Huh? What?

[Louie]

now that we have got a chance to train our new anti grappling Chi sao a little...... ( sorry dont have notes w/ for real name) and can now have somewhat of aright to speak on it.

I have been trying to train this as much as possible w/ the whole Tien Yahn Dei Concept.

not completly comfortable with this yet. but am pretty sure only one person really is.

one thing I noticed is when I am not paying attention, my motions turn into a Yipman Style chi sao thingy:eek:

but am able to correct this when I feel the other side doing the same thing.

any other observations?:confused:

[Louie]

I guess no one else has observed anything.
or doesnt train or something.

[William E]

Louie

I read your original post the other day and had intentions to respond but haven't had a chance.

I believe you were referring to the centerline chi sau we were practising during the seminar which is different in feel than the 5-line chi sau.

The identity, as I think of it, of this type of chi sau is

- "Lai Lau Heui Sung" or when the energy comes receive and when it goes escort it.
- Focus is on the Human gate
- Is used typically against someone that is tying to grab you
- Teaches us how to occupy the center and penetrate with a specific type of bon sau or be able to receive the energy while mainting the arm position above your opponent (still on the human gate)
- Teaches us how this is as much developing the kui sau areas of our arms
- Keep the elbows in

Sounds like you and you're partner (wonder who that is) are using too much resisting energy and are not working together. This typically results is a "locking" position which would then require you to move into the 5-line chi sau which has a different level of energy and feel.

I would suggest starting at square one and really relax and try to be as soft as possible. Allow your arms to be on center and still feel the movement back and forth. This, to me, would be the starting point for any beginners. Once you're comfortable with this then you can start to add the proper structure where your elbows are in and your are now sliding against your partners arms.

Hope this helps...

William E.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

My thoughts on the centerline Chi Sau start with learning
A) Finding center and occupying it with structure.
B) Moving my structure In and out as I feel my opponents energy.
C) Trying to find that fulcrum of the forearm.
I try to stay light on energies but still complement my partner’s energy (LLHS). I found that when I am not focused on center of penetrating that center Through the man gate, I go into more of the YM style chi Sau, Bad habits are hard to break. I figure If my partner has to much energy in the hands take it to five line CS and let them know what their Inefficiency where. When practicing the grab in the man gate I noticed that one must still look at opponents’ position of his arms. Reality tells me that when he shoots for my chest region I answer with a corkscrew motion down the centerline in search of opponents center. This is done with arm energies and not the body pushing forward constituting a lean.
From the attackers point of view:
I had one of my sidi's as a test dummy one day and we practiced this for a while. One thing that I noticed when he attracted was that his arm energies stopped at bridging and where not really challenging the man region. I noticed when I attacked him with a similar tactic, by using chum kiu instead of a grab to the chest, His bridge was not sensitive enough to change/understand and time of engagement space was not met with the right energy. But when I went to grab elbows out (Yang Lines) With more of an extended arm (basic street grab), it was easily defeated.
TBC, James

[Savi]

Here part of the notes I have compiled/gathered from the SF trip:

Jung Sien Ji Ngh Kiu Chi Sau “Yin Energy”= Centerline Meridian Bridge Sticking Hands

*Ji Ng Kiu (JNK) = Meridian Bridge, the middle of bridging

JSJNKCS, the focus is on gaining a sense of Deui Ying Concept. The purpose of this tool is to address Human Gate attacks from punches to grabs, stressing the usage of Ji Ng Kiu in two basic postures. Here is where the teaching format of Chi Sau is introduced in HFY, using the forearm. We covered three progressions, understanding that the intent behind Chi Sau is to slow down the timeframe of the attacker to prevent grappling. The latter would be the Saan Da Timeframe, where timeframe is sped up.

Ji Ng Kiu is intended to neutralize; to put time on your side and open up the center in the Human Gate.

In the first progression, we start at a Bai Jong timeframe. The initial focus is on developing a sense of Ji Ng Kiu, and experiencing how to engage the attack with the Ji Ng Kiu and forward energy. Person B comes in with a double-hand grab or single punch entering the Human Gate. Person A reacts with the Bong/Fuk or Tan/Fuk structure aiming to maintain his/her time and space using Ji Ng Kiu. Person A must maintain the intent of not stepping backwards while engaging. This timeframe is only an initial introduction, thus building reaction/essence in Person A.

In the second progression, Persons A and B are at Kiu Sau range. Both persons are practicing the Bong/Fuk and Tan/Fuk postures. The key focuses involve engaging the Ji Ng Kiu with forward *water* energy in a pulsing fashion and occupying center space. The idea is to use relaxed penetration rather than muscle. There are NO hard energies. We allow the other person to enter our space until the Ji Ng Kiu is engaged. Bong Sau only has forward (not upward) intent with a drilling-type motion, aiming to get the Fuk Sau up at the Ji Ng Kiu. The Bong Sau wrist angles such that the fingertips face the center space, using the cork-screw motion, and the elbow is at shoulder-height. Bong/Fuk and Tan/Fuk must stay in the Man gate as well, having BOTH wrists on the centerline vertically.

In the third progression, a punch is thrown from the Fuk Sau when over the Bong Sau. Bong Sau turns into Taan Sau (crane’s beak) raising up to the Minus Yin/high ref and drops to mid ref. From there it becomes a Side Palm Strike to the high ref and is countered by Gahn Sau. Then we reset back into progression two.

=================

I am hoping that what I have posted here is accurate.

I am also presuming all that was presented in the seminar would be under the Body Mechanics area focus and was concept-oriented. I can see from my own experiences that it is without a doubt, combat effective! I am eager to find out more about it...

[JamesHFYofAZ]

1) How does this relate to combat?
2) What is there behind all the lagistics?
3) Where does one see the consept Aplied?
4) When is the right time to make it work?
5) Why is it important, Why not just use Five line?

[William E]

Hey Louie where are you? What do you think of the information that has been presented?

You're probably busy like the rest of us but hopefully you haven't left the forum.

William E.

[Louie]

no havent left just observing.
also just got back from Orlando


some good insight and observation not so much the technical knowledge but it kind of lets you see where a person is at, as far as there thinking and training.

also I have really been trying to focus on the concepts rather than techniques and this always clears up any confusion.

occupy space then neutralize, rather than bridge in the human gate with the forearms.

[William E]

Hi Louie

Glad to see you're still lurking on the forum.

I would like to point out one thing that I noticed from your last post.

also I have really been trying to focus on the concepts rather than techniques and this always clears up any confusion.
occupy space then neutralize, rather than bridge in the human gate with the forearms.


There is a distinction between single hand and double hand chi sau in HFY.

In single hand we are concerned with occupying the space.

In the double hand, centerline chi sau we are concerned with the bridging arm and how it penetrates the opponents arm in bon sau or how it recieves the energy and maintains the proper connection and energy when the hand is on the top.

Hope all is well with your training.

William E.

[Louie]

cool thanks for clearing that up.
its easy to get confused sometimes.

P.S. im always lurking somewheres

[William E]

Louie

I'm glad that you made the connection from my last post.

Don't worry, then next time we meet will be fine for you to give me the gift you bought me from Orlando.... :)

What other stuff have you been training in AZ these days...

Regards,

William E.

[Louie]

havent been able to make it to class cause of schooling schedule.
so dont know what is trained in kwoon.

but do train with various other folks from school outside of school.

we do train the tien yahn dei as far as the chi sao is concerned.

also we train fau kiu kiu sau.

Pak sau is a crowd favorite when we remember to work it in.

mostly the training we do is based on the seminar teachings.



oh and your gift, well um I hope you like SkyMall magazine. haha:D

actually that is apretty good topic I would be interested what the other HFY members around the continent train at this time.