passing_through
02-27-2004, 09:13 PM
I found this somewhere online... when I read it, it occured to me that the author is not making a distinction between methods and system. In looking at the training methods used for beginners, he is dismissing an entire body of knowledge... What do other people think? Is this assessment fair and accurate? Does this person have enough of an understanding of the topics at hand to be making any conclusions?
I'm posting to this forum because I think the experience and training the author of the post undertook was under the Ip Man lineage.
Sincerely,
Jeremy R.
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Wing Chun - review of its training methods and effectiveness
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I trained WC for approximately 1 year. I put my heart and soul into it and rarely missed a day. Even when there was no lesson I spent my time refining what I had been taught.
I have also now experienced many other fighting styles, including Karate, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, Thai Boxing and Combatives. As a police officer I have fought for real many times.
So here is my overall review of the Wing Chun style. I do, of course, recognise that there are now many versions of it but, for the most part, I believe that to be people merely trying to remarket the same core system in an attempt to gain money.
Forms
There are three main forms (or Katas for our Japanese stylists) in WC. I trained the first one only. Often the movements were both repetitive and slow. Practice was meant to somehow enhance your understanding and feel for a technique and this would lead to you becoming more effective. They were also mean't to keep some kind of record of the WC syllabus.
It didn't and it doesn't make you more effective. And in this day of video and DVD there is no need to keep this record. Lost of training time was wasted performing these useless movements. There was no opponent, no resistance, no timing, no power etc. etc. etc. Forms are part of martial arts mythology, and they were a substantial part of the training.
Put it this way, Mike Tyson never needed Forms, and he got pretty effective. Wasted time.
Basic Techniques
The basic punch held the fist vertical and relied on alot of speed in delivery for power. There was only limited body projection behind it. As such it was quite weak. I saw heard a well known WC practitioner write that "a highly trained WC punch can be as hard as the average man's wild swing". Hardly something to brag about. In fairness, though, a good WC man could throw 3 or 4 of these punches before the average mans wild swing was complete.
The style is structurally very fast. Movements are kept to a minimum, and straight punches are the norm. Remember Bruce Lee talking of "economy of motion"? Well, he got it from WC. They have Bil Jee (or "thrusting fingers"), and I do think that this is an excellent variation for self defence. However, this could only be used in the most extreme conditions, and it's use could be nullified by the grappler. Structurally fast yes, but also structurally weak.
Stances are poor, with weight often on the back leg. With the weight so far back, a good shove in the chest and over you'd go. Also the movement was effected. So moving around was almost like hopping. And they stick their chins out. Its like a Boxers birthday party.
Blocking and parrying was OK. They had ways to subtley guide attacks away, rather than the Neanderthal linear blocks that I had seen before (from Karate). I did take some of these moves away with me and incorporate them into my training. Again, something of use.
Chi Sao (or "sticky hands")
This is where they learn to react to their opponents energy through touch. The limbs are rolled, and then strikes made. The opponent tries to redirect these strikes and then counter etc.
It is all too civilised. Each person is politely keeping the correct distance, and torso's stay erect. I contrast it with Senshido's idea of tactile sensitivity. Here both combatants are performing standing grappling. training is hard, unscripted and spontaneous. It is also a position much more akin to a real fight. He can sense his opponents energy through his body movement too, but it is a world away from the arm fencing of WC Chi Sao. Wasted time.
Trapping
Linked with Chi Sao, it is where you can momentarly immobilise an opponents limb to create a gap for your own attack. It is much too complex for real fighting and I have never seen it used in a real fight.
There is a case, for example, for grab and remove the opponents lead hand, then fire a puch into the face etc. But this simple move does not need hours of fancy looking training. More wasted time.
WC Dummy
I did no training on this, so my comments do not come from real experience. I opine that it could be of some use, since it provides "limbs" to deal with as you train. But its rigid striking surface is useless for power generation. I personally have a "Spar Pro", which is basically like a tailor's dummy (just head and torso) that you can hit. Something like this is better for striking practice. But, if it had some kind of "arms" like the WC Dummy, it would be better.
Grappling.
None, zero, zilch. Real fights can go to the floor. WC has no answer for what to do then. Sure they have now developed this "Anti Grappling". But it isn't good. We only have two legs and, as such, are relatively easy to knock over. This lack of grappling is a massive flaw in a supposed overall fighting style.
Wall Bags
These are filled with hard beans (or whatever) and hand on the wall like a picture. I trained with one of these alot. OK to hit, but not brilliant. The bag never moves like a real person, so it is too easy to "apply" your techniques. A punchbag moves all over the place. I have seen WC men work out on punch bags and, because of the lack of power and poor stances, they look pretty silly doing it.
Kicks
They never kicked higher than the groin, which is good. But they were rarely practiced, and never against a striking aid. As such, they were not trained to the level required for appplcation. I won't even mention "sticky legs". It is too ridiculous.
General training
Most of the training is done against thin air. I do think that this is useful if you are learning a technique for the first time, or "shadow boxing" (but doing it properly, as a spontaneous mental training aid). But to spend the majority of your time hitting thin air? Rubbish. All you do is get better at hitting air, and it does NOT translate into hitting people. No, I don't think you should batter your training partners all the time (but full contact training should occur), but I do believe that you should be hitting things.
General training was a general waste of time. It was made worse by the "we are the best" attitude of many of the instructors, who theorised how it was so.
Relevance to Self Protection
Issues like awareness, avoidance, posturing, threat assessment etc etc etc. were not addressed one iota. These isues were totally unknown to the so called instructors. They were training people how to mess around in a training hall. They were not training them how to survive in the big bad world.
I bet there are people who can make WC work. But they will be near the top of the WC tree, AND they will be in the minority.
OK, I know I've been a bit unkind in other threads. But so what? This is my view for all to see. And all this "you only spent a year at it" is really weak. I am an experienced student of fighting arts, and an experienced fighter. One year should be plenty time to learn to apply a GOOD fighting art. Especially the extent of training I undertook. But I couldn't apply it.
From WC I took some of the parrying movements and the bil jee (which I have now rejected in favour of other ways to throw the fingers). Not alot to show for all that work.
from http://pub228.ezboard.com/ftaekwondo67109frm26.showMessage?topicID=125.topic
I'm posting to this forum because I think the experience and training the author of the post undertook was under the Ip Man lineage.
Sincerely,
Jeremy R.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wing Chun - review of its training methods and effectiveness
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I trained WC for approximately 1 year. I put my heart and soul into it and rarely missed a day. Even when there was no lesson I spent my time refining what I had been taught.
I have also now experienced many other fighting styles, including Karate, Japanese Jiu Jitsu, Grappling, Thai Boxing and Combatives. As a police officer I have fought for real many times.
So here is my overall review of the Wing Chun style. I do, of course, recognise that there are now many versions of it but, for the most part, I believe that to be people merely trying to remarket the same core system in an attempt to gain money.
Forms
There are three main forms (or Katas for our Japanese stylists) in WC. I trained the first one only. Often the movements were both repetitive and slow. Practice was meant to somehow enhance your understanding and feel for a technique and this would lead to you becoming more effective. They were also mean't to keep some kind of record of the WC syllabus.
It didn't and it doesn't make you more effective. And in this day of video and DVD there is no need to keep this record. Lost of training time was wasted performing these useless movements. There was no opponent, no resistance, no timing, no power etc. etc. etc. Forms are part of martial arts mythology, and they were a substantial part of the training.
Put it this way, Mike Tyson never needed Forms, and he got pretty effective. Wasted time.
Basic Techniques
The basic punch held the fist vertical and relied on alot of speed in delivery for power. There was only limited body projection behind it. As such it was quite weak. I saw heard a well known WC practitioner write that "a highly trained WC punch can be as hard as the average man's wild swing". Hardly something to brag about. In fairness, though, a good WC man could throw 3 or 4 of these punches before the average mans wild swing was complete.
The style is structurally very fast. Movements are kept to a minimum, and straight punches are the norm. Remember Bruce Lee talking of "economy of motion"? Well, he got it from WC. They have Bil Jee (or "thrusting fingers"), and I do think that this is an excellent variation for self defence. However, this could only be used in the most extreme conditions, and it's use could be nullified by the grappler. Structurally fast yes, but also structurally weak.
Stances are poor, with weight often on the back leg. With the weight so far back, a good shove in the chest and over you'd go. Also the movement was effected. So moving around was almost like hopping. And they stick their chins out. Its like a Boxers birthday party.
Blocking and parrying was OK. They had ways to subtley guide attacks away, rather than the Neanderthal linear blocks that I had seen before (from Karate). I did take some of these moves away with me and incorporate them into my training. Again, something of use.
Chi Sao (or "sticky hands")
This is where they learn to react to their opponents energy through touch. The limbs are rolled, and then strikes made. The opponent tries to redirect these strikes and then counter etc.
It is all too civilised. Each person is politely keeping the correct distance, and torso's stay erect. I contrast it with Senshido's idea of tactile sensitivity. Here both combatants are performing standing grappling. training is hard, unscripted and spontaneous. It is also a position much more akin to a real fight. He can sense his opponents energy through his body movement too, but it is a world away from the arm fencing of WC Chi Sao. Wasted time.
Trapping
Linked with Chi Sao, it is where you can momentarly immobilise an opponents limb to create a gap for your own attack. It is much too complex for real fighting and I have never seen it used in a real fight.
There is a case, for example, for grab and remove the opponents lead hand, then fire a puch into the face etc. But this simple move does not need hours of fancy looking training. More wasted time.
WC Dummy
I did no training on this, so my comments do not come from real experience. I opine that it could be of some use, since it provides "limbs" to deal with as you train. But its rigid striking surface is useless for power generation. I personally have a "Spar Pro", which is basically like a tailor's dummy (just head and torso) that you can hit. Something like this is better for striking practice. But, if it had some kind of "arms" like the WC Dummy, it would be better.
Grappling.
None, zero, zilch. Real fights can go to the floor. WC has no answer for what to do then. Sure they have now developed this "Anti Grappling". But it isn't good. We only have two legs and, as such, are relatively easy to knock over. This lack of grappling is a massive flaw in a supposed overall fighting style.
Wall Bags
These are filled with hard beans (or whatever) and hand on the wall like a picture. I trained with one of these alot. OK to hit, but not brilliant. The bag never moves like a real person, so it is too easy to "apply" your techniques. A punchbag moves all over the place. I have seen WC men work out on punch bags and, because of the lack of power and poor stances, they look pretty silly doing it.
Kicks
They never kicked higher than the groin, which is good. But they were rarely practiced, and never against a striking aid. As such, they were not trained to the level required for appplcation. I won't even mention "sticky legs". It is too ridiculous.
General training
Most of the training is done against thin air. I do think that this is useful if you are learning a technique for the first time, or "shadow boxing" (but doing it properly, as a spontaneous mental training aid). But to spend the majority of your time hitting thin air? Rubbish. All you do is get better at hitting air, and it does NOT translate into hitting people. No, I don't think you should batter your training partners all the time (but full contact training should occur), but I do believe that you should be hitting things.
General training was a general waste of time. It was made worse by the "we are the best" attitude of many of the instructors, who theorised how it was so.
Relevance to Self Protection
Issues like awareness, avoidance, posturing, threat assessment etc etc etc. were not addressed one iota. These isues were totally unknown to the so called instructors. They were training people how to mess around in a training hall. They were not training them how to survive in the big bad world.
I bet there are people who can make WC work. But they will be near the top of the WC tree, AND they will be in the minority.
OK, I know I've been a bit unkind in other threads. But so what? This is my view for all to see. And all this "you only spent a year at it" is really weak. I am an experienced student of fighting arts, and an experienced fighter. One year should be plenty time to learn to apply a GOOD fighting art. Especially the extent of training I undertook. But I couldn't apply it.
From WC I took some of the parrying movements and the bil jee (which I have now rejected in favour of other ways to throw the fingers). Not alot to show for all that work.
from http://pub228.ezboard.com/ftaekwondo67109frm26.showMessage?topicID=125.topic