Really Studying Buddhism -or- The Prevention of Pedantic Ramblings Part I

[JK Walz]

For all of you practicing Buddhists:

How do you go about really practicing Buddhism? Read books? Try to live by the 5 Precepts? Follow the Eight Fold Path? Recognize the Four Noble Truths? Learn the Secret Handshake? Simply train HFY combat details?

Really- what is a "practicing Buddhist"? Is that any different from simply being a Buddhist? I am thinking about this in relation to our HFY training. It is my understanding that Chan is the core and absolute central philosophy behind HFY. Without a Chan focus you cannot truly have HFY. Can you really practice HFY and not practice Chan?

There are a lot of different levels of students at our school. Some people are looking for "self defense", some have always been interested in martial arts and simply choose kung fu, some are completely lost and wandering in life hoping MA will help them, others have other reasons altogether. While I am not implying that any one reason is better or worse than another I am asking is it possible to train HFY without a sincere and focused regimen of Chan training? By Chan training I mean details like history, sutras, poetry, the nitty gritty details- not just your usual "don't have attachments"..."just go with the flow"...live in harmony" comments you hear all the time (this is not in referral to anyone in particular). All of this (the "usual comments) seems superficial and pedantic- sort of like catch phrases or buzzwords that give the impression of legitimacy to a speaker without him really having to know (or live) what he is talking about.

Any suggestions or comments?

JK

[Cang Long]

Without a Chan focus you cannot truly have HFY. Can you really practice HFY and not practice Chan?
I would substitute truly with complete and secondly the different track methods of learning HFY suggest to me you can learn HFY without any cha'n influence once again I would suggest it just wouldn't be complete. Ben asked me the same thing in class the other night and my answer was the same then also. Ask yourself after I complete my trainging could I teach my son/daughter HFY to keep HFY in my family without detail knowledge of chan I think so but why would you want to.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

You bring up some interesting questions that I would also like to know. If you do not study the Chan side of HFY will you ever truly understand it? will you be stuck in a San Kiu awareness of HFY if you didn't?
James

P.S. I hear that Disciples Have to Know All OF IT, it's the rules!

[Levi]

How do you go about really practicing Buddhism? Read books? Try to live by the 5 Precepts? Follow the Eight Fold Path? Recognize the Four Noble Truths? Learn the Secret Handshake? Simply train HFY combat details?

I think all of these have value. All joking aside, there are even branches of Buddhism that study mudras, or hand gestures, so everything you've listed has inherent value in one way or another.

Really- what is a "practicing Buddhist"? Is that any different from simply being a Buddhist?

This is only my take on things, but to me a "Buddhist" would be more aptly describes as "someone who follows the Buddha Dharma." Using that definition, I would agree that one who follows the Buddha Dharma is also one who practices the Buddha Dharma. There would be no real distinction between the two.

It is my understanding that Chan is the core and absolute central philosophy behind HFY. Without a Chan focus you cannot truly have HFY. Can you really practice HFY and not practice Chan?

My opinion is yes and no. Chan is ultimately based on experiencing reality directly. It is about acknowledging the truth of the here and now. It's about experiencing life with no illusions. As such, Chan Buddhism transcends labels, and thus one could say that anyone who is concerned with what is real and what can be directly experienced could be said to be practicing Chan, or could just be directly perceiving truth, free of labels and categories.

I am asking is it possible to train HFY without a sincere and focused regimen of Chan training?

I think it's definitely possible to train HFY without a focused Chan regimen, but I wouldn't assume that you would be able to master it without dedication to the truth of Chan.

By Chan training I mean details like history, sutras, poetry, the nitty gritty details

As with my first statement, I think all of these things can be extremely important and valuable… to a degree. Even the Four Noble Truths, the Five Precepts, and the Eight Fold Path are nothing more than fingers pointing to the moon. Use them, but only so far as they can point you and move you into the right direction.

If you have little or no experience of understanding of the Buddha Dharma, or if you are developing a practice of perceiving truth for yourself, all of these things are important, as they contain parables, truths, lessons, benchmarks and stories that can help you understand the wisdom in the Dharma. In essence, these things all could be said to constitute the "Hou Chyun" of understanding the Buddha Dharma. But, of course, these things are nothing without the "San Sau" to know it. On the other hand, how can you truly practice the "San Sau" for any length of time without the "Hou Chyun" to put things in their place and perspective? I think, as with all things, you must study is as well as actually do it. One without the other can only take you so far.

-Levi
Mengs of AZ

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Sihing Levi, I feel that this nothing but a reality statement, the truth. these things all could be said to constitute the "Hou Chyun" of understanding the Buddha Dharma. But, of course, these things are nothing without the "San Sau" to know it. On the other hand, how can you truly practice the "San Sau" for any length of time without the "Hou Chyun" to put things in their place and perspective? I think, as with all things, you must study is as well as actually do it. One without the other can only take you so far.
The yin / yang of life, life as a self journey. This is something that I always contemplate, What is that one thing that makes up a beings SELF path? I find to truly know Self is to be in harmony with reality. Now a days it seams that reality is constantly changing. Every time my self starts to be understood something else is applied to the journey. Is this the building blocks of the life path or are that disturbances in the path caused by disharmony of yin / yang ? LOL
James

[passing_through]

How do you go about really practicing Buddhism? Read books? Try to live by the 5 Precepts? Follow the Eight Fold Path? Recognize the Four Noble Truths? Learn the Secret Handshake? Simply train HFY combat details?

yes and no. The rest of your questions are ultimately empty.

The meat of your question comes to this: Can you really practice HFY and not practice Chan?

In answer, what is HFY, what is Chan? However, your question also begs the question, what does "really practice" mean?

In the process of learning to defend your life, you have to give up the ego - give up your-ideas, your-concepts, your-experience to experience what is present in a moment of truth. You can learn Chan without learning to fight but you cannot learn to fight without also learning Chan. The process of mastering self-defense skills (or quite possibly, any skill) requires that the ego goes away. You can't reach the highest levels when the ego is still involved.

As Levi states, "Chan Buddhism transcends labels, and thus one could say that anyone who is concerned with what is real and what can be directly experienced could be said to be practicing Chan, or could just be directly perceiving truth, free of labels and categories." It is possible to be a Zen master and never read one word of Buddhist text... but can one defend one's life? That's a different discussion. Zen Master does not equate to Master of Self-Defense, dig? And it's possible to be a Buddhist Master and not a Zen Master - I know a gentleman that has years and years on me in terms of Chinese Buddhism, he can quote with the best of 'em... and all I have are a few little experiences here and there - but my little experiences poke holes in all the reams of paper he quotes because (it seems to me) he hasn't experienced what it is he reads.

So, in answer to the heart of your post, Can you really practice HFY and not practice Chan?, the answer is no. But the answer is not limited to “practice HFY and not practice Chan”, the question is, “Can you ever master anything and not practice Chan” and the answer is still no as anything that can be mastered requires that you aren’t the one that masters it – it masters you. You consciously submit to it, and the skill flows through you. That requires that the ego disappear… which is the goal of Chan, to remove the ego so that we might experience what is truly there rather than experiencing what our ego filters to us.

Going back to the Buddhist sycophant I mentioned above, he is trying to be the master of his knowledge rather than allow the knowledge to master him. Instead of his ego going away, it grows stronger and stronger, the more he learns. However, for any conversation to occur, I have to learn enough Buddhism to poke holes in his statements – I have to know his context so I can frame my answers in a form that matches his. Someone that understands what I’m trying to communicate tends to understand me fairly easily. However, the sycophant tends to be misunderstood because he quotes obscure, self-referential comments that only people inside to his style of communication can understand. So I act as a bridge as he doesn’t try to bridge towards me. And I do this, not so much for him but for myself and the people outside the two of us, reading the conversations.

There are a lot of different levels of students at our school.

Is your school unique in all the world?

By Chan training I mean details like history, sutras, poetry, the nitty gritty details

Knowing the precise measure and all the ingredients of a recipe is still just words on paper - you have to mix the ingredients and put it in the oven to know the merit of the recipe. A master cook doesn't need recipes - are you a master cook? If not, best get to reading. But a master chef of Chinese cuisine is far a different creature than a master chef of Italian cuisine. If you've had a valid experience, you can recognize the merit of something you read. If you don't have the experience, you have to guess at the merit of what you read. As has been suggested elsewhere in this thread, reading helps to get you moving in the right directions. Is it mandatory? No. Does it help, sometimes. Sometimes not. People can get wrapped up in what they read because it matches some of their experience and they don't want to go any farther. You can't force a situation like that... as you mention, you have students at different levels. You can't force them to grow. They'll grow in their own time and place. All you can go is provide good energy, answer their questions where their at, encourage them. Try to take a first day student and give them the sum total of the system... it's overkill, overload... too much. But, start to communicate with them at their level, act as a bridge for them, and eventually they'll come around. Or not - again, you can't force people to grow. You have your life and they have theirs.

Put into Chan terms, don’t look at the branches and flowers, look to the roots.

All of this (the "usual comments") seems superficial and pedantic- sort of like catch phrases or buzzwords that give the impression of legitimacy to a speaker without him really having to know (or live) what he is talking about.

Sometimes these pedantic, superficial phrases are as deep as the ocean. It falls to the ears of the hearer to plumb their depths. You've read the Cucumber Sage, yes? He was a fool but his words changed worlds.

Does this help to answer your question?

Jeremy R.

[Levi]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
Every time my self starts to be understood something else is applied to the journey. Is this the building blocks of the life path or are that disturbances in the path caused by disharmony of yin / yang ?

In my experience, it can be a little of both, although that doesn't necessarily equate to failure on your part. A Buddhist friend of my family said something to me a long time ago, and I am only now starting to see the wisdom of his words. He said "There is you, and there is the rest of the universe. The invisible line that you draw to separate the two is illusion." It is beginning to seem to me that this invisible line may in fact be the "ego" we must work to remove from ourselves.

This changed things for me. Suddenly the focus was not on destroying "me." If there is no "me," then what is there to harmonize with? What is there to serve as a vessel of experience and learning? What is there to receive Hou Chyun and to practice San Sau? The focus seemed to instead be on destroying the arbitrary me, the label of "me" and "not me" that I have put on everything.

Going back to your original statement of "Every time my self starts to be understood something else is applied to the journey," I would say that this realization could be good no matter what, even if it seems to carry negative connotations:

* If it means that the invisible line is growing weaker, and thus life and experience can more easily pass across the threshold, then it is definitely good because the ego is wilting.

* If it means that there are times when you feel like you have been under the influence of Mara (illusion), and that you were actually going about things from a place of ego rather than from a place of non-attachment, then it is good SO LONG AS you recognize it and move from it. Something else that friend of the family once said: "Mistakes are only mistakes if you don't learn from them. As soon as you do, they become lessons, and lessons are nothing to regret or be ashamed of."

Craving, ego, and illusion are a part of the human condition. They will never go away, but our ability to see them for what they really are removes their power over us. At that point, it really doesn't matter if they exist or not, because they no longer control us or have the capacity to delude us.

Take everything for what it's worth, and test it. That's the only way you can truly KNOW a thing.

-Levi
Meng's of AZ

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by passing_through


Does this help to answer your question?



Yes. Thanks Jeremy and Levi. I think I understand what you are saying.

Sometimes I feel torn- as a person who wants to follow this path I worry about myself and my understanding. As a disciple who is supposed to help others in the system I feel obligated to show them the way (or at least hint at it and maybe nudge them a little) but if I don't know it myself should I even try to help them?

The Cucumber Sage understood even if he could'nt express it or explain it. Those who use the catch-phrases or buzzwords (whether they be simple like those I am thinking of or sophistocated like Jeremy's sycophant) might do more harm than good in helping a novice along the path.

JK

[passing_through]

The Cucumber Sage understood even if he could'nt express it or explain it

The Cucumber Sage was an imbecile... or wise... who's to say? Regardless of what he was or was not, he caused others to investigate themselves and learn... that's the point. It doesn't matter what you say, exactly, it depends on the internal condition of the hearer. Don't sweat it. You can't know what you do does good or ill... all you can do is all you can do. If your heart is in the right place, no worries, mate.

[passing_through]

Just found this:

"Whatever the style, a surface appearance is only the outside substance of appearance. Whatever the determination, a plan to perform any Dharma method is only the inside substance of a scheme. Only the person who gets rid of within and without escapes from birth and death and ascends to eternity."
Master Hsu Yun (Empty Cloud)