoffmann’s first teacher in China.
Sifu Cheng Kwong introduced Andreas Hoffmann to the Ving Tsun, Weng Chun, Tai Chi, Hsing I, Pakua, Dragon Style and the Tong Bei system.
Paramount to this he also introduced Andreas Hoffmann to the Weng Chun grandmasters Wai Yan and Pak Cheung, who accepted Andreas Hoffmann as their private student and made him over numerous years of private lessons a grandmaster in Weng Chun!
With this generosity they gave the complete Weng Chun system to Andreas Hoffmann, who since that time has concentrated intensely on the Weng Chun system and is today focused on passing Weng Chun on to the next generation, continuing the great tradition of his sigungs GGM Wai Yan and GGM Pak Cheung.

Today, there still exists a very close contact between Sifu Cheng Kwong and grandmaster Andreas Hoffmann, a contact consisting of deep gratefulness and great respect.

We wish Sifu Cheng Kwong all the best in his re-established teaching, and we hope he will find a virtuous successor for his Kung Fu style, “Cheng Kwong Ving Tsun”.

For those interested in taking private lessons from Sifu Cheng Kwong in Hongkong, they may contact the Weng Chun headquarter in Bamberg in order to get contact details.


International Weng Chun Kung Fu Association - Sifu Andreas Hoffmann

www.wengchun.com

[Op108wc]

For anyone who is interested in reading it.


Originally posted by Shen (WCK.com)

Here is a post from the VT4um here in The Netherlands;

"Dear nicobra,
i have to correct you on this one,cheng kwong reopend his school several years ago! my sihing freddy lee who moved back to hong kong has been studying by him for the last two years.
yes sifu cheng kwong teaches vingtsun but also wengchun!
you dont have to get in touch with him through Bamberg you can contact him direct.
hoffmann has been a student from wai yan and every lesson he got chengkwong was there to translate for him. if you see the clips of wai yan on hoffmans site you see chengkwong in all of them. chengkwong went all the lessons with hoffmann together! but guess what he was also with wai yan during the times hoffmann was in germany!! thats important!
call chengkwong like i did, and talk to him let somebody chinese talk with him as his english is not so good.

chengkwong says that
A: hoffmann is very good but not the succesor!
B: there are more seniors left that know the whole system
C: wai yan gave hoffman a certificate saying that he learnt the whole chi sim vingtsun system(wengchun) not that he is the succesor
D:he is very angry with hoffmann that he is claiming to be the succsesor.

ps: the foto of cornelia on the website saying that she is the first new student is ridiculus!!! the foto is very old and was taken on a trip several years ago not recently!!!

just look at hoffmanns site you find more photos of this trip with cornelia."

Sorry to cross post Rene but it's the same subject and confirms my previous post.

Kind regards

Shen

[Andreas Hoffman]

Here is my reply from WCK.com to this:


Shen what you and your teacher Sergio Iadarola try to fabricate is a shame. But the certificate from GGM Wai Yan is the proof for your lies.

Certificate signed by GGM Wai Yan, Hong Kong 1996:

This is to certify that Mr. Andreas Hoffmann is the successor of our Weng Chun (Ving Tsun) Kung Fu from Siu Lum.

We had over 20 years peace and respect in the weng chun family. Now, Mr. Iadarola who learns from me about a period of one year tries to attack us with incredible lies, like he did in the "Yip Man Wing Chun" families.

[Shen]

Official statement from my sifu Sergio Iadarola:

Dear sifu,

Yes for me you are still my sifu, in the lineage of fung siu ching, and nothing can change that. Just like nothing can change the fact that Cesario etc is my todai and your his sigung not his sifu. I'm still very sad about all the things that happend between us and I want you to know that I dont wish to stir up trouble!

You are one of the best kungfu masters around and most certainly in the lineage of Fung Siu Ching! I have never said and will never say otherwise.

You told me several lies, in the past, which were very unnecesary;

A:You never were a student of kernspecht in the EWTO, yet I have all the pictures to prove otherwise.

B:You also told me that my sigung GM Cheng Kwong didnt know the system of fung siu ching.
He knows all you know, so why you lied about that I don't know. Maybe you were afraid I would go behind your back to Sigung? I never did that. Please ask Sigung he will tell you.

Other things as well exist, which I feel are not appropiate for this forum.

I know that you just called with Sigung, as i spoke to him about a half hour ago. You told him not to accept me as his student, again....and that if he would then I would bring fake money? Anyway childish games. An not required by a gentleman of your inteligence and skill.

Your kung fu is so great that you dont need that.

About your 5th level student playing with me at Chi Sau. I know and you know what is the truth.

I have on video a kiu sao sparring of me with a high level student of yours, when i just started with you, which proves otherwise.

If you wish to say that I trained with you for just one year then that's ok. Sigung told me that you trained for no more than 10 months in total with wai yan,during the period 1986-1996.

Sifu, this is my first post ever and will be my last. I remain with upmost respect for you, as one of the best kung fu grandmasters around.

Kind regards,

Your todai sergio

[BennyMeng]

Clarification and facts

There was a post on WCK.COM thread that made a reference to me. It has since been deleted but I want to share two things:

1) Clarifiacation of my experience with Sergio Iadarola
2) Clarification on my relationship with the Chi Sim Weng Chun family
3) Share the VTM’s professional opinion on the lineage holders or successors

My experience with Sergio Iadarola and personal opinion

I’m not sure who made the post – possible Sergio’s student – but whomever it was stated that when we first met (August 3-13, 2004) Sergio and I did some fighting. When we met, Sergio knew three things: that I was from the VTM, my primary Ip Man teacher was Grand Master Moy Yat, and my current Sifu was Grand Master Garrett Gee of the Hung Fa Yi lineage. I was in Germany because Sifu Hoffmann invited me to continue my research into the Chi Sim Weng Chun lineage from the VTM’s point of view. There were two different camps going on and while I was there and Sergio visited between the two camps, on Monday August 9th and Tuesday August 10th (visit http://home.vtmuseum.org/timeline/2004/aug03-13_2004_e.php and http://home.vtmuseum.org/timeline/2004/aug03-13_2004_f.php for more). This was the first time these two gentlemen had met.

Here’s what happened and my personal impression of Sergio over those two days.
Sergio came in on Monday and behaved very arrogantly. He said that Leung Ting’s Wing Chun was the best in the Ip Man family. Now, indirectly, he was already being disrespectful to me as well as the Moy Yat family. Then, he went on to explain how and why he broke away from the Leung Ting federation. Without going into details, he was very negative about Grand Master Leung Ting and Sifu Keith Kernspect (sp?). Sergio was very quick to demonstrate his understanding of application, especially of Biu Ji. He asked to use me as a demonstration partner so he could show his point of view to Sifu Hoffman. He tried to do a Laap Sau but he pulled me right into him. I simply maintained my structure, took his center, and bounced him backward while simultaneously neutralizing his technique. Then, he quickly said, “Let me try again.” The second time he tried to side step. I recognized that he gave up his center and bounced him back again. Basically, I easily neutralized what he was trying to explain without difficulty. After this exchange, he was a bit more humble. That was the extent of our physical exchange. Call it what you want – fighting, sparring, Chi Sau, whatever – that’s what happened. He was there to visit Sifu Hoffman. As I was there to do research on the Chi Sim family, it wasn’t my concern to skill challenge Sergio or measure ability. However, he continued to be boastful about his skill, saying he had reached to the top in the Leung Ting federation and had thousands of members under him. Later on, Sifu Hoffman touched hands with Sergio and totally dominated him. At one point, Sergio was on the ground yelling “Stop! Stop!” Sifu Hoffman replied, “Don’t quit! Continue! Continue!” In less than a day’s time, Sergio came in like a tiger – boastful of his skill – and became a little lamb, stating in his own words that the Chi Sim Weng Chun system was more effective.

My relationship with Chi Sim

The issue about me fighting with Sergio or where I got kicked out by Sifu Hoffman is laughable. The paragraph above covered the physical exchange. As for “getting kicked out”, let me make something clear. I am a researcher of Wing Chun kung fu. I was in Germany as a guest of Sifu Hoffman, representing the VTM to do research. From out first meeting, Sifu Hoffman and I have had a good relationship with a lot of positive energy. And also from our first meeting, Sifu Hoffman knew that my Sifu was (and is) Grand Master Garrett Gee of the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun lineage. The VTM and the Chi Sim family had a good relationship. The VTM promoted the Chi Sim family and Sifu Hoffman personally shared his teachings with me and the VTM staff. Our relationship continues – in fact I was recently invited to the 20th anniversary of the Chi Sim family in Germany being celebrated later this year. One of the goals of the VTM is to promote all lineages of Wing Chun so my activities were in line with that goal.

The VTM’s Official Position on lineage holders

First of all, Grand Master or Lineage Holders are not decided by a piece of paper. Ip Man didn’t have a piece of paper from his Sifu. Wai Yan didn’t have a piece of paper from the elders. We have to consider the individual’s knowledge, skill, experience, and what he has done to promote and preserve the lineage’s history, philosophy, concepts, principles, teaching methods, and culture. It comes to depth and breadth of his study, personal understanding and skill, and contribution to the martial arts community at large.

Based on the above criteria and VTM research to date, Sifu Hoffman is the most qualified person to lead the Chi Sim family. We have not contacted all senior members of the Chi Sim family, so VTM research into the Chi Sim family continues in Germany and in China.

And finally, someone mentioned about Sergio being a leading authority in Leung Jan Wing Chun. Sergio’s background is from Leung Ting, which is quite different and is not the same thing as Leung Jan Wing Chun.

Some side notes:
In a lifetime, a student may pass through many schools. It’s not until you become a Senior Student or Instructor or even Disciple under a Master that a Master will recognize you as a student. Before this, the student is often treated like a member of a club or gym. This is one of the traditions of martial arts. When you reach to the stage of a student under a Master, the Master is the only one qualified to judge the student’s depth of understanding. If the Master introduces the student to another teacher to become a recognized student, the Master gives away some of his own authority over the student.

The depth of an art – in experience or skill – is not measured by time or number of years spent with a teacher.

[CesarioDiDomeni]

In response to Mr Iadarola:

I have dedicated my life to the art of Weng Chun, keeping high my integrity and my Martial Art Ethic (Moduk) and so to teach and maintain the wisdoms of a very special art.

I have only one Weng Chun Sifu, and that is GM Andreas Hoffmann. There is no other who can claim otherwise.
I came to live in Holland to help the Fighting Skill of Mr Iadarola, but he stopped this soon because of his condition (he could not hold a pad during training) , so I helped him in his students class. But for my help I got back from him only things that hurted my personality as a Martial Artist.

But let me ask to Mr Iadarola some questions and give some points why he is not a real Weng Chun Sifu:

1-Why did he make a ground-fighting seminar in Italy from a Mario Sperry videotape?
2-Why did he make a Wing Tjun Long Pole seminar trough “inside Kung Fu” magazine?
3-Why did he cheat financialy organizers and teachers of the Italian Summercamp?
4-Why did he disrespect GM Flavio Behring after his bad time in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu?
5-Why did he organize meetings in his school only with the goal to speak bad about other Martial Artists?

This is NOT moduk, this is not respectful behaviour. These are actions of a good twister of truths, a twister of reality. Someone of this manipulative skill should use this power in a positive way and not deliberately mislead people.

[Shen]

This is a post from a dutch forum from an indirect student of Sifu Sergio.

I just talked with my sifu on the phone and he clearly remembers the meeting with sifu Meng differently! My friend from the yip ching lineage was by Sifu Mengs seminar in Germany and 2 years ago by Sifu Sergios seminar in Frankfurt. His opinion is thats its most probably the other way around and that he controlled Benny Meng, as Benny Meng prefers to write articles instead of training and his skill, in his opinion, is nowhere near Sergios.

Anyway, that Hoffmann controled him is the thruth and Sergio says so too!
Otherwise he would never become his student in the first place.

I can only say for myself is that i know my sifu and have the wingchun tapes from Benny Meng who must be one of the stiffest wingchun men i ever saw!
I do, however, respect him very much for his research, but in no way can i believe that he controlled my sifu.
In one of my first seminars with sifu Hoffmann here in amsterdam, Hoffmann told about the short chi sao match between Sergio and Benny and Hoffmann's version was a little different at the time! I will check my recordings as i probably have it on tape.

My sifus words on Benny were in short a nice guy,lot of knowledge, does a great job in promoting the wingchun family!

[Grande Puffo]

Taken from
http://www.vingtsunupdate.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=442

writen by : young



Dear cesario,
good that you show your real self.
A:i and all the students who got lessons from you at the school of sifu sergio know why you came to holland that was for your girlfriend who you met here in holland.
sifu sergio was so nice to give you a job and a house for free! thats a real sifu thats moduk.
B: me and several others complaint one time to sifu sergio about you teaching to hectic and disorganised he defended you and still says only good about you.
C:i remember the time when you could not give classes for a week because you busted your hands during a street fight you were very proud and talked for 10 minutes how you beat these two polish guys up
is that kungfu ethics?
D:is it kungfu ethics that you threathend me on the phone a few weeks back saying that you would come to beat me up and my sifu too?
E:i was there when hoffmann was in amsterdam and you always called him sigung also that i have on tape!!!

have a nice night and cesario no hard feelings,you are a great martial artist and my sifu talked about you highly just two days ago in class saying that you where a great fighter but a little hot headed but that that is italian nature

[Cang Long]

First let me welcome some of the newer members I see posting on this thread,
welcome to those of you with 2 of fewer post Shen and CesarioDiDomeni
especially nice to have you here presenting your view points. Since we are giving our view points to events which we were not witness to let me add mine.
I just talked with my sifu on the phone and he clearly remembers the meeting with sifu Meng differently! In the world of martial arts nothing new there it could be memory or it could actaully be difference of opinion.I can only say for myself is that i know my sifu and have the wingchun tapes from Benny Meng who must be one of the stiffest wingchun men i ever saw! You know your sifu that is good I know my Sigung, in the realm of wing chun "stiff" to one man is considered solid structure to another and my Sigung certainly knows how to occupy space with structure no doubt this is not beginning level stuff so mistakes of perspective are possible.originally posted by Shen
I do, however, respect him very much for his research, but in no way can i believe that he controlled my sifu. Maybe you misunderstood my Sigungs words which were, originally posted by Benny Meng
I simply maintained my structure, took his center, and bounced him backward while simultaneously neutralizing his technique.Which is precisely what good "stiff" structure can and will do for your wing chun.My sifus words on Benny were in short a nice guy,lot of knowledge, does a great job in promoting the wingchun family! Shen, you pay homage to your Sifu with the term Sifu yet you call my Sigung "Benny" never having met him. CesarioDiDomeni says Mr Iadarola Shen maybe you could learn from CesarioDiDomeni.

CesarioDiDomeni,
You raise some interesting points.

[Op108wc]

Any good video clips online?


Why did he make a ground-fighting seminar in Italy from a Mario Sperry videotape?

[Stefan Reis]

Hi,

if we get into detail, one claims „this“ and one claims „that“ – both claim to have proofs and so confusion grows.

Let´s step back a little and have a look:

On the one hand we have a Wing Tsun Sifu that has claimed several times to be sucserror of a system, to have learned a comlete system or to have learned this and that from XY. All of his teachers say different. He tries to proof it with bills and papers, but there´s still a bitter taste: although he claims himself to have learned everything, he is not aknowledged by any of this Masters / Grandmasters / Sucessors.
Many Wing Chun Masters in Germay and Europe had contact with him. In the beginning they where impressed, but after a certain amout of time almost all of them seperated from him and had nothing good to say about him. Even very close students become personaly disappointed, when they get in closer contact and get to know him.

On the other hand there is a person whos skill, dedication for Kung Fu and first of all integrity is not queryied by anyone. This person is open minded and accessible for everyone, although he had bad experiences in the past.

Doesn´t the first one just repeat, what he did before? I bet he will claim to have the complete Cheng Kwon System ( weather it´s weng chun or CK Ving Tsun is another qiestion ) in a very short amount of time. Maybe he will „proof“ that he learned secretly for many years, but for shure he will bring some papers that claim him to be sucsessor or that he learned the complete system – even if Cheng Kwon may say different then. He will make offers to Cheng Kwon ( even if he says not ) and will impress him in the beginning. Then he will use him for his own interests and dissapoint him when he doesn´t need him anymore.
History is repeating.

I support Benny Mengs point of view, that you don´t become a sucsessor by the authority of paper or by claiming yourself to be. That´s an important point. One can collect as may Systems as he can and „proof „ everything with papers and stuff, but will never BE a sucsessor of any system.

The honest way for Sergio Iadarola would be to say: i make my own system, wich is influenced by X, Y, Z , and not to claim thing that are not true.

How embarrassing for someone who calles himself „Grandmaster“ having to „proof“ that he was not dominated by people ( e.g. Sifu B.Meng and some students of Weng Chun), having to proof that he learned a certain amout of time ( though his teacher and all others say it isn´t so) and not being able to stand honest for what he does and is.

S.R.fromW.

[Shen]

Hi Cang Long,

I thought it was clear from the top of my post but let me reiterate.

The post was cut and pasted from another forum, another response, from another student of Sifu S.I. not me, not my words.

I did not write those words and did not call your Sigung, with all respect, by his first name. I would like to make clear that I was asked to post this by another foreign student of my sifu as I had access to a computer and he wished to take it from one forum to another and couldn't.

I have no personal disrespect to Hung Fa Yi, nor Master Benny Meng and any followers of said organisation. In fact, on another forum, I actually slagged someone off for their attitude to your organisation because it was based on bias and politics.

Please accept my apologies for this error and me participating by pasting someone else's ommision.

With all respect,

Shen

[thomas R]

I find it not OK that there is anybody from IWKA SIfu Sergio´s organisation who talkes bad about sifu Cesario and call claim that he is not a real martial artist with the respect of the moduk. According to the situation with the 4 guys he was fighting then pleace note that is was not small kids but grown ups and it is OK to defend your self. Dont put more fire to that story cause he will be able to tell more violent stories about his former friend sifu sergio.

There is a reason why they are not friends anymore and let that be their matter not ours. And I remember that sifu cesario moved to Holland because of a very nice girl, but he also did a wonderfull job helping in the gym of Sifu Sergio. He did almost all the teaching but did not get much money out of it. Let Sifu cesario prove how good he is as a teacher: Lets see how many students that will stay in the weng chun family in the Netherlands.

How good sifu sergio is standing I dont know GM HOffmann Sifu benny and meng know that better than me. I never saw him do free sparring in the 3 years I was his close student. He said to me he dident like to do free sparring with me. But why I dont know mabey bacause of astma or ;)

[Shen]

Thomas R,

I don't know who on this forum spoke badly about Sifu Cesario, from the IWKA but as a representative of said organisation, I wish to say that I, and many others I'm sure, regard Sifu Cesario's skill to be extremely high. He is a very decent guy and embodies a modern Shaolin warrior monk in every level. I feel privelidged to have learnt anything from him, in the past.

Whoever wrote that about Sifu Cesario Di Domenico does not know him well enough, in my opinion, as all I have for him is respect, for both his talent and the path he now treads. I would like to say again, like I have many times;

I wish him and his great school in Amsterdam every future success, which it richly deserves.

Kind regards,

Shen
(Dan Parks)

[Cang Long]

Shen,
Thank you for the explanation your last post was very clear and I am glad to see you do carry good moduk with you at all times. Welcome to the forum the topic could be better but your input is valuable and appreciated look forward to reading your post on a more positive topic soon.

Be well always

[Shen]

Dear Cang Long,

Thank you for you kind reply and your welcome. It is much appreciated amidst all of this nonsense.

I look forward to reading more from the members of your lineage and wish you well.

Kind regards

Shen

[Op108wc]

Hello Sifu Sergio & Shen
Glad to have both of you on board! Can you tell me more about GM Cheng Kwong and his school in China? Just curious!


Originally posted by Sergio Iadarola

Now I continue my study of the Chi Si Sim system in China, which makes me extremely happy.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1752


What is the “Chi Si Sim” system?
Is this “Chi Si Sim system” quite a different art from the Chi Sim Weng Chun?
Who is the current grandmaster of the Chi Sim Weng Chun in China?


Elton

[Shen]

Dear Op108wc,

Thanks for your post.

There is no extra 'Si' between the other words...that is definitely a typo and shouldn't be there. If you go to the official site of GM Hoffmann or my own sifu, you will also find several versions of the spelling of the venerable abbotts name. Examples such as:

Chi Shim
Jee Shim
Chi Sin Sim Si

Also, you will find Mandarin and Cantonese versions, as well as many other slight variations in different locations on the web. Is it any wonder that researching characters identities to purport fact can prove so difficult :)

Anyway, my sifu just called me to ask me to mention that he would love to reply to your post regarding your question, but for some reason he appears blocked from posting. I noticed that his sign in name appeared as a new member but every time he tries to post, he is not allowed. I don't know any more than that, nor why.

I can't tell you more on this as it is my sifus experience, not mine, that can offer you answers. I'm sure GM Hoffmann on the Chi Sim thread would be a good source of information.

Kind regards

Shen

[Cang Long]

Hello Shen,
I believe if there is not enough info in your registration page then it will have to be approved by one of the admins, which sometimes takes a couple of days. I know I do look forward to reading post directly from Iadarola Sifu himself.


Be well always

[Grande Puffo]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Hello Shen,
I believe if there is not enough info in your registration page then it will have to be approved by one of the admins, which sometimes takes a couple of days. I know I do look forward to reading post directly from Iadarola Sifu himself.
Be well always

I also seen by myself the registation of sifu Iadarola and the personal page was right.
Perhaps was not easy to digest and then the user was deleted.
This is what I saw and I would not think bad thoughts about anyone, we are all wise people...

OR NOT ? :)

[Cang Long]

Grande Puffo,
Thank you, I will look into it and see what is the reason for the removal.

[Cang Long]

Wing Tjun,
Although the exact reasons are unclear to me at this time I have noticed that Sifu Iadarola's membership has now been accepted and his profile is listed among all the other members and he should be allowed to post his thoughts and ideas concerning this thread. Seeing that he is the newest western to travel east and communicate with Master Cheng directly it is possible that he will have some new light to shed on this topic. Thank you in advance and we all look forward to your post.

[sauchi]

Hi Elton & EveryBody,

I was thinking about a post that Sergio had commented on in another area post-

GM Hoffmann controlled me totally, yes that's true, and i'm very happy he did. He opened my eyes, something I am very grateful for, and I have learned a lot from him and his wisdom. Now I continue my study of the Chi Si Sim system in China, which makes me extremely happy.

I hope that I have a chance soon to see some Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun as i'm really curious as to what it is all about and how our systems differ

And also Elton had asked on how Chi Shim differs so I started to think.



I think that although we share common terminology and historical backgrounds, are systems are quite different from looks and characteristics to concepts and applications.

Correct me if I am wrong on my ideas since I am not a student of Chi Shim.

Both Chi Shim and HFY both use the terminology of Tin Dei Yun and Kiu Sao but application and expression are both so different. It is as if we both had the same road map but each of us took a different path along the way because we like one view over the other.

Take Tin Yun Dei ranges:

I believe I read somewhere that Chi Shim Ranges deals with kicking range, punching range and grappling range. Where as if some one enters a space the range is measured on the distance from the punch, kick, and grab as well as the time ratio from each point. (again I am not a Chi Shim Expert)

HFY bases its ranges from 3 points and 1 line while working with the 5 line and 6 gate concepts. That is the concept that HFY apply when entering combat before we deal with punching, kicking and grappling.

We have a saying “Saam Dim Yat Sin Dihng Yuhn Sahn, Ngh douh luhk muhun fa kihn kwan – which means 3 point, one line establish the Original nature, 5 ways and 6 Gates, influence the Universe” (taken from Mastering Kung Fu page 76.)


If you enlightenment on Chi Shim perhaps we can present more of a comparison on how we differ and how we are similar.

That’s

Sauchi

[Cang Long]

Hello there
sauchi,
Only having had the pleasure of training with Grandmaster Hoffman once so far the following opinion is mine and mine alone but it might help or get the conversation pointed in the right direction.

The difference between Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi with regards to the term and concept tin yaan dei is that the concept and principle are merged as one meaning the application for Chi Sim moves from range to range based solely on the concept of Tin Yaan Dei (space). Principle and concept appear to me to be joined and inseperable which is not the case for Hung Fa Yi.

Hung Fa Yi is significantly different in that respect because it applies seperate principles and seperate applications to the concept of Tin Yaan Dei based on the prerequisites of time, energy and space as you point out saam din yaht sin(principle) leung yee mah or bun yut mah, tin yaan dei (concepts)and each individual technique (sun punch, gaan or taan, kiu sau, paak sau etc, etc.) will be employed using Hung Fa Yi and each individual principle, concept and application will then be applied as one. This can only be achieved if all responses are a reflection of time space and energy restraints.

From what I have witnessed so far I believe this to be correct but if any part or the entire point is incorrect yes sauchi I agree it would be nice to hear it from those that know both systems.

[sauchi]

Thanks Cang long

[Shen]

Hi,

I can tell you a little of my own experience in training in Ch Sim Ving Tsun and how it reflects to this post. My knowledge is still very limited in this art but I'm starting to see it more deeply and so will add, literally, my 2 cents worth.

The 18 Advanced concepts are related to Kiu Sau. They relate to how we form bridges between us an an opponent and guide, or remind us of methods to utilise our concepts, after we form a bridge.

Because a brige can be disconnected (Saat Kiu) then they don't always have to go hand in hand with a principle. Many concepts may be followed, prior to engaging in the bridge,as would be expected as we try and establish it. Once a bridge is made then the concepts can prompt the action (through the principles) that has been offered us. This may also be followed by other actions which relate to the principles, should it be required by our incompetence or the opponents ability.

So the concepts give us the correct method to form the bridge and the principles allow us to maintain it. They can, of course, interchange and bridges can be broken and then re-sought and the cycle continues in flow (Lau).

It is not important to think of the principles whilst fighting, as they are already built in to the various techniques of the system.

This only represents my understanding at my point in training and there is so much more to tell, I'm sure.

Kind regards,

Shen

[Cang Long]

Hello Shen,
Because a brige can be disconnected (Saat Kiu) then they don't always have to go hand in hand with a principle.Quite possibly the better of 2 equally talented wing chun practitioners could be described as the one that readily understands the principles governing all the concepts and how best to apply the techniques accordingly.

Therefore the above portion of your statement does not appear to be correct because whether we recognize them or not there is a principle governing every aspect of every action of every moment of our existence. Wing Chun has been described as a principle based science becuase it more than any other Shaolin kung fu has focused in on how to best (most efficiently) use and manipulate these principles in our favor in our daily lives it just so happens this concept works equally as well on the battlefield as off the battlefield. It is therefore this reason and the Shaolin discovery of this understanding that Shaolin is was and will continue to be so deserving of our respect as we try to emulate and attain this same enlightenment made possible to us because of the efforts of those who came before us.

[Shen]

Hi Cang Long,

On reading your comments, I see that what I mentioned contradicts the idea of flow and so when in physical range of an opponent, you are right.

Because the principles applied rely on so much (time space and energy), sometimes they may not be applicable. This could be due to an error in application of attaining the bridge, or the ability of the opponent, but the flow of the system should initiate an immediate response which leads to the next principle based action.

Saat Kiu can be used many times prior to engagement, if needed, but this goes along with Tan/Doh,absorb and spit, and so can seen as part of the flow which leads to the next application of a concept. Forming a bridge, sometimes requires one to pull back and re-engage at a better angle but the way I mentioned it above doesn't imply that, so thanks for your comment. Much appreciated.

Kind regards,

Shen

[Cang Long]

but the flow of the system should initiate an immediate response which leads to the next principle based action. Hello Shen,
aaaah, well said indeed. Couldn't agree more or have said it any better.