5 Stages of combat

[sihing]

Well we might as well get the ball rolling ah, lol. I'd like to start with one of the unique strategies of the TWC system, 5 Stages of Combat.

1st Stage of Combat

The first stage of combat is the NON-CONTACT stage, which is just outside the kicking range according to your opponents range. In this stage the side neutral stance(Left or Right, side neutral stance in YGKMA stance with feet slightly wider than should width, heels in line and weight is 50/50, and both feet pointed either 45deg. left or right depending on which hand is lead, if left is lead then body, hips, knees, feet point 45deg. right. This is slightly different from what the TWC people are doing under Grandmaster William Cheung as this was a adjustment my Sifu made in the system, and is only found in our association CWCKFA.) In this stance equal movement is allowed anywhere and one is not committed in any direction, therefore there is nothing in the stance that can be given to the opponent for his use. When in this stance the practitioner tries to keep the opponents lead foot/knee in line with their own centerline, this way the opponent will be unable to attack with any arm strike using straight line movements. This alignment also allows for various counters to any kicking attack or grappling shoot as free movement is allowed in any direction. Movement is side to side in one line as the opponent may try to flank us to either side. If the movement is towards the left, the practitioner would move their left foot first directly left, keeping the structure secure. The arms would be pointed towards the center of the opponent’s body, the lead Wu Sao is 3/4 of the way extended with the fingers angled up and approximately nose level, the inner elbow on the centerline. The rear Wu sao is in line with the lead Wu Sao elbow and at the same level(nose), approximately 5 to 6" away from the elbow pointed in the same direction as the feet(these guards are perfected in SLT practice). With the hands aligned this way and when the position of the feet is proper the practitioner will not have to move his hands to prevent the opponent from hitting them with either a straight or round punch, an impenetrable guard. The attention of the eyes is on the lead elbow as the opponent cannot hit you with their fists unless they move the elbow. The lead elbow also has to move when the opponent uses his rear hand to attack. In a straight punch the elbow moves approx. 2x slower than the fist and in a round punch 4x slower. When watching the lead elbow, you use the peripheral vision to see the lead knee which works the same as the elbow, he cannot kick/move/retreat unless he moves his knee. One would also block/deflect at the elbow/knee points as this is a balance point in the body and there is also less power at these points so it is easier to defend.

The TWC Entry Technique would be used to close the gap between yourself and the opponent. This would put us in the next stage, CONTACT STAGE. The TWC Entry Tech. is used to bridge the gap between kicking range to trapping range safely and employees a hoping tech, with raised knee to protect lower gate and Bil sao or Fut Sao to distract and protect upper gate. One is always never fully committed in TWC, and we can always stop and interrupt our movements to do another in the TWC. When entering this is also true. The opponent may also bridge that gap for us, but one must always be ready to attack or defend when the opponent enters that range when they can attack you with either their legs or arms. Distancing and Timing is of key importance in the Pre-Contact stage.

To one and all please feel free to comment on this thread topic or add to or correct if anything is missing.

Coming up next.....CONTACT STAGE


James
www.wingchun-canada.com
NOTE*** Just so it is clear, I am not a representative of the Traditional Wing Chun System as taught by GM William Cheung, as my Sifu and the Canadian Wing chun Kung-Fu Association are no longer affiliated with GM Cheung, and although what we teach and practice is very similar to TWC and we share many concepts and principals, it is not the same and has differences. The above is just one example of something we share.NOTE***

[Armin]

Hi!

@ sihing:

You describe the concept pretty nice - sounds very logical.

But I have one question left! See, in my fights there was no such thing as "staying out of kicking-distance and waiting for him to coming forward". How does your concept fit with a fight, say, in a bar? Normally you stand very close to someone, you talk with him, then you or he suddenly attack.

Can there really be something like a Wu Sao/Man Sao-position? Do you really need something "to bridge the gap"? Wouldn't it be better to have something "to sink the bridge" (Chum Kiu - "Chum"=to sink)???


Regards,

Armin.

PS: Please believe me - I'm not trying "over"-criticize your post. I give my best to understand the concept of your system.

[sihing]

Armin,
No problem with your questions, they are good ones. The 5 stages of combat are just strategies or concepts that people can use when they are at that stage. In your example, Bar fight, and you are trying to talk your way out of the situation, yes there may be times when you will not have to bypass kicking range as you are already in punching or trapping range. One thing to remember though is when you are in a situation when someone is threatening you with a fight, you should keep them at distance from you so that you don't get sucker punched. There is a distance that when whoever throws the first punch will connect with that punch due to the short distance it has to travel. It won't matter what style or system you practice, people cannot react fast enough when the fist or foot is within 1' of your face or body and a full power/speed blow is executed. The same also applies to the Man/Wu Sao, at times you will not have this in place by the time the fight begins. Sometimes though during the fight, the two of you may separate to a range that is further away from each other, when this happens then your Man Sao will come into play and the entry tech. may be used.

As for Chum Kil, we define that as "seeking" the bridge or bridging the gap, not sinking, so please Armin define what you mean by sinking. Thanks.


James

[sihing]

Contact range is stage #2. Contact in this context means contact with the outer perimeter of the opponents body is made(extended arm or leg). Information is coming in from contact reflexes developed from Chi-sao as well as from visual cues(elbow/knee watching). It is important at this stage to be ready to either attack yourself(which is the #1 thing to do) or defend from a oncoming attack from your opponent. Forward Intention in your arms and whole body is vital at this point as you want to focus your attention on getting a bit closer to your opponents body to be able to apply the WC movements to his vital areas. One can be in either a X-arm or parrallel armed positon with your opponent, and will have chi-sao training in these positions so that they are familar with this range of combat. If the opponents arms are not protecting his centerline and no contact has been made with your own arms, you will be free to use the straight line WC chain punch we are famous for, as there is no resistance or obstacle in your way towards the opponent. If contact has been made with the opponents wrists/arms/legs, the appropiate energy will be read and the trap or technique will be applied to gain access to the vital areas on his body.

James

[Armin]

Hello James,

well, "sinking" the bridge - imagine a medieval stronghold with a trench. The enemy attacks and "bridges the gap" over the trench. Then suddenly you open this special door (I don't know the correct word - you know this "bridges" that could be raised?) - you sink the bridge and over this bridge your soldiers charge forward.

Chum Kiu in this context doesn't only teach you how to bridge the gap, but it shows you how to create a bridge and/or how to nullify the opponent's bridge. Chum Kiu shows you how to control and how to pass the bridges of your opponent, when you started the countering move.

The same also applies to the Man/Wu Sao, at times you will not have this in place by the time the fight begins.
Or I just don't use it, kind of not warning my enemy. ;)

Sometimes though during the fight, the two of you may separate to a range that is further away from each other, when this happens then your Man Sao will come into play and the entry tech. may be used.
That's true. But according to Wing Chun you made something wrong, no?! If the fight started - get it over as fast as you can. You cannot allow your opponent to re-organize himself.

Information is coming in from contact reflexes developed from Chi-sao as well as from visual cues(elbow/knee watching).
This is very important - I just want to stress it again! And there's another sense, that helps you in fighting - how about hearing? I had several exercises with my Sifu, where he put out the light and attacked me. After some minutes it really worked, I was able to hear his attack coming in and I was able (after being several times hit ;) ) to defend myself.

Well, it's the whole body, that "listens" to your enemy, not only "feeling" and watching.

Ok, another thing. In another thread you describe this thing called "flanking" (I hope you know what I mean - always coming in form the outside). That's surely good. Gary Lam e. g. teches that there are two possibilties: coming from the outside - that is safe, because your enemy can't attack you at once; and: coming from the inside - that might be more dangerous, but it is much more faster! Both tactics are good and "best fighting" is, when you are able to change from inside to outside and vice versa.

I have to admit that I did a lot of training in this direction lately. Well, it works and somehow I feel "more flexible". You know, what I mean?


Regards,

Armin.

[sihing]

Hi Armin,
Originally posted by Armin

That's true. But according to Wing Chun you made something wrong, no?! If the fight started - get it over as fast as you can. You cannot allow your opponent to re-organize himself.



Nothing wrong when the opponent just happens to break away from your trapping range. We all hope and pray that our tactics work perfectly and yes when you do attack you do it fast and try not to let the opponent have a chance to counter or re-organize as you said, but like all things sometimes it just doesn't go your way all the time. Anything can happen in a fight, and no one can guarantee 100% of the time that they will win in a fight learning any MA, all we can say is that if you learn this WC and can understand it and perform it correctly your chances of success in a fight is higher.


Yes the flanking thing, we like to call it Blindside fighting, can be done on the inside or outside of the arm, but like Sifu Gary Lam said the outside is the best position to be in but is harder to get to a position on the outside of the opponents arms. Inside is more direct and faster but you will have to deal with his two arms for sure then.

Our Chum Kil teaches the student how to integrate the hand techniques and postions of those hands with the body combined with footwork. In the "Seeking the bridge or Bridging the gap" translations this to me means going out there and using footwork to find the opening or create the opening in the opponents structure. There are of course trapping hand techniques which will teach us to destroy the opponents bridge in the Chum kil form we practice but I like to think the forms are more about concepts rather than exact technique although you can look at it that way too. The mok jong form in my family teaches alot of bridge destruction/trapping technique as well as most of the combat techniques we have in the system.

James
www.wingchun-canada.com

[Armin]

Hi James,

nice answer and a lot of truth!

There are of course trapping hand techniques which will teach us to destroy the opponents bridge in the Chum kil form we practice but I like to think the forms are more about concepts rather than exact technique although you can look at it that way too.
Hm, isn't even "trapping" a kind of a concept??? Well, I wasn't talking about techniques -I prefer the word "movement" btw, something like a "technique without form".

Well, I think the problem is, that there's not "only one single idea" of the forms. Siu Nim Tao strengthens the body, it teaches you different concepts, it trains the body-structure, it trains Chi, and so on, and so on.

Chum Kiu combines the body structure of the Siu Nim Tao with turning, stepping and kicking. True. It shows how to bridge the gap, too. And there are some movements or principles that show you how to "sink the bridge".

IMHO you can't say, that a form has a special/single idea - there's always more to it, than you see at the moment. Maybe that's one part of Wing Chun being so interesting: the more you train and the longer you train, the more you discover. The possibilities seem endless!


Regards,

Armin.

[sihing]

Armin,
Yes, good observations. I think when you combine the perfect structures of the forms and the concepts learned from that training and chi-sao, with its own structure, you start to have something special, that will teach someone concepts and principals that will last and be with them for a long time and be effective for them if they need to use their tools in a combat situation.

By the way Armin, what Wing Chun family are you from? Just curious.

James

[Cang Long]

Sihing,
In the TWC system what is the most important concept of the 5 stages of combat for a TWC practitioner to develop cultivate or understand in your opinion?

[sihing]

Cang Long,

Good Question. From my experiences, the most important concepts to develop & understand from the 5 stages of combat are, IMO, timing, distancing and perception abilities. In the pre-contact stage one has to control & understand distance(Space in HFY terms I believe) between yourself and your opponent. You have to know when he is in range to reach you with his longest weapon(legs), and be prepared to either enter yourself or dissolve the attack coming towards you. Standing there like an Oak Tree is not the best thing to do.

Perception abilities like Elbow/Knee watching and being aware of the nuances of your opponent(reading him like a book, this is only developed from the training hall practice sessions with many different partners) will allow you to forecast his actions. Proper positioning in relationship to your opponent that has been trained will make things easier for you to be proactive or reactive. Your eyes have muscles too and have to be fast through training them properly. Watching the opponent’s setup is important, e.g. most people step forward with the lead foot when attacking with the hands, whereas most people step up with the back foot to perform kicking actions, this can help you perceive his actions and allow you to act accordingly.


Timing allows us to do everything at the right time so that it is effective in its application. Simultaneous attack/defense is one of the key principals behind Wing Chun and is one reason why it is so effective for reality based combat. Timing is learned again in the training hall with many different partners. The is a moment in time when vulnerability is at its highest, this is usually when the opponent is attacking, and this is when it is best to attack yourself. The economy of motion of WC allows us to cut another man's speed in half, and this is one of the keys to success in WC applications.

Okay, time to go to class...

James

[Cang Long]

From my experiences, the most important concepts to develop & understand from the 5 stages of combat are, IMO, timing, distancing and perception abilities. In the pre-contact stage one has to control & understand distance(Space in HFY terms I believe) between yourself and your opponent. Does there exist any TWC training that prepares the practitioner for attacks outside of the peripheral vision, whether it be pre-contact or contact having been made yet the only true measure of time and space is by the energy (contact)itself? My Sigung does an excellent demonstration of blind folded chi sau that illustrates that sensativity training taught in wing chun is more effective training than eye to hand coordination drilling for the purposes of hand to hand combat. Timing allows us to do everything at the right time so that it is effective in its application. Yes I agree with this statement the only question is how best to train the wing chun practitioner's timing when a stage of combat begins outside of his/her lines of vision?

[sihing]

If I understand your question, are you asking if TWC has training in blind fighting. What I mean by blind fighting is fighting without the use of vision/eyes. Does any fighting art have training for that? Realistically? We do also practice blind fold chi-sao and blind fold self defense against all types of attacks but the prerequisite is contact with the opponent. I'm not sure anyone can teach another how to fight without the use of their eyes and no contact with the opponent/s. Yes hearing can warn of an on coming attack but it cannot tell you what is coming or how it is coming at you. Energy perception from a distance? I'm not sure that is possible either. If I was that good I would just transfer my chi energy from a distance out in all directions and drop all the opponents that way, lol. If I misinterpreted your question please let me know.

James

[Armin]

Hello James,

By the way Armin, what Wing Chun family are you from? Just curious.
Hm, well. I'm from two families. I started with Leung Ting-WT, than I changed to the Wong Shun Leung-VT. And at the moment? I'm not part of any organisation or "family". You could say (I don't see it that way!), that I built my own familiy, by bringing together these two systems and the experiences I made with people form other systems (Wing Chun and non-Wing Chun).

I call it "Yong Chun"; you know - it's the same sign, just the spelling in mandarin. By chosoing this name, I want to show people that I'm not a part of this crazy and brawling Wing Chun-scene over here in Europe.


Regards

Armin.

PS: I have a new name to it! How about "Armin's-a**-kicking-Ip Man-Wing-Chun-based-Yong-Chun-Chuan", or shortly: AakiMWCbYCC :D

[sihing]

Hi Armin,
Cool. Interesting, some of your WC from Wong Shun Leung, my Sifu too comes from that lineage, he learned that style of WC back in the 70's then Cheung Style in 86'.

I just watched Wong Shun's "Science of In-Fighting" and found that his WC was similar in ways to Cheung's WC, interesting indeed. After watching the tape and seeing Wong's skill I wondered why and how Leung Ting got more popular in Hong Kong when Wong was there too. IMO Wong is the more skilled. They say Ting is a marketing genius. Armin, do you find much difference between Ting's WC and Wong's WC?

James

[Ben@HFY]

Hi Armin-

You write "... overhere in Europe".
Where in Europe are you?

rgds

Ben de Boer

[Cang Long]

I'm not sure anyone can teach another how to fight without the use of their eyes and no contact with the opponent/s. True without contact there would not be much of a fight but really my question is since you posted more than one statement requiring the use of vision the way you stated them such as timing distance and perception. So changng my original question I am asking how best to train a WC practitioner's timing distance and perception by contact alone when that contact is made from behind or behind and to either side?

[sihing]

They way I like to train students in perception abilities is to tell them to be aware of the set up signs the opponent gives you when you train everyday at the kwoon. Besides learning and practicing whatever technique you are doing at the time you can always practice your perception abilities and timing and distancing, which are the top 3 things that beginners mess up when they learn things in WC. I usually don't advise the Sidis about these types of strategies because they are just learning about themselves and the WC to, so it is reserved for the more advanced students to start incorporating with their normal training routine. Its a matter of focus, before as a beginner you are focused on learning the mechanics of the movements and balance, physical attributes. After, when all that stuff is learned your movement will be natural and correct, so you can concentrate on the other things that allow you to succeed in combat, the timing and perception things mentioned before.

For attacks from behind or to the side, we like to train that through multiple person sparring drills. Ideally you want to keep your opponent within a certain range so that you can always use your weapons equally, two arms and two legs, but this is not always possible so you use techniques like side kicks and fut sao or bil sao to defend. Also when faced with multiple attackers you try to put one in front of the other so that it takes them longer to get around one another to attack you. Running is also good to when faced with multiple attacker on the street.

James

[Armin]

Hi!

Sorry, that it takes me so long to answer - a lot of work, a wife and training keep me away from Internet. ;)

@ James:

I just watched Wong Shun's "Science of In-Fighting" and found that his WC was similar in ways to Cheung's WC, interesting indeed. After watching the tape and seeing Wong's skill I wondered why and how Leung Ting got more popular in Hong Kong when Wong was there too. IMO Wong is the more skilled. They say Ting is a marketing genius. Armin, do you find much difference between Ting's WC and Wong's WC?
You are right, Leung Ting is a marketing genius and was lucky finding one Keith Kernspecht. He built up one of the biggest organisations and that made Leung Ting well-known, at least outside of Hongkong. Fame in Hongkong came later.

As a William Cheung-student you may remember the "marketing-strategics" of Mr. Kernspecht: going to schools and martial arts-teachers and showing them "how good Wing Tsun is". Sad times, filled with shame.

Wong was a big fighter, if not THE fighter back in the 1950s and 1960s. His style is totally linear and very effective.

@Ben@HFY:

You write "... overhere in Europe".
Where in Europe are you?
The land of the Vice-World-Champion in Soccer - Germany! :D

You are form Netherlands, aren't you?


Greetings from Heidelberg,

Armin.

[sihing]

Just a slight correction Armin, I personally wasn't a student of William Cheung, my Sifu Brian Lewadny was in 86', and he was in Australia when Cheung came back from the German incident also. Since I wasn't a student of WC back then I didn't live that event at the time it happened but I did hear and read about it when I joined the WC school in 88'.

James

[Armin]

Hello James,

I think you mentioned that already. Hm, did you ever meet William Cheung? As far as I heard, his Gung Fu is very good. I read some of his books and of his articles and he seems to know, what he's doing.

How did it come, that your Sifu turned away form him (if you don't mind, to talk about this!!!)?


Regards,

Armin.

[sihing]

Armin,
Yes I have met GM Cheung. Once in 1990 at his 50th birthday party in Denver Colorado, there was a big seminar on, that was the first meeting. The second was in 1994 when my Sifu had GM Cheung tour his Canadian Schools. I was teaching in the Thunder Bay school and GM Cheung was there for 4 days, so I spent allot of time with him then. I found his sense of humor really good, he's a funny man, he told us lots of stories of his fighting experiences. He is very skilled and very fast and yes he does know his stuff. I think though that he is not teaching everything to everybody, and sometimes he forgets what he was supposed to teach, meaning it changes from one time to the next, but he is a true WC master for sure.

I won't comment on Sifu and us nolonger being with GM Cheung, as it is not my place to discuss things like this. I will say that Sifu has great respect for his Sifu William Cheung as we all do, and we wish him all the success.

James

[sihing]

Exchange Stage

In the contact stage of combat, the practitioner is only in contact with the extremities of the opponent (wrist and ankle distance). In Exchange Stage, contact is possible to the main body parts of the opponent, Trapping range is now upon us. In this stage finding the nearest elbow point and blindside fighting will enable one to end the confrontation quicker. One must be doing something at this stage and not just standing there occupying space. At this stage the WC chain punching makes its mark as the strike is very short and is very non telegraphic and can be applied repeatedly at this close range to the opponent. Sweeps, takedowns, a multitude of Chin-na techniques can be applied here also. I believe this is the best thing to do at this stage, lead the opponent to the ground and continue the attack from that vantage point, because it allows for less chance of retreat by the opponent, he has no where to go when I lead him to the ground and stick to him like glue. Various weapons/strategies can be used in this stage of combat, from fingers, to fists, elbows, shoulders, head butt, neck pulls, lop sao's, low line kicks, etc... Forward Intention is paramount now also, as you want to always move towards the center of your opponent to make the strikes most effective, and contact reflexes developed through chi-sao training is one of the advantages WC gives its practitioners, for when we are fighting in this close range one needs to develop keen reflexes to trap the opponents limbs and process the information that is coming in from the contact point very quickly.

James

[Armin]

Hi!

@ sihing:

one needs to develop keen reflexes
Do you train Chi Gerk?


Regards,

Armin.


PS: Sorry, have to go to work, that's why I'm so "short-asking".

[sihing]

Yes, we train in Chi-Gerk, but at the exchange stage it is very hard to use lower line kicks against us as we crowd the opponents foot by trapping it, making it more difficult to use any type of kick without us sweeping it out first. Of course anything can happen in a fight and sometimes even when you do not want it to happen someone may drift back to the contact stage from exchange stage(a backwards step with out the proper followup or Pursuit by us, which is the next stage of combat) and be able to use kicks more effectively then....

James

[sihing]

Stage #4- Pursuit

Sometimes the opponent may decide to retreat to reorganize their strategy or escape from your onslaught of attacks from all sorts of angles and lines while engaged in the exchange stage of fighting. When this happens you will have to pursue them to continue the attack and maintain the proper range for optimum effectiveness of WC attacks. I like to teach the students to use the metaphor of having a rope tied around both you and your opponents neck, connecting the two of you, with no more than a foot and half slack, this is trapping range and once there you shouldn't allow the opponent to escape back to punching or kicking ranges. Allowing this will mean that you have given the opponent another chance to engage you from a longer distance.

Full steps or half steps (combined with kicks) can be used here to keep the opponent in proper range. Applying lop sao's can also off balance the opponent to prevent them from moving and allow you to lead them to the ground and attack them from there. Occupying the proper space in accordance with your opponent will also make it more difficult for them to retreat. Once again the "Entry Technique or Pseudo Entry" may be used here also. It is advisable to stay to the same side of contact to the nearest elbow point.


Stage #5- Retreat
When in an unfavorable position one would step back in a side line stance on an angle using Fut Sao to protect the upper gate. One must return to the central line when facing the opponent for better protection when a safe distance is achieved. When this is the case you would return back to stage #1- Pre-Contact.

James

[Ryanjetli]

Quote " nothing wrong when apponent breaks away from trapping range".. That can and should only happen when u have done something wrong. The most dangerous time on the battle field between u and ur oppenent is the brigeing time frame. Since we learn to harmonize with our opponents energy he shouldn't be getting sent away. We take there space and keep it not give it back to them. we worked so hard to get there in the first place. Now that said it may happen but it should never be said there is nothing wrong with it. work on harmonizing u and ur opponents energy so he is really hitting himself

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ryanjetli
Quote " nothing wrong when apponent breaks away from trapping range".. That can and should only happen when u have done something wrong. The most dangerous time on the battle field between u and ur oppenent is the brigeing time frame. Since we learn to harmonize with our opponents energy he shouldn't be getting sent away. We take there space and keep it not give it back to them. we worked so hard to get there in the first place. Now that said it may happen but it should never be said there is nothing wrong with it. work on harmonizing u and ur opponents energy so he is really hitting himself

In a ideal world this is absolutely true, but the world is not ideal in any respect. The pursuit stage is for the moment you realize that the range is seperating, and that the hands/arms will no longer be the weapon of choice, it is then at this moment the legs start again to regain the proper positioning and placement, either with a pseudo entry or entry movement to bridge the distance and regain confidence in positioning.

James

[Ryanjetli]

Thats cool. " it is at this moment the legs start again. Thats probably the reason. Your legs don't just stop and are imobile. You should have stability and mobility. Thats probably why that situation is coming up.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ryanjetli
Thats cool. " it is at this moment the legs start again. Thats probably the reason. Your legs don't just stop and are imobile. You should have stability and mobility. Thats probably why that situation is coming up.

The legs never stopped moving, what I meant by that comment was that at closer ranges the legs as a attacking tool are not going to be used as effectively as the hands, but the legs have to always be mobile and ready to move/adjust, one should never root and stay stationary. If the opponent retreats in a fast enough manner, and temporarily steps out of trapping range, then at that instant the legs would be used to kick and return to the trapping range.

James

[Ryanjetli]

James that is true but i thought we were discussing the cause of why they me be able to retreat. If u were at the trapping stage or chum kiu stage of combat u should have there center and root since there space was collapsed u should be in there reaction time, follow with san da. To strike out of this time frame when u think u are really in it would allow them the reaction time to retreat. If they had the chance to retreat it was because we let them because we most likely failed to understand our space first. I won't dispute what u said in your reply but what i was trying to discuss is why we would end up in that situaion. What causes us to fail to really control center and root.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Ryanjetli
James that is true but i thought we were discussing the cause of why they me be able to retreat. If u were at the trapping stage or chum kiu stage of combat u should have there center and root since there space was collapsed u should be in there reaction time, follow with san da. To strike out of this time frame when u think u are really in it would allow them the reaction time to retreat. If they had the chance to retreat it was because we let them because we most likely failed to understand our space first. I won't dispute what u said in your reply but what i was trying to discuss is why we would end up in that situaion. What causes us to fail to really control center and root.

Yes, Ultimately you do not want them to be out of this close range, once you get there you try to stay there as best you can, but at times, in combat things do not always work out perfect, so when the opponent retreats back to the contact stage or further due in part to our failure to close the gap or set up the proper position in space and/or in part to the opponents own efforts to retreat, you have to pursue like mentioned in the above posts.

Ryan, combat is ever-changing and although we have concepts and principals to help us to be successful during a combat engagement, the opponent has will have lots to say as to how successful we will or won't be, so to say that one has failed when you let them retreat or make that option available to them you are correct, but something’s are out of one's control at times. I think it is better to have a backup plan also and train for that too than to just have one plan and expect it to work 100% of the time. Just some thoughts..

James

[Ryanjetli]

james. "if the opponent retreats in a fast enough manner" If u really have there center and i not just referring to center line but there CG they can not retreat in a fast enough manner, u own there center. If u have a proper foward energy and own there center what gives them the time to get away?

[Ryanjetli]

I know we are not perfect in combat but when training i think its best to try to understand the concept and get it right over training what to do because i didn't understand what i was really suppose to be doing. Like when people spend more time learning how to recover space from error instead of learning how to take space with a neutralization of energy.