new article on Wing Chun

[BennyMeng]

Interesting article... more writing looking into the origins of Wing Chun

There's still more to come in this article. The VTM would like to make comments once the article is complete.

Enjoy.


Emei Connection: Wing Chun and the Snake Signature

Koolo Teahouse by Jim Roselando

A few months ago I found out Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong, the 13th lineage holder of the 800 year old Emei tradition, was coming to Boston. I contacted a few of my friends who study Alchemy/Qi Gong/Martial Arts to ask if they wanted to come with me to meet the Grandmaster of this science. One of my teachers and one of my training partners decided to sign up. The event was five days, 9am-5pm, with an hour for lunch (and lunch turned out to be some of my most memorable moments). What follows is a discussion of my experiences with this exceptional man.

Editors Note: This article will be posted in 2 or 3 parts over the next week.

Emei History

In 1227 A.D., a monk traveled to the top of Mt Emei, one of China’s Four Holy Mountains. This monk trained and meditated on Emei and, when he reached enlightenment, took the name Bai Yun (White Cloud). Grandmaster Bai Yun wrote all his sacred knowledge, including his system designed to cultivate health and treat illness while striving to attain enlightenment, in a book called The Emei Treasured Lotus Cannon which is currently being held in a Beijing Museum.

The complete transmission of this sacred system was passed down only from direct lineage holder to direct lineage holder until the time before the Second World War when the 11th lineage holder, Grandmaster Yong Nian, had a vision that the art would be lost. Grandmaster Yong Nian then made a decision that the art should be shared between a Monk and Layman, to help protect the Emei Life, Science and Art system. Grandmaster Yong Nian taught the art to Grandmaster Zhou Qian Chuan who became the first Layman to receive full transmission, and the 12th lineage holder of the system.

Grandmaster Zhou Qian Chuan taugth the art to Buddhist Abbot Ju Zan. Grandamster Ju Zan also became the 12th generation Monk lineage holder. Around 1977, Traditional Chinese Medical Doctor and Qi Gong practitioner, Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong was brought by a friend to meet Grandmaster Ju Zan. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong was invited to join a select group for training in the Emei arts. Grandmaster Ju Zan selected Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong to receive the full transmission. In 1984, Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong was given the title of 13th lineage holder.

Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong is currently spending six months a year training the next lineage holder and six months a year traveling teaching seminars on Emei Philosophy, Health and Healing arts. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong is the Layman lineage holder so it is his job to train a Monk in the Emei arts. This was the wishes of Grandmaster Yong Nian and the tradition maintained today.

Emei Holistic Art

In the computer age, thanks to the Internet, information can be found on almost any subject. What is very surprising, however, is the noticeable lack of information to be found regarding the Emei traditions.

The Emei tradition has what Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong calls “Physical and Spiritual (mental) Balance”. Bai Yun’s art consists of The Twelve Ways, The Six Tiger Steps (or Tiger Walking), Meditations, Healing Sounds, Medicine, Weapons etc. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong feels it’s very important to have a balanced system. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong discussed how too much of anything is not good and gave an example of the difference between Emei, Shaolin and Wudang related systems and their practices:

“Of the three major orthodox Qi Gong systems in China, the Shaolin and Wudang systems mainly emphasize the martial arts forms; Emei Qigong emphasizes healing, internal self-cultivation of Qi (energy) and cleansing one's heart so that one's true nature and latent abilities can emerge”.

Twelve Posts

In the Emei system the 12 Ways (or Paths), commonly known as 12 posts, are the Body Cultivation. These are specific short sets designed to un-lock and holistically link the body while keeping it healthy and strong. While very similar to India’s Yogic practices, they are distinctly Chinese. The beauty of the 12 Ways is that there is no inch of the body that is not targeted. According to Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong, the Mother of the 12 Ways is the Tian Zhuang (Heaven Post). Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong said: “Tian Za Zhuang is to Emei just as San Ti Shi is to Xing Yi”. The last Zhuang in the Emei art, Mei Za Zhuang, is based on Meditation practice. Actually, there are 4 different types of meditations that the Emei practitioner studies at that level.

Tiger Walking

The Emei 6 Tiger Walking exercises are the 12 Ways for the Lower Half and uniting the Upper and Lower Half. Of the Emei teaching, this could be some of their most secret training aspects. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong told me “after 800 years, only 3 of the 6 Tiger Walking sets have been released to the public”. The last two Grandmaster’s each released one to the public and Grandmaster Fu Wei Zong released the third one. Only the Lineage holders know all 6 and Grandmaster Fu said “I leave it up to my successor to decide if he wishes to release the 4th set”.

Weapons

Emei Weaponry comes in three forms: Sword, Short Blade (Dagger) and Hand Spike. According to Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong the long weapons are not practical for Emei region. Its location is in the Mountains and very dense. Shorter tools were adapted. When asked about the famed Emei Umbrella methods, Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong said it was not part of the art.

Healing

The healing traditions of Emei are vast; everything from Sacred Mantras for Meditation to Vibration Healing Sounds for Internal Organs. Lineage Holders of Emei could be considered Chan (Zen) Nature Masters. The Grandmasters of this tradition have taught doctors and helped use their art for other to benefit from. It is even said that when the Abbot of Shaolin was very ill it was Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong who was brought in to treat him. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong maintains the Emei tradition of using his art and skill to help others: “Emei comes from the people and should be returned to the people”.

Analyzing the DNA

When researching martial arts there are many potential lines of comparison: historical data, terminology, poetry (Kuen Kuit), postural structure, and numerous other aspects. None, however, are as important as the Process of Cultivation with regards to Ging/Chi. In the study of Kung Fu (or any sport) we must first strengthen the body or begin its developmental training. Similar ideas can be found in Wing Chun. Among the late Grandmaster Yuen Kay-San’s early written notes is: “Sum Jing Hei Cheung Lao - quiet the heart and conserve the Chi/Breath.” One of the boxing maxims espoused by the late Grandmaster Yip Man: “externally train the tendons/sinews and internally train one Chi/Breath.” In Koo Lo village art of the late Grandmaster Leung Jan, it is recorded: “Lik Yiu Noi Gong / your power must be internal”. These references allude to a specific cultivation platform in Wing Chun.

Significantly different from the Hard Bow methods of the so-called South Fist arts, the Wing Chun cultivation process follows the road of Rou Jing (within soft carries hard). The training of the tendons, sinews, joints, meridians, and sinking of the chi to the dan tien follow a different model than those who develop the body through forced “Hard” Gong methods such as Hung Gar’s Tiet Sien (Iron Wire) or the Tiet Saam (Iron Shirt) of other arts. The Chuk (speedy), Keng (shock), Duen (short), Chuen (inch) Ging are all terms used to describe Wing Chun’s signature power. This sort of specific force is not produced via un-natural breathing and Hardening but through the road of soft.

The root of Wing Chun is Siu Lin Tao (training of the little details) set and the root of the other common arts of its region is Som Chin (Three Battles) or Som Bo Jin (Three Step Arrow). These certainly represent two different types of Base Cultivation and most certainly different forms of “Ging/Qi” cultivation. Grandmaster Fu Wei Zong said: “just as there are different Precious Stones there is different qualities of Chi. Emei uses High Quality Qi.”

The most famous description of the Wing Chun Kuen art reads: “Wing Chun Kuen is characterized by its ‘narrow’ horse and ‘short’ bridge.” The Yee Jee Kim Yeung Ma (character “=” clamping the “yang” meridian horse) and the Emei “=” shoulder Wuji (empty) horse both are designed to cultivate the Zheng Qi (True/Proper Chi) and both follow the same Yin/Yang relationship of sinking of the Yin and raising or supporting of the Yang (as in Yee Jee Kim “Yang” Ma). It is also interesting to note that in the alchemy traditions of the art, the Snake or Serpent can be regarded as the dormant dan tien Zheng Qi coiled at the base of the spine waiting to be unleashed to penetrate the body’s pathways.

Wing Chun and the Snake

Throughout the history of the world ancient cultures have used the Snake or Serpent as a symbol for Wisdom and Alchemy. The Ouroborus for the Greeks and Egyptians is similar to the Kundalini Serpent in certain Yoga arts of India. Those who practice Alchemic arts from China to cultivate Zheng Qi may have come across this symbol many times and so would those who research ancient religions.

Many Wing Chun practitioners have long speculated the questions: “what are the roots of our art?” “What is the meaning behind the Snake and the Crane?” “What did the founder, or founders, have knowledge of when developing the signature set of our art, the Siu Lin Tao (training the small details sets)?”

Across numerous lineages such as Fung, Cho, Yuen, Yip, etc. there is a story about the fusion of Snake & Crane. According to Cho and Yuen family records there is also a story of Grandmaster Miao Shun (Miu Shun) being the person who fused the two arts. Miao Shun was in all likelihood a nickname, and his real identity may never be known, but his work, even after hundreds of years, may still be retained in his signatures.

According to Grandmaster Fu Wei Zhong, in the Emei system it is the Snake that binds the 12 Zhuang and Art together. This is the DNA or signature training of Emei. It is then, perhaps, remarkable to note that the first section of Wing Chun’s Siu Lin Tao set (also found and further expanded on in the first section of the Biu Jee set) contains this exact same training concept for the hands/fingers. In the Cho family tradition, this section is called Snake Sliding Cocoon, in the Yuen Kay-San lineage it was originally called Sae Ying Sao (Snake Shape hand), and in the Fung family, Sae Mun Bai Jee (Four Direction Swaying Fingers). Many arts have this sort of training but what makes Wing Chun’s process different from that of arts like Southern Mantis is the “Rou”-style Snake Binding property.

Tracing the Taiji Circle

In the lineages of Fung, Cho, Yuen and others there is a common Sao Kuen/Sik (Fist or Section Closing Sequence) often referred to as Lop Sao, which is also popular in most south fist traditions. The Taiji Circle is “O”-shape and an older, symbolic term for the line the fingers follow when performing the action. Fung Chun, head of the Fung family of Wing Chun, can be seen performing this on his son’s web site when demonstrating some basics of his art.

During lunch with Grandmaster Fu Wei Zong, I pulled out some Kuen Kuit notes which originated with Wing Chun ancestor Yik Kam (of the Red Junk opera) and passed down through the Cho family. Grandmaster Fu asked me to read them to him. At first I don’t think he realized what they were but when I told him they were notes from Miao Shun he stopped me. “This is your poetry?” he asked. “Yes”, I answered and continued to read on. Grandmaster Fu stopped me again a number of times with questions about this or that note, but the one time that really stood out was when I read the term Taiji Circle. Grandmaster Fu asked me to show him what this was and after I showed him he said: “Yes! That is our Tracing the Taiji Circle!”

Since the Wing Chun movement was so similar to the more general version of this training, the differences or “Little Details” became important: the individual knuckle to knuckle (joint by joint) and opening/closing of the six bones of the hand that makes Wing Chun’s unique from the others. (Coming in Part 3: the Wing Chun Kuen Connection)

[BennyMeng]

It's always great to know that any system/art is still being passed on traditionally through the generations. I'm sure whoever has the opportunity to learn from Grandmasters in the Emei system will be well worth the time. I'm looking forward to reading the finished article to learn more about the Emei System.

When I was studying in China, back in 1983 one of my main teachers was from the Emei System. But I fail to understand how this system is related to Wing Chun. So far Hendrik is the first person to say that Wing Chun is coming from Emei. I'd like to go ahead and list the facts out there. Whatever he puts out there represents one person's perception.

1. Hendrik can only represent himself. He is not a representative of Cho Ga or Yik Kam's Wing Chun.

2. Hendrik has not studied the majority of other Wing Chun lineages, especially the Wing Chun which contains the Shaolin DNA.

3. He refuses to acknowledge the lineages of Wing Chun that precedes Yik Kam such as Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai of the Red Boat Opera, Dai Dung Fong and Hung Gun Biu of the secret societies, and even the existence of Cheung Ng (despite factual written documentation referencing his existence, and founder of the Red Opera Company). If he concludes that ALL Wing Chun is from Emei but based on his own lineage, that is also a misprepresentation.

4. Yik Kam's Wing Chun might very well be influenced from the Emei system because he incorporated his Emei experience into his Wing Chun, and that became the lineage of what is known as Cho Ga Wing Chun of today.

5. Yik Kam was more of a junior in the Red Boat Opera Company where well known Opera members such as Wong Wa Bo and Leung Yi Tai also practiced a version of Wing Chun which shares the same skeleton of what represents today's Wing Chun. SNT/CK/BJ/MYJ, and the two weapons.

6. All of Wing Chun today traces their historical legends and facts from Shaolin. You have two systems today such as HFY and CS Weng Chun with extensive historical, philosophical, and technical information that links back to the Southern Shaolin Temple. In addition, to many of today's Wing Chun still trace their legends back to the Southern Shaolin Temple.

7. One of the key concepts behind all Wing Chun is economy of motion, which is based on the Human form, not based on animals. For humans to fight like animals is a creation of Hollywood. To use animals to describe the attribtues for martial arts is more reasonable, but even if Wing Chun's original purpose of using the metaphor of animals is only surface level in martial arts. To continue to dwell on animal metaphors for DNA ultimately is a misrepresentation and does not go deeper. Ultimately to have efficient hand to hand combat must be based on human physiology and not animals.

7. I was a student of Emei in the past, and by no means am I an expert, but I know that there is no Muk Yan Jong or Baat Jaam Do practice in Emei.

8. In the past I have used a simple categorization to chart the Wing Chun families of today:

a) The Original System with Southern Shaolin characteristics,

b) One's personal interpretation(s) of the Original System without the Southern Shaolin characteristics,

c) the Original System plus another martial art outside of the temple,

d) a combination of b & c.

Let's see if Hendrik's conclusions can pass the reality check of what I listed above. We can all use the facts above to draw conclusions on what Hendrik presents to the public. Anybody can say whatever they want, and to draw a conclusion on Yik Kam's Wing Chun roots - this article may shed some light. However to draw a conclusion for ALL Wing Chun... is too soon. If someone can show me more facts that Wing Chun comes from Emei, then as Curator of the Ving Tsun Museum I will learn the Emei system.

[Op108wc]

Every man has a right to his opinion, but Jim' article runs exactly parallel to Grandmaster Fu's webpage...ha! He is never suspected of plagiarism.


The article really doesn't shed any new light on the history of Cho Ga Wing Chun or Wing Chun in general. Hendrik himself has stated that Yik Kam was responsible for mixing his wing chun with white crane and emei 12 zhang no one is arguing against that fact.

Jim' article runs exactly parallel to Grandmaster Fu's webpage http://emeiqigong.com/history.htm

This article provides no new revelations or evidence to anything other than yes Yik Kam did mix his limited knowledge of Wing Chun with other arts before passing it onto the Cho family and Jim was left with more questions than answers after his meeting with the Grandmaster.

[Op108wc]

Wow! Jim!?!
Jim knows who to go when he needs to wear “Hendrik Santo T-Shirt” to become a Shaolin fan.

Originally posted by Jim (KFO)

Shaolin knows who to go to when they are sick!

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42497&page=3


Originally posted by Hendrik
When Jim meet me last year, he asked me if he need to learn my SLT. I told him I will try to help him so that he can turn his enginee on via some simple move, and when his engine is on, he can develop or invent different type of moves or even no moves at all to help others. The point is not about Wearing William Hung T-shirt to become a fan. But to empower and set others free.

Originally posted by Pete
"Wearing William Hung T-shirt to become a fan." Hendrik, how many times do you need to remind people that Jim is da no.1 fan of Hendrik?

[sauchi]

Hmmm...

Sounds like Jim is trying to connect some dots.

I do believe that WC is a culmination of martial arts but I would not subscribe to the thought that WC is derived from Emei. Any information that was transmitted to Shaolin would have to be over 300 years ago and even then WC has its own distinctness which unique to wingchun.

I think Jim needs more proof than someone saying, "Hey We have that TOO!"

Benny's earlier points in his posts are very valid.

Anyone can mix and match with their own lineage and history of WC, but that does not apply to everyone.

Yik Kam might have mixed his WC with Emei but that doesn't prove that all WC roots are based in WC only his this, in my opinion, would insult and discredit the ancestors that brought us this Technology.

Sauchi

[Op108wc]

Hello people,

It's been a few years since I have talked about wing chun in any forum/list, but this topic is interesting enough that I decided to say a word or two about it. I did not intend it, but this post turned out much longer than I thought in the beginning, so bare with me and have patience when reading all of this. Let's just say that I have accumulated a lot to say over the last few years.

I have a few comments on this whole Emei/Shaolin/Wing Chun roots/connections discussion that has been going on for a few years now. Fact is that we will *never* know where wing chun originally came from and what other martial arts went into its creation. There are no written documents from outside (i.e. non-biased) sources, no uninterrupted geneology going back to shaolin that is verifiable (again by outside sources). What we have are just a bunch of personal speculations. It's ok to think aloud and talk about probabilities of what might have actually happened in the past, but it's not ok/productive to get carried away and see things/similarities where there are none.

First of all, let's remember what wing chun really is. It's a fighting system. You don't have to be a genious to see that all parts of the wing chun system were created for the sole purpose of making the practitioner a very effective fighter. In this regard it's not like any other chinese system I have seen so far. It's very economic, efficient and all the techiniques and movements in the forms can be explained in the framework of their fighting applications. Such a martial art is not created overnight and not just by anyone. Logic would tell us that it *must* have been created by people who very expert martial artists over a period of time. If these expert martial artists came from Shaolin or elsewhere, we will never know. Could wing chun have been the "secret" fighting art of shaolin (north shaolin, south shaolin...or whatever)? Sure, but there is no proof. Could it have been invented by martial arts experts outside shaolin? Again, sure...possible.

What is clear to me however is that it was *not* invented as/influenced by a health or qigong system such as emei. Why would martial arts experts, who are trying to come up with an efficient fighting system try to include any helth/qigong system in their art? Imagine you are in their shoes? Would you try to make your art most efficient and economic in a fight, so you actually survive that fight, or would you worry about your stance promoting your health? Let's remember that this is a *martial* art first and foremost. Any perceived or actual health benefits are a side-effect and could as well be achieved by a good workout in the gym, swimming, running etc.

A few years ago when Hendrik started talking about the emei/crane connection, I did not doubt that there *might* be something to it. He was talking about the cho family kuen kuits and how they are similar to emei saying/kuits and how the emei 12 zhuang were similar to our siu lin tao. Not having seen the emei art, all I/we had to go by were Hendrik's words and interpretations. It all sounded plausable. I was imagining some Emei master standing in our Yee Gee kim yeung ma (yes, with toes pointing inward and knees very close) doing movements similar to our wing chun hand techniques.

Now, however, there are pictures and videos of Fu Weizhong performing some of his art. After seeing those pictures and videos and reading his website it is absolutely clear to me that it is highly unlikely that there are any connections between any emei health/qigong art and Wing Chun. I also find it highly unlikely that wing chun had much to do with yongchun baihequan (wing chun bak hok kuen), also known as Wing Chun white crane. Having seen several versions of both Saam Chin and praying mantis's Saam Bo Chin, I just can't too many similarities, beyond coincidental ones, between those forms and the Sum Nung Siu Lin Tao that I practice (or any Yip Man Siu Nim Tao for that matter). Some similarities, yes. Enough to warrant declaring white crane an ancestor of wing chun? Nope. More below....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
Hey guys,
Emei Snake

Is this our Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma roots?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...3782601&q=Emei


"Absolutely not. Not likely at all. I can't see any similarity at all to our wing chun stance. Not only that, it looks like any basic qigong stance I have come across so far. Quite common in China and not specific to Emei. A qigong style called "wai dan gong", which I have some familiarity with, uses the same exact stance and even similar shaking exercises. So, similar to other qigong systems. Absolutely. Similar to wing chun...only if you want to believe in it. You really need a lot of imagination to see any similarity to wing chun."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
Hello,


The small letter set or Siu Set is also combat spacific ---

In the Emei 12 zhuang they have the 12 ways and 6 Steps.

In Leung Jan PSWC art he has the Sup Yi Do Keung (12 ways of the fist) and 6 extensions.



"And Sum Nung wing chun has the 12 san sik. Hung Gar has 12 Kiu Sao. Other systems have 12 this, 6 that, 108 this and that etc..etc...etc. If you have not noticed chinese numerology is the common denominator here and used extensively in totally unrelated martial arts, too. After all, these people lived in China and can't escape its cultural influence."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
Two of the Emei 12 ways are:

Siu Zhuang (little ways)

Dai Zhuang (big ways)

The first two of Leung Jan's Sup Yi Do Kuen are:

Siu Lin (little training)

Dai Lin (big training)

Perhaps Leung Jan was paying homage to the ancestral Snake system?


"Absolutely not likely. You're trying to argue that both arts are similar/connected by pinning down your argument on two of the most common words in the chinese language: "small" and "big." That's a pretty weak argument. Do you have any idea how many chinese nouns/names/expressions have "siu/xiao" "dai/da" in them? Is it not logical then that two totally unrelated people/groups of people would use these very common words to describe two totally unrelated things? Remember, the most basic/easiest explanation is usually the right one. That's what scientists go by anyway."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
That is IMHO the essence of Siu Lien Tau in every part of the body.... Awareness, Feltsense, and elegant handling... That need the snake or emei silk worm technology. a different technology compare with the Shao Lin Yee Jing Jing....


"Why does the SLT "need" emei technology? Qigong technology to make a superior martial art? Doubtful. When wing chun people refer to "sae ying" or "hok ying" in wing chun they refer to shapes of techniques resembling the body of a snake (tan, fook, dap, biu, etc.) or the wings of a crane (various forms of bong sao, saat kiu etc.). "Ying" means "shape", not "engine." Both are included in the SLT and both have nothing to do with Qigong specific things in wing chun. SLT teaching body structure, power generation, stance dynamics, upper and lower body connection...yes...of course. Qigong? Emei "engine". Nope.

Yongchun baihe influence? Maybe, there seem to be some similarities and this hypothesis is much more likely than the emei connection, but most likely no direct connection in my opinion. They might have similar sources but why does wing chun *have* to come from white crane? There's just no logic behind it.

Let's not forget that non of the "origin" stories actually say that wing chun was developed from some snake *style* or crane *style*. The stories always refer to the snake/crane fight. A real snake and a real crane. Since some people here are referring to the wing chun origin stories to justify the crane connection, we might as well read those stories literally, keeping in my still that they are just stories and not historical truth."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
If you are looking for the long pole and dummy then one need not look any further than what wasw mentioned in the article. Snake and Crane. The Crane has the Wooden Dummy and Pole. Check out the attachments:

Foto 1: White Crane WC Lee Kiang with Pole

Foto 2: White Crane Jong

Come on Jim. Those aren't and probably never have been part of the "classical" Yongchun white crane system. Here you have their official curriculum:


http://www.yongchunbaihechuen.com/system.html



"Can't find a long pole and a wooden dummy there. The wooden dummy training, in my opinion, is the *real* treasure and core of wing chun and maybe the key to the real origin of our art. How come only wing chun and "weng" chun have such elaborate wooden dummy training? I've seen the whole weng chun system including all three weng chun wooden dummy forms and it is absolutely clear to me that both wing chun and weng chun come from the same source. If one sees the dummy forms alone, one might think that they come straight from some unknown "wing" chun branch instead of another martial art called "weng" chun. Same applies to application and concepts, including the center line concept and "whole body" power/connection concepts. So, did "weng" chun also come from a fusion of Yong chun white crane and emei? I highly doubt it. Did both arts come from Shaolin? Again, no idea. Were they created by martial arts experts as ingeniously effective martial arts? You bet. If these experts were at shaolin or elsewhere is really quite unimportant"

(part 2 of this post below...please read on)



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
IMHO, some have carried the Pidgeon toe to the extreme today which causing the blockage of the medirians and screw up the weight control.



"Funny, my toes are pointed in quite a bit and my weight control is just fine. It fits in just fine with the rest of my wing chun body structure and footwork, including the turning and stepping. Try having a one fist distance (or even less) between knees stance with your feet parallel. Then see what kind of "blockages" and physical comfort problems that will cause. Then try to turn left and right from your parallel foot stance into a pien san (turned) stance and then try to come back to the jing san (frontal) stance. Good luck! It really screws up wing chun body mechanics. I especially recommend this little exercise to Jim, as I know that the Gu Lo turning/stance is quite similar to our Sum Nung/YKS turning/stance."



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
This type of training will not get one into Orbiting...


"What if I don't want to "orbit?" What if I look at the SLT as a way to learn/practice the correct techniques (wing chun alphabet), body structure, inch power generation, wrist power generation, body connection etc..etc.? What if that was really the purpose instead of "orbiting" and qigong exercises? Trust me, that I have chuen jing...and I have not orbited single day in my life (not that I am aware of anyway) and my toes are pointing in with my knees in. Looks like "emei" qigong technology is not necessary. Again, let's remember that wing chun is a practical martial art and conceived that way. One does not need some qigong exercices to achieve the various "jings" (power generation methods) of the various martial arts. There is nothing mystical about it. It's all practice."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
http://podcast.blog.webs-tv.net/wingchun/

scroll down and look at how was the equal shoulder stance of YKS's brother.


"I looked at it and all I see is an old, almost decrepid guy who can barely move. His techniques and his stance don't look crisp. Besides that, he looks like he's just standing there in a normal "everyday" stance, posing for photos, doing some halfhearted hand techniques on the dummy. This was obviously never meant to be strung together into a movie. Let me assure you that neither Yuen Kay San nor Sum Nung were standing in some parallel feet stance and "orbiting." I highly doubt that a young, non-posing Yuen Chai Wan was any different. Let's not jump to conclusions from some old photos showing an old yuen chai wan posing for photos."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
look at what is in that generation, when Orbiting is common practice....
after that generation, lots of things are evolved..... [/i]


"How do you know "orbiting" was common at that time? Neither Yuen Kay San, nor Yip Man, nor the Gu Lo people are practicing with parallel feet. You think they all came up with the "extreme" toes in approach, as you call it, independently from each other? You *really* think that people like Sum Nung and Yip Man's students failed to notice that Yuen Kay San and Yip Man were standing with their fee parallel and "orbiting" (which, of course, they were not) and learned it all wrong and decided to turn their feet in? Come on Hendrik, let's use some logic here instead of speculating wildly."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
As if one want to know if one's art is Chen taiji related, one goes see Chen Xio-Wang, Emei related one sees Fu Wei Jong, Shao Lin related, one sees the leader monk in Shao Lin .


"Really? And what is Chen Xiaowang going to tell me? The guy does not even know wing chun. How can you judge if something is similar to what you are doing if you don't even know anything about it? He can only look at external similarities, which can and will be deceiving. The Lao Jia Yi Lu of Chen Taiji has Tan Sao, Wu Sao, Fook Sao and Bong Sao shapes...should I now go ahead and say that I think Wing Chun comes from Chen Taijiquan? Of course not. You are going to see similar shapes in many chinese martial arts and even in related qigong systems. After all they did not develop in a vacuum, but within chinese society and culture, which shaped them. A chen taiji master of the same generation of Chen Xiaowang once told me, after doing some push hands (I used my wing chun chi-sao reflexes) that my "energy" was very close to his Taiji energy. Is that another reason to form a theory that claims wing chun comes from Taiji? No. So why should some external *perceived* similarities to Emei warrant such claims?"



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
Now we have the feedback from Gm Fu. We also have the confirmation from Fujian White Crane.


"Feedback? The man says "it looks similar." Nothing more. Look above for what that statement is worth. Confirmation from white crane? What confirmation? Did you find someone, who was there when some white crane people decided to use the "emei engine" to create wing chun? If not, how can you get "confirmation?" Even if some white crane guy said: "Yeah, I see lots of similarities between wing chun and white crane" that only means that there are similarities. Nothing more, nothing less. It does *not* mean, "wing chun must therefore come from white crane." That is not a logical conclusion. Now..if white crane had a form called siu lin tao (or a dummy), which was very similar to ours....now THAT would be a different story. There's just not any credible evidence. It's all speculation at this point and should be presented as such instead of making it look like it's the most likely version of what might have happened."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hendrik
Thus, those who believe WCK is from Wudang, or Taiji or Shao LIn needs to get thier feedback from the leader of Wudang, Shao Lin....etc otherwise it is all speculation.


"And those "leaders" are speculating themselves as they have no clue about wing chun and no clue about what might have happened in the distant past. Again, they are just seeing external, superficial similarities as stated several times above.

With some persuasive skill you could convince all three leaders (Wudang, Taiji, Shaolin) that wing chun is similar to what they are doing. Getting their feedback can be helpful, but is not conclusive."


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
I think ""we"" Over Exaggerate the outward heel clamp as Wing Chun practitioners. The name of our horse is (yee jee "=") so the design is not heels so far out which will throw off the Ma. Equal is important.


"Jim, you obviously don't know (or don't want to see) how the chinese "two" character is really written. It's not two equal length horizontal lines as you depicted above (hence NOT "="). It's a shorter line on top and a longer line on the bottom:

http://ncrcls.org/csl/csl101/chars(u...u)/er4-two.jpg

or

http://www.usc.edu/dept/ealc/chinese.../output/er.htm


So, if you use your imagination and picture the toes of your feet touching the ends of the shorter line above and the heels of your feet touching the ends of the longer line below, you will realize that your theory about the "character two" stance (yee jee) does not have any merit and is totally flawed. The character two clearly implies that the toes are supposed to be turned in. Knowing how the "two" character is really written in chinese completely invalidates what you said/thought above. The stance was meant this way and nothing is "thrown off." Everything is very stable actually....very nicely thought out stance."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Roselando
When I look at the old pictures YM and others you can see that they maybe train a bit wider or deeper to strengthen the legs early on but then when you look at any of their foto's (YM, YKS, YCW, Fung's etc.) you see them keeping the feet in good position.


"Yes, very good position..with the toes in as the stance was meant to be performed. If you see anything else, then you are just seeing things that are not there. See above explanation why they would not have used any kind of "parallel" type stance similar to emei. It just wasn't meant that way by the founders of wing chun. Let's also not forget that the yee gee kim yeung ma is not specific to wing chun. Wong Fei Hung line Hung gar's tid sin kuen has the YGKYM and they perform it with their toes in. A rare branch of (probably very old) Hung Gar called "Ha say/sei fu" performs ALL their forms in YGKYM...and guess what? Toes are pointing in. So, Hung Gar was influenced by emei and white crane too? Hardly.... It's more likely that the YGKYM from wing chun and hung gar have some common, older source.

So, that's it for now. Trying to figure out the roots of our art is a noble and ambitious endeavor but let's not forget for what purpose wing chun was created for when examining all available evidence.

Take care,
Mustafa

PS: Just to make sure (as there are some political side-shows going on in this thread)...this criticism is NOT politically motivated. I just speak for myself. The criticism is offered in a friendly, open minded manner....just think of it as another "paper" in a peer-reviewed scientific journal contradicting your paper.

[Op108wc]

Hendrik had the best answers to everything.

Hendrik, a group of people ……, who are they? Hmm….Robert, Rene and Hendrik!!!

Originally posted by Hendrik
This topic is about Jim's article. there is nothing to do with me. and now this threathen me with bad karma just because I point out Benny's screw up. So is Benny the Buddha or God that he is all entitle to bad mouth others and making claim. and if anyone disagree then there will be bad karma falling to them? or as usual, a group of people will start posting to bully and attack to punished the disagree person?


Hendrik, you and your friends….., who are they? Hmm….Robert, Rene and Hendrik!!!


hendrik,
It is actually you who "targeted" my Sigung when you and your friends sent the emails that you sent. This is where the rumors started so again you have only yourself to blame. Your problem is you found out the Master decided he could not trust you and that is why he showed my Sigung the emails he like many other people can see your real face.

Now you are the one posting anything and everything but relevant topics relating to Jim's article. Your tatics are as transparent and superficial as your his_tory telling.

[Cang Long]

El ,
Jim thinks the wooden dummy may come from white crane. Jim must not think any training took place at shaolin.

For your consideration....
Google Image search for Wing Chun wooden dummy (http://images.google.com/images?q=Wing+Chun+Wooden+Dummy+&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images)

Google Image search for white crane wooden dummy (http://images.google.com/images?q=white+crane+wooden+dummy&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images)

[Op108wc]

JIM thinks--the aggregate of all the misunderstandings that collect around a new name.


Originally posted by Cang Long
El ,
Jim thinks the wooden dummy may come from white crane. Jim must not think any training took place at shaolin.

For your consideration....
Google Image search for Wing Chun wooden dummy (http://images.google.com/images?q=Wing+Chun+Wooden+Dummy+&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images)

Google Image search for white crane wooden dummy (http://images.google.com/images?q=white+crane+wooden+dummy&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images)

[Op108wc]

Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well. What about Rene Ritchie, is he a good liar? Well, what do you think?


originally posted by rene ritchie
Yik Kam supposedly did the same WCK as Wong Wah-Bo. What Leung Yee-Tai did remains a mystery as there is no separate Leung Yee-Tai branch (as there is a separate Dai Fa Min Kam branch through Fung Siu-Ching). He just, again supposedly, wrote it down a hundred year earlier or so. (The legendary fusion of Ng Mui and Miu Shun having been done generations before, just like the Yip Man version of the legend).

Originally posted by Cang Long
"Supposedly" Rene, you above all other people should understand a little about Chinese history yet it comes as no surprise that the Author of "Legends of Wing Chun Embers of the Shaolin" you are so quick to say "they" all use the term Shaolin but you are quick to join them as well and it appears you will say or do anything to make a quick buck or support hendrik contradicting yourself in yet another post, your words lose credibility with each new post.

What is true today is even more so in the past when a wing chun practitioner admits to having only learned siu lin tau but not chum kiu or biu jee it means that student has not learned the entire system. When only one family out of five can trace their roots back to Emei and white crane it make sense they are the abberation not the norm. Funny how these rules only change when someone applies them to hendrik's his_tory. Your patronizing of hendrik only hinders the acceptance of these facts because he views these facts as derogatory and it his attachment of trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill that will not allow him to stop bashing Shaolin in the name of bringing Cho Ga Wing Chun to a place it can not otherwise reach.


originally posted by rene ritchie
And if not mentioning something for a long time led to problems in credibility, even entire branches of WCK (most of which were all but completely unknown outside China until the last 10-15 years) would be in a lot of trouble

Originally posted by Cang Long
Is that the ideology you used to write a Yeun Kay San book that left GM Sum Nung less than impressed or do you still believe that you were his savior writing a book he could have easily written himself had he ever wanted it written in the first place.

[Op108wc]

Cang Long, you hit the nail on the head!

Originally posted by Cang Long
4 different lineages compared to 1 and Jim you are suggesting that the one story is more likely than the 4. Jim since you are now speaking on behalf of so many lineages can you answer this. Since Wong Wah-Bo was the senior-most Wing Chun Kuen practitioner of the Red Junk Opera in the mid-1800s. How can Yik Kam invent what Wong Wah-Bo his senior was already known to have not only practiced but passed down through his lineage. When Hung Gun Biu, Dai Dung Fong(Pao Fa Lein) and Jee Shim are all senior to Yik Kam and all trace their lineage back before the time of Yik Kam how is it possible for Yik Kam to invent what they were already reported to have passed down. Please don't feel so attached to any answer that you feel the need to go out on a limb with your answer if you don't know just say so as you said earlier its only history.


Chango, you are on the money!

Originally posted by Chango
This point stands very solid at the center of this discussion and it seems that it cannot be ignored when considering the cases in question as plausable! This logic seems to be pretty cut and dry.
Great point Tony!


Hendrik, right off the mark!…blowing smoke out of his mouth into other people’s mouth, eyes, and noses!


Originally posted by Hendrik
hahaha, all the Yik Kam this and Wong wah po that.

Lineage means methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing.

face it, can one do Fa JIng, Far Jing, and Thing Jing or the issue of force, the deflection of force, and the sensing of force after the practice of the one set, three set, three thousand set?

if yes, get to the real discussion, reveal the methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing.

Otherwise, IMHHHHHO, it is all entertainment stuffs.

If you like to get to core of de-Mystified WCK, great, reveal the lineage's practice methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing. compare that toward is it Shao Lin, Emei, Wudang......etc.

That simple. otherwise, you dont have a thing but marketing and sale pitch. thus, there is no way you can do shock jing. see, your platform witll tell. similar to those who do weight lifting. all what they do has to be making sense otherwise their body cannot do it. so, what is your's ?

have you ever see those who do Squat doing it with one fist knees distance or no root type of loose rooting stance? can the squat be done that way? comon sense.


Otherwise, it is just his-entertainment all talks and no content. One can talk until the end of time but goes no where.


So, what is the process of who is senior who is junior who is monk who is this or that. who cares? Got process?

Show it , otherwise, all just talk.

1000’ posts after 1000’ posts after 1000’s posts. Hendrik doesn’t know how to quit.

Like many people previously said... DON"T BOTHER TRYING TO DEAL WITH Hendrick Santo... not worth it. Your discussion is better tabled elsewhere. Until he comes out with straightforth answers that are direct, it is only fair for others to question Hendrik's credibility with WCK. Hendrik fills his posts with self-serving, self-aggrandizing stories to make his WATER SHAPE HAND as the real, true, secret, authentic, special version TAN SAU. But our WCK ancestor Wong Wah Bo did not learn his TAN SAU from YIK KAM's WATER SHAPE HAND.

In the old days, this would result in SHOW US WHAT IS UNDER YOUR HAT. Nowadays, it results in flamewars on the internet. And since only trolls like Hendrik and his gangs can do this again and again. And since his teacher passed away long time ago and other Cho Ga members no longer can tell this charecter what to do anymore. In public, this self-proclaimed Cho Ga succesor Hendrik, he can tell and either leave it aside and work on his martial arts. Is there hope for him to improve himself? Well, he is not a teaher, and he doesn't own a school. Therefore he is not afraid of attacking other people on the internet, no one can get even with him.... hiding behind his armchair,


Hendrik, you're reading from the same page. Getting what you want won’t spoil you.

Originally posted by Hendrik
This is not a political correct post. IT is not even a sweet post some of us love to read and discuss. It is about looking within us. Looking into our WCK. Looking and facing what we think we know but perhaps we think we know however in fact we totally lost the grasp of the reality.

Why is that happen ? Why lost the grasp of the reality? IMHO, because we sometimes place our bias, the cultural stuffs and the sifu says more important then reality of how the nature works. Thus, it becomes a disconnect where whatever we do side track away from the reality further and further.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Rene
Given all the debate about where Wing Chun comes from, it still seems elusive what we define as "Wing Chun" to measure these theories against.

What is the "core" of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Shaolin?

HFY Kiu Sau.& Chi Shim Kiu Sau, Mook Yan Jong, Butterfly Swords, and 6&1/2 pole.

Originally posted by Rene
What is the "core" of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Fukien White Crane?

None, just a story!

Originally posted by Rene
What is the "core" of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Emei?

None!

Except for Yik Kam.


Originally posted by Rene
What is the "core" of Wing Chun that can obviously be found on the Red Junks?

Chi Shim WC, Wong Wah Bo & Leung Yee Tai WC, Mook Yan Jong, Butterfly Swords and 6&1/2 pole.

[Op108wc]

Kukien White Crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ac6IehNjg4c&mode=related&search=

Snake and Crane
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uaho4gxSveA&mode=related&search=

[Op108wc]

A more ironic view…

Anyway, you (Hendrik) have managed to distract the discussion from the main point I was trying to make earlier, namely, that your thoery and Jim's article make no logical sense and go against any reason and scientific thinking.

Jim Roselando will need a scorecard to keep up with who’s still talking to whom.

Great post! A good read will clear your mind.

Originally posted by Mustafa
Hello Hendrik,

Unfortunately, I don't really see much sense in having a discussion about this topic with you. You are so set in your ways that you won't even address any actual arguments. In your whole post you are basically trying to say that I don't know what I am talking about, lack understanding, don't understand you...etc. You make it look like I am advocating violence, whereas you are advocating peace. All of this just shows you that you have absolutely no idea about what I am talking about, and no idea about the points I am trying to make and absolutely no clue about me and my intentions. Worse, instead of concentrating on the points I have made and logically discussing them, you concentrate on *the person*....namely me and my supposed lack of understanding of the subject matter with your insuniations (subtle as they may be). I am not surprised by this, as this is absolutely normal behavior for people who are so convinced of something (even if it's just blind faith), that everyone else *must* be blind and, of course, wrong.

Then you start talking about modesty without apparently understanding what modesty means. Do you really think it's modest to imply that others (in this case me) just don't understand what you are saying or worse, don't understand the system, thereby putting yourself on a pedestal as the "master of understanding?" If you are not the "master of undestanding", i.e. on the summit of wing chun knowledge, then who are you to judge my understanding of wing chun? How come you keep saying (for years now), that "others will see in time", implying that they will one day understand the "high level" theory, that at this point only Hendrik and a few followers (i.e. anyone agreeing with Hendrik) can possibly understand (understand = agree with Hendrik). It's never a good idea to throw with stones if you are sitting in a glass house. If you advocate modesty, maybe it's a good idea to demonstrate it instead of unjustly accusing other people of lacking modesty.

Just judging from your posts over the years in various forums and lists, I could just say: "Hendrik obviously has no idea about wing chun," but you know what? I won't say that. Why? Because I will reserve that judgment until the time when I actually meet you (which will be much easier to do next year, since I am moving to the west coast, most likely southern California). After all, internet discussions can be deceiving. What I know for sure, however, is that it's impossible to have a *logical" discussion about comparative wing chun history with you. It's like trying to have a *logical*, reasonable discussion about religion with someone who is extremely religious. For a person like that anyone doubting anything that his/her religious book/leaders advocate is just a sign of "blindness", ignorance, and these people will hopefully find the truth in the future...etc...etc. "God bless their soul, as they are going to hell." Does that sound familiar, Hendrik?

Anyway, I will explain one last time my point of view here to you and hope that you will actually understand this time. I can't do anything beyond that. I can only take a horse to the water, but can't force it to drink. Here it goes:

I consider martial arts "dead" arts. They have served their purpose in prior societies, but are not needed presently due to modern weapons, military, law enforcement, courts/legal system etc..etc. There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that martial arts were created for fighting, i.e. for subduing an opponent. I thought the name "martial" art would have given this fact away, but after this discussion I feel I need to point this fact out specifically for clarity. Wing Chun happens to be one of those arts that have pockets of *functional* knowledge, which survived to the present time.

I happen to be one of those people who think that this old knowledge, from times when wing chun was actually used for its intended purpose, should be preserved. It's like preserving other dead or dying arts, such as sword making, shooting arrows from horseback (to name a few arts in the martial art realm) or making (by hand) and repairing copper/iron/metal cups/bowls and traditional herbal medicine. When preserving dead/dying arts it's absolutely important to preserve it's functionality. And wing chun's functionality happens to be subduing someone who wants to fight you. Plain and simple. Does that mean I advocate violence? Do I like to watch people get hurt? Do I get off on violence? Do I have a violent personality? No. Absolutely not. I've been in enough fights and seen enough fights (and people getting hurt and getting hurt myself) in my life, even before wing chun, that I know that peace is the best way to. It's just not worth it to get maimed for the rest of your life, or even die, just because you made *one* wrong choice and decided to fight for whatever reason. If you can, walking away and avoiding a fight is always the best option. But, if you can't walk away, and the only option is to fight to save your life and/or your bodily functions, then you better know how to fight. I don't think anyone would disagree with that.

So, as you can see, Hendrik, I do not have a violent personality, nor do I advocate any violence. However, I am not going to try to "mold" wing chun into a peaceful art, as you have been (presumely subconsciously) doing for a few years now. If I see an art that has been ingeniously designed to subdue an opponent in the most efficient way possible, then I will try to preserve that aspect of this art. Plain and simple. And I won't let my peaceful personality and/or faith influence my logic and reasoning. Wing chun was taught to me as a fighting art and was taught to my teacher as a fighting art and was taught to his teacher (Sum Nung) as a fighting art. I have learned some incredibly effective/ingenious fighting methods/concepts from my teacher. And yes, Hendrik, this includes body structure and power transmission methods. I consider these teachings literally a treasure. Now, will I go try to pick fights with random people just to *test* my wing chun or "prove" its efficiency and possibly get off on beating up others? No! Absolutely not. As I said before, I look at wing chun as an *art* form. Yes, I do plan on preserving it for its intended purpose, i.e. subduing an opponent, but I won't advocate violence. If you get attacked and have no other choice, you better know *functional* wing chun. Otherwise, train it as realistically as possible, while keeping risk of injury at a minimum, to preserve the art. Trying to make the art into a qigong exercise will kill it faster than you can say "dead." Don't get me wrong, I have a *very* open mind and I think that Qigong/meditation etc. are valid arts on their own and should be appreciated....they just don't form the foundation of wing chun, that's all.

Anyway, you have managed to distract the discussion from the main point I was trying to make earlier, namely, that your thoery and Jim's article make no logical sense and go against any reason and scientific thinking. I am still waiting for you and/or Jim to actually invalidate the points that I have made. Remember that invalidating would involve actually providing some *proof* for your theory instead of "proving" it by saying that "they don't understand." A logical discussion needs logical arguments that concentrate on the issue at hand.

One last point about power generation. From your writings it seems that you don't seem to understand how power generation works in (again...I'll leave final judgment on that to the time when I meet you) in wing chun. Wing chun uses short power/whole-body power (or whatever else you want to call it). If you don't have short power, you might as well throw your wing chun out the window. You, Hendrik, seem to think that the YGKYM with the one fist distance between the knees and the toes turned in somehow makes it impossible to develop "jing" and that the emei stance is somehow needed for developing such power. So, what would you say if I told you that, once you have developed short power, you can use short power sitting on the couch with your feet on the table watching TV? What would you say if I told you that such power comes "by itself" once the forms are practiced the *correct* way. There are specific methods for generation of such short power/whole body power, which have absolutely *nothing* to do with emei qigong, but everything to do with body mechanics and body alignment. Don't ask me to explain what I mean by that, because I won't explain it. As I have said many times before in this thread, I just don't believe in technical discussions online. Not a good medium for such a purpose at all. But an excellent medium for logical discussions of history/viewpoints/theories etc. .

That's why it's probably a good idea to get *back* to the actual discussion about why your emei/white crane theory is full of huge gaping holes, which I have pointed out already. If you actually decide to address the points in a reasonable manner, the discussion can go on. If not, then this is the end and I will just have to live with the fact that logical, reasonable discussion with you is an impossibility (at least online).

Take care,
Mustafa

[wingchunKid]

7. One of the key concepts behind all Wing Chun is economy of motion, which is based on the Human form, not based on animals. For humans to fight like animals is a creation of Hollywood. To use animals to describe the attribtues for martial arts is more reasonable, but even if Wing Chun's original purpose of using the metaphor of animals is only surface level in martial arts. To continue to dwell on animal metaphors for DNA ultimately is a misrepresentation and does not go deeper. Ultimately to have efficient hand to hand combat must be based on human physiology and not animals.

very well put sihing meng. the creation of wing chun is born out of necessity and just like you said it is revolutionary rather than evolutionary. they needed a system that will counter every possible martial arts including snake and crane styles.

i don't understand why people like hendrik is forcing the idea of wing chun being an off shoot of snake and crane styles. if he is referring to his branch of wing chun, i have no arguments about it. but for him to refer to all wing chun in general, he is badly mistaken. i have been training hfy wing chun for sometime now and never did it cross my mind that i am training snake or crane style. from slt to kiu sau to single hand chi sau to wooden dummy, hfywc is consistent. hfywc teaches one to fight like human and not like an animal.



to hendrik and your friends:

from day one our ancestors was very clear as to what the inspiration and design of wing chun was. try meditating on these kuen kuits--

saam dim yat sin, ding yun san

ng dou luk mun, fa kin kwan

and see if you can guess what these kuen kuits refer to. if you can't deduce what it means just let me know.


wingchunKid

:bazooka:

[BennyMeng]

I just now got back to this discussion. My PC was down for a week.

In my post above, I made several points. Here are some additional things to consider:

There are many systems that come from Shaolin directly or have been strongly influenced by the Shaolin temples but we can break them into two basic categories: those that train for martial arts/health/qigong, termed Kuen Seut systems and those that train to cultivate Chan, termed Kuen Faat systems (which trained martial arts, health, and qigong as part of the process of cultivating Chan).

The system I’m learning directly from Grand Master Gee contains the Shaolin DNA, which is Chan Buddhism. In Shaolin, the practice of martial arts for self-defense or health, were by-products of a Chan mindset. The primary practice of martial arts in Shaolin is as Chan cultivation. In the temple, there are two types of students – Kuen Faat Dai Ji and Kuen Suet Daai Ji. Kuen Faat Daai Ji are the students that use the fist (Kuen) to cultivate Chan (Faat). This process is called Yi Mo Yap Sim (Use Martial Arts to Enter Chan). Kuen Suet Daai Ji are the students that use the fist (Kuen) to develop skill (Suet).

Grand Master Gee doesn’t teach Chan and then try to relate Wing Chun to it. Instead, the Hung Fa Yi system directly corresponds and directly relates to Chan on every level of training and discussion. There is no separation between the two.

As I mentioned above, some systems that come out of the Shaolin Temples do not emphasize the direct teaching of Chan in the martial practice and instead focus primarily on fighting or health with Chan also available. If the essence of Shaolin is Chan and the martial art you’re learning does not emphasize Chan, it’s just a matter of time before the martial art loses its Shaolin identity.

My main Ip Man teacher, Grand Master Moy Yat, was also a Chan practitioner. He was very philosophical in his teaching approach, based on his experience and understanding of Chan. He often spoke about True Nature and not focusing on superficial things like looks or techniques. When I came to Grand Master Gee, right from the word ‘go’ the Grand Master expressed Wing Chun to me at the reality level (Kuen Lei – laws and principles of the system), the common denominators of Time, Space, and Energy. I believe this is the mindset in the Shaolin Temple: the monks already had a clear understanding of reality, of time/space/energy, before beginning the practice of martial arts. If you do not realize the working laws that govern human anatomy in relationship to time, space, and energy, then you have no objective reference, no common ground, to begin your study of martial arts. Instead, everything you learn and do is subject to your own personal interpretation and opinion.

Right now, I see the whole discussion from Jim and especially Hendrik making comparisons based on superficial things and secondary areas of focus like health and qigong. In Shaolin, we call this Sik (techniques) and Ying (shapes/mechanics). Without touching Yi (concept) and Lei (principles), the discussion is still Fau Kiu. There’s no awareness of something more than “what you do.”

Many systems that came from the temple and that are still practiced today are actually Kuen Suet focused systems. They lost the original focus on Faat. You cannot talk about roots of a thing until you understand the true nature of a thing.

As I wrote above:
1. Hendrik can only represent himself. He is not a representative of Cho Ga or Yik Kam's Wing Chun.

2. Hendrik has not studied the majority of other Wing Chun lineages, especially the Wing Chun which contains the Shaolin DNA.

Not only are these two points still true, Hendrik remains at a Wandering Stage when it comes to Kuen Faat. From what I’ve seen so far, he hasn’t had the opportunity to study a deeper level of Shaolin knowledge based on Kuen Faat experiences. He can read about Chan but still doesn’t have any real experience; therefore, he’s disconnected.

After many, many posts and thousands of pages on the ‘Net, Hendrik is still writing at a superficial level of Sik: style, techniques, and looks & Ying: shapes, forms, and mechanics. He really doesn’t touch on the Yi (concept) stage of reality, instead focusing on techniques and looks. I don’t see a lot of mention of Economy of Motion, one of the major concepts in the Wing Chun community. It doesn’t matter how deep a discussion goes on techniques and mechanics because if the underlying concepts are incorrect, the discussion is meaningless. It would be interesting to see Hendrik or Jim tackle Economy of Motion – what is it, how is it expressed, how is it cultivated, how is it passed from generation to generation.

The discussion from Hendrik’s point of view paints a picture of Wing Chun as if writing a book on Health and Qigong only.

[Op108wc]

**Why lost the grasp of the reality?—Hendrik

??????.......

Hendrik’s posts… they’re much ado about nothing. He needs to do something to recharge his psychic batteries before he runs himself ragged.


After many, many posts and thousands of pages on the ‘Net, Hendrik is still writing at a superficial level of……..


Originally posted by Hendrik

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42737

• Do you know where you're going to?
Do you like the things that life is showing you?
Where are you going to?
Do you know?

Do you get what you're hoping for?
When you look behind you
there's no open door
What are you hoping for?
Do you know?

Once we were standing still in time
Chasing the fantasies
That filled our minds



This is not a political correct post. IT is not even a sweet post some of us love to read and discuss. It is about looking within us. Looking into our WCK. Looking and facing what we think we know but perhaps we think we know however in fact we totally lost the grasp of the reality.

Why is that happen ? Why lost the grasp of the reality? IMHO, because we sometimes place our bias, the cultural stuffs and the sifu says more important then reality of how the nature works. Thus, it becomes a disconnect where whatever we do side track away from the reality further and further.




Are we ready to look into ourself? are we ready to face how the nature running the show? facing ourself and the desire of keeping our face with whatever cost? instead of hiding within a tribe, a culture, group, a system support by the same type of people who select to have specific type of speculation as the truth comfortably. See, tribally correct within the tribe is not neccessary naturely correct and not neccessary naturely in correct....



The first thing we want to examine about SLT is the YJKYM. What is it? what is it for?

and what is the meaning/purpose of the so called Clamping the Knees to a one fist distance? Is this clamping egronomical? does it even make sense where the Chinese believe in Dao/ harmony/ following the nature where the act is not egronomical? oh, is this so called Clamping a cause to effect something or an outcome after something happen? Can the mechanical structure of the body support the activity effeciently while the physical body in static and in action?
How about the influence on the breathing? how about the influence on the different area of the legs muscle?

IMHHHO, standing there clamping the knees without knowing all of above is just similar to waiting money falling from the sky.



Similarly, people repeat again and again and again about Tai Kong or ascend or lifting the anus like a parrot. Well, samething again, Is Tai Kong a cause or an outcome of due to some other mechanism activity? what is Tai Kong does? HOw is this interact with the butt, genetile, hips join... and cog of the body?



To be honest and really honest until we all will cry.

If the above two issues could not even be solved with a common sense. How the heck is one going to discuss about the DNA of the WCK? It just doesnt make sense because one have no idea even the basic. left alone how to handle advance stuffs such as breathing, mind, emotion....etc. there are two many so called master with too many INTEPRETATION. But we dont need intepretation. what we need is BASIC. ask the Question what does it do according to the nature.


All those stories or speculation , arguement...of Yik Kam is senior, junior, Wong wah-poh is the teachers........ are entertainment subject such as the soar opera drama. Great for fantasy. those are others business. non ours to be honest. will discussing and speculating those make one better in handling one's body? or has nothing to do with it.

If you dont believe me, asked those who claim to be expert in this type of his-story and speculation. the above 2 questions and see are they even clear with their body. if not then forget about handling issue. and they are waisting thier life speculating discussing non sense, that is not the practice of what everyone preach --- WCK is the most efficient art. If the mind doing garbage how the body suppose to do great things?


But, what is the bread and butter or rice of the art? That handling, that skill... that process, that steps sequence, that states of attainment. anyone cares? or it goes back to the old egoistic answer " oh I can beat you so I know it all". Those are just non sense. There are plenty of street fighter who can beat us. because they are the nature. similar to the Golf stars or based ball stars. But for most of us, if we have no idea about the basic foundamental, left alone about mastering. we couldnt even handle our own body in a decent way.


sorry, it is political incorrect. I appology. But, I feel from heart, something needs to be said because we all care.



You know how I loved you
But my spirit was free
Laughing at the questions
That you once asked of me

Chorus: * Do you know...?

Now looking back at all we've planned
We let so many dreams
Just slip through our hands

Why must we wait so long
Before we'll see
How sad the answers
To those questions can be?


Originally posted by Mustafa
Then I wonder why you (Hendrik) keep making snide remarks in your posts about those evil "other" people (other than you and people who follow you/believe in you) who all just "speculate", "argue", only repeat what "sifu says" and don't have a clue about what you are talking about? For someone who claims to be a buddhist and following the "way/dao" and quoting the I-Ching, you sure have lots of internal demons/issues that you are still battling with. Maybe looking into yourself and dealing with your inner demons first before trying to teach others about religion/philsophy/I-Ching/Dao etc. would be a good idea.

After the last few days I don't really expect anything logical/scientific to come out of you. I reserve the right to keep commenting on your speculations, but for me it is clear that any serious, direct discussion with you is an impossibility

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42497&page=10

[Op108wc]

White Crane
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3480&d=1154771105

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3481&d=1154773292

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3482&d=1154773332

Shaolin Weng Chun
http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=3483&d=1154780797

[BennyMeng]

I was lead to something (http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=431) that someone once wrote, and read someone’s facts, and this is my responce...

My ancestor was Mencius, one of the great Confucian scholars, but yet, I’m not a Confucian scholar myself.

My grandfather was a multi-millionaire; he owned a small town in China. Today, our family’s original mansion in Northern China is occupied by ten households, but yet, I have to work hard to support my family, earning a daily income and create wealth by myself.

My father is a master chef in at least seven different types of cuisine, but yet, I am still at the stage of cooking fried rice.

Many of my teachers are legends and living legends, but yet, I’m just a student of the art.

Maybe someone should stop all this nonsense.

Thus I have heard, my knowledge, skill and experience is not by association but by first-hand interaction.

I don’t care if a person’s father is Buddha, it doesn’t say anything about the person, himself. Based on the comments I’ve seen, someone is still at the superficial level of understanding (Jiu Sik) – using relationships to establish authority. H20 might be the formula for water but you can’t drink it.

Someone needs to look at how he acts as a human being and how he acts in the martial arts community. But still, even acting perfectly in public doesn’t mean acting perfectly in private – if the mind is still distorted. So, beyond how he acts, he should also look inward to see how he thinks. This is called ‘awareness.’ And this is just the beginning.

I was lead somewhere else and read what someone else once wrote,



Q:- My teacher has the authority to teach Zen. I have seen his credentials. What is your authority and where is your proof?

A:-Buddhism only recognizes one authority. That is Mind which is also the Buddha. If you have seen Mind's nature then you have the authority, given to you by the Buddha, to do has you please. If not, then you should guard both yours words and your actions. Those who claim to have the authority to teach Zen, showing off their robes and certificates, have no authority since these things are not Mind. Over the years, I have seen that anyone, with enough money, can become a Zen master almost over night. So it proves nothing to brag about your teacher's credentials. In the past good students could recognize good teachers just by listening to a word or two. In their heart, they were searching for the one true source of all, having recognized that Mara's shadow was upon them. And because they were searching in this manner, their hearts resonated with the ideal teacher who had safely crossed to the other shore. Today, inferior students can only recognize inferior teachers judging them by looking at their wares like merchants. This implies that they only resonate with materialism and not Mind. As for proof, if you only want mouse sh!t, rather than gold, there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. Evidently, you are attached to the trappings of conventional Zen.



What else needs to be said?

[Op108wc]

With all the intrigues and hidden agendas underfoot, Hendrik will only trip himself needlessly. You don’t expect anything logical to come out of Hendrik Santo!


Originally posted by Hendrik

My sifu who is related to Shao Lin is late Ven FA Chan of Indonesia

So....!?????????????

Originally posted by YinFu

I've read a lot of your posts on the net, especially over at KFO, but never knew you (Hendrik) studied shaolin, what kind was it?