What is kiu sau training all about?

[JamesHFYofAZ]

First of, hello to all HFY family members. I am so enlightened by everyone's thoughts.
What is the essence of Kui Sau? I understand kui sau as being a training process for developing awareness of time, space, and energy from a bridge. This gives you a picture of the battle field, or kui sau gives you a glimpse from within the battle field array. Of course I have not trained all the progressions extensively to fully understand all of witch it has to offer. I was wondering about whether or not within kui sau, if you are in all five time frames? And are all the elements there?

[DavidE]

"What is the essence of Kui Sau?" - James

That is a good question. To me, there are different aspects of Kiu Sao that can be discussed. To have a discussion it should be clear from which you're speaking.

"I understand kui sau as being a training process for developing awareness of time, space, and energy from a bridge." - James

From this I would assess that our discussion is based on the "training" or "exercise" aspect of Kiu Sao. Thus, from my experience, I would agree all three are referenced and trained in the Kiu Sao exercises.

"I was wondering about whether or not within kui sau, if you are in all five time frames? And are all the elements there?" - James

I think when you are talking about Ng Jahn Cheui Mihn Jeui Ying the focus is on Chum Kiu not Kiu Sao, Chi Sao, etc ...

Let me ask you and anyone else do you see any other aspects of Kiu Sao besides it being a "training process"?

I really enjoyed Master Hoffman's points on Chi Sim Kiu Sao. That was definetly way more than a training process!!

-David

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I see more then just training. I see the awareness of a given moment in time with in combat. I further see kui sau being a tool that is used at a specific range. Learning spacial control through proper body movement, while maintaining structures within motion is something you train. Once you train it, it's in your bodies memory. Let me know if I am getting close? I don't feel that I have answered your question. Got to go, be back in a few!

[DavidE]

James says:

"Let me know if I am getting close? I don't feel that I have answered your question."

LOL ... I don't have THE answer. I'm curious as to what people think thats all. :)

I've been thinking how to sucinctly answer "what is the essence of Kiu Sao?" and I'm still thinking. The closest I can come up with is, like you said Kiu Sao is a tool.

I think it's like one of those 9in1 handy tools. Maybe thats a good way to look at it? It can be 9 different things but it is still only 1. Does the phrase - greater than the sum of it's parts apply here?

Hey James, one thing I try to keep in mind is, in these discussions there is no right or wrong only understanding from your own experience. It would be cool to hear more from others and their experience.

-David

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Yea boy! Another view that I have been wandering with is dimensional versus directional. In more detail the circle that you do not step within. I have have seen that if you move directly across the circle the energy from your opponent sends you off. If you move with the intent of having elbow & hip unity adding a few more concepts LM, SDYS and other spices. Wal-la! You are able to clear space. Of course all with the intent on shadow. ?????? Is kui sau an onslot on your opponents center?MYDY is directed to the one line (center) an attack towards the body bridge.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
In more detail the circle that you do not step within. I have have seen that if you move directly across the circle the energy from your opponent sends you off. If you move with the intent of having elbow & hip unity adding a few more concepts LM, SDYS and other spices. Wal-la! You are able to clear space.

What do you mean by moving across the circle? I certainly agree with the need for LYM, SDYS...but what, in your opinion is the "circle"?

Of course all with the intent on shadow. ?????? Is kui sau an onslot on your opponents center?MYDY is directed to the one line (center) an attack towards the body bridge.

I thought you were supposed to be focused on the temple of the other guy. I find that if I focus on the other guy's center I can easily be re-directed past center.

JK

[William E]

James wrote >> Yea boy! Another view that I have been wandering with is dimensional versus directional. In more detail the circle that you do not step within. I have have seen that if you move directly across the circle the energy from your opponent sends you off. If you move with the intent of having elbow & hip unity adding a few more concepts LM, SDYS and other spices. Wal-la! You are able to clear space. Of course all with the intent on shadow. ?????? Is kui sau an onslot on your opponents center?MYDY is directed to the one line (center) an attack towards the body bridge.

James,

Thanks for starting this thread. I would agree with David in describing Kuo Sau as a tool. In order to enter HFY level 4 (green sash) where the student begins to learn the Chum Kui form they must be proficient in Kuo Sau. This proficiency allow the student to begin "free sparing" since they know how to engage an opponent from all angles and directions. Before you can sink the bridge you have to know the proper way of establishing it.

From my experience, you need a strong HFY foundation to work with in order to start Kuo Sau training. Without these elements you will never be able to pass the wandering stage.

- Footwork

The Leung Yi Ma stance is one of the keys for the outside element to be able to transition from left to right. It allows me to apply forward energy with my forearm while maintaining the proper distance as well as sentivity with my other forearm. The footwork in conjunction with the rolling arms in the proper position allow me to transition from left to right while denying my opponent the opportunity to hit from the inside.


- HFY Formula

I must maintain a verticly spine and not lean forward when performing Kuo Sau. This is the mistake of almost every beginner. Also, the centerline formula teaches us how to move from left to right but not TOO far. This angle is similar to the one expressed in Kui Sau.

The Yin line should go without saying but it IS the reference for both outside arms. If my Tan Sau is not on the yin line I will not have the proper forearm contact and will not be able to develop any sensativity. The result is I get hit alot... If the striking hand is also not on the yin line it can be easily challenged by the opponents Bong Sau.

I'll stop here with the formula discussion but remember that it is so important that whatever you are doing (SLT, wooden dummy, SNT, etc) be aware of your body position and it's relation to the formula.

To clear up some confusion with regards to your comments above. First, I'd like to understand the circle concept since I've never heard of this before.

As you may have experiences the outside person moves back and forth and attacks from the MYDY position not from the center. The inside person who is in DY strikes when they sense an opening. This strike could be considered a centerline stike but is only a challenge to the person on the outside.

I will follow-up with another post discussing the history of HFY Kua Sao.

William E.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Originally posted by JK Walz
What do you mean by moving across the circle? I certainly agree with the need for LYM, SDYS...but what, in your opinion is the "circle"?JK

>>>>>I now understand that the circle is a reference to efficiency of motion. I was referring to stepping directly across your opponent's space, but now I see this differently, your opponents space is not the challenge. It is your own space that you're clearing in relation to your opponent.
[/b]

[i] I thought you were supposed to be focused on the temple of the other guy. I find that if I focus on the other guy's center I can easily be re-directed past center.JK [/B]

>>>>>Sure, I see a center as in the imaginary pole. When I direct my tool toward your temple from an angle, it effects your opps. center.

[Cang Long]

Before you can sink the bridge you have to know the proper way of establishing it.

Words to live by.... Excellent post William Thanks for such a meaningful contribution, its post like this and the 5 elements thread that make this forum a susccess in such a short time.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by William E
Thanks for starting this thread. I would agree with David in describing Kuo Sau as a tool. In order to enter HFY level 4 (green sash) where the student begins to learn the Chum Kui form they must be proficient in Kuo Sau. This proficiency allow the student to begin "free sparing" since they know how to engage an opponent from all angles and directions. Before you can sink the bridge you have to know the proper way of establishing it.


William,

Thanks for the post.

In my mind I think of Kiu Sau (at one level) as using your SNT level learning and formula in relation to a outside force or second person under different circumstances.

Anything on that history you promised?

JK

[William E]

JK,

Nice to have you back. I'm hoping that more people feel comfortable posting on their experience in Kui Sau. We continue to review this in-depth and sometimes frustrating major catagory in HFY.

As far as the history goes, since HFY was developed in the Shaolin temple the deisgners were well aware of the chin na (grapling) techniques of the other styles and had to device a method against it's use. One of the reasons for Kui Sau is sometimes referred to as "anti-grapling".

In tonights class, we once reviewed the Bong/Lop centerline KS.

What are peoples thoughts on this third progression of Kui Sau?

William E.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by William E
In tonights class, we once reviewed the Bong/Lop centerline KS.

What are peoples thoughts on this third progression of Kui Sau?


It's funny- in class I think I know what the heck this is all about but when I try to put it in words I find it difficult....

Anyway, my thoughts on BLKS are that you are training the ability to have a forward (center-directed) energy while maintaining your SDYS in a bin-mah alignment. At the same time time you are developing some basic abilities and attributes such as energetics in the bridge arm, sensitivity at the bridge, not trapping your rear hand, not having a limp wrist on the bong arm (my wrist still hurts!), and so on.

Any comments?

JK

[passing_through]

In thinking of Kiu Sau, one understanding I share with classes is this:

When we talk about range, we have a Bridge (Kiu Jong) and a Door (Mun Jong). For an opponent to hurt us, they have to get enter our door. To get to the door, they have to cross the bridge (anyone ever stormed a castle?).

So, from a technical POV, Kiu Sau is about how to maintain an opponent at the bridge, while allowing us to enter their door.

In order to learn to keep an opponent at the Kiu Jong range, we need to develop 360 degree sensitivity on our forearms and coordinate our arms, body, and legs to work at a unit to find the angle of maximum penetration while also influencing an opponent's one line. This is accomplished by the rolling in all phases of Kiu Sau training.

Fau Kiu Kiu Sau teaches two things:
1) How to go from a bad position with no facing (called Fau Kiu Facing) with three levels of threat (touch, grab, attack)

2) Establishes a frame of reference for Kiu Sau so we can continue to build skill. This second one is more philosophical in nature. When we learn Fau Kiu Kiu Sau, on what can we base our experience? Nothing! When we learn the 2nd level of Kiu Sau, Deui Ying Kiu Sau, on what can we base our experience - Fau Kiu Kiu Sau! So we're no longer at Fau Kiu (from a philosophical POV)when it comes to Kiu Sau or even training Fau Kiu Kiu Sau - our experience turns Fau Kiu Kiu Sau into a training for facing after we've got some experience.

Jeremy R.

[William E]

JK,

I think you've got the gist of it.

The body mechanic elements I conecntrate on are:

- Footwork (stances, body unity, foot position in relation to opponent, bin-mah)
- Strong Bong Sau (extended fingertips, elbow higher than shoulder, wrist on centerline, striking point of wau sau hand makes contact with the wrist joint of the opponents striking hand to avoid those traps, elbow of wau sau hand is on the yin line)
- Punch (elbow moves to yin line and fist comes from center and with forward energy, the other hand controls the opponents forearm until the transition into bong sau)

The flow should be crispy and cooperative and not hard or forced at first.

William E.

p.s. Excellent post Jeremy

[JamesHFYofAZ]

What is Kiu Sau again?:D

[Chango]

;) Bridge hand my friend.

[Cang Long]

originally posted by William E.
What are peoples thoughts on this third progression of Kui Sau? Now that I have had a little time to play with and examine this progression I have to say the logic flow and the application of this exercise exemplifies the wing chun trademark of economy of motion. The upper and lower gate simultanious coverage which lead to the advantagous positon to attack are flawless. It takes little to no exerhtion on the part of the person denying the attack to execute this application. Planting the foot guides the elbow without fail to saam dim yat sin. Needless to say this exercise has been very enlightening and naturally very helpful in getting that same sense of time space and energy connection with other drills as well.

[Steve]

What is Kiu Sau?

From my experiences, it is a method of training the forearms to act as spatial/energy radars dealing with spatial/energy incursions from the side of you(assuming were talking about Fau Kiu Kiu Sau). It is the best way to get out of such a situation, meaning that you end up in a superior position using minimal energy.

Now, to what capacity are we talking about kiu sau? The Fau Kiu? Deui Ying? Each one has a different flavor in the beginning of the exercise before the rolling commences (front, side attacks).

As far as training the body, keep in mind that everythign we do is training the body, from SNT to kiu sau, your mindset is what limits you. Sometimes I train deliberately to check my positionings in against the Sup Ming Dim. Othertimes I roll extensively to play with the energy.

I also seem to remember hearing Sigung mention that one of the core abilities one should derive from kiu sau training is anti-grappling skills.

Steve

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Hey chango, if its called bridge hand, how come you bridge with 4-arm? LOL to confuse the outsiders ofcource! Hows that sinus thing treatin ya? Hope you're doin better.

[Chango]

Hello James,
I'm a new man! I can breathe and smell again. I did not realize how much the sinus's influence your breathing until now! Breathing through the mouth really does not cut it. I still can't take shots in the face but starting yesterday I'm allowed to raise my heart rate. I'm really loving it now.

As for the kiu sau I like to keep things simple. Fau kiu kiu sau training allows us to train our bodies to travel the most efficient route to Jui ying when various stimuli are applied. Being a push or pull or a strike.

This is what I like to call a "blue collar" answer. Sure the kiu sau has loads more to offer! I like the term "Blue collar"becuase there is alot of work to be done on the part of the players to gain the "Chan flower" of expirence.

So I find it very difficult to say any aspect of Hung Fa Yi "is". I will humbly say I don't think I'm personally ready to draw such a large conclusion in framing what Kiu sau "is". Not to answer a question with a question but I have to ask " Kiu sau in how it relates to what?"

Ever time I learn something new about the system I'm finding that each new part becomes a new connection to what I have already learned! The consistant renforcement of each level of knowlege goes in all directions. Yes HFY is Dimential thought if you will. The HFY diamond offers many facets and each facet offers new insight. So in attempt not to be so wordy. I will simply offer the blue collar version.:cool:

Chango (breathing clearly now)

[Savi]

After the March '04 seminar in SF, my thoughts on Kiu Sau have changed, ... again. ;)

To put it very simply, Kiu Sau is used to cultivate our awareness of the unknown and the known. As Grandmaster Gee put it, "Kiu Sau theory is about Mo Ying Da Yeng and Yau Ying Da Ying."

I think that FKKS builds on the unknown, DYKS on the known, BLKS for dimensional shifting and KSKS for trapping...

Further more I am beginning to see the relationship of Kiu Sau to Timeframe, in that certain tools we use either slow time down or speed time up, thus allowing us to call all the shots.

The conceptual and theoretical involvment from HFY science allows for a clear and precise focus, but getting the body to reflect those concepts and theories without distortions make take a long long time (depending on your body karma).

Gotta teach class... cheers.

[Ryanjetli]

Hey Dave. Alright so we are talking about Kiu sau. Kiu Sau to me if a tool used in a specific time frame. For me it seems to be a way to establish my space and find my opponents center. My reference of thinking is in line. Kiu sau is a stage you can go through from kiu sau to chi kiu to chi sau. my thinking right now involves alot of thinking as to the stages in wich they are employed. my biggest problem is probably this. When im training i find myself trying to force this instead of flowing and realizing that they don't have to be linear. I would like to hear what other peoples ideas are on this subject.

[duende]

Ryan,

you're on the right track! Imposed linearity on nature is a western concept/ideal.

It has been my learning that the true nature of all things is random. We try to bring this into focus (Wing Kiu) the best we can through the three connecting bridges. (Saam Mo Kiu) One can freeze time, and envison how Kiu Sau can lead to Chi Kiu and then to Chi Sau, in an ideal spatial sequence. This could be expressed as Blind side->6 gates-> centerline focus. However, in reality they all have their own time, space, and energy to be considered. And where they lead is determined by the five energies, and how the five phase of combat unfold in a fight. NOT some predetermined order or rules.

This is just my understanding.

The best analogy I have ever been taught is that of the stick shift in an automobile. One cannot jump from 1st gear into 5th or the car will stall. Then again, one can't climb a hill in 5th gear, or start the car in 5th. But also one cannot jam into 1st when the car is racing down a hill either.

Hope that helps...

Alex

[Ryanjetli]

Yes that does help me. I like your ananlogy. I also had a big discovery with my kiu sau yesterday with a Si Hings help. My Yin line or where i thought there was my yin line was not there at all. I was shifting my box or as M. G. says running away. This Caused my oriantation to be off and to not have proper time and space. I wonder if anyone would like to comment or if they have had a similar experience. I had trained my illusion very well so its off to train some reality now. Thanks Dave.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I have! As I progress I find more and more flaws that I have to delete from the body. Shifting the five lines to the side and/or going outside the box. is one playing on yin or is one triing to use strangth to overcome the loss of efficient structures. It sucks when one trains an allution, and then one day one wakes up and says, "hay thats not right" after that one can pretty much say that one is able to see SMK and the jurney within. O ya and the kiu is magical. ;) is not magic that I keep you out of my space with kiu sau, thats HFY!!!!!!!!!! Remember "I call the shots not him."
Later bro, Me

[Ryanjetli]

you crazy mo fo. boo yaa

[ACMLAW]

This was an excellent post I was wondering if anyone has additional insight now that kui sau is better understood from the individuals previously posting or from newer members. I have just started level 4 so I am in this beginning stage of development and want to insure that I have the right focus on the concept. Thanks for the imput.

Also, I hope everyone has a happy new year.

Adam...

[Savi]

Thank you for posting Adam.

There is so much to learn about Kiu Sau. In my opinion, you can't really pinpoint the whole of the Kiu Sau platform to only one overall concept - at least when your beginning to learn it. There is an umbrella idea called "Kiu Sau Theory", but the answer is not always black and white. It's not always "well, this is what it is". It is only reasonable to pinpoint which Kiu Sau Concept you need to identify and understand for the specific one you're currently studying.

I'm glad you're enjoying your training, and Happy New Year to you as well, Adam.

The rest of this post is intended for everyone (including you too, Adam!):

As everyone may know, there are two main Kiu Sau categories and many sub-categories within. Each one has a unique signature; a specific nature to it. Each one has corresponding concepts that give insight its character. The short range concept of Kiu Sau is Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau. The long range concept of Kiu Sau is Mo Ying Da Yeng/Yau Ying Da Ying Kiu Sau.

Within those concepts you have several different Kiu Sau subjects to study:

1. Saam Sing Jong Kiu Sau
2. Faat Sau Kiu Sau (Fau Kiu Kiu Sau is under this one)
3. Deui Ying Kiu Sau
4. Dim Buhn Kiu Sau (prerequisite for Bong Laap Kiu Sau)
5. Bong Laap Kiu Sau
6. Kwan Sau Kiu Sau

These subjects are very deep in information with a great deal of sub-topics underneath each Kiu Sau subject.

In addition to this, none of the above Kiu Sau get into the ideas of Chi Kiu Faat or Chi Sau Faat.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you guys for bringing this topic back to the light.
At this writing, I have only experienced Faat Sau Kiu Sau and Deui Ying Kiu Sau, but I see Kiu Sau is such an important part of HFY, with so many informations, details, layers, elements, concepts and principles subjacent to it. I'm looking forward to be allowed by Sifu and Sigung to see the other sub-categories of it.
Starting last week, the instructors candidates that train regularly in Rio started practicing Kiu Sau only once a week. We hope we can develop our skills and understanding so that Sifu Meng and Sigung Gee get happy with us when they visit us this year!
Thanks again,

Marcelo

Hung Fa Yi Paai, Brasil (http://hungfayi.com.br)