On the matter of discipleship...

[Eric]

Hello all,

This post was inpsired by another thread asking about the difference between a student and disciple

I have often toyed with the idea of becoming a disciple to my sifu/system, but have found myself unable to bring the subject up with him due to the fact that I simply do not know if I will be living where I am now for the next 2 or more years. Doubting the future I guess.

I was hoping that perhaps some of those on this forum who have become disciples could share some insight to what it was that led them to make that decision, and also what they found was the biggest obstacle in becoming a disciple. How could you comitt to something like this for an entire lifetime?

Any takers?

[Eric]

Also,

So as not to discriminate against the non-disciples, for those who are not disciples, what is your view of discipleship?

[William E]

Eric

Thank you for your thought provoking question.

The matter of discipleship is not a simple one and as I mentioned before, not to be taken lightly. For me, there came a point in my training at the Hung Fa Kwoon where I truly identified with the HFY system and found that I was able to integrate the teachings beyond the kwoon to my everyday life. The more I practiced and learned, the more I wanted until it was finally a part of my life that could not be separated. Fortunately for me, my sifu recognized my dedication and allowed me to become part of the HFY family.

In the HFY system the only person to accept disciples is Grand Master Gee. The procedure would be for you to discuss this with your current sifu openly and honestly. He would then sponsor an interview between yourself and GM Gee in order to determine your level of commitment to the system and whether or not you would be asked to be a disciple.

There is certainly much more information and details concerning discipleship and I would be happy to address any of your specific concerns.

William E.

[Savi]

Eric,

For me, becoming a disciple was a very interesting event. Our sifu had been asked by many students to become disciples. Many were turned down. After several years, Sifu decided to select the ones he thought would be ideal for discipleship, based on a prolonged relationship with his todai.

To date, Sifu has brought JK and me to interview with GM Gee for discipleship with the HFY system.

As I learn more and more about my connection to the gung fu world and my relationship to the HFY family, as well as my energy, the more I understand what being a disciple is about. This is of course, on a personal level. "What it means to you" type thing. I believe a disciple must also ask, "What can I do for you" type question. It is always a two way street.

For me, I do a lot of art and graphics for our family, I love coaching and teaching people (art and teaching seems to be my energy), as well as doing some PR here and there. Being able to "quickly" absorb gung fu seems to be my second nature; as you know, Sifu calls me the "Kung Fu Sponge". This is one of the characteristics Sifu identified in my nature.

Being Daisihing for our branch school also has certain responsibilities, such as: knowing our curriculum, knowing where each of the students are at in their training, knowing how each one learns and being able to bring out the best in them, meeting Sifu's needs and standards, help direct and organize events - both public and private, having projects and assignments to fulfill and more.

These are some of the things I feel I can do that illustrate my life as a disciple. I do see, however, that each of the disciples in the HFY family have their own responsibilites, and I think that is based on their energy.

One of the things I find fascinating in that, is that not all disciples are the same, nor do they all do the same things. In the past, some of our ancestors were Chan monks, and others were Chan warriors. I can only guess as to how vast this "universe" truly is, and how far it's reach is in the existence of Life.

I think one of the most important things is what SSG William said about identifying how the system is connected to everything in life. One of the most important lessons/tests in my life was taken over the course of the recent few months. I faced the reality of figuring exactly how I needed to use what I have learned in my gung fu training to balance my personal life. All I can say is, Balance is the key to survival, and I have survived and I am still alive... ;)!

When GM Gee interviewed me for discipleship, I explained to him my heart, my perception, my nature and what it means to me about becoming and entering the world of disciples. I am still learning more and more everyday about it, but I recognize the path. I think it is a tough decision if you do not truly know your ultimate direction in life or who you are. As I see it, you have to be true to your nature.

I know where A is, and I know where Z is, but the learning takes place in all the letters inbetween...

[Eric]

William and Savi, thanks for sharing!

What you two have told me is definately helpful as I contemplate this further. However, I'm still somewhat in the dark about exactly how discipleship happens, and how it changes you from being but a simple student into something else.

[Savi]

Originally posted by vkays1
However, I'm still somewhat in the dark about exactly how discipleship happens, and how it changes you from being but a simple student into something else. 1. Do you mean how the ceremony goes?

2. What do you mean exactly about "it changes you... into something else"? Before I make any assumptions about how you might see it, let me ask: "How do you see it?" ;)

[Allen Kong]

Eric,

Using some of the ideas from the other threads on discipleship/student teachings, let me share with you my thoughts.

There are many decisions made each and everyday by everyone of us. We decide to eat at a certain restaurant. We decide to shop at a certain mall. We pick a major at the university we are attending. In relation, something made us join a martial arts school. We joined the school for "self defense" or a "fitness club" feeling.

As your growth in the kung fu school continues, you begin to assist your Sifu/sihing teach some beginners, helped your Sifu in organizing an event, or stayed late to help sweep the floors, etc.. Something during that time period "clicked" for you and now your committment to the school is more than just paying your tuition and attending the classes. The "change" has already taken place without you knowing. As time continues, your skills, your make-up, your place in the school, etc. are being noticed.

The discipleship topic can now be brought up and be discussed by you and your Sifu, at your Sifu's convenience. The discussion/decision with your Sifu will then guide you and give you the proper direction, the so-called "next step" in your kung fu journey.

Becoming a disciple is a lifetime committment. You don't live an ordinary life anymore. As stated in the other thread, you are now the "eye" of the system when you Sifu is not around. You do what you can for your Sifu, the school, and the system. Your name is now forever imprinted on the family tree.


Allen Kong

[Savi]

Originally posted by Allen Kong
There are many decisions made each and everyday by everyone of us. We decide to eat at a certain restaurant. We decide to shop at a certain mall. We pick a major at the university we are attending. In relation, something made us join a martial arts school. We joined the school for "self defense" or a "fitness club" feeling.

As your growth in the kung fu school continues, you begin to assist your Sifu/sihing teach some beginners, helped your Sifu in organizing an event, or stayed late to help sweep the floors, etc.. Something during that time period "clicked" for you and now your committment to the school is more than just paying your tuition and attending the classes. The "change" has already taken place without you knowing.... Allen Kong I believe this is very very true. Eric, our Sifu once said (paraphrasing), promotions (in your "everyday" job) are not awarded because you are capable/ready to do what is next. Promotions are awarded because you are already doing what is next.

SBGA Allen is 100% on target.

"The change has taken place without you knowing"

That could not be said any better, IMO.

Then again, Morpheus also said: "Don't think you are, know you are."

I like SBGA's wisdom better.

[duende]

Just like my Sihing Allen said... Being a disciple is no simple matter. With it comes the great responsibility of preserving the system.

This is no simple matter by any means. A regular student can learn their kung fu and develope their skills.

The disciple on the other hand has to be able to fully convey the very essence of the system. This means that after we have experienced and grown through all the seasons of the HFY system... That only then will we be true disciples and be able to carry on the system. At that time, once we reach the top of the WC mountain... when we speak about HFY Kung Fu, it will be the same as if you were listening to any disciple speak from an earlier generation.

Nothing short of this is acceptable.

[Eric]

Quoting Savi:

1. Do you mean how the ceremony goes?

2. What do you mean exactly about "it changes you... into something else"? Before I make any assumptions about how you might see it, let me ask: "How do you see it?"


1. I've seen parts of the tea ceremony before, but if I could have a rundown of how it all works, that would be very cool.

2. Really I'm not sure how to explain it. To be perfectly honest, when I first started I viewed it as simply some sort of exclusive club, either you were in it and got the VIP treatement or you didn't. Nowadays, however, I see it more as sort of a mantle you have to wear; something that pushes you and makes you to be more than just who you are, simply by the weight of it on your shoulders. Does that make sense?

[Eric]

SBG Allen,

You've put into words perfectly alot of what I've been thinking/feeling over the past months, especially this month.

You've given me some things to think on, I'm sure I'll post them a bit later when I can vocalize them more clearly.

[Savi]

Originally posted by vkays1
1. I've seen parts of the tea ceremony before, but if I could have a rundown of how it all works, that would be very cool. I'd rather tell you in person, unless some of the other disciples don't mind sharing here...
Originally posted by vkays1
2. Really I'm not sure how to explain it. To be perfectly honest, when I first started I viewed it as simply some sort of exclusive club, either you were in it and got the VIP treatement or you didn't. Nowadays, however, I see it more as sort of a mantle you have to wear; something that pushes you and makes you to be more than just who you are, simply by the weight of it on your shoulders. Does that make sense? I think so, but I do not believe it is a matter of "having" to wear the responsibilities, but a choice. Once you identify with your nature, it is up to you to either harmonize with yourself, or not. Hope I'm not being too vague?

[Savi]

Eric, others... I just remembered another thread that was in discussion about discipleship. One I never tire of reading...

Relevancy of Titles (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=546)

There is a great amount of valued information there. As well as here ;).

[Eric]

Hello again everyone,

Sorry for the long delay in my reply, work has kept me busy lately, plus i needed time to ponder this completely.

Savi, you said that it was up to me to harmonize with myself, with the nature of being a disciple. Isn't that is assuming my nature is that of a disciple? I'm not sure I fully understand this, as I thought the point of being a disciple, partially at least from the impression duende has given me, is that you do not identify with yourself, but rather Hung Fa Yi. Almost, in essance, shelving what you are away and letting the holes be filled with your kung fu. I guess I consider this more as a mold of conduct, skill and knowledge that needs to be met, and only if you fit that mold well enough can you be a disciple. (Suddenly I have a visual of a child trying to put the box through the circle hole...)

SBG Allen, I've got to question your statment that the change has happened without me knowing, and probably that changes in the future would continue without me knowing. Personally, I can look back on several defining moments in my kung fu growth that led me to where I am. These events were very conscious choices, although in retrospect, had i not chosen what i did, I wouldn't be here asking this question :) Is that perhaps what you mean? That this unconscious change is something that happens by nature of our system, weeding those who can't go on out?

If I may ask, SBG Allen and Savi, do you feel you unconsciously were a disciple even before there ceremony?

And this is just for Savi: It seems this post was "inevitable"

[Savi]

Originally posted by vkays1
Savi, you said that it was up to me to harmonize with myself, with the nature of being a disciple. Isn't that is assuming my nature is that of a disciple? I'm not sure I fully understand this, as I thought the point of being a disciple, partially at least from the impression duende has given me, is that you do not identify with yourself, but rather Hung Fa Yi. Almost, in essance, shelving what you are away and letting the holes be filled with your kung fu. I guess I consider this more as a mold of conduct, skill and knowledge that needs to be met, and only if you fit that mold well enough can you be a disciple...

And this is just for Savi: It seems this post was "inevitable" Well, yes and yes. You need both I'd say.

A better question to ask is: "Is it in your nature to be a disciple?"

What is the nature of a disciple? That is a good question as well.

Not everyone who identifies with their nature becomes a disciple. We all have different natures. Your nature is your nature, but identifying with the Hung Fa Yi system is the bottom line (from my current POV). I see it as a compatibility thing. Can you commit to something if you don't know yourself/your nature? It can be a gamble.

Do you want to commit your life to upholding the universal laws that HFY wields? You must be devoted to preserving the knowledge of HFY, and apply it in your life. Do you see its wisdoms and its connections to the whole of life? Is it your calling? You must also know what kind of responsibilities there are to being a disciple, and how that will impact the life you see. Once realized, can you accept it?

As I am learning everyday, little by little, it is a difficult path at times (when faced with adversity). I don't think that statement though is exclusive to disciples, as any path in life will have its own difficulties, but it is one that requires your discipline and knowing yourself through the HFY system and being able to use it to face your adversity. Can you see things through the system?

No one but GM Gee can accept disciples into the HFY system. It would be a good idea to converse with him in addition to conversing with current disciples (you must also speak with our Sifu).

Just my two cents... but I could be wrong. Can't wait for more responses!

[Savi]

From www.hungfakwoon.com

Hung Fa Yi Bai Si - Discipleship

- Allen Kong 9th Generation HFY Disciple (San Francisco)



When an individual chooses and joins a martial arts school, there instantly starts a Sifu-student relationship with the Master of the school. You are considered one of the regular students and nothing is asked of you, nothing is demanded of you, as you are just there to learn kung fu. This individual typically sees the martial arts school as a hobby and as such their attendance may be sporadic. As a result, the progression of the individual may also be sporadic and unpredictable.

The longer a student trains the more likely they will no longer identify their kung fu training as just a hobby. That individual now wants to get a deeper understanding of the system. To some this may mean entering an instructors program where they can obtain a certification to teach the art and potentially make a profession out of Kung Fu and being a professional martial artist. There is another level of student who truly identifies with the system and wishes to make a lifetime commitment to the system and the family. Bai Si, also known as discipleship, is the next step the individual would take to be accepted into the Kung Fu family.

The term “Bai Si” should not be taken lightly. The traditional Bai Si ceremony may last for many days filled with activities ranging from taking oaths, tea (offering) ceremony, and much celebration. The tea offering, in traditional sense, dictates whether the individual is being accepted in the kung fu family or not. The tea, offered to the candidate, may be spiced, very hot, very cold, or even has a bad odor. Consumption of the tea (offered by the Master of the system) without hesitation symbolizes ones loyalty and their promise to preserve the knowledge of the kung fu family and the system. Consumption of the tea by the Master symbolizes the acceptance of the candidate into the kung fu family.

After being accepted into the kung fu family, one is thought to be closer to the Master of the system then his/her own family/siblings. You are now in the eye of the system. Anything thing you do and don’t do will have a very important meaning, not only to the school, but to the Master and the system. Bai Si, as in the eastern thinking, is always thought of as the actual time when you start to learn kung fu. Beforehand, there may be corrections here and there, but now, you get the in depth understanding of the system. As the training continues, the proper etiquette is to not ask for more material. The Sifu will know your progression and your period of advancement.

Bai Si, as explained, is a very important step and part in the kung fu family. Oaths, pledges, and promises are repeated and upheld by the individual throughout the course of the individual’s standing in the family. With the proper guidance from the Master of the system, the disciples will carry on the system to the following generations.