Bong Lop Kui Sau

[William E]

We are in the midst of Kui Sau training here at the headquaters and I'd like to share some insight into what GM Gee has been teaching us. I've posted this in the public forum in order to try and get more people involved. Please contribute your experiences.

Bong/Lop Kui Sau - Progression #1

The Bong/Lop is the third level of understanding in Kui Sau training. Progression #1 is called centerline bong/lop ks. It starts from either the rolling or directly from Bin Mah. If started from rolling the person in Deui Ying or YJLYM stance transitions into Bin Mah by moving the footwork and performing a Lop Sau.

From this point on during this progression the footwork does not move and is performed stationary. The focus is on the elbow position, stance and rooting. The elbow must move to the Yin Line before being extended forward. The stance must not be too narrow or too wide. Your body must be able to absorb and also sense and react to your opponents energy.

Both people initially start off by rolling. The arms do not stick when they roll and the energy should be flowing and not hard at this point. Once you roll for 4 or 5 times then it may be time for you to perform a skill challenge. You can challenge your opponent when you feel they do not have the proper stucture or energy. For example, if I do not punch with my elbow in the proper position I can easily be opened up with a Biu Sau challenge by my opponent. Another challenge may be when my opponent tries to force in with their Bong Sau. If I have my striking hand in the proper position I can easily berform a Chum Sau on this Bong and redirect it downward. The last skill challenge involves proper space and time coordination. When transitioning from high Ghan Sau to Bong Sau I can be challenged if by Bong is not in the right position or if I am too slow(or do not sense my opponentS transition).

I realize that this may be confusion to those outside of the HFY community. Please feel free to ask questions.

William E.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by William E

The Bong/Lop is the third level of understanding in Kui Sau training. Progression #1 is called centerline bong/lop ks. It starts from either the rolling or directly from Bin Mah. If started from rolling the person in Deui Ying or YJLYM stance transitions into Bin Mah by moving the footwork and performing a Lop Sau.

From this point on during this progression the footwork does not move and is performed stationary. The focus is on the elbow position, stance and rooting. The elbow must move to the Yin Line before being extended forward. The stance must not be too narrow or too wide. Your body must be able to absorb and also sense and react to your opponents energy.

William- Would both people in the orientation be considered Deui Ying? I would think so since both people are in bin amh neither person has an advantage (unless of course there is a succesfull challenge as discussed below). As far as the general stance is concerned, I gather from your statement that we are looking for an optimal combination of stability and mobility as both the "puncher" and the "bonger".

Both people initially start off by rolling. The arms do not stick when they roll and the energy should be flowing and not hard at this point.

By this do you mean there no not constant contact at the bridge?

Once you roll for 4 or 5 times then it may be time for you to perform a skill challenge. You can challenge your opponent when you feel they do not have the proper structure or energy. For example, if I do not punch with my elbow in the proper position I can easily be opened up with a Biu Sau challenge by my opponent. Another challenge may be when my opponent tries to force in with their Bong Sau. If I have my striking hand in the proper position I can easily berform a Chum Sau on this Bong and redirect it downward. The last skill challenge involves proper space and time coordination. When transitioning from high Ghan Sau to Bong Sau I can be challenged if my Bong is not in the right position or if I am too slow(or do not sense my opponents transition).

So, the challenges are done for specific reasons and under certain conditions.

I realize that this may be confusion to those outside of the HFY community. Please feel free to ask questions.

I think there may be a few questions within the HFY community on this topic. So please, everyone, post questions and share experiences.

One thing I experience during BLKS is a difficulty maintaining my elbow on the yin line while being the puncher guy. I find that my stance narrows too much some times causing a distortion in my lines. Anyway, this is what I am currently working on with BLKS.

JK

[William E]

JK,

Yes, if both people are in Bin Mah they are considered in Deui Ying.

In the first progression of BLKS we are not concerned with mobility or footwork but on the correct stance and elbow position. The Wau Sau is kept back and does not make contact during the Bong Sau.

(If I am punching with my right hand)
When I transition from Bong into Gan (punch) my right hand disengages from my opponent which allows we to move the elbow to the yin line before extending. To me, this movement of the elbow tucking in is on of the keys in KS.

The challenges are performed when I notice a weakness in my opponents structure. If their structure is correct, the challenge would be force-on-force and typically looks like both people struggling. When the time is right to challenge and you can sense that they do not have their elbow in or their Bong is collapsed then you should be able to destroy your opponents structure easily and with little stuggle.

You are correct about the narrow stance. It also goes for one that is too wide. This progression allows you to work with your partner to find the optimal body structure that will allow you to absorb and sense your opponents energy. Don't worry about using too much energy at this point but concentrate on body structure.

I'm sure there are other schools that are currently training KS. What are your thoughts?

William E.

[Sihing68]

From my experience.....

There are four progressions to Kiu Sau.
(1) Fau Kiu KS
(2) Deui Ying KS
(3) Bong Lop KS
(4) Kwun Sau KS

When concentrating on Bong Lop Kiu Sau, there are 3 progressions.

We always start in the Deui Ying KS posture. After rolling 3-4 times, the partner with the inside KS hands applies the Lop sau/punch (switching to Bin Mah footwork) and the partner with the outside KS hands counters with the Bong sau (switching to Bin Mah footwork). The Bin Mah footwork must match up with one another or a distortion is already created.

In the first progression, the two-line Bong Lop KS, we concentrate on our hands/arms on the yin line (punch) and bong structure. Here in the two-line Bong Lop KS, the wu sau is on the elbow position. In the second progression, in the centerline Bong Lop KS, the proper punch and bong structure again is stress and the striking point on the wu sao (Bong structure hand) is now emphasize. In the third progression, the JY Bong Lop KS emphasize the use of the five lines.

Each progression, there are challenges as stated by William/JK above.

Just my $.02

[DavidE]

Sihing68 says ...

"In the first progression, the two-line Bong Lop KS, we concentrate on our hands/arms on the yin line (punch) and bong structure. Here in the two-line Bong Lop KS, the wu sau is on the elbow position. In the second progression, in the centerline Bong Lop KS, the proper punch and bong structure again is stress and the striking point on the wu sao (Bong structure hand) is now emphasize. In the third progression, the JY Bong Lop KS emphasize the use of the five lines.

Just my $.02"

Excellent $.02 !!

I'm finding that I recognize sensitivity on the bridge and spacial awareness (footwork) more quickly since training the first and second progression of BLKS.

In the third progression I've had an issue with the footwork. Are there exercises to isolate the footwork? Or is learning through application the best bet?

Ok since you asked, I have a few questions ....

"When I transition from Bong into Gan (punch) my right .... " - William

Why is the "punch" refered to as Gan?

"This progression [the first of BLKS] allows you to work with your partner to find the optimal body structure that will allow you to absorb and sense your opponents energy. Don't worry about using too much energy at this point but concentrate on body structure." - William

Would the energy refered to here be "just enough to let your partner know your there"? As opposed to "pushing" each other around?

"Both people initially start off by rolling. The arms do not stick when they roll and the energy should be flowing and not hard at this point." - William

"By this do you mean there no not constant contact at the bridge? - JK"

Would it be correct to say, the first progression is focussed on the "Body Mechanics". Hence, the sticking energy is not addressed at this point in time?

"I think there may be a few questions within the HFY community on this topic. So please, everyone, post questions and share experiences." - JK

Word !

-David

[William E]

David,

I would agree that the BLKS is tricky once the moving footwork gets involved and hopefully by that time you've trained your first progression well and have a strong structure. It get's interesting when you perform the thrid progression with people of different heights.

Sorry about the confusion regarding punch vs. gaan sau. My nd indeed it is a punch. After I Lop, I disengage the other arm bringing my elbow to the yin line before extending.

With all exercises that we do BLKS needs to be performed with a sense of forward energy. The lack of forward energy is a trigger to challenge for me. The energy should be crispy and with a sense of on and off.

The first progression of BLKS deals mainly with the elbow position and structure.

Hope this helps.

William E.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by William E

With all exercises that we do BLKS needs to be performed with a sense of forward energy. The lack of forward energy is a trigger to challenge for me. The energy should be crispy and with a sense of on and off.

I think this is important.

Forward energy should always be present but remember the progression you are working on and keep in mind the skill level of the person you are working with. A lot of people tend to confuse "forward energy" with "bully, dominate, and win".

Originally posted by Sihing68

In the first progression, the two-line Bong Lop KS, we concentrate on our hands/arms on the yin line (punch) and bong structure. Here in the two-line Bong Lop KS, the wu sau is on the elbow position. In the second progression, in the centerline Bong Lop KS, the proper punch and bong structure again is stress and the striking point on the wu sao (Bong structure hand) is now emphasize. In the third progression, the JY Bong Lop KS emphasize the use of the five lines.

OK- here is my understanding:

First Progression- Basic yin line punch and bong structure

Second Progression- More refined structure with emphasis on wu sao striking point.

Third Progression- 5 lines (motion) maintaining structure with motion and energy.

Can any skill challenge be introduced in any of the three progressions?

JK

[Sihing68]

OK- here is my understanding:

First Progression- Basic yin line punch and bong structure

Second Progression- More refined structure with emphasis on wu sao striking point.

Third Progression- 5 lines (motion) maintaining structure with motion and energy.

Can any skill challenge be introduced in any of the three progressions?

JK
---------------------------


JK,
To my understanding, yes, there are skill challenges in each progression. In the first progression, the punch (elbow positioning) and the bong structure can be challenge. In the second progression, along with the challenges in the first progression, the wu sao striking point (positioning) can be challenge. While, in the third progression, along with the first two progression challenges, controlling of the lines with the bong/wu sao can be challenge. I hope this helps a little.

[Allen Kong]

To add my .02 (from my experience).......in all 3 progressions of the BLKS, without the proper footwork and proper facing, your body structure can and will be challenge, even if you have a solid hand/arm structure. So, body alignment (footwork) with your partner/opponent and hand/arm structure are both critical to maintain harmony.


Allen

[Savi]

Originally posted by Allen Kong
To add my .02 (from my experience).......in all 3 progressions of the BLKS, without the proper footwork and proper facing, your body structure can and will be challenge, even if you have a solid hand/arm structure. So, body alignment (footwork) with your partner/opponent and hand/arm structure are both critical to maintain harmony.


Allen
Sibaakgung,
If I am understanding you correctly, to be in harmony with time and space is to be unchallengeable, right? (Provided that our self identity has been realized, of course.)

Or would this statement be incorrect?

[DavidE]

Originally posted by hfysavi
Sibaakgung,
If I am understanding you correctly, to be in harmony with time and space is to be unchallengeable, right? (Provided that our self identity has been realized, of course.)

Or would this statement be incorrect?

Savi - I don't remember the exact quote but to paraphrase ... "To be succesfull, a technique has to be true to it's nature. To be true to it's nature, the technique must incorporate the correct time, space and energy." I think in this case the technique is the BLKS exercise.

My understanding is if your technique fails something was left out of the mix. Thus, not maintaining harmony and resulting in a challengeable situation.

-David

[William E]

Savi Wrote >>
Sibaakgung,

If I am understanding you correctly, to be in harmony with time and space is to be unchallengeable, right? (Provided that our self identity has been realized, of course.)

Or would this statement be incorrect?

I would like to add one additional comment here. The elements of Time, Space AND Energy are equally important. If I perform the technique in the right time and space but do not have any energy or typically forward energy then my structure can be challenged...

Just my 2 cents...

William E.

[Savi]

I definitely agree that to be in harmony is to be in balance with reality, which is (as we know of course!) comprised of Time Space and Energy. But in that instance, for the sake of categorization/identification purposes, would that be the Weng Kiu experience?

In BLKS, now that I have went through more of the Hau Chyun San Sau, my previous question about "Jeui Yeng = Weng Kiu" is a VERY surface-type question and I feel I should perhaps begin a new thread with it. I have much more ideas and thoughts that pertain to it from the past few days.

[Allen Kong]

Savi,

Yes, if you have time/space/energy, then, from my experience, you will be in weng kiu stage. Any type of disturbances of time/space/energy either by you or your oponent will bring you out of that stage and into san kiu/fau kiu stages. In reality, in training, I believe that you are in and out of those three stages, depending on experience.


Allen