HFY Gong Sau Fighter - Alan Chow Rocks!

[sauchi]

For those of you had recently heard his name and for anybody who wants to know what our gong sao fighter Alan Chow looks like you can go to our www.hungfakwoon.com to see him standing next to Sifu Gee wearing a yellow tee shirt from one of the Daly City Kwoon pictures.

He is one of our members who is very active in private Gong Sau.




S ---

[Savi]

There are two class pictures for 1980-1990 within the "additional" photo gallery for GM Gee. The top one has many of the members in black outfits (one with a yellow shirt). In the second one, all the students are wearing yellow shirts. I think you are referring to the one with all the yellow shirts, ya?

It looks like SBG Allen Kong is on the left side of the picture next to GM Gee (his right shoulder). Would Alan Chow be the one next to GM Gee's left shoulder (right side of picture)?

Thank you,
-Savi.

[sauchi]

Hey Savi,

Yes you are right!

Alan is standing to the left of Sifu Gee and is on the right side of Sifu facing us. Allen Kong is on the other side of Sifu Gee.

You might remember him. He Chi Saoed with you in the airport for the First HFY Seminar in AZ.

Sauchi

[Savi]

I vaguely remember that! But if he has knocked down JJ guys and boxers without getting hit, he has no doubt found himself! Will he be at the March Seminar in SF?

[sauchi]

I wish that Alan could make it.

But these days he is really really busy.
He is working towards his electricians journeymans licences and is really focased on passing his electricans apprenticeship program that is why he temporarily took a leave of absences of the HFY training.

He said that after his program is finished he will be at HFY headquarters full time.

I'm sure you will meet him in the near future. And if you like you could touch hands with him too.

If you ask to touch hands I doubt that he would every let you down. :D

[Cang Long]

Ok duende, William, Ricky can some one give us the details behind the actual Gong Sau. Was it formal informal? I hear that Allan Chow is not really that big how big was the guy he was up against what lineage is he from and what level student is Allan? I am sure I'll have more questions but if someone could answer these first I would appreciate it. Thanks in advance

[Allen Kong]

Allan Chow is about 5'7" and 150 lbs. Prior to this encounter, he had won two "gong sau" fights, with one of those guys weighing 260 lbs and the other 6'2" 300 lbs. Both of those guys were from other styles of Martial Arts.

Due to the politics that goes on in the San Francisco Bay Area, I chose to be discreet as to what lineage of wing chun this person belongs to. This person has over 24 years of experience under this lineage. Allan Chow, himself, has just started the chum kiu level (level 4) in the HFY system.


Allen Kong

[sihing]

So, are these friendly type challenge matches? How do they work and what are the rules. After the two fight do you all go out for coffee after? Just curious, Thanks.

James

[duende]

The rules are that everything goes. Full contact bare-knuckle fighting... nothing formal about it.

Basically, Alan was invited to this particular challenge with only 10 minutes notice. Showed up, and knocked the guy to the ground in 5 seconds.

After the obvious ending of the Gong Sau challenge, they then spent the next hour and a half doing Chi Sau where Alan dropped the guy 6 or 7 times flat on the floor again. However this time Alan held his punches so as to not hurt the guy unnecessarily.

Do you all have Gong Sau chanllenges up there in Canada? Are they often kept under the radar like down here??

[sihing]

I imagine so, but know one's come in to challenge us since I've lived here in Calgary. I was challenged once back in Thunder Bay, by a rival MA club. The teacher of the rival school was mad at us because we used the words "Learn the most effectiv Martial Art in the world" in our advertising. So one of his students came by posing as a prospect and when the students left the training area he challenged me to find out. To make the story short I told him to throw the first punch and after a stare down he left. Two years later he apologized to me saying his teacher had brainwashed him into doing it. My Sihing, when he was living and teaching in Toronto at the school had some semi challenge type matches, chi-sao matches too, he had no problem with any of them, he's got good forward intention too for a smaller guy.

James

[Cang Long]

duende
The rules are that everything goes. Full contact bare-knuckle fighting... nothing formal about it. Has Allan been in any formal Gong Saus?
Basically, Alan was invited to this particular challenge with only 10 minutes notice. Showed up, and knocked the guy to the ground in 5 seconds. Do you know why Allan was given such short notice and is the guy that lost planning a visit to the SF kwoon for some pointers maybe or to just pay respect to Grand Master Gee?

[duende]

Hey Tony,

Formal implies to me a fighting rings and rules... basic things for public consumption. Informal implies to me real challenges where anything goes like at a park or underground fight clubs.

No he hasn't done any formal Gong Sau to my knowledge.

Alan was given short notice merely because that's how the time where everyone could meet presented itself.

I don't think the other guy has any intention of coming to our kwoon. As that would mean serious loss of face for his Sifu of 23 years. Lets just say that he and his fellow Sihingdais who were presented now have a new found respect for HFY.

[Louie]

word

[Cang Long]

ditto Louie, no doubt,


Was this other fighter looking for a different lineage to challenge or was he specifically looking to challenge our HFY family and after 23 years of experience was he able to understand the difference between HFY kiu sau and HFY chi sau if in fact he was good enough to get that far ;)

[duende]

Thanks Louie....

Tony...

Yes, I do think this other fighter had a particular interest in meeting HFY in a real challenge. As you may know... WC schools in the Bay Area can be very political. This latest incident was just yet another in what is becoming a long line of wake up calls for this school in particular.

Did the other fighter learn about Kiu Sau or Chi Kiu??? No... That's would be too deep of learning to grasp in just one meeting. What he did learn for sure, is a new found awareness of what it's like to get hit in the head.

I know that sounds funny... But the truth of the matter is that many WC schools just practice protecting their middle gate. With no real awareness of upper or lower gate attacks or defenses.

He also leaned the signifigance of body structure based on actually physics... and not just because it is an expression of your particular system. Real world tests bring this to light real quick.

[Cang Long]

I know that sounds funny... But the truth of the matter is that many WC schools just practice protecting their middle gate. With no real awareness of upper or lower gate attacks or defenses. That really is an excellent point duende. This is visible in their SLT when I think back on some of the different SNT expressions I have witnessed.

[Cang Long]

He also leaned the signifigance of body structure based on actually physics... and not just because it is an expression of your particular system. Real world tests bring this to light real quick. duende, this too is interesting because when we attend class as we all do and we partner up we feed off our partners learn from them and teach both. This is not the first time I have heard of 2 different families touching hands but the person with lesser skill was not interested in learning from the one with demonstrated superior skill. You mentioned a loss of face but still this is picular to me.

[sihing]

Originally posted by duende
I know that sounds funny... But the truth of the matter is that many WC schools just practice protecting their middle gate. With no real awareness of upper or lower gate attacks or defenses.
He also leaned the signifigance of body structure based on actually physics... and not just because it is an expression of your particular system. Real world tests bring this to light real quick.

Yes I agree to with this assessment. Most WC players are great at protecting that part of the body, neglecting the computer center we call the brain/head area. Makes no sense to me why they do this but... The way we hold our Man/Wu sao in my school is similar to the HFY way, except in one regard. Our back Wu sao elbow position is further out and to the side. To describe it try to imagine this in the SLT form. When performing our Tan Sao our elbow is approximately the same length away from the solar plexus as the extended pinky finger and thumb rule, put your extended thumb on the elbow and extended pinky on the solar plexus and your distance is correct, with the tan palm face height and the inner elbow along the centerline. Once the elbow is in this position it will not move further away or closer to the body for the rest of the 1st section of SLT, it only moves directly sideways, while the Wu sao comes back on the centerline, with the fingers nose height, and the elbow line lower than the wrist line. When in neutral stance, meaning everything square straight ahead(feet, hips, shoulders all in line straight) you would only see the side of the palm in the mirror, but in side neutral stance(feet, knees, shoulders facing 45deg either way depending on lead guard) you would be able to see the entire palm, with the pinky side further out than the thumb. Hopefully someday I can get some pictures of this so you all can see it someday, lol. The lead Man Sao would be formed in SLT when the Tan goes from Huen to Jut, then Man sao, with the arm approximately 3/4 of the way out, fingers nose height pointed straight up and wrist ****ed back, forearm, inner elbow down the centerline. With this guard, and the proper foot positions in place with relation to the opponent(foot and knee of opponent down middle of your side neutral stance) you would not have to move either hand to defend a attack the middle/upper gates. Forward Intention is developed through SLT practice to maintain a good strong structure in this stage of combat.

Also, in the picture of GM Gee and Alan Chow, was that from the 90's? Earlier in this thread it says he is only a level 4(Chum Kil) level student, so how long has he been involved with HFY Wing Chun then.


James

[Cang Long]

Sihing,
When you see someone from outside your family perform SLT generally what are the first thoughts that come to your mind?

[sihing]

That they are doing in incorrectly, lol.

The TWC guys to which I used to be a part of call most of the WC out there modified WC, that is the name GM Cheung gave it, call his the traditional version as Yip Man passed it to him. We are no longer associated with GM Cheung, so Sifu prefers to call the modified "Hard Style" WC and GM Cheung version "Soft Style". Sifu first learned the Hard Style, with the piegon toed stances, back in the mid 70's then Soft Style in 86', so he is familar with both but more or less prefers the Soft Style although we do things differently than GM Cheung, for example in the SLT, during the first part like I mentioned in my previous post, we do not have the elbow come closer to the body once they tan is out there but GM Cheung collapses his elbow once his Wu Sao comes back from Tan/Huen/Jut, to go into the Fok part of the form.

James

[Cang Long]

Also, in the picture of GM Gee and Alan Chow, was that from the 90's? Earlier in this thread it says he is only a level 4(Chum Kil) level student, so how long has he been involved with HFY Wing Chun then. James,
It sounds like you may be associating level of training and time trained together. You might do well to understand that at that particular time GM Gee was training hand selected students in 5 different locations and that they each studied directly with him periodically as their schedules would allow. So though Allan Chow is a 4th level technician his time in training will obviously vary with that of other 4th level technicians just so you know.

[Cang Long]

How unfortunate planetwc just started naming names over on KFO.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
How unfortunate planetwc just started naming names over on KFO.

IMHO, he is the whiner at Ben Der's school --This individual sees the glass half empty.

[Cang Long]

Yes, I agree he often post about fighting and then he ask to be left out of it because he is too old. I am not even sure if his Sifu provided him with a glass.

[Hungman]

Did I hear the name of Vince Lee?


"23 years?
There are VERY few students at the San Jose school with at least 23 years in.

Steve Wong, Sandy Wong and Vince Lee have probably more than that, as to 23 years exactly, no one I can remember. Do you know who this person was?"--by planetwc

[Cang Long]

Hungman,
Sound like you heard what I heard.

[Hungman]

"About the only fighting skill Wing Chun is renowned for today is what we are engaging in now--VERBAL infighting."--by planetwc


Tony,

Do you have any idea what he's talking about?


"MMA guys would rightly look at this kind of thread and just laugh at the wannabees."--by planetwc


Do Vince Lee and Alan Chow have reason to be offended, or should we just accept that planetwc is what he is, ignore him and not say anything?

[Cang Long]

Vince and Alan share something real and small minded people like planetwc can never erase that shared experience.

I have heard it said that ingnorance is bliss but when its time for a reality check of your time your space and your energy there is no room for ignorance. As much as we want it to be so not everyone will attain their buddha nature or acquire their eye of the tiger or unlock their spirit of the dragon understanding this we see pawns for pawns and kings for kings and appreciate each for what they truly are nothing more nothing less.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Vince and Alan share something real and small minded people like planetwc can never erase that shared experience.

I have heard it said that ingnorance is bliss but when its time for a reality check of your time your space and your energy there is no room for ignorance.

Tony,

Our intelligence, prudence, and courage, even our beauty, must always be ready for trail.

Now I realize it's not because of game strategy, it's for peace of mind. Until next time, may you all be happy, healthy and hopeful.


HM

[HFY Eagle]

Greetings

A little bird told me that a couple of Ken Chung's boys paid a visit to our kwoon in TX. From what I heard it was quite an interesting encounter. Whay are they so infatuated with Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun anyway? :confused:

One of these days they are going to challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as "accomodating" as Allen or Daniel.

Maybe Daniel would be so kind as to share his experience with everyone here on this board if people are interested.

John

:D

[Op108wc]

San Francisco, Houston....

Gong Sao and Chi Sao situations are the occasions to create a name for oneself - "body karma", and if a noble mind sees honor at stake, he will do the work of thousands.

Nice job Alan Chow and Daniel!!!

Thanks Brothers!


El

[Cang Long]

One of these days they are going to challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as "accomodating" as Allen or Daniel. John,
at the rate they are seeking out HFY that day can not be too far off, fortunatley or unfortunately depends on your perspective. It will be nice to read that review as well.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by HFY Eagle
One of these days they are going to challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as "accomodating" as Allen or Daniel.

Daniel,

Congratulations on your first encounter.

:frog:

"the wrong person" :confused:

Elton, you must be one of these wrong persons!:D :D ;)


Pete

[Savi]

Daniel was at the last seminar that was held in AZ, and I must say he is quite a gentleman! He shows respect and deserves respect. Daniel's first experience is a good one, and those Ken Chung "we're here to network with other WC guys" people are asking for trouble the more and more they try to stir up nonsense with our family.

I already heard they are spreading mistruth about the encounter.

It isn't worth engaging other people who visit you, when you know there's some agenda behind their actions.

[Zhuge Liang]

Speaking about spreading mistruths, I don't believe anyone here other than Alan personally witnessed the workout with Vince. I don't know what happened in Texas, but as far as the Vince/Alan issue, I believe the issue is settled between them, so let's leave it at that, shall we?

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Op108wc]

I don't know what happened in Texas,

Hung Fa Kwoon (Texas)... they don't open their eyes to see!!!!

[Op108wc]

Elton, you must be one of these wrong persons!:D :D ;)



Oh Pete! I'm hard of hearing.

I live to know and to know myself.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Speaking about spreading mistruths, I don't believe anyone here other than Alan personally witnessed the workout with Vince. I don't know what happened in Texas, but as far as the Vince/Alan issue, I believe the issue is settled between them, so let's leave it at that, shall we?

Regards,
Zhuge Liang


Shall we?

There are two sets of people who can guard themselves from spreading mistruths: those who have learned by experiencing it at their own cost and those who have observed it at the cost of others.

Regards
Pete

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Pete,

[i]Originally posted by Hungman
There are two sets of people who can guard themselves from spreading mistruths: those who have learned by experiencing it at their own cost and those who have observed it at the cost of others.[/B]

Thanks, that was my point. No one here besides Alan either "experienced" or "observed" the incident.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

originally posted by Zhuge Liang
Speaking about spreading mistruths, I don't believe anyone here other than Alan personally witnessed the workout with Vince. I don't know what happened in Texas, but as far as the Vince/Alan issue, I believe the issue is settled between them, so let's leave it at that, shall we? Alan,
have you actually read this thread this thread is just another informative one among many this particular topic just happens to be about Gong Sau there really is nothing in this thread for you to object to? As for "issues" we try not to harbor any around here so if you find any most likely if you look in the mirror you will also find the source of any perceived issues. Everyone's input is welcome but at this point I personally see no reason to close this thread or to discontinue this discussion, thank you just the same.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,

I'm not actually objecting to anything. If everyone's input is welcomed, then my input is simply that since no one here other than Alan was there to observe what happened first hand, and since the issue is already settled between Alan and Vince, we should let it rest. Is that so unreasonable?

As for the thread, I see no reason to close it or stop the discussion either.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

As for the thread, I see no reason to close it or stop the discussion either. Glad we agree.

Hi Alan,
What portion of this thread is causing you to think the "issue" is not settled I am not reading it can you be more specific.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that a couple of people here think that "Ken Chung's boys" are "seeking out HFY" with some hidden "agenda" and will one day "challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as 'accomodating' as Allen or Daniel" leads me to believe there are chips on a couple of shoulders. But then again, it may be as you say, that it's all in my head. :)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the fact that a couple of people here think that "Ken Chung's boys" are "seeking out HFY" with some hidden "agenda" and will one day "challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as 'accomodating' as Allen or Daniel" leads me to believe there are chips on a couple of shoulders. But then again, it may be as you say, that it's all in my head.
Alan,
Nothing covert in what has transpired here. You would have us believe it is coincedence that HFY keeps meeting up with Kenneth Cheung. Well we already know from Alan Chow that he was specifically saught out because he was HFY, so what's your point. We all see the agenda its not hidden and what HFY Eagle was gracious enough to remind us all of is the fact that most of the individuals doing Gong Sau thus far have all been shall we say new school and should one of our other HFY members be contacted for a Gong Sau by one of your members or any other family that Gong Sau just might go old school. You may percieve this anyway you like "chips on shoulders" cookies on tables whatever you like the reality of the situation is this when you play with fire there is a good chance you will get burned and so it is if you play Kung Fu it would be wise to know your time space and energy.Gong Sao and Chi Sao situations are the occasions to create a name for oneself - "body karma", and if a noble mind sees honor at stake, he will do the work of thousands.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Tony is dead on.
Their has been no mis truths as you speak of Zhuge Liang, all encounters are from honest people who gain nothing by sharing experiences. All your comments (Zhuge Liang) lead me to believe that the mis truths are not what you read here, at least from the members of HFY but from another side of the coin. I think the point that some of us are trying to make is that we have no problems with other families wanting to experience HFY but the after rumors are what destroy trust. As well as if some one from another family is just testing HFY to try and discredit its name then these matters are not taken lightly. and if a noble mind sees honor at stake, he will do the work of thousands. After all, even you yourself have tried to discredit the encounters between the two as well as post that there was no hidden agenda, which we all know is not true, but you don't deny that they saut out HFY. So, whats the point in seeking out if your not looking for anything? As for any one having chips on their shoulders, we all understand and see thing differently its finding a common ground that should be sought.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony, James,

LOL, you guys can spin it however you wish, I just offered my view. After all, all opinions are "welcomed", are they not? ;)

With regards to the Vince/Alan issue, what's been promoted here as the truth is only a one sided view. There are other versions of the story as well. But unless either Alan or Vince go on the record recounting what really happened, and the accounts are verified by a 3rd party witness (and there were witnesses), it's all heresay and I suggest we all take the stories with a grain of salt.

As for "seeking out HFY", I will admit that's true. But in the same sense that we seek out any wc practioners for any other family, for the purposes of broadening our view of WCK. We've "sought out" people from Emin Bozetepe's, Gary Lam's, Augustine Fong's, Cho family's, Sum Nung's, Cheung Bo's, Leung Ting's, Lo Man Kam's, Robert Chu's, and even Chris Chan's. You guys are the only ones who believe we have some sort of secret agenda against you just because we "seek you out". Everybody else we "sought out" met and worked out with us on very good terms. You can ask anyone who's ever met me whether or not they got the impression that I had some agenda against their family.

And as for Vince seeking out Alan, that's only partially true. According to the story I heard, mutual friend of Vince and Alan asked Vince if he wanted to work out with a HFY guy. Vince said sure, and the mutual acquaintence called Alan up. Alan came over and they worked out. Now again, that's just the story I heard. Certainly less romantic than the version portrayed by Alex. Maybe Alan can corroborate or correct this version of the story.


the reality of the situation is this when you play with fire there is a good chance you will get burned


LOL, I guess I just like to live dangerously. ;) But thanks for the advice Tony, I'll keep it in mind.


As well as if some one from another family is just testing HFY to try and discredit its name then these matters are not taken lightly... So, whats the point in seeking out if your not looking for anything?

You're under no obligation to believe me of course, but I "seek people out" for the same reason I go to the library or do research on the internet. To learn. So to answer your question, I am looking for something, just not what you think I'm looking for (e.g. a conspiricy to defame HFY).

Thankfully, there are some HFY guys yet who don't believe I'm out to get them, and hopefully in the future we can meet and exchange knowledge to both our benefit.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[JamesHFYofAZ]

With regards to the Vince/Alan issue, what's been promoted here as the truth is only a one sided view. There are other versions of the story as well. But unless either Alan or Vince go on the record recounting what really happened, and the accounts are verified by a 3rd party witness (and there were witnesses), it's all heresay and I suggest we all take the stories with a grain of salt. Maybe you would like to invite Vince over here because Alan(Gongsaugonewild) is already here. You go on to say you know there was a 3rd party involved so what makes you then state that there would need to be one.Maybe Alan can corroborate or correct this version of the story. Just because you don't see it here what makes you think he hasn't.

More to the point Alan we have stated this several times but obviously because it may not pertain to you or other families you ignore it but it does pertain to traditional Kung Fu Families which we are.
1. We have one Grand Master and holder of the system Grand Master Gee.

2. When HFY memebers participate in anything first and foremost they conduct themselves with Mo Duk and Yi. We really don't take kindly to being called liars!

We have no reason to lie about anything so if you would like to point out who in particular you believe to be propogating these untruths please do so if not your generalizations should be directed at Vince then find the 3rd party individual to satify your curiousity because what is posted here are verifiable facts.

Fact October 9th, 2004, an informal Gong Sau was issued
Fact The agreement was to begin the Gong Sau via Chi Sau challenge, for 1 hr 30 min.
Fact Vince has over 23 yrs of experience in your families system(Kennteth Cheung).
Fact Alan Chow a 3rd Level Chum Kiu HFY student on & off 5yrs.
Fact Alan repeatedly struck Vince to the face and knocked him down.
Fact Vince pushed Alan up against the couch and then got kicked.
Fact Alan's experience lead him to believe that Vince was lacking in centerline theories and concepts which made chi sauing with him rather easy.
I also understand that Vincent was also respectful throughout the Gong Sau, and gave due credit to Grandmaster Gee – speaking very highly of him. He also told Alan that his Chi Sau was very good.
In the exchange that took place only one group might feel the need to come back and "spin" the truth for whatever reason, that group is clearly not here. Good luck in your search for knowledge.

[Cang Long]

LOL, I guess I just like to live dangerously.But thanks for the advice Tony, I'll keep it in mind.
You may want to ask Vince before you set off down that path he may have some time saving advice about the perils of that path. LOL ;)

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Fact is, in gung fu tradition any challenge on an individual regardless of it being a chi sau or gong sau match, is not a challenge on one mans skill but a challenge on a families name but their histories honor. So when people from another family approach HFY and ask to test its skill it is not taken "with a grain of salt" but as a direct challenge to the family, anything after that is considered an accommodation (hence the hour and a half of chi sau between allen and vince).
Other facts, History has a way of repeating itself and a good example is the HFY club in Texas and its most resent encounter with the Chung family once again. They were visited by two students both calming four years experience one of which started his bui ji level took the free class then stuck around and asked to chi sau.
Fact Danial(two years experience) had just started to learn chi sau, having less then ten hours training. He asked his sifus permission before doing so which is proper educate.
The facts point that history is in the family name. We should look at any challenge not as a game of chi Say but a mark in the names history.
Gong Sao and Chi Sao situations are the occasions to create a name for oneself - "body karma", and if a noble mind sees honor at stake, he will do the work of thousands. History show us as it repeats and truth comes out through time!

[Cang Long]

You're under no obligation to believe me of course, but I "seek people out" for the same reason I go to the library or do research on the internet. To learn. So to answer your question, I am looking for something, just not what you think I'm looking for (e.g. a conspiricy to defame HFY). Alan,
Sure we understand this what I and other HFY members try to point out to you and others on this topic is you go to class or train and you are left with questions, in Hung Fa Yi we go to class and train and we are met with answers. Plain and simple Vince had questions too now he has more answers.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi James,

Maybe you would like to invite Vince over here because Alan(Gongsaugonewild) is already here. You go on to say you know there was a 3rd party involved so what makes you then state that there would need to be one. Just because you don't see it here what makes you think he hasn't.


Well, I personally wouldn't mind if both Vince and Alan went on the record retelling what actually happened. All we have so far is heresay from people who weren't involved, myself included. As such, I recommened everyone take the stories, including my own, with a grain of salt. Doesn't seem so unreasonable to me. No need to get so worked up about it.


1. We have one Grand Master and holder of the system Grand Master Gee.

I've had the pleasure of meeting Gee sifu. He was a scholar and a gentleman.


2. When HFY memebers participate in anything first and foremost they conduct themselves with Mo Duk and Yi. We really don't take kindly to being called liars!

Good for you. No one is calling anyone a liar. I simply pointed out that second-hand stories are perhaps not as accurate as first-hand accounts. Do you disagree with that?

... because what is posted here are verifiable facts.

Actually, they are not. All that was posted here is heresay. The people directly involved have not gone on the record recounting what happened. There has been no independent 3rd party verification of any version of the story.

Fact October 9th, 2004, an informal Gong Sau was issued. Fact The agreement was to begin the Gong Sau via Chi Sau challenge, for 1 hr 30 min.

Not from what I heard. What does it mean to "issue a Gong Sau" challenge, whether formally or informally? How would I go about issuing a "Gong Sau challenge"? When I've trained with people from other families, did I unknowingly issue "Gong Sau" challenges to them?

Fact Vince has over 23 yrs of experience in your families system(Kennteth Cheung).
Fact Alan Chow a 3rd Level Chum Kiu HFY student on & off 5yrs.

As far as I know that is true

Fact Alan repeatedly struck Vince to the face and knocked him down. Fact Vince pushed Alan up against the couch and then got kicked.

Here's where things get a little hairier. I assume you didn't hear about the circumstances by which Alan struck Vince in the face? I further assume that while you heard a lot about what Alan alledgely did to Vince, you heard scant little about what Vince did to Alan? We can argue here till we're blue in the face, but the fact is neither of us were there, so what does it prove?

Fact Alan's experience lead him to believe that Vince was lacking in centerline theories and concepts which made chi sauing with him rather easy.

Alan is certainly entitled to his opinions of Vince's skill level. Good for him if he thought he did well.

I also understand that Vincent was also respectful throughout the Gong Sau, and gave due credit to Grandmaster Gee – speaking very highly of him. He also told Alan that his Chi Sau was very good.

Vince is a super nice guy, no argument there.

In the exchange that took place only one group might feel the need to come back and "spin" the truth for whatever reason, that group is clearly not here.

LOL, there are numerous reasons why various people might want to spin different stories, as there are numerous reasons why various people might want to defend such stories. All I'm saying is that everyone view the stories with an open mind, and that heresay isn't necessarily as accurate as 1st hand accounts.

Good luck in your search for knowledge.,

Why thank you.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,

You may want to ask Vince before you set off down that path he may have some time saving advice about the perils of that path. LOL

I talk to Vince all the time. He does have a lot of experience and valuable insight. But thanks for the advice just the same ;)


Sure we understand this what I and other HFY members try to point out to you and others on this topic is you go to class or train and you are left with questions, in Hung Fa Yi we go to class and train and we are met with answers.

Can it be because you don't ask enough questions? ;)

Plain and simple Vince had questions too now he has more answers.

He certainly does. ;)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Op108wc]

Let the danger be in commom and the risk mutual, so that one has to learn know how to ask -- "GONG SAO".



FACT

During the first exchange, Alan struck Vincent in the face 3 times, knocking him down within the first five seconds. Alan noticed that Vincent was dazed, with his ears ringing from the strikes.


FACT

Alan would like to give all due credit to Grandmaster Gee for his superb teaching skill and helping him through the Hung Fa Yi system. Alan (admitted to being a bit rusty over the past two years) has conveyed to us that when the Hung Fa Yi system is applied correctly, it is completely flawless.

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Op108wc,

Unless I hear it from Alan, Vince, or the mutual friend, it's all hearsay. But of course, you are free to believe whatever story you were told. :)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

Not from what I heard. What does it mean to "issue a Gong Sau" challenge, whether formally or informally? How would I go about issuing a "Gong Sau challenge"? When I've trained with people from other families, did I unknowingly issue "Gong Sau" challenges to them? You just admit you don't understand Gung Fu etiquette but yet you persist in argueing with those that do.The people directly involved have not gone on the record recounting what happened. There has been no independent 3rd party verification of any version of the story. What makes you think Alan is not on the record again just because you don't visibly see it hear what makes you think we don't already have that information. Alan you came over here like you are all knowing and all seeing yet you don't even know if Vince has had contact with anyone on this forum now do you. Good for you. No one is calling anyone a liar. I simply pointed out that second-hand stories are perhaps not as accurate as first-hand accounts. Do you disagree with that? You have to prove the accounts on this page are second hand first becaue you don't know the source and 2 if they are from Alan then you used the word untruth to me that means lie.
The real spin is this had things transpired any way other than what is described here there is NO DOUBT there would have been some type of buzz on the internet somewhere since that did not happen lets use that as your third party and say that their silence to HFY members tells us everything we will ever need to know.

[Cang Long]

Can it be because you don't ask enough questions? Could it be Kenneth Cheung doesn't have enough answers.:)

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,

What makes you think Alan is not on the record again just because you don't visibly see it hear what makes you think we don't already have that information.

It's simple Tony. All these claims are made in public. The only thing that isn't public so far are Alan's and Vince's first-hand accounts. Now you can say whatever you want behind closed doors, but anything you say in public will be subject to questioning. And so far it's just hearsay.

Alan you came over here like you are all knowing and all seeing

Nice straw man. Where did I claim to be all knowing or all seeing? I believe I specifically suggested everyone to view the stories with an open mind and not to necessarily take my word for it.

yet you don't even know if Vince has had contact with anyone on this forum now do you.

Actually, I do :)

You have to prove the accounts on this page are second hand first becaue you don't know the source and 2 if they are from Alan then you used the word untruth to me that means lie.

It's real simple Tony. The people talking about the incident on this thread, you, James, Op108wc, Alex, and myself, none of us were there. Therefore it's all second hand. To anyone else reading the forum, the descriptions of the events provided in this thread are not from anyone who actually witnessed the incident. I fail to see why you're getting so worked up over me pointing this simple fact out.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,

Could it be Kenneth Cheung doesn't have enough answers.:)

Touche. :) I suppose I left myself open for that one. In any case, I will continue to ask questions and you can continue to be satisfied with the answers you are given. ;)

happy training,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

Alan,
Lets go back to your original post to see where we are now. I believe the issue is settled between them, so let's leave it at that, shall we? So either you want Alan and Vince to be the only ones to post on this thread and you dislike the fact that anyone besides them would even consider discussing the issue or you object to the event being used as a learning experience advanced by the means of this thread. In any event you are wrong because Alan has given his account, you haven't proven anyone has stated a mistruth nor have you any idea of how we as individuals (or anyone that comes to this website)receive information so as that anyone would need your comments or suggestions to take anything with a grain of salt. Again you need to understand YI, Mo Duk, & Time Space and Energy to better understand what goes on here untill you accomplish that you will just continue to waste time with post that stress much ado about nothing.Touche I suppose I left myself open for that one. In any case, I will continue to ask questions and you can continue to be satisfied with the answers you are given. Here is a hint for you Alan, take it with a grain of salt or however you choose but use it to your advantage if you can. Learn how to validate the answers and you will move on to the next question without hesitation of wondering if the last question has truly been answered.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

All these claims are made in public. The only thing that isn't public so far are Alan's and Vince's first-hand accounts. I have heard from Alan about the hole thing not only once in private but in a group twice and each time his experience conveyed was the same.Now you can say whatever you want behind closed doors, but anything you say in public will be subject to questioning. Any who are you to do more then question, you try to discredit the account with out a any physical claims of the account. All you say is its not posted by Alan so you don't buy it? Good for you, stay with in your allusions. I believe I specifically suggested everyone to view the stories with an open mind and not to necessarily take my word for it. Since you continue with this argument, it points out where you have an open mind and it makes me wounder how open it is? As for your word on it, what word? You have said nothing on the matter but argue the facts and reject the answers!

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Tony,


Lets go back to your original post to see where we are now.


Yes, let's

So either you want Alan and Vince to be the only ones to post on this thread and you dislike the fact that anyone besides them would even consider discussing the issue

No, strawman again. I'm just pointing out the discussion has heretofore revolved around 2nd hand accounts and hearsay.

In any event you are wrong because Alan has given his account,

And I can give you a different version of the story which conflicts with the one you were told, and claim that I heard it first hand. So what? To you, and everyone else, it would still be a second hand account. I heard the story from the "source" as well, and therefore, my version of the story is every bit as valid as yours....

Do you buy it? See how that works? ;)

I say it again. Unless Alan or Vince goes on the record with their accounts, everything up to now is hearsay.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi James,

I have heard from Alan about the hole thing not only once in private but in a group twice and each time his experience conveyed was the same.

And I'm hearing it from you, so it's still second hand hearsay. I can recount a different story I heard from Vince, and a 3rd party, but it would still be hearsay.

Any who are you to do more then question, you try to discredit the account with out a any physical claims of the account.

I figured I have the same grounds as someone who is reinforcing another version of the account, also without any physical claims ;)

All you say is its not posted by Alan so you don't buy it?

All I'm saying is I'd prefer hearing it first hand rather than second hand. Is that so bad?

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

And I can give you a different version of the story which conflicts with the one you were told, and claim that I heard it first hand. The word formal means what to you?All I'm saying is I'd prefer What you fail to comprhend is you are the only one here tha cares about what you prefer.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

We have no reason to lie about anything so if you would like to point out who in particular you believe to be propogating these untruths please do so if not your generalizations should be directed at Vince then find the 3rd party individual to satify your curiousity because what is posted here are verifiable facts. FactDuring the first exchange, Alan struck Vincent in the face 3 times, knocking him down within the first five seconds. Alan noticed that Vincent was dazed, with his ears ringing from the strikes. FactAlan would like to give all due credit to Grandmaster Gee for his superb teaching skill and helping him through the Hung Fa Yi system. Alan (admitted to being a bit rusty over the past two years) has conveyed to us that when the Hung Fa Yi system is applied correctly, it is completely flawless. Fact is, in gung fu tradition any challenge on an individual regardless of it being a chi sau or gong sau match, is not a challenge on one mans skill but a challenge on a families name but their histories honor. So when people from another family approach HFY and ask to test its skill it is not taken "with a grain of salt" but as a direct challenge to the family, anything after that is considered an accommodation (hence the hour and a half of chi sau between allen and vince).
One of these days they are going to challenge the wrong person and run into someone who isn't going to be as "accomodating" as Allen or Daniel.;) ;) ;) ;) ;) :rolleyes:

[Zhuge Liang]

LOL, thanks for the stimulating conversation guys.

"Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us." - Thomas Jerfferson

;););)

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

LOL, thanks for the stimulating conversation guys. Wish I could say the same, Take care Alan.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

:D LOL Im glad you are stimulated by the conversation, as I am stimulated by your relentless arument with out any substance!
Is that the reason you keep winking at me?:confused:
Thomas Jefferson? He never said that to me so I cant take your word on the matter!:rolleyes:

[Hungman]

Happy Birthday To Alan Chow aka GongSauGoneWild!


Pete

[William E]

Happy birthday Mr. Chow. I hope to see you at the kwoon again one of these days.

William E.

[sauchi]

Hey Everybody,

Happy B-Day to Alan Chow.

Hi Zhuge Liang. As for the “FACTs” James pointed out in an earlier post -


Fact October 9th, 2004, an informal Gong Sau was issued
Fact The agreement was to begin the Gong Sau via Chi Sau challenge, for 1 hr 30 min.
Fact Vince has over 23 yrs of experience in your families system (Kennteth Cheung).
Fact Alan Chow a 3rd Level Chum Kiu HFY student on & off 5yrs.
Fact Alan repeatedly struck Vince to the face and knocked him down.
Fact Vince pushed Alan up against the couch and then got kicked.
Fact Alan's experience lead him to believe that Vince was lacking in centerline theories and concepts which made chi sauing with him rather easy.

I can support the comments that he had made. After Alan and Vincent had met and touched hands, Alan had called me up to share his experience with me. Alan said a mutual friend of Vincent and Alan’s invited him there. There were Alan, Vincent and two other guys (from Ken Chung’s lineage).

At first Alan had told me that he was cautious because he heard that Vincent trained for over 20 years Wing Chun. But after rolling for a few minutes, Alan had noticed that at times Vincent would drop his hands and not cover his upper gate leaving himself open, then after Alan had proceeded to take advantage of Vincent’s open gate. Alan had told me that he had mentioned to Vincent that his gate was open.
Alan said that over the course of their exchange that he had struck Vincent over 40 times due to lack of gate coverage.

Alan had also mentioned that Vincent used the furniture too by trying to push him into them a number of times.

He did say that Vince was a nice guy but also very persistent to because when Alan would slap him he would come back for more.


Sauchi

[sauchi]

Hey SiHing

What do you think about what Alan and Daniel comments that some of Ken Chung’s students leave the upper gate center line open?

Do you think it is due to training practices or just tired arms?

Have any TWC practitioners touched hands with any of Ken’s Lineage and what have you heard of their out come?

Conversely - Zhuge Liang

Have you come across any of the other lineages and what have you observed about them?

Do both of you think that WC is WC which comes down to the individual or that styles/systems differ with training methods and effectiveness?

Sauchi

[Hungman]

All I'm saying is I'd prefer hearing it first hand rather than second hand. Is that so bad?

Regards,
Zhuge Liang


hm....

Where is Vince Lee?


http://www.wingchun.com/articles.shtml

The requested URL /bio/VinceLee.html was not found on this server.

[Zhuge Liang]

Woa, I didn't know this thread still had life! Well, hi anyways Sauchi.

With regards to the event, I heard the story from Vince and it was confirmed by the mutual friend. I didn't want to talk too much about it before because it would just be another second hand account and wouldn't really prove anything one way or another. But since some folks are treating hearsay as "fact" I guess it really doesn't matter. To clarify the point, every person who stated the "facts" where not there. The people who were actually there, Vince, Alan, and the mutual friend hasn't gone on record confirming or denying any of the "facts". They settled the matter among themselves, but they obviously haven't posted on this forum with the details.

But as long as we're being liberal with the "facts", let me toss in the "facts" from the other side.

Fact October 9th, 2004, an informal Gong Sau was issued
Fact The agreement was to begin the Gong Sau via Chi Sau challenge, for 1 hr 30 min.

false. The event was a very impromptu . Vince was over at his friend's house and they got to talking about Wing Chun. His friend says he knows someone studying HFY (Alan) and asked Vince if he would like to work out with him. Vince, being the good natured guy that he is, and always eager to work out with a pair of hands, said "sure." So the friend called Alan up, who showed up 45 minutes later. I'm not sure how long they worked out exactly, but it ended when it ended. There was not set time, no official challenge, nothing. As far as Vince and the friend was concerned, it was just a normal chisao workout, as you would see in any Wing Chun class. Alan evidently figured different.

Fact Vince has over 23 yrs of experience in your families system (Kennteth Cheung).

This part is true. And he's still very dedicated to the art.

Fact Alan Chow a 3rd Level Chum Kiu HFY student on & off 5yrs.

no problem with that. I'll take your word for it.

Fact Alan repeatedly struck Vince to the face and knocked him down.

Alan hit Vince in the face a few times, that is true, but it was after the fact every time. According to Vince (and confirmed by the friend) Alan and Vince would chi sao and Vince would stop short of hitting Alan (a chop stopping right in front of the neck, for example). Alan would thereafter proceed to hit Vince in the head after the short pause.

After a couple times of that, Vince asked Alan why he was doing that, and Alan replied that it was just the way he trained. After than, Vince decided not to give Alan the opportunity to take pot shots anymore by pinning him against the wall, the furniture, etc. Once Vince started doing that, there were no more hits to the head.

As for the knockdown, it wasn't techincally a knockdown. It was a sweep, and Vince acknowledged it was a good one.

Fact Vince pushed Alan up against the couch and then got kicked.

Vince pinning Alan against the couch was true, but the kick was only part true. Alan did attempted to sweep to Vince (again), but unsuccessfully, as Vince countered by raising his front leg and kicking Alan in the gut. Well, Vince actually stopped just short of kicking Alan, because as I've said before, he's a good natured guy.

Fact Alan's experience lead him to believe that Vince was lacking in centerline theories and concepts which made chi sauing with him rather easy.

As far as what Alan believes, I cannot speak to. Whether what Alan believes is actually fact however, is a different matter. I hesitate to suggest trying him out for yourself, because I do not speak for him, but I've never known him to be unwilling to engage in a friendly workout.

I can support the comments that he had made. After Alan and Vincent had met and touched hands, Alan had called me up to share his experience with me.

That's nice. And Vince told me a different story. So what does that prove?

Alan said a mutual friend of Vincent and Alan�s invited him there. There were Alan, Vincent and two other guys (from Ken Chung�s lineage).

Actually, there was only the 3. Alan and Vince were the only wing chun practioners. I don't know why Alan would tell you there were more, but if he could name the people who where there, it'd be fairly easy to confirm or deny it.

Alan said that over the course of their exchange that he had struck Vincent over 40 times due to lack of gate coverage.

Ha ha, no.

So there you have it. Heresay from me. Every bit as "valid" as James's version since neither of us where there and both of us claimed to hear it from the source. Neither of us can prove it. It's up to the readers to decide who to believe.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Zhuge Liang]

Hi Sauchi,


Conversely - Zhuge Liang

Have you come across any of the other lineages and what have you observed about them?


Actually, I've touch hands with quite a few students from different schools, including but not limited to Lo Man Kam's, Augustine Fong's, Gary Lam's, Chris Chan's, Leung Ting WT, Weng Chun, and TWC. I actually tried to work out with HFY people too, but wasn't able to convince anyone to have a friendly workout with me. Actually, that's not true. One person did agree to work out with me, but just before we were to meet, someone up the chain told him not to meet me, so he didn't.

But to answer your question, it's really not easy to say. You certainly don't want to draw conclusions about an entire lineage based on one practioner, so I can't speak to that. So I really don't think of it as my lineage vs their lineage. I treat it as that person and me training together to the benefit of both of us. And in that respect there was something to learn from every hand I touched. Some people liked fast hands, some people preferred fancy footwork, some people liked to stick, some didn't. There were people I had an easy time dealing with, and there were people that I had a tough time dealing with, but each occasion was an opportunity to learn. In my own opinion, Gary Lam's guys were probably the closest to my own school in terms of feel.


Do both of you think that WC is WC which comes down to the individual or that styles/systems differ with training methods and effectiveness?


The system is important, and the individual is important. Systems are different and people are different, so of course effectiveness is different. In fact, even the definition of effectiveness differs from person to person, group to group. All that really matters is that you, as an individual, make progress on your chosen path, and that you enjoy it.

Regards,
Zhuge Liang

[Cang Long]

hm....
Where is Vince Lee?


http://www.wingchun.com/articles.shtml

The requested URL /bio/VinceLee.html was not found on this server. The question is unanswered