One Line or Five Line?

[Savi]

Within the concepts of Siu Sing/Daai Sing, Tin Yan Dei Concept, I think exists the difference between One Line and Five Line theories, but I'm not sure. I have a couple of questions, and I'm sure these questions are probably very linear in thought.

1. What is the nature of Five Line application versus a One Line application?

2. In terms of space usage, do One Line and Five Line theories exist solely inside the Six Gates of the body?

3. If yes to #2, is Fau Kiu Kiu Sau part of Siu Sing HHE or Daai Sing HHE?

4. Should you ever use a Five Line app to engage an attack, or would that be excessive? If not, what would cause one to use a Five Line app versus a One Line app to engage an attack? Is it Time? Space? Energy? Strategy or Tactic? All of it? Some of it?

Legs...

4. Is the hitting (heel) kick based on Little Wheel Heaven Human Earth?

5. Is the cutting (knife-edge) kick based on Big Wheel Heaven Human Earth?

6. Is Leung Yi Mah based within Daai Sing Tin Yan Dei?

7. Is Bun Yuet Mah based within Siu Sing Tin Yan Dei?

I am sorry for all the questions, but I cannot exactly identify what it is I am searching for at this moment. All these thoughts are rushing at me all at once. The "wheels" are turning. Perhaps if someone could tell me more about Daai Sing Tin Yan Dei, it would help bring more context/direction to this for me.

Thank you in advance.

[sauchi]

Savi,

Did you ever get your questions answered?

Sauchi

[Savi]

I have not received any responses yet, except yours... which is greatly appreciated even though just an acknowledgement.

Do you have any info regarding my question?

Thank you in advance!

[duende]

Savi,

I tried to answer your questions awhile back, and then I ran out of time in the midde of it. I also know that GM Gee will be addressing these questions at the next HFY seminar.

I'll skip the first two, as I'm not sure what you are asking.

3. Fau Kiu Sau is more common to Dai Sing TYD as it occurs on the boundries of the six gates. The only time I can think of where Kiu Sau would occur in Siu Sing is when you cross your opponents centerline just for a brief instance to reach the other blind side in MYDY.

4. Five line in my experience would be a Jeui Ying attack, one line would be a Deui Ying attack. Jeui Ying carries overall much more advantage, but Deui requires less movement. So Jeui Ying although better is not imediately sought after due to energy conservation.

4 (again) Heel kick is at the Human gate. And from my experience is used to eat up space like in a Siu Sing situation. But this is just what I've seen, so I'm not suggesting any rules here.

5. Storm kick is at the earth gate and I can see it easily happening in either Dai Sing, or Sui Sing.

6. LYM is both I would think, YGKYM is more likely to be Sui Sing. BYM is often Dai Sing, but could be both.


FWIW... I think you are looking for rules. I also think that there needs to be a distinction in your thinking between 5/centerline thinking and TYD. For me the big wheel is how to dominate/nullify your opponents structure at the Heaven, Human or Earth gates via 6 gate tools. The small wheel is the same thing, but via centerline tools.

I would suggest not looking for rules... As they might prevent you from seeing,accepting the possiblities of a bigger picture.

Of course, I don't claim to be any expert. So as always, take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Alex

[Savi]

Originally posted by duende
3. Fau Kiu Sau is more common to Dai Sing TYD as it occurs on the boundries of the six gates. The only time I can think of where Kiu Sau would occur in Siu Sing is when you cross your opponents centerline just for a brief instance to reach the other blind side in MYDY.That's what I was thinking as well, but I was not sure if MYDY was connected to DSTYD at all.
Originally posted by duende
4. Five line in my experience would be a Jeui Ying attack, one line would be a Deui Ying attack. Jeui Ying carries overall much more advantage, but Deui requires less movement. So Jeui Ying although better is not imediately sought after due to energy conservation. I find this very interesting. And it makes much sense to me, that a one line app might be all you ever need.
Originally posted by duende
4 (again) Heel kick is at the Human gate. And from my experience is used to eat up space like in a Siu Sing situation. But this is just what I've seen, so I'm not suggesting any rules here. When you say Human gate, you are talking about the torso region? I am not familiar with a Heel Kick going this high in WC, only towards the knees and - well, the hips...
Originally posted by duende
5. Storm kick is at the earth gate and I can see it easily happening in either Dai Sing, or Sui Sing. This is the kick with the knife-edge being used right? I can see this as well, but still am not sure how the legs are governed by SSTYD and DSTYD.
Originally posted by duende
6. LYM is both I would think, YGKYM is more likely to be Sui Sing. BYM is often Dai Sing, but could be both. Could you elaborate more please?
Originally posted by duende
FWIW... I think you are looking for rules. I also think that there needs to be a distinction in your thinking between 5/centerline thinking and TYD. For me the big wheel is how to dominate/nullify your opponents structure at the Heaven, Human or Earth gates via 6 gate tools. The small wheel is the same thing, but via centerline tools.

I would suggest not looking for rules... As they might prevent you from seeing,accepting the possiblities of a bigger picture.

Of course, I don't claim to be any expert. So as always, take everything I say with a grain of salt.

Alex Well, I'm not actually looking for rules; just some direction and food for thought. I practice A LOT of the body mechanics for the material we have so far in SNT almost every day of the week, so during these sessions my mind is trying to find possible logical connections between body mechanics and currently known concept and theory (that I know of).

The reason I am asking these questions is to better understand one line and five line usage within the context of SS/DSTYD regarding footwork.

I currently identify SSTYD with Centerline and DSTYD with Five-Line. Five-Line as I understand is about knowing how to shift space and energy through line changes. I am always open to accept that what I think I know can be a pretty Fau Kiu (very basic) understanding, but I find myself very eager to learn more about Big Wheel for some reason.

I guess it is premature for me to discuss DSTYD without first going through Hau Chyun Saan Sau (experiencing), eh? That way, I would actually know what to ask!

My first question:

1. What is the nature of Five Line application versus a One Line application?

I have to find a better way to ask this question. I still have too many surrounding questions floating around this question!

You know, on a side note... turning away from the initial line of questions... I have recently found my Chi Sau has changed. I am much more consciously aware of utilizing Kiu Jong and Muhn Jong when doing Chi Sau. I believe the training we went through in March about Jung Sien Ji Ng Kiu Chi Sau has really made a difference for me.

My body is beginning to instinctively 'switch' from centerline Chi Sau to line changing (which I guess is Five-Line application) only when my center is truly being challenged. My sifu has been training us in Daan Chi Sau Initials during our end of the month seminars and senior students classes, and I believe that is affecting my Chi Sau in the area of Five Line usage. Any other time where my center is not under direct challenge and my body naturally wants to use Kiu Sau and Centerline Chi Sau with my partners. It is quite an interesting experience so far.

[duende]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hfysavi

When you say Human gate, you are talking about the torso region? I am not familiar with a Heel Kick going this high in WC, only towards the knees and - well, the hips...

I was referring to a straight kick.. sorry got confused. We focus on the heel in a straight kick as well, so thats how I got things mixed-up.

Regarding straight kicks, I say this is because in all the drills where I've used a heel kick, it was primarily to eat up the space of a retreating opponent.

Regarding heel kicks... they can be either... and focus on the earth gate (shins/knees)

This is the kick with the knife-edge being used right? I can see this as well, but still am not sure how the legs are governed by SSTYD and DSTYD.
Could you elaborate more please?


The legs are govered in that some kicks protect the centerline, and others protect the 6 gates. Of course Deui Ying and Jeiu Ying positioning play aprart in this as well. Most of my experience with TYD drills have occured in a Jeui Ying situation, where leverage is more at your advantage, and the actual Heavan, Human, or Earth structure of your opponent is more easily to see destroyed.



The reason I am asking these questions is to better understand one line and five line usage within the context of SS/DSTYD regarding footwork.

Your questions show alot of insight. Definitely made me do some thinking.


I currently identify SSTYD with Centerline and DSTYD with Five-Line. Five-Line as I understand is about knowing how to shift space and energy through line changes.


Me too! But I'm afraid of making up my mind. Sifu always has a way of throwing more things in that you would never have thought of.


I am always open to accept that what I think I know can be a pretty Fau Kiu (very basic) understanding, but I find myself very eager to learn more about Big Wheel for some reason.


Probably because that is where HFY shines beyond most other WC.



My first question:

1. What is the nature of Five Line application versus a One Line application?



It could be just a matter of energy conservation. Don't move unless you have to.

The five-line grid is always moving. And sometimes turns to one-line and back... But this gets a bit confusing, and I don't think I am able to clarify it well yet.

Later

Alex

[sauchi]

thank you for answering these questions for me too.

Savi's questions also made me think.


Sauchi

[Savi]

Sisukgung Duende and Sauchi,

I am glad that we are having this casual conversation. The long pauses inbetween each post give me time to digest what is being shared.

I have another question. Your comment on energy conservation helped me better understand my question about one line versus five line applications. If all things are based on energy conservation, would it be accurate to say that a one line app is "best" (serving the idea of energy conserv.) to engage the opponent's space with? As an example, in Deui Ying Kiu Sau we can enter the dead side of the Jong Sau with SDYS expressed through Wu Da (guarding hand with punch) technique, which is a One Line attack.

However, is energy conservation still applicable/considered for live side entries in Deui Ying Kiu Sau? Live side entries (Tan Da, Wu Da, Gahn Da) are based on Five Line theories, correct? So then these listed syllables are higher energy apps, right?

Does this mean that Five Line apps always use more energy than One Line apps? Reason why I ask is because it seems now (my thoughts now wander into footwork) that the concept of energy conservation would be the opposite for footwork.

Leung Yi Ma
When using LYM (yin line rotations), are you not absorbing/redirecting a centerline challenge? If this is the case, then that means that you are borrowing the attacker's energy to establish harmony. Presuming LYM is based on Five Line theories, this would require less energy on your part.

Buhn Yuet Ma
BYM is a centerline challenge, which seems to require great use of energy for attack. This would require the defender to have excellent skill in Loi Lau Hoi Sung in order to deal with your centerline challenge, but still means that you are exerting more energy with BYM, which is based on Centerline Theory, right?

It seems that with BYM, both Centerline and Five Line arm apps can be used.

BUT with LYM, I cannot see any Centerline arm app to be compatible, unless the person's attack is pure illusion and you can attack straight from your Jong Sau without moving your LYM stance...

I hope I was clear, and not just confusing myself! Having conversations focused on concepts can be very taxing sometimes... especially when it is 1:30 in the morning and you've been up since 4am the previous morning. OK... good night/morning.

PS: I must apologize that I am not 100% while contemplating these temporary mysteries in life, but I am pretty confident in my thoughts as well, with what I am trying to discuss, I think. :confused: :rolleyes: alright, good night again.

[duende]

Hey Savi...

If I'm understanding you correctly, I think we are in agreement.

I see LYM as redirection/absorbtion as well. For those instances when YGKYM hip redirection is not enough, you can move to a LYM and absorb/redirect the attack with your back leg.

BYM comes more into play in attacking/pursueing situations.

While both can be five-line/center-line applications.

Ideally we should be so grounded that any attack can be dealt with in a Deui Ying/YGKYM stance. That's what woodening is for right??

I think the confusion comes into play when self-centerline gets mixed up with A->B centerline. You can fend off an attack in Deui Ying where it looks very close to five-line application and your opponent has an obstructed rear punch (very near to long arm short arm). But it still is a deui ying center-line application.

Techniques kind of make things fuzzy in that they take a small snippet of time out of context from the entire battle scenario.

However, a good example of a LYM five-line scenario is if you are attacked and your opponent goes for you legs. I see this as the time to LYM and side gum sau the back of his head for control. Effectively, your centerline has moved (which is more energy), and you are in Jeui Ying positionally, however you still are redirecting/controlling.

Does this help???

Alex