SLT & CK Line

[Savi]

Hey Sifu Widener (and students), I attended the 04 Gathering and was intrigued by what Sifu Widener mentioned about the SLT Line and the Chum Kiu Line.

Could you please re-explain what they are and their function for me?

Thanks,
-Savi.

[Azwingchun]

Hey Savi, I am not always great at putting my ideas into words.....though I will break it down as well as I can. ;)

With a very simple explanation (this is how I prefer it anyway...LOL), SLT line would be the direct facing to your opponent. This would be the common use of the triangle principle. Though, this doesn't mean I have to be facing face to face with my opponent. But this is usually how the training begins for us. This allows for some basic training and understanding of body lines and areas. To better understand these areas we use our pak/da training cycle, this is what I showed at the Gathering (the engine that drives the fighting applications).

I can flank an opponent and be at their flank, either indoor or outdoor in reference to their weapons. This is kinda similar to the edge alignment idea, though as you and I showed the differences, there are a few. I believe the angle of the feet was the biggest. But in this position I am still capable of facing my opponent's coreline.......the coreline being that my centerline is cutting directly through my opponents center of mass.

The CK Line is that of an elongated triangle, this due to a slight shift in stance or possibly being in a right or left frontal stance. But always having full extension of our arms (in correlation to my attacker's coreline). This is possible due to the flanking position. Most often seen from moment of entering (if entering from the outside gate of the attacker's strike) or regaining our line if/or when it is lost.

Let's use bong sau/wu sau against a straight punch as the example. In a case that I am surpised or maybe just a very strong force or strike is coming at me. At this point I have to hide my center and get out of the line of attack. I may dissapate back at an angle, this to preserve my center, while creating a bridge with bong sau/wu sau. At this moment in time I am now using the CK Line to hold center. I am also presenting a forwardness at a 45 degree angle through my opponent's arm......creating a pressure towards his coreline. This allows my opponent to always feel my presence, even when I am doing something simple as a bong sau. In other words I am not just defending or getting rid of his force, I am presenting energy back towards his coreline. Creating a crowding feeling.

At this point my opponent has to start correcting, or changing his position to strike at me. If you can maintain this line, you are always one step ahead of your attacker, he will feel as if he is always chasing you (if this make sense?). Our main job is to now hold the flank or even better, possibly get behind. We say 'hide your center, while always attacking your opponent's center'.

I don't know if this is what you were looking for, but if I can give anymore examples please feel free to ask. :)

[Azwingchun]

I would like to add, just for clarification.....this doesn't mean that the CK Line is there just for bridging, this was just an example.

Once you are beyond the bridging point and have moved into a controling position, this refers to the point that I can touch my attacker's mass or form with a strike without over committing myself. At this point, just through basic shifting for power, you may end up in a CK line position. This coming from 2 of the 3 powers that are taught in CK, those being shifting (turning) and sinking. Again, I hope this makes some sense. :D

[Savi]

It does help, thank you.

The Chum Kiu Line, from your description, sounds like it is used as a receptive/redirective "tool". Is it used only when stronger energy is encountered? Is it used only at a bridging distance?

[Azwingchun]

The Chum Kiu Line, from your description, sounds like it is used as a receptive/redirective "tool". Is it used only when stronger energy is encountered? Is it used only at a bridging distance?

Yes and no..... though this is very common in the instances you mention. I look at these lines in motion, for example, if you took a photo of me entering and bridging with a bong sau wu sau, the snapshot is just that (receptive/redirective). Though, I don't look at it this way, I look at this as just a transition, as I do with every move in combat or Wing Chun....all the way to the final winning blow. We can change and often do, from a SLT line or CK line at any given moment in time, based on our opponent's action(s) or reaction(s). Reason being, if or when I turn or shift (for evasive movements, or to generate power, or even just to change my line or position, these lines will and can interchange.

Excuse my ramblings. :p

[Savi]

May I ask, what is the focus behind using the SLT Line vs the Chum Kiu Line? How do you teach when to use one or the other? Should one always try to achieve using a particular one? Is it determined by positioning before contact, or when contact is made - which would imply that energetics would dictate which line to use, right?

[Azwingchun]

May I ask, what is the focus behind using the SLT Line vs the Chum Kiu Line? How do you teach when to use one or the other?

In most cases they are just plains which you will and can travel at any given time, this can happen through basic shifting left to right, in between is the SLT line. So, though you may not end up in a SLT line in this case (while shifting left to right), it is a plain that will and needs to be traveled through in the process.

Of course depending on your distance from your attacker, the shapes and options with the CK Line may vary (meaning options of attacks or defense, or even simultaneouly attack/defend).

One example of the CK Line use with bong sau would be, I can't be facing my attacker in as SLT Line and use Bong Sau (safely-IMO). If I were standing directly in front of my attacker and he throws a straight jab (straight line attack of any nature), I cannot use a bong sau with out getting off the SLT line. I have to move my center off of the line of attack, because bong sau alone can't do it. I either have to step into a flanking position or dissapate into a flanking position with bong sau (could be tan or any other shape of choice). This allows me to have all my weapons present, and the attacker's now off of my line.

As far as the SLT Line, this doesn't always mean facing face to face with my opponent (in our school anyway). Just means that my form is sqaured up with my opponent's coreline. So, in other words, my center in line with my attacker's coreline (or half of mass). At any moment in time I may shift to intercept an attack or just shift to generate power, which obviously, puts me in the CK alignment.

To put it simply, there are many defense and attack situations that take advantage of the CK line. But the SLT Line and the CK line can/will also be traveled through (like doorways) just to generate power (basically speaking).

Should one always try to achieve using a particular one?

I would say this would depend on what you are trying to do. I honestly don't think I look at one as any more important than the other. They are just tools, this would be like asking if you think tan is more important than bong sau?!?!?!? I don't think I could personally answer this question myself.....they just are. I believe when we start putting so much thought into what exactly needs to be used for what, we start to make our Wing Chun a technique based system, opposed to a principle based art. Don't get me wrong, I know there are better angles and tools for certain attacks, but within each there are many, many tools that can be used......angles included.



Is it determined by positioning before contact, or when contact is made - which would imply that energetics would dictate which line to use, right?

I guess the easiest way to put it is, if I make contact with a punch at the chi sau range, I am in a CK Line, once this line is controlled I can then move into a striking range and at this point the lines can be interchanged. So, from the start of combat, or by what is thrown at you first.....then yes.

As strange as this may sound to some, I very seldom look at combat as a break by break, moment by moment snapshot of each attack and defense in a fight. I look at the whole as a continous cycle......in other words, from the very first move to the very last......it is just one big transition!

Enough of my ramblings again....hope this make some sense?!!?!?!?! ;)

[Armin]

Hello!

@ azwingchun:

hope this make some sense?!!?!?!?!
Well, yes, it does make sense. As far as I understood, to keep it short, Siu Nim Tao-line is facing the opponent, Chum Kiu-line is going to the side and/or coming in from the flank, right?

Honestly, I'm not too sure, if one should separate that in that way. When you go in from the side, you are facing your opponent frontally again - Siu Nim Tao-line?

To put it in other words: are there really (only) these two lines? If you take a look at the concepts of motherline/centerline (being a plane between me and the other guy) in combination with the six-gates-theory (being a plane in a 90° ankle to the other plane), than this will form a 3-dimensional space with nearly infinite lines.

If you stand right in front of your enemy, you have all this infinite possibilities to go in. If you stand sideways from your enemey, you have all this possibilities, too. So there's no difference. And as far as I understood, there shouldn't or better: there mustn't be a difference. An attacker shouldn't dictate my alignment or I would be in big trouble. Somehow this sounds like "my enemy goes into this position, I'll counter with that position" and "he uses this technique, I counter with that technique".

Don't get me wrong, your definition surely sounds logical. But IMHO it takes something into pieces, that maybe shoulnd't be separated from each other.


Greetings,

Armin.

[Azwingchun]

Well, yes, it does make sense. As far as I understood, to keep it short, Siu Nim Tao-line is facing the opponent, Chum Kiu-line is going to the side and/or coming in from the flank, right?

No, I can be in a CK Line or a SLT Line form the flank at any given time. Side doesn't dictate this line.

To put it in other words: are there really (only) these two lines?

No, as you mentioned there are many lines, there is the fighting center, the motherline, the coreline, the lines which break the 3 lines which draw the six gates, there are lines that draw out the triangles......and the list goes on.

If you stand right in front of your enemy, you have all this infinite possibilities to go in. If you stand sideways from your enemey, you have all this possibilities, too.

Correct, it possibilities are almost endles. ;)

So there's no difference.

Of course there is (in description), there is a different line of attack and defense, hiding my centerline....shifting off to a CK Line or back to generate power. But at the same time they are shared, they work within each other.

An attacker shouldn't dictate my alignment or I would be in big trouble. Somehow this sounds like "my enemy goes into this position, I'll counter with that position" and "he uses this technique, I counter with that technique".

Not in the sense that there are only a certain set of techniques possibly if my attacker does this or that. From each position there are many, many moves. But to say that Wing Chun in general isn't dicated by our attacker's move would be nonsense. This is why there is sensitivity training in all Wing Chun (as far as I am aware). The fight alone was dicated by the attacker or hopefully you wouldn't have been there in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with moving based on our attackers moves, hopefully as a Wing Chun practitioner you can get into a good position where you can then make the fight on your own terms. But let's not forget, the attacker is just that, an attacker and doesn't sit there waiting to be hit. He will move and you will have to counter defensively or offensively.


Don't get me wrong, your definition surely sounds logical. But IMHO it takes something into pieces, that maybe shoulnd't be separated from each other.

That would be perception in all respect to you. If you go back to my post, I mention how I don't look at things individually, I look at them as one huge transition. So to say I am breaking them up into pieces, isn't true in my teaching, they are lines that are dealt with and plains that are often traveled through.

Plus, let's not forget, Savi asked what the differences were between the two lines. I broke them down, so of course when reading, they appear to be 'just' pieces...but to us, they are the 'whole'.

Kinda like you mentioning the 6 gates, motherline/centerline. And we both know there are more lines than this, as mentioned above. They may be taught individually in a class setting, but they work together in as a whole. In a sense they are their own individual concept (or working part of the engine), but without that piece your well oiled machine wouldn't operate anymore (or at least properly). The same can be said for our SLT Line and CK Lines.....as well as our motherline, coreline etc. ;)

[Armin]

Hello!

@ Azwingchun:

Now it's clear and I agree.


Armin.

[Azwingchun]

:D