Understanding Kiu Range

[Eric]

Hello all. At the encouragement of some of my sihing, I've decided to bring some of my questions reguarding kiu sao range online. I appreciate any comment which can help my understanding grow.

Kiu Range: Is kiu range defined by forearm contact on the bridge, by the inability to strike, the neccessity to cover shoulder-to-should space or by distance from the opponent?

For example, when a kiu intercepts and then moves to striking, has this moment no longer become kiu sao? Is every strike a chi sao moment?

When contact is made on the bridge in a forearm position, and is maintained there as the kiu collapses a structure ,the space has changed. The practioner is now much closer to his opponent, is this technically still "kiu sao" because of contact, even though the practitioner may physically be closer to his opponent?

When changing from kiu to chi and back to kiu, does one's horse neccesarily need to advance and retreat, or is this merely a definition by bridge contact position? Basically, is relative body position the defining factor or is it the bridge?

Thank you in advance to all who reply.

[William E]

Eric

Thank you very much for taking the initiative for posting some of your questions and thoughts… Since there are soooo many questions maybe we should start from the beginning and start to define some common ground.

It is my hope that more and more people will jump in with their ideas and comments.

First thing, I would like to point out that there three main training tracks in HFY which relate to one another;

Kui Sau – Contact from above the wrist to forearm.
Chi Kui – Contact transitioning from forearm to wrist.
Chi Sau – Wrist contact.


Kiu Range: Is kiu range defined by forearm contact on the bridge, by the inability to strike, the neccessity to cover shoulder-to-should space or by distance from the opponent?

In order to define the proper range you need to identify which stage of Kui Sau you are talking about: Fau Kui, Deui Ying, Bong/Loop, Kwan Sau, Saan Da. Each trains something very specific. For example, the Fau Kui represents someone who is attacking you from out of your peripheral vision or from the blind side. There are three different progressions with each training a different energy level of the person attacking. (first progression the attacker is just touching your shoulder, second progression the attacker has a grasp of your clothing and the third progression is when the attacker is intending to throw a punch).

For example, when a kiu intercepts and then moves to striking, has this moment no longer become kiu sao? Is every strike a chi sao moment?

The first comment I would make here is that in HFY we are not so quick to strike. When it is the right time to strike we strike but we first have to have time on our side which means being in a superior position to our opponent. When we do strike we typically have destroyed out opponents structure and ability to defend themselves which is known as chum kui. This could be illustrated by the following example of the first progression of Fau Kui Kui Sau. One my attacker touches my shoulder my response is to uplift my arm (in the proper position with thumb pointing down) making contact at my opponents elbow, lifting and maintaining forward energy to the point where my fingers are pointing right at my opponents eyes. At this point I’ve destroyed his structure and regained my sense or harmony. He has a couple of options at this point. If he turns towards my to attack he will get an eye full of fingers. If he tries to throw a punch with the other hand we engage with a gaan sau and move into mo ying da yeng positon but I still haven't hit anything yet (or what is referred to as the rolling position). His third option is for him to walk away, no harm no foul. So no, not every strike is a chi sau moment.

When contact is made on the bridge in a forearm position, and is maintained there as the kiu collapses a structure ,the space has changed. The practioner is now much closer to his opponent, is this technically still "kiu sao" because of contact, even though the practitioner may physically be closer to his opponent?

The whole idea behind Kui Sau is to maintain space with your bridge arm. If you Kui collapses then we move into the Chi Kui range or even directly to the Chi Sau range.

When changing from kiu to chi and back to kiu, does one's horse neccesarily need to advance and retreat, or is this merely a definition by bridge contact position? Basically, is relative body position the defining factor or is it the bridge?

First of all I would say that we don’t intentionally train from Kui Sau to Chi Kui and then to Chi Sau. Each one is trained in its own methodologies and progressions.

I think a better discussion here would be on each of the different progressions.

Anyone else have any comments.

William E.

[duende]

I think William did a great job explaining things. You can also check out the HFY Chi Sau thread in the public forum for more info.

I would only add that you really shouldn't be thinking about striking yet. That time will come. All three areas of Chi Sau (Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu/Chi Sau) can enable the right time and space for a strike. There's no sequence to fighting right??? It's all random. Therefore these three area of Chi Sau are more about the kind of Body Mechanics and Technical Knowledge that should be used at various timeframes.

Kiu Sau is the safest because it occurs in Joi Ying and your opponent should have a long arm/short arm handicap.

Understanding proper Kiu Sau energy and control is the hardest part. Knowing and recognizing this timeframe with a proper self-centerline and footwork is also hard. Striking and penetrating from this timeframe is not.

That's why I say don't worry about striking. When you are ready, there will be no questions.

[Eric]

William and duende, thanks for the comments!


I guess a better question to have asked in this situation would have been in what facility should I be looking at kiu sao? Is kiu sao a timeframe, a tool, or a tactic?

I'm sure in reality it is all three of these things, but which is it's governing purpose?

I guess in trying to relate it, I'm looking at this question as such: A penny is a great portrait of abraham lincoln, but is that it's main function? Does anyone understand where I'm driving with this?

[William E]

Eric

Let me try and clarify things a bit and give you my understanding which is constantly evolving and growing. In order to understand Kui Sau you need to understand the following:

- the history behind Kui Sau
- the correct body mechanics (the right tool to use for the job at hand)
- the technical knowledge behind what you’re trying to do
- the philosophy behind what you’re doing

History
HFY was developed at the Shaolin temple at a time when most animal style kung fu incorporated some sort of grappling or chin na. In one sense Kui Sau could be considered a form of anti-grappling (as we practiced tonight in class). Other styles use the term Kui Sau (bridge hand) but the meaning is not specific or means something totally different like a form of forearm conditioning. The one branch of WC that shares Kui Sau as well as Tin Yan Dei is Chi Sim WC.

Body Mechanics
You have to take a look at each progression independently to understand the intricacies of each. Take for example once again, the first progression of Fau Kui Kui Sau (someone grabbing me from the blind side as we both as standing next to each other facing in the same direction). There are many ways to attempt to move the hand off my shoulder but only one that provides the best structure. If I hold my arm out at a 90% angle from my body with my palm facing towards the ground my structure is weak and can be easily challenged by someone doing a pak sau and forcing it back. There are several reasons why this structure is weak including the fact that you’ve introduced a hinge at the elbow that can be collapsed. Now the best structure would be for me to turn my arm so that the back of my hand is facing forward. The same pak sau has little effect to this solid structure. This is the correct “tool” to do this job.

Technical Knowledge
Using the proper arm structure defined above I am going to focus my intent on uplifting my opponents arm contacting his elbow first and moving it up and forward. The amount I move forward is very specific. Also keep in mind that I am still facing forward with my shoulders square. If I attempt to turn towards my opponent I will be giving up my forward energy and I provide an opening. My fingers should be right in front of his eyes so that if he attempts to turn and rush me he will be in for a surprise. Once I’ve accomplished my goal of moving the arm to the proper space I turn and attack my opponent with my opposite hand gaan sau forcing him to defend himself with a bon sau or possibly he might get hit. At this point you have your arms on the outside-outside position and we could fall back and create a whole new paragraph on the body mechanics of this position but it technically falls into the Deui Ying Kui Sau category. Can you see how there are many layers. This would be the basics for this progressions where the more advanced topic would be the application of Tin Yan Dei to the mix which is a whole discussion in of itself. Maybe Duende can follow-up on the other thread on this one…

Principles
The principles that guide the Fau Kui Kui Sau would be the Kuen Kuits “No Shape Hit Shadow” and “Have Shape, Hit Shape”. No shape refers to the fact that I’m being attacked from the blind side and implies that I maintain my forward facing focus which maintains forward energy. Hitting the shadow first defines where the shadow line is on my opponent (point at which he looses peripheral vision) and is the target for my gaan sau with the opposite hand. Once I have shape or an in a strategically better position than before when I had no shape I may be in a position to think about hitting.

Kui Sau defines where on our arm we make contact. Each progression is a little different but we want to maintain forearm contact and not let the wrists start to touch. Each progression helps us deal with a different situation using different tools and tactics (Each obeying the HFY formula). It allows us to operate at a range that allows for anti-grappling.

Hope this helps…

William E.