Suffering

[Browning]

In my humanities class we were discussing The Epic of Gilgamesh. While reading it, I found many interesting concepts of chan appearing. In Gilgamesh's journey for eternal life, he talks to the god Utnapishtim and asks him "how shall I find the life for which I am searching?"
In reply Utnapishtim tells him:
"There is no permanence. Do we build a house to stand for ever, do we seal a contract to hold for all time? Do brothers divide an inheritance to keep for ever, does the flood-time of rivers endure? It is only a nymph of the dragon-fly who sheds her larva and sees the sun in his glory. From the days of old there is no permanence. The sleeping and the dead, how alike they are, they are like a painted death. What is there between the master and the servant when both have fulfilled their doom? When the Anunnaki, the judges, come together they decree the fates of men. Life and death they allot but the day of death they do not disclose."

All things are temporary. In the end we all have the same fate, from the lowest person in society to the greatest of our leaders.

My second thought about Gilgamesh was about suffering. The root of suffering is desire, because Gilgamesh desired eternal life (something he could never attain) he suffered for many of his days. All human suffering stems from desire. In Eden when Eve took and ate of the "forbidden fruit" the first thing that the snake had to do was plant the desire in her heart or else she would not have done the sin.

I was wondering about desire though. If desire is the root of our suffering what about our desire to uplift ourselves. What about the "hellinic ideal" to desire to lift ourselves up to what is good and noble.
I was just wondering what your take was on all of this.
I do recommend reading The epic of Gilgamesh, I think you will find it very enlightening.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by Browning
I was wondering about desire though. If desire is the root of our suffering what about our desire to uplift ourselves. What about the "hellinic ideal" to desire to lift ourselves up to what is good and noble.


I think the concept of the self, good, and noble are what should be addressed.

If in reality there is no self, and good and noble are the same as bad and ignoble, then the root of the problem is your desire to achieve something that is not real.

JK

[Cang Long]

Good points JK
and if I may add just this then the root of the problem is your desire to achieve something that is not real. In previous threads and to my understanding this is known as attachment. Removal of attachment leads to the end of suffering. So no self, no attachment, no suffering you are left with the reality of Dao.

[Browning]

Thank you for your replies, they have led to a few more question/thoughts.

If attachment leads to suffering, is it something that should be eliminated, or is it one of those things that we should only be aware of. In my view, I see suffering to sometimes be good. What isn't burnt in a fire is only strengthened. Is there a healthy attachment, like setting goals that may or may not be met.

I was hoping that you could expand on your thoughts a little. Thanks

[Cang Long]

It should be eliminated, reason being we are trying to ultimately strip away every last thing that stands between us and reality (dao) suffering and the things that lead to suffering are just some of those things that prevent people from attaining their buddha nature and realizing the reality of dao.

[paddyjpm]

I agree that suffering is rooted in desire. I also would describe it as emotional attachment or willfulness to attempt to control reality. People suffer becasue they are chained by some emotional attachment to a idea or feeling. Or perhaps that feel that reality should be as they see it. It clouds their objective ability to remove themselves from their suffering to see past this illusion. Therefore suffering can be viewed as self induced and self fulfilling.

Jim

[Cang Long]

Therefore suffering can be viewed as self induced and self fulfilling. Welcome to the board Jim and your statement conveys alot of truth.

[paddyjpm]

I think in one respect one could argue that suffering can have a positive effect. The test of fire as one put it. Pain and suffering take us through a dark and hurtful time but we always emerge happier, stronger and healther at least in terms of spirit and minds. The true nature is, I think, that when we are deep in the bowels of this suffering, we tend to figure the nature of reality which is change. There is only a state of becoming and to know suffering is to know joy in a very real sense. The essence of this arguement is duality is an illusion and because we often fall victim to this suffering can result. They are therefore one in the same. Use the cycle of the tree as a comparision. In the spring it is full of new growth and vital with apparent life. In the fall it retreats to apparent barreness. But as we all know there is growth and regeneration going on from within. With this in mind, retreat, suffering, pain is transitional and is always followed by its opposite. Knowing that this is the true nature then I think we can find comfort in this fact that can often help us through our time of suffering. So in this sense yes, suffering can be positive as it stimulates continued growth and provides a great touchstone for reality.

[JK Walz]

Originally posted by paddyjpm
I think in one respect one could argue that suffering can have a positive effect. The test of fire as one put it. Pain and suffering take us through a dark and hurtful time but we always emerge happier, stronger and healther at least in terms of spirit and minds. The true nature is, I think, that when we are deep in the bowels of this suffering, we tend to figure the nature of reality which is change. There is only a state of becoming and to know suffering is to know joy in a very real sense. The essence of this arguement is duality is an illusion and because we often fall victim to this suffering can result. They are therefore one in the same. Use the cycle of the tree as a comparision. In the spring it is full of new growth and vital with apparent life. In the fall it retreats to apparent barreness. But as we all know there is growth and regeneration going on from within. With this in mind, retreat, suffering, pain is transitional and is always followed by its opposite. Knowing that this is the true nature then I think we can find comfort in this fact that can often help us through our time of suffering. So in this sense yes, suffering can be positive as it stimulates continued growth and provides a great touchstone for reality.

I think in some aspects you are correct. Suffering can aid a person in identifying what is real and what is not. We can also try to find solace in the fact that over time suffering can lesson and might even be forgotten eventually.

I would be careful in assuming that we always emerge stronger and happier. There are many millions of people suffering in the word today that will never know peace and happiness. There are also many many people in the world who simply drink their troubles away everyday and who will eventually die never knowing the true cause of their suffering. I suppose a lot of people can deal indefinitely with being caught “on the wheel” of suffering/reprieve/suffering/reprieve. Most people muddle through their lives never knowing any better!

The salvation comes when the underlying cause of this suffering is identified. Yes, it is an illusion of sorts, but simply realizing it is an illusion is not enough. We need to make determined changes in our lives to end the suffering and to live a happier existence. I think this is when suffering can really have a “positive” effect. If you suffer enough it just might force you to open your eyes and say that there must be a way out if this. Once you ask that question you might be lucky enough to look for the solution and find it.

JK