Hfy Chi Sau

[duende]

On KFO there was a recent thread in regards to Chi Sau. Many different lineages described their views on the purpose of Chi Sau and what it entailed.

From what I understood, most people on KFO felt that Chi Sau is really just a drill, although at the same time they felt it to be the "soul of WC".

In HFY, we break-down Chi Sau into three areas. This is due to the importance we put on the time, space, and energy concepts of fighting.

As many of you know, we have Kiu Sau, Chi Kiu, and Chi Sau. But in this thread, I would like to focus primarily on Chi Sau as a whole, so that others outside of the HFY experience may participate.

SO I ask you. What do you find is the purpose of Chi Sau?? How do you go about in training to achieve that purpose?? And finally, how do you think Chi Sau relates to fighting or sparring???

In HFY, Chi Sau starts out as a drill, but in the final stages of learning it is actually the begining of sparring or San Sau.

When we first start Chi Sau we divide our learning into three stages.

The focus of the stage one is: We chase space, not hands. In this stage we introduce basic flow and gate coverage.

Stage two: The focus is on our concepts of energy ie. when and when not to use it. This is taught by
giving the students and understanding of our five line concepts, and they come into play in Chi Sau

Stage three: Here the focus is on reference point checks. This helps the student to see if every thing learned in the first stages is actually being utilized in the proper manner. We do this by checking reference points, and over-all structure.

Once the student has an understanding of these techniques, and the concepts behind them we can then move on to the next level.



Finally, from what I've experienced in my learning of other systems. The focus they put on Chi Sau is primarily on sensitivity. As they feel that the developement of sensitivity awareness takes much much time.

I agree to some extent, but I also feel that the developement of sensitivity is not limited to Chi Sau, and is in fact a part of one's WC development as a whole. From my experience, sensitivity is just a part of the focus of Chi Sau. This stems from understanding on how CHI SAU relates to fighting in general, and Jit Kiu.

I will stop here as to allow some discussion.

[Op108wc]

(The focus of the stage one is: We chase space, not hands. In this stage we introduce basic flow and gate coverage.)

Yes, post yourself in the center of things--SPACE.

Then, we talk with our hands:boxing:


El

[Savi]

From the Chi Sau I have learned from the Moy Yat lineage, Chi Sau is about refined control of the lines of attack through the usage of wrist contact to the arm bridge, and destroying their arm structure to get to the body structure.

Loi Lau Hoi Sung is a tremendous focus for our energy and sensitivity training through repetitive drilling and "skill challenges".

In addition to refined control of line and structure, Tsui Ma (pushing horse), seems to be the strength of Chi Sau in contrast to other lineages I have done Chi Sau with.

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From what I have gathered from HFY's progressions of:

Saan Sik Jong Sau & Kuen Jong,
Fau Kiu Kiu Sau,
Deui Ying Kiu Sau,
Bong Laap Kiu Sau,
Kwan Sau Kiu Sau,
Siu Sing Tin Yan Dei,
Daai Sing Tin Yan Dei, and
Sup Ming Dim Daan Chi Sau...

I have to say that HFY Chi Sau can only lead to developing further skill in the wrist in concert with Muhn Jong applications, Five Line control and Ng Jan Chiu Meen Jeui Ying (the five elemental battle arrays), yes? On another note, the stages you listed on HFY Chi Sau seem to reflect training methods from Paak Sau (centerline paak, paak biu/laap, paak jong/laap methods) too, as an example...

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To me, the characteristic of a Shaolin art is that it is immediately applicable (practical), as well as reflecting simultaneity (here and now). I see Chi Sau as not JUST a drill. As with anything, drilling must progress into a clear reflection of realistic applications. I see the above listed progressions as a means to harmonize with the attacker (where a particular "Kiu Sau level" is used relative to the opponent's combative competence), and addresses striking and trapping, defenses and anti-grappling.

From this particular understanding, I only seem able to draw the conclusion that HFY Chi Sau is about anti grappling and Kiu Sau Destruction. It is the last line of defense to prevent earth-grappling (ground fighting) from being a neccesary means, and thus lose the simultaneity (two-line) of the hand and leg protection and centerline control and domination. But I could be wrong of course...

Since I have been learning HFY Kiu Sau, I have found little use of my previous training in Chi Sau... as it seems to be more than sufficient to harmonize and neutralize others' Chi Sau skill.

[Savi]

Originally posted by travelsbyknight
To me, chi sao should be about control. You control the other person's limbs so that you have 100% chance of striking. This involves a trap...

Ok: So basically I think chi sao is all about trapping. It's not about how many hits you get but how many hits you get AND how many you neutralize through trapping...

Here's my question. Chi sao is a game with rules. But when someone stronger breaks those rules and starts wrestling with you, the game becomes crap. So if a stronger person starts wrestling with you, and you can't get around that, is it your lack of skill or because he's breaking the rules that screws up chi sao?From my experience in tournaments, very few people play by the "rules". Some don't even read them. Most people just forget themselves. Not everyone though...Originally posted by anerlich
IMO chi sao competitions are for people who are afraid of real sportfighting and thus have to resort to a game where they have no real risk of getting hit hard... In a way, I'd say that's true, because some people adhere to the sportsmanship of the tournament environment. Other people are in it only to deliver pain and could care less about sports/showmanship. But I do not believe Chi Sau Tournaments to exist soley for the purpose of those who fear pain. Some people enter those tournaments and hit hard regardless of the rules.Originally posted by AndrewS
Chi sao is not a fight. It's a freakin' drill. It's there to develop certain skills useful for fighting. Different people and lines view different skills as important for fighting, and this may cause variations in the 'rules' of chi sao. Most often people who do chi sao have no idea how to fight and are doing the drill for whatever internal victory traditions have been handed down by their line.

All this being said- 'trapping' is a very small portion of fighting, an incidental occurance at best, and is quite low on my training priorities in chi sao.

Andrew All these comments tell me that we are all speaking about different areas within martial arts, rather than one particular environment. I think some people only see it as a classroom drill (instructional). Others see it from competition/sporting events (competitive). Some, I think, have touched slightly on its relationship to real combat. After reading the thread, I think people are talking on different levels, even though it's all part of the same picture.

Q1. If Chi Sau is only a drill, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q2. If Chi Sau is a game, how can it be the "soul/heart of Wing Chun"?

Q3. If Chi Sau is not about fighting, what business does it have in the Wing Chun system?

Based on that logic, #1 & 2 doesn't make sense to me. I think someone needs to ask, "Is Wing Chun about fighting or not?" If not, then I can see the first two questions as logical.

==============

I see that all combative training methods should end up as a reflection of realistic application. We are learning how to fight, based on economy of motion and superior energetics, yes? What I have learned from my training:

Drilling:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step one: build the specific body mechanics (motor skills) in relation to the exercise being learned.

Study and laboratory:(instructional and self-exploration)
Step two: enhance and refine the body/mind connection with technical knowledge of the mechanics at hand with the corresponding principles and concepts. Energetics are properly guided and developed as well. Test structural integrity and striking power against stationary hitting pads. Test structural integrity and energetics against a skilled partner.

Challenge:(real-time testing phase)
Step three: test structural awareness, reactional speed and recovery skill through real time challenges against a live aggressor in accordance to the skill being developed. Here, through experience and self-discovery is "my" Chi Sau understood in terms of proper time and space, function and purpose.

For me, Chi Sau begins as a drill/game. That should be true for all of our technique training. I feel it should not, however, stay that way.

I see Chi Sau as a last (not the first) resort of defense against a grapple attack or nose-to-nose confrontation. Head on engagements by human nature tend to lead into grabbing and/or trading hits. If you are not nose-to-nose with the attacker, I do not think the sophistication of Chi Sau is remotely neccesary.

From what I have learned,
1. Structural preservation and energy application: Chi Sau (coupled with footwork tactics) is the systematic use of wrist contact and control for close-range fighting, requiring highly sophisticated energetics in accordance with the same principles and concepts that guide body structure.

2. Gate theories: It is designed to keep an opponent from bypassing the inside line of defense (Wu Sau distance), should preliminary defenses fail.

3. Counter-measures: Chi Sau allows one to prevent the attacker from taking you into groundfighting, by use of bridge control and manipulation in all directions. Should one lose that control from the bridge, grappling is the only option left (provided the attacker has forward intent) due to the proximity of range.

WRT competition, Chi Sau tournaments are designed to test your ability to Chi Sau for prolonged amounts of time. It is not about fighting. If you want another option to test your Chi Sau skill in "simulated fighting" (as close to real fighting, but still bounded by rules), go to the full contact fighting section and test it.

This has been my experience in Chi Sau, and obviously what is true for me might not be true for someone else.

[Op108wc]

Chi Sau does not pass for what it is but for what it seems. To be of use and to know how to show it, is to be twice as useful for fighting.

Is Chi sau for fighting? Let me put it this way--WHAT IS NOT SEEN IS AS IF IT WAS NOT. EVEN THE RIGHT DOES NOT RECEIVE PROPER CONSIDERATION IF IT DOESN NOT SEEM RIGHT.

[Savi]

Originally posted by Op108wc
Chi Sau does not pass for what it is but for what it seems. To be of use and to know how to show it, is to be twice as useful for fighting.

Is Chi sau for fighting? Let me put it this way--WHAT IS NOT SEEN IS AS IF IT WAS NOT. EVEN THE RIGHT DOES NOT RECEIVE PROPER CONSIDERATION IF IT DOESN NOT SEEM RIGHT. Excellent post! I can certainly agree with what you said!

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Still Absorbing, letting it Sink in, trying to keep the Rise of non-opinion out of mind, Sending info of this to my hands. Just Doing some thinking with Openness!
More please!!!!!

[duende]

Sorry it took so long to get back to you all...

In regards to what Savi said about Anti-grappling.

One major difference between HFY Chi Sao and other WC Chi Sau, is our obvious usage and concepts of Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.

It used to be that you would often here a WC man say that chi sau is not for fighting, it is only for drilling. That is not as quite as common anymore do to many circumstances that I shall not go into. But in application, you can easily see why they would say this...

Take for example how many WC schools only drill Chi Sau from a prepared static positioning. However in HFY, you will find this start point only at the very early stages of Chi Sau progressions. For us it quicky evolves into starting from a San Sau, or Fau Kiu vantage point.

Another example of why I think they said that Chi Sau is only for training, is because they do not have Kiu Sau, or Chi Kiu.

Think about it, how would you like to be blind sided, and then have to jump directly into a parallel facing where you and your oponent both have simultaneous attack and defense. Where time and space is not at your advantage, but rather is distorted in nature.

A great analogy of this that I've learned is the comparison of Chi Sau to a manual transmission automobile.

How would you like to be sitting idle, and suddenly have to shift gears into third.

Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu allow us to have time and space on our side. We can shift between first and second and third and back with out having our gears jammed, or time and space compromised.

If a Jit Kiu phase occurs, we are prepared for it. Are hands are in harmony with are footwork. Our house has a strong foundation.

[Op108wc]

(One major difference between HFY Chi Sao and other WC Chi Sau, is our obvious usage and concepts of Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.)

Mike Gonzales is very proud to be a HFY practioner...that he's smart enough to get to know more about HFY Chi Sau from GM Gee.



(On another occasion in the late 1980’s a student (Mike Gonzales.) with 6 years of Wing Chun experience and a graduate of the whole system asked if he could touch hands with Sifu Gee. This encounter opened up the eyes of Mike and over the next four and one half months he spent every Saturday driving more than one and one half hours to the location where Sifu Gee was teaching to ask Sifu Gee to give him private lessons. During this period of 1975 - 1995, Sifu Gee did not teach openly to the public which is why Mike had to convince Sifu Gee to teach him. Mike persisted for so long that Sifu Gee eventually agreed to teach Mike 20 hours of private lessons. The first lesson was to take place the following Saturday and Mike was to meet Sifu at a specific park at 3 o’clock in the morning and was used as method of testing the dedication and loyalty of the student.. At the time of the first lesson Sifu Gee was not sure if Mike would show up because it was raining very hard. Mike was persistent and did show up that lesson as well as the others.)

http://www.hungfakwoon.com/Gee%20Photos2.htm

[Savi]

Originally posted by duende
Sorry it took so long to get back to you all...

In regards to what Savi said about Anti-grappling.

One major difference between HFY Chi Sao and other WC Chi Sau, is our obvious usage and concepts of Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu.

It used to be that you would often here a WC man say that chi sau is not for fighting, it is only for drilling. That is not as quite as common anymore do to many circumstances that I shall not go into. But in application, you can easily see why they would say this...

Take for example how many WC schools only drill Chi Sau from a prepared static positioning. However in HFY, you will find this start point only at the very early stages of Chi Sau progressions. For us it quicky evolves into starting from a San Sau, or Fau Kiu vantage point.

Another example of why I think they said that Chi Sau is only for training, is because they do not have Kiu Sau, or Chi Kiu.

Think about it, how would you like to be blind sided, and then have to jump directly into a parallel facing where you and your oponent both have simultaneous attack and defense. Where time and space is not at your advantage, but rather is distorted in nature.

A great analogy of this that I've learned is the comparison of Chi Sau to a manual transmission automobile.

How would you like to be sitting idle, and suddenly have to shift gears into third.

Kiu Sau and Chi Kiu allow us to have time and space on our side. We can shift between first and second and third and back with out having our gears jammed, or time and space compromised.

If a Jit Kiu phase occurs, we are prepared for it. Are hands are in harmony with are footwork. Our house has a strong foundation. This thread seemed to have escaped my attention for a while! Shame on me!

While it seems this thread is in concert with Sir William's Chi Sau thread, I really like the analogy of shifting gears. I also like the analogy of putting your seatbelt on before you drive.

I think the more and more people are seeing their WC as lacking in certain areas, the more they are getting convinced that MMA is the way for them to go (check out Sigung Meng's thread on MMA in this sub-forum). Yet for us we see no need for such an extreme because the parts simply do not have any holes. It is a solid system.

Can Chi Sau have any practical meaning if only from a developmental standpoint alone?

Oftentimes both my Sifu and Sigung Meng say that your training must be a reflection of real combat. If you never escape the bubble of body mechanics, then that is a problem.

But as Op108wc said, "Chi Sau does not pass for what it is but for what it seems. To be of use and to know how to show it, is to be twice as useful for fighting."