why the lineage/history from northern and southern shaolin ist often mixed?

[YanWu]

When I search through many websites about southern shaolin styles, in nearly every page the history about the southern shaolin monastery is not clearly described. Often it is mixed with the history of the northern monastery.

Why?

[JamesHFYofAZ]

YanWu, I am wondering which web sites you are referring to and if you have visited the VTM web site? It would be hard to answer a question of something I know little about or am not a part of. Also, another good question would be, since you know that it's incorrect to your information, Why do you let it bother you so?

[passing_through]

Looking at the history of China and Shaolin, Northern Shaolin was established in the 500s while the Southern Shaolin was established in the 600s at the behest of Abbot Tan Zong. Both temples were fairly self-contained but show up in historical records from time to time. More research is underway in regards to the Southern temple due to the manner of its destruction. Ultimately, the reason for its destruction is the cause of much of the confusion.

The Southern Temple was politically involved in supporting the Ming against the Qing in the 1600s. While it had been a temple for over 1000 years, during the Ming/Qing transition - a period of time from 1644-1683 - monks from the Northern Temple came to support the Southern Temple. The Southern temple was destroyed in the early 1670s and was completely razed. The Qing persecuted and killed anybody associated with the Southern Shaolin. Out of the chaos and destruction of the temple, many Tong were organized but out of a need for secrecy, information was not kept clear or standard. This created a situation where people coming out of the Southern Temple and now located throughout Southern China might have connections to either Northern Shaolin or Southern Shaolin. Now, add to the mix old Northern Shaolin and Southern Shaolin systems new Southern Shaolin systems, it is clear that confusion as to points-of-origin would be the rule of the day. Also – there was a fire at the Northern Temple in the early 1700s and there is some evidence that the secret societies used this fire as a way to confuse or hide information – deliberately mixing information about the destruction of the Southern Temple with the fire in the Northern Temple.

Now, imagine this situation continuing through many generations for about 200 years and that takes us up to the Opium Wars and the Boxers' Rebellion. At that time there was a fracturing within the secret societies - some becoming criminal organizations, some political and some private. After the failure of the Boxers' Rebellion and the political repercussions, common Chinese people looked at being involved in martial arts organizations as something very bad - they didn't make a distinction between private, criminal or political motivations.

So, to sum up - records were sparse in the first place then destroyed with the Southern Temple, potentially mixed up due to the environment (war time), political considerations made keeping clear records a recipe for suicide - and things went from there over several hundred years. In recent years things are getting better - with time and distance, research is continuing into the chaotic years between 1644 and 1870s. Records become much clearer in the 1800s but are not so clear prior to that – the timeframe when the secret societies were most politically active in China.

Another point of confusion is that Shaolin lineage names are based on a poem written by Abbot Fu Yue (aka Fu Yu). Unfortunately, there are three versions of that poem (I've got copies to two of them) and research is continuing to ascertain the reason for the variations.

Finally, many people that have websites on Southern Shaolin haven’t done much research into Shaolin – they most often write what has been handed down to them. For information on some of the latest research, visit the following article: The Holy Land Of Martial Arts Southern Shaolin Temple (http://home.vtmuseum.org/articles/meng/holy_land.php)

I hope this helps to put the story of Northern and Southern lineage lines in context.

Sincerely,
Jeremy R.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Well said Sisuk!