Tan Sau:

[duende]

Good against a hook.. or not???

Only good from the inside gate??
5-line Tan Sau vs. Centerline Tan Sau... where to use and when???
Differences between High Gan Sau and Tan Sau??
Where does the energy come from???
where/when does loi lau/sinking energy come into play??

Time for some discussion!

I'm curious to see what we have all learned...

[Steve]

Well, I guess I'll offer my two cents, in no particular order.

Differences between Tan Sau and High Gan Sau?

Open Hand Tan Sau originates from the inside of the 5 lines and 'sweeps' out as the body turns. It's position is fixed on Center, the rotation of the body covers the moves through space as the hand maintains spatial coverage.

"Fook" Tan Sau seems to originate from inside the 5 gates as well, but involves more of an upward motion that begins at the Yan Jung on Center and ends at the Negative Yin Line at the Tan Jung.

High Gan Sau originates from outside of the 5 Lines and cuts inward to the Yin or Centerline as the body moves into position behind the arm. The high space is covered as the body takes position to support the Gan Sau.

Tan Sau vs. a Hook?

I presume this is a hook to the head/heaven gate since we're talking about Tan Sau / High Gan Sau?

I think it will be an effective defense, provided it is the "Fook" Tan Sau. This seems to provide the best structure with which to meet a hook and successfully and safely intercept it. It also sets one up for a nice, immediate counter attack to the face or neck if needed.

I would not use the Open Handed Tan Sau against a hook as the positioning on Center, or the Yin Lines, does not seemingly provide a sound structure that could stop a hook. The hook could easily snake around the Tan to get into the gate. However, now that I think about it, it may work if you step into the hook(once it it intercepted) with such a Tan, helping to keep the attacker's arm from being able to come around fully. However, if my Jong Sau reads the energy of a hook, I would most likely respond with a Biu Da and step into the attacker's arm to separate it from his body more. This seems more natural and effective against a hook.

Where does loi lau/ sinking energy come to play?

I would say with the use of the High Gan Sau for this discussion. In my Kiu Sau experiences, Gan Sau, once established, can be used to sink the attacker's arm into their body / center. This allows me to press them with my Gan if necessary, knocking them off balance before they can react.

Where does the energy come from?

For both the Tan and High Gan, the forward energy comes from the structure of each tool combined with the weight of the body behind it. For Open Hand Tan Sau (Centerline Tan Sau?), the dispersing energy comes from the rotation of the body. The arm stays fixed on center as the body moves out of the way of the strike, using the arm as the leverage point. For the "Fook" Tan Sau (5 Line Tan Sau?), I think the energy comes from the elbow, but I'm not exactly positive about this. I'm still getting a grip on this one. ; )


Only good from the inside gate?
Meaning the Mun Jong range I presume?

I would have to say that yes, both Tan and Gan are most effective from this gate. If the Tan or Gan is overextended into the Kiu Jong range, it can be easily challenged, no matter if the body is behind it or not, unless of course you've got some really huge deltoids or move like greased lightning!

Please clarify the 5-line Tan Sau vs. Centerline Tan Sau. I think I've got the correct notion, but I may be wrong.


Humbly,

Steve

[duende]

Hey Steve,

Thanks for replying. I see now that my questions were a bit scattered. I've just been noticing lately how on other boards the nature of Tan Sau has been popping up as of late. So I thought it would be interesting for us to have our own discussion here about our understanding of the nature of Tan Sau. Funny enough, I also learned recently of a wing chun lineage that has completely abandoned Tan Sau, and now only uses high Gan Sau.

So how about we first discuss the differences between Tan Sau and High Gan Sau???

But first let me tell you that it is my understanding that what you refer to as "Fook" Tan Sau is actually Tahn Sau. Sounds similar to our english trained ears to Tan Sau, but they are actually two different concepts. Tahn Sau is found in the SNT in the first section directly before the Huen to high Gan Sau movement. Look at the Mastering Kung Fu book pg. 95 and 96, and you'll see what I mean.

Also to make things clear, let's focus on a Kiu sau time frame, and not the Jung Sin Chi Sau timeframe of the Tahn Sau.

There are two types of Tan Sau. Centerline and 5-line. Within these two types, they both have their applications in Jeui Ying, and Deui Ying. And... depending on your time and space, Tan Sau can come from the centerline (like from Jong Sau structure) or from the shoulder line in a similar manner that you described. In a Kiu Sau timeframe, we drill the Tan Sau from the Jong Sau structure, the centerline, and the five-line concepts.

To put it simply, Tan Sau can come from the inside line, or the outside line. When from the inside line, the tan will end up pointing to your opponant's shoulder line. When coming from the outside, the tan will end up pointing to your opponants centerline.

Obviously, there is alot more to it, but I have to run right now. I will add more as soon as I can.

Alex

[William E]

We have been practicing the Deui Ying Kui Sau over the last couple of weeks with sifu introducing some new concepts (or at least they are more clear to me this time).

Centerline vs. 5-Line Taan Sau in the reaction timeframe.

There are three specific body mechanic drills from a facing – Bai Jong position involving Taan Sau.

#1. Dealing with an inside punch (i.e. they’re punching with their left hand and your using your right hand) coming at your center at your human and heaven gates. This reaction timeframe may not include much time to prepare for the initial engagement.

In this scenario, the best way to react is with a strong HFY Jong Sau or Structure Hand. Upon contact, the energy that I feel with my Kui Sau will determine my next move. After my Jong Sau allows me control of the center then I can flow into Taan Sau or Taan Da.

If I tried to execute the Taan Sau “technique” against a very strong punch my structure would likely be challenged. If my opponent uses great force then I would flow from Jong Sau to Bong Sau but that isn’t the energy we’re training at this point.

If I try to suck my opponent into my body like some other families do then I create a long arm – short arm scenario which violates the HFY principles and is also easily challenged.

#2. Dealing with an inside punch (i.e. they’re punching with their left hand and your using your right hand) coming at you (with bad structure i,e, elbow out) at your human and heaven gates. This reaction timeframe includes time enough to assess the potential structural flaws of your opponent.

In this scenario, I could still use my trusty Jong Sau but I could also use the five line Taan Sau. This is more of a committed Saan Da technique but has the potential to be very effective. My hand right hand moves to my left shoulder line before traveling up and out to cover the upper gate and centerline. Upon contact your Taan moves to your right shoulder line which leaves the center open and must be occupied with a punch from the left hand. The skill of my opponent and their ability to check my punch will determine the success of this move.

#3) Dealing with the outside punch (i.e.their punching with their right and you are also using your right or opposite hand).

The proper reaction to this scenario would be for a centerline Taan Sau which travels on center, established a bridge pointing to my opponents center. The left foot would stay planted and firm where the right foot and hip turn out slightly. If my opponent tries to force in I can move my right side to accommodate but always having my Taan Sau pointed at their center.

From this position I have the ultimate advantage.
- They are out of range to hit me with their left hand.
- If they drop their right hand to swing and hit me they will get hit in the face with my fist which is only inches away
- Both my hands are lined up on their center just ready for the next Larp sau followed up by chain punches to their centerline

If I tried to perform a 5-line Taan Sau under this scenario it would be very dangerous since I am leaving my center open for a HFY Faat Sau right between my two hands as a result of my over-reacting. It is best to stay on center.

Steve, the Fook Tan Sau that you mentioned is not a taan sau but a Tahn Sau or “bouncing hand”. This technique is utilized in the centerline chi sau that was covered in the last workshop in S.F.

I hope this helps.

William E.

[Steve]

Thanks to Alex and William for clarifying Tan vs. Tahn.

I guess my auditory kung fu still needs some practice to hear those tonal differences! :)

Its a bit late right now, so I'll re-read everything again tomorrow and anaylze it to see if I understand it.


Steve

[Steve]

OK,

I have a few questions William. I understand what you wrote, but what is the orientation of the feet in those scenarios?

1. Inside Punch - Left to Right: Is this Bin Ma (Open Stance) or Ji Ng Mah (Closed Stance)?
2. Inside Punch – Left to Right: Is this Bin Ma (Open Stance) or Ji Ng Mah (Closed Stance)?
3. Outside Punch – Right to Right: Is this Bin Ma (Open Stance) or Ji Ng Mah (Closed Stance)?


Just need some clarification please.

Yesterday, we went over some of those scenarios in class with the intent of Gak Mut Ji Ji for Tan Sau. Unfortunately I could not partake of the San Sau, just the Hou Chun, due to a broken foot. It makes things a bit tricky to practice them in my head only.


Steve

[William E]

Steve

Sorry to hear about your foot and I hope that you have a speedy recovery.

In my previous post I mentioned that we had been practicing Deui Ying Kui Sau where I am facing my opponent in my horse stance with my hands in Kiu Jong position.

For these three drills my opponent starts from a facing position as well and then advances into Bui Yi Ma while punching at the centerline of either my human or heaven gate. No Bin Ma vs. Jg Ma. I should be able to perform each of the three scenarios with either my lead hand or my Wu Sau hand.

One question I have for you is what do you mean by "Gak Mut Ji Ji"?

Thanks,

William E.

[Steve]

Hey William,

Now that I look over your previous post, I do indeed see the Deui Ying Kiu Sau mentioned, my bad.


By"Gak Mut Ji Ji" I mean that we are examining as many possibilities as we can regarding Tan Tau. "Gak Mut Ji Ji" is the idiom/keun kuit referring to exploring everything exhaustively within a given box. The box this time is tan sau and its possibilities. We were playing Tan Sau, well, they were, from both Bin and Ji Ng Mah positions as part of the exploration of Tan Sau.



Steve

[duende]

Steve,

being in Bin Ma or Ji Ng Ma implies that you are utilizing the leading footwork of BYM or LYM. Of course you can favor a leading hip in YGKYM as well. But the strategy of Bin Ma/Ji Ng Ma applies to a leading footwork that is parallel or crossing with the footwork of an opponent.

Using the footwork of LYM or BYM implies in itself that the bridge has already been established. The Deui Ying drills require the footwork to be in a neutral stance where a bridge has yet to be established by an opponant who crosses the bridge with a punch and moves into BYM footwork. Which is an entirely dirfferent timeframe.

In my opinion, these drills are very important because they teach energy awareness from a Jong Sau position, as well as the fundemental importance of good Jong Sau structure. They also teach you the true meaning of conservation of energy. Learning Tan Sau in the Jit Kiu timeframe that you describe is important as well, but involves a whole different emphasis of learning.

[duende]

oops...

Upon reading my post I see I should have made myself more clear on one thing. When I wrote... "Using the footwork of LYM or BYM implies in itself that the bridge has already been established." While this may often be the case. Please understand that I meant this in regards to the Deui Ying Tan Sau drills, and not the strategy of Bin Ma/Ji Ng Ma.

From my understanding, the strategy of Bin Ma/Ji Ng Ma is for how to face an opponant for proper penetration of an attack, while at the same time maintaining a proper defensive facing of Man Sau/Wu Sau. This involves the shifting of leading footwork depending upon your relationship to your opponant's leading hand.

In the Deui Ying Tan Sau drills, it is pre-determined who initiates the attack.

So do you see now how we are talking about two different timeframes??? And how the focus on Bin Ma/Ji Ng Ma is not relevent for the timeframe within which we are drilling???

Hope that helps... I must admit, it was hard for me to write out.

[duende]

Ugh!! I did it again!

"So do you see now how we are talking about two different timeframes??? And how the focus on Bin Ma/Ji Ng Ma is not relevent for the timeframe within which we are drilling???"

replace timeframe with scenario/s. As both are dealing with the pre-contact stage.

Okay... enough from me.