Accidentally Deleted Thread

[JK Walz]

Due to an administrative error the thread entitled "...Latest Garbage of KFO..." has been accidentally deleted.

An attempt was made to move the thread from the HFY forum to the General Discussion forum when the deletion occurred. Unfortunately once a thread is deleted it is permanent.

If anyone has a cached version of the thread please forward it to me via email. If anyone has a printed version please call me at 602-574-1234 and I will give you a number to fax it to.

If I am able to get a copy of the thread I will re-post the entire past content as a single message in a new thread.

I sincerely apologize to everyone who spent a lot of time and made great effort to participate in the discussion and I certainly encourage all participants, especially our new members, to continue to be active in the forum.

JK

[Cang Long]

Terence,
I have another question for you if you are still following this forum.

[t_niehoff]

Yes?

[Cang Long]

Terence,
You are such a proponent of talking the talk and walking the walk how is that your sifu Robert Chu can hold himself up as an expert on the art of Gua Lo Wing Chun when in fact when Master Meng went to research Gua Lo from Robert for the Ving Tsun Museum Master Meng said Robert had to read from his own hand written notes to relay the information and that the money which amounted to appox. $100/hr for 10/hrs was not well spent. How can it be that Robert is always at odds with what you post online but you never call him on this but you do teachers or Master you don't know or dislike?

[t_niehoff]

cnaglong wrote:

"You are such a proponent of talking the talk and walking the walk how is that your sifu Robert Chu can hold himself up as an expert on the art of Gua Lo Wing Chun when in fact when Master Meng went to research Gua Lo from Robert for the Ving Tsun Museum Master Meng said Robert had to read from his own hand written notes to relay the information and that the money which amounted to appox. $100/hr for 10/hrs was not well spent."

So your question really amounts to a b***h about Robert Chu?

Look -- I don't want to get involved in interpreting what went on between Robert and Benny because, for one thing, I wasn't there (and neither were you). As I said to Benny in this thread before it was "deleted", if he is unhappy with his time with Robert, that's between him and Robert. I've found the time I've spent with Robert very useful and productive. Different strokes for different folks.

In any event, one thing that Robert does as a responsible teacher, and especially when dealing with long-distance learners who do not have the time to fully address a subject, is to make use of lesson plans and notes to ensure all the major points are addressed. Do you object to that?

"How can it be that Robert is always at odds with what you post online but you never call him on this but you do teachers or Master you don't know or dislike?"

I don't know what you mean -- I have my opinions, Robert has his, sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't. The point I had been making on this thread was that he doesn't control my actions, my thoughts, my opinions, or anything else. The only thing I "call" are claims not persons; if a claim is made all I want is to see the proof. If someone claims to have a "better" training method, then I want to see the results. If someone makes historical claims then I want to hear how they arrived at that conclusion so that I can evaluate it for myself.

Regards,

Terence

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Master Meng went to research Gua Lo from Robert for the Ving Tsun Museum Master Meng said Robert had to read from his own hand written notes to relay the information and that the money which amounted to appox. $100/hr for 10/hrs was not well spent.


Originally posted by Robert Chu

Martial arts is a tool for enlightment, it's not all about making dollars.


It isn't always easy to hear Robert Chu with fresh ears.

[Ricksta]

Did you guys check out how much Robert Chu is charging for his seminar?

Day of the Seminar:
1 Day $135
2 Days $250

Pre-reregistered Guests (Before January 15 2005)
1 Day $100
2 Day $200
Group Rate
2 Days for 5 people $800


But you guys have to remember, It's not about making money :)
The fee is for enlightenment!

[t_niehoff]

Why do you object to Robert Chu charging seminar fees? Don't others in WCK charge seminar fees? Quite frankly, this seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black -- or does Garrett teach his seminars for free? ;)

Regards,

Terence

[Jonathan_AZ]

I don't understand. Those prices don't seem too unreasonable - 'depending on the content of the seminar'.
$800 for 5 people breaks down to $160 a person for the weekend. Quite a break from the $250 for a single person for the 2 days. Doesn't sound too bad, but these are just prices. There is no mention in Rickstas post as to what is being taught those 2 days or for how many hours the seminar is each day. I would think, if being objective to the fees, all the information should be provided?
(also, I say this knowing nothing of Robert Chu or what he teaches, just going by information provided about pricing)

Jonathan

[t_niehoff]

Jonathan,

Here is a copy of the seminar announcement FYI. Andreas Hoffman has hosted one of Robert's seminars in the past (as have I), so if you have any questions about whether they are "worth the money" or not, you might want to ask him his opinion.

Regards,

Terence

-------------

Hello

I am very proud to sponsor my Sifu, Robert Chu in his first San Diego seminar. The details are below and I would like to encourage anyone who can make it to San Diego to come.

Robert always puts on an incredible seminar and I feel we can all grow from experiencing his methods.

I am opening my school for those that cannot or do not want to stay in a hotel and some of my students have also offered to host guests and guide them around San Diego.

I have a special group rate listed below.

Robert Chu Wing Chun Seminar in San Diego California!
When: January 29th and 30th 2005
Location: Setting Sun Martial Arts
4993 Niagara Ave Ste 109
San Diego Ca, 92107

Robert Chu will be teaching a two-day seminar covering the concepts and body structure methods of Wing Chun. Sifu Chu specializes in the combative application of Wing Chun and this promises to be an eye-opening seminar for anyone not familiar with his practical and direct methods. The two information packed days will cover the Wing Chun body structure, the conceptual model of fighting and application as well as Chi Sao and Gor Sau (Combative) methods from the forms and dummy. Robert Chu will also make himself available for a limited amount of private and small group lessons for those interested students. Sifu Chu will also be available for private and small group lessons. To find out more about Robert Chu, please visit www.chusaulei.com.

“Every time I attend a seminar taught by Sifu Chu, I find my understanding increases dramatically. Meeting him opened my eyes to the efficiency of the Wing Chun combative method.”

Robert Chu is an internationally respected teacher who has taught Wing Chun Seminars in Germany, England and across the United States. Sifu Chu began practicing the martial arts in the early 1970s. He specializes in combat application with a focus on the Yip Man Wing Chun Kuen system as taught by Hawkins Cheung and the Yuen Kay-San and Gulao Wing Chun Kuen systems as taught by Kwan Jong-Yuen. He is the co-author of Complete Wing Chun, (Charles E. Tuttle Co., Inc, 1998) and has written many articles for Inside Kung Fu, Martial Arts Legends, Inside Martial Arts, Martial Arts Combat Sports and other publications, in addition to his regular monthly column, Wandering Knight, which appears in Martial Arts Combat Sports magazine. He teaches privately in the Pasadena, California area.

Seminar Tuition:
Day of the Seminar:
1 Day $135
2 Days $250

Pre-reregistered Guests (Before January 15 2005)
1 Day $100
2 Day $200
Group Rate
2 Days for 5 people $800
Larger Groups please contact me!

Please send all checks or money orders to:
Dave McKinnon
10299 E Scripps Trail #108
San Diego Ca, 92131

For questions regarding the seminar, hotel locations or other details,
please contact me through www.wingchunfaat.com or call 619-246-2977.

Dave McKinnon


-------------------

[Jonathan_AZ]

Thank you for posting this information.
Without offence meant, I wasn't as interested in the details as much as curious why someone would comment on prices only, but leave no further information.

The comment I am refering to was:
"But you guys have to remember, It's not about making money
The fee is for enlightenment!"

This just seemed negative to me, with only listing prices and nothing about content. In my opinion, this site could better be used in a possitive manner instead of dredging up a passed argument from another website and rehashing it here as well?
Again, this is just an opinion.

I read an earlier post saying
"quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Cang Long
Master Meng went to research Gua Lo from Robert for the Ving Tsun Museum Master Meng said Robert had to read from his own hand written notes to relay the information and that the money which amounted to appox. $100/hr for 10/hrs was not well spent.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Robert Chu

Martial arts is a tool for enlightment, it's not all about making dollars.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It isn't always easy to hear Robert Chu with fresh ears."

I am guessing this was taken from another forum, since I don't remember reading this here? Maybe I am wrong and missed it.
I mean no disrespect toward any of the parties in this discussion.
I guess I just don't understand why this negative (opinion ony) energy would be brought back up again here (since I haven't seen any post by Rober Chu)?

Sincerely,
Jonathan

[Cang Long]

So your question really amounts to a b***h about Robert Chu? I don't know what you mean -- I have my opinions, Robert has his, sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't. The point I had been making on this thread was that he doesn't control my actions, my thoughts, my opinions, or anything else. The only thing I "call" are claims not persons; if a claim is made all I want is to see the proof. If someone claims to have a "better" training method, then I want to see the results. If someone makes historical claims then I want to hear how they arrived at that conclusion so that I can evaluate it for myself. Terence,
b***h sincere question tomato/tomato my questions were more about you than Robert Chu. Your use of other people to measure what Robert would charge for a seminar is misleading because other professional martial artist charging money to educate only makes sense but Robert like Op108wc pointed out Robert clearly states Martial arts is a tool for enlightenment, it's not all about making dollars, having the most followers, or having a martial arts collection to develop a market niche. So either he believes his own words or not but either way he appears to be a hypocrite, he could easily do a seminar for Dave at no cost. So how is this about you because it's pretty cut & dry to most but you will always have a different view but only when posting about Robert I've noticed. You always want to hold other people accoutable just go back and read your old post but even when something as obvious as this would at the least be considered self conflicting here you are once again to provide an excuse and not wanting to hold Robert accountable for his words.

[t_niehoff]

Jonathan,

I'm with you -- I don't see the point to the whole thing.

-----------------

Canglong wrote:

"b***h sincere question tomato/tomato my questions were more about you than Robert Chu. Your use of other people to measure what Robert would charge for a seminar is misleading because other professional martial artist charging money to educate only makes sense . . ."

I'm glad we agree that it is permissible for someone to charge fees for their teaching.

"but Robert like Op108wc pointed out Robert clearly states

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Martial arts is a tool for enlightenment, it's not all about making dollars, having the most followers, or having a martial arts collection to develop a market niche.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"So either he believes his own words or not but either way he appears to be a hypocrite,"

Your question appears to be for me to interpret for you Robert's meaning. Now, I'm not speaking for Robert, merely giving you my interpretation of what he said -- OK? My understanding is that Robert sees the main objective of WCK to be for the individual practitioner to become "enlightened", not in the strict Zen sense of the word, but within the realm of our (WCK) fighting method, that is, so that each practitioner develops *his own individual expression of WCK*. That achievement is not judged by how many followers one has, or how much money one makes, etc. but by their individual performance level. Along the same lines, a teacher is measured by how well he assists his students in that attainment (not by "material" attainments).

"he could easily do a seminar for Dave at no cost."

Robert isn't forcing anyone to go to his seminar; interested parties will weigh the cost versus the benefits. I don't think it is outlandish for someone to want compensation for giving you their time and instruction. You seem to be confusing the issue Robert was addressing (that I explained above) and the notion of compensation. For example, a physician will point out that his first priority is the health of his patients (as opposed to making money or building a large practice, etc.) but that doesn't mean he still won't charge his patients a fee for his services.

"So how is this about you because it's pretty cut & dry to most but you will always have a different view but only when posting about Robert I've noticed. You always want to hold other people accoutable just go back and read your old post but even when something as obvious as this would at the least be considered self conflicting here you are once again to provide an excuse and not wanting to hold Robert accountable for his words."

I'll give you that Robert and I share certain viewpoints, which is part of what attracted me to his teaching style in the first place. His focus is results (increasing performance), as is mine -- so we're on the same track. Nevertheless, we disagree on some issues and I'll voice my disagreement both to him and openly (because if I won't say it publically, I won't say it privately). There are other persons that share our focus on results and who aren't associated in any way with Robert -- Ernie on KFO, for example (a Gary Lam student). And I don't agree with him on everything either. As I said before, my main interest is results. If someone makes a claim, all I want to see is the result -- including with Robert or anyone else.

Regards,

Terence

[Ricksta]

(This just seemed negative to me, with only listing prices and nothing about content. In my opinion, this site could better be used in a possitive manner instead of dredging up a passed argument from another website and rehashing it here as well?)


Hold your horses Jonathan!!! I was just refering to a comment Robert Chu and his people was saying. When they say that other MA are a marketing sceme, then it's ok? I'm not being negative :) I'm just giving my honest opinion. They always say that money shouldnt be a factor in teaching.... I say if you preach it, then you should live by it...... It's my opinion though



Rick

[t_niehoff]

Ricksta wrote:

Hold your horses Jonathan!!! I was just refering to a comment Robert Chu and his people was saying.

**Who the hell are "his people"? What makes them "his people"? Where have I or any of Robert's students ever said that "other MAs are a marketing scheme"?

When they say that other MA are a marketing sceme, then it's ok? I'm not being negative I'm just giving my honest opinion.

**You can give your opinion, but your facts are wrong.

They always say that money shouldnt be a factor in teaching.... I say if you preach it, then you should live by it...... It's my opinion though

**Why do you keep using "they" like we're some homogenous group? Robert made his comment that I explained above -- that the focus of MAs shouldn't be on making money. You can agree or disagree with that. But the fact remains that one can make money and still not have it be the focus or main objective of what one does (they're not inconsistent).

Regards,

Terence

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
So either he believes his own words or not but either way he appears to be a hypocrite, he could easily do a seminar for Dave at no cost. So how is this about you because it's pretty cut & dry to most but you will always have a different view


Robert Chu's vision not purely a philosophy. IMO, it is learning to treat himself better, so that he can help to build an enlightened society. In that process, Benny Meng paid him $1,000 per lesson, self-respect is very important and it is wonderful, absolutely excellent.

[Ricksta]

But the fact remains that one can make money and still not have it be the focus or main objective of what one does


Ohhhh!! now it's ok to make money! I see :)

[Cang Long]

Robert isn't forcing anyone to go to his seminar; interested parties will weigh the cost versus the benefits. I don't think it is outlandish for someone to want compensation for giving you their time and instruction. Terence,
You are practically making my point if we agree here then sure Robert may know some whose focus is money but his statement is a blanket indictment of professional martial artist all good men and women around the world that he doesn't even know. So it is once again Roberts own words that are focused on a negative minority that encapsulated the majority with those words plus his own actions of charging Master Meng as a representative of the Museum when several people have shared information with the Museum for free and seem to be expressing what you actually say Robert Chu had in mind yet he was not one of those people. As for doctors and lawyers we all know they too do pro bono (sp) work for free regularly.
Secondly are you positive you have not used the term marketing scheme in a derogatory manner on KFO.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
So it is once again Roberts own words that are focused on a negative minority that encapsulated the majority with those words plus his own actions of charging Master Meng as a representative of the Museum when several people have shared information with the Museum for free and seem to be expressing what you actually say Robert Chu had in mind yet he was not one of those people.


This is just like an old saying: If you do not know another's taste, you do not know how to please him.

[dave mckinnon]

Hello everyone

Let me introduce myself.
I am Sifu Dave McKinnon, I teach the Chu Sau Lei method of Wing Chun in San Diego. Please feel free to contact me at any time through my website. www.wingchunfaat.com

I will be hosting the Robert Chu seminar in San Diego. I hope you all will attend.

What has gone on between Sifu Meng and Sifu Chu is between them and in the past. I believe they made some sort of amends and even if there is still energy between my Sifu and yours, we should not add to it. They are both decent men and can resolve any issues between them when the time is right.

Regarding the content of the seminar, I have it set as the following pending Sifu Chu’s approval: The seminar will cover the Wing Chun body structure, the conceptual model of fighting and application as well as Chi Sao and Gor Sau (Combative) methods from the forms and dummy. I am currently working on handouts and workshop manuals and need to finish these before I finalize the itinerary. Each person who attends will receive a manual for the workshop.

Regarding cost, if you pre-register, the cost is about $12.50 an hour. This is more than reasonable for the material being presented.

********** Special invitation **********

Because Sifu Meng has been hospitable to me in the past and invited me as a guest to his workshops, I will make a similar offer.

I am inviting Sifu Meng and Sifu Lowenhagen (Spelling Sorry), to the seminar as my guests.

I will also extend an open invitation to each of you to attend and see for yourself.

I have a group rate that breaks down to $160 dollar per person. I will offer this price for individuals who are members of the Hung Fai Yi and Ving Tsun Museum families.

Please take the time and visit, I gurentee if people have a chance, they should go. Robert is one of those rare individuals who can often improve your application ability drastically in a short period of time. You won't get a specific historic lineage or super secret technique, just incredibly solid mechanics to increase power and efficiency.

Dave McKinnon

[Jonathan_AZ]

Rick,

You may have missed my point. What I was saying is, I never read anywhere on this forum any of them saying what you quoted 'them' saying. (and, like I state above, I could have missed the discussion). I was just looking for clarification. It was my guess that these quotes might have come from another forum. I was just looking for clarification why to bring it up here? (what was the relevance)

"I was just refering to a comment Robert Chu and his people was saying. When they say that other MA are a marketing sceme, then it's ok?"

I just never read anywhere here robert making these statements, including this discussion.
With that perspective, I wondered why it was being brought up here. Perhaps I have the wrong perspective and missed the discussion.
No hard feelings or harm meant :)

Jonathan

PS Terance, hehe, thanks, but I'm not taking any side, just disoriented :)

[t_niehoff]

Jonathan,

You're not alone in being disoriented!

--------

Canglong, Op108wc, Ricksta,

Robert's statement is not a "blanket indictment" of all professional martial artists just as it wouldn't be an indictment of all medical professionals to say that the goal of medicine is to provide the best care to the patient and not make money. But it is an indictment of those that put buidling an organization, making money, etc. *above* the needs of their students. Get it? Quite frankly, I think that anyone of modest intelligence can see this distinction. Now that it has been explained to you, do you agree with the sentiment?

Some of you seem "hung up" on Robert's use of the word "enlightened". Unfortunately, you fail to grasp that the word has a greater range of meaning and connotation than just the "Zen sense" (it might surprise you to learn that most people don't use the word in the Zen sense!). But since we're on the topic, don't you all agree that part of "enlightenment" is seeking the "truth" in our training and practice? If so, how do you determine what that "truth" is? Is the truth what other people tell you or what you experience and learn firsthand for yourself? Does it depend on results or not? If it depends on results, are you looking to results (increased fighting performance)?

Regards,

Terence

[duende]

Here's the truth I experienced firsthand...

On a visit to our old school during one of Robert's visits. We had the words "Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying" written on our lesson chalkboard. Later we see an article written about this subject with absolutely no credit given to the source of the knowledge. What's worse is that the article itself was way off target and based solely on the Chinese interpretation of the words, without the real knowledge behind them.

Nevertheless it was very disrespectful to do such a thing.

Terence I appreciate you wanting to stand up for your Sifu. But at this point sweeping his past under the rug by trying to marginalize the magnatude of his statements about professional martial artists won't do.




David,

Nice invitation, but for any of us to take it seriously you should first re-track your previous statements regarding "re-packaged Wing Chun"



That's the rub about being a professional martial artist. One's past can haunt you.

The martial arts community does not forget anything.

[t_niehoff]

Duende,

Sorry, but I don't know what article of Robert's you are referring to -- would you mind directing me to it (is it on Robert's website among the entirety of his published articles, for instance?).

It's not a matter of "standing up" for Robert but simply looking at the plain meaning of his words instead of reading something into them that wasn't intended. Let me ask you directly, do you think it is right for an instructor to put building an organization, making money, etc. *above* the needs of his students (their progress)? Yes or no. If your answer is no, then you agree with Robert's position. If your answer is yes, then I'd like to hear your reasons.

As far as your indignant attitude regarding phrases thrown like "re-packaged WCK" -- I find that ironic coming from someone whose lineage claims WCK other than HFY is "watered-down"! It might be useful to put aside all the emotional baggage.

Regards,

Terence

[dave mckinnon]

duende

Thanks for the post.

I pretty much stay off the lists now though I do occasionally post!

There is no negative energy between myself and anyone in your lineage family or school.

I am sorry you are still carrying feeling for things that went on over a year ago.

I have given up those past arguments.

Why not come to San Diego. I'll buy the tea and we can train and compare systems after the regular seminar.

Meeting Sifu Chu and myself and training with us in San Diego will close the divide between our two schools.

I will even talk to Sifu to see if he can spend a few private minutes with you to answer any questions you have. If you feel you need that.

Dave

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Sibakgung Rick,
How’s the weather up there in SF?
Here is what I see on this matter, When it is convenient to others they involve either the VTM with marketing or Robert and master Mengs issues. They are all good recipes for the same dish of WC even the bad lineages that exist aren't that bad, well?!. IMO the VTM does not market HFY they deliver WC to the communities around. Robert Chu may due this also but he doesn't voice his thoughts here. His voice is heard through his students. When his students make clams that aren’t entirely true or are direct stabs at another, it brings a heavy cloud with it. In the past, there has been a lot of bad blood between these two families, and it should come to a halt but will never really, EGOES and all.
I personally would love to go to the SD seminar to experience this modified WC. O, I mean traditional WC.:D But I will most likely not attend due to my trip to visit my family headquarters here shortly! Thanks for the invite and may be in the future time and space will unit all of us, as energetic as we are, in one room. GAUN SAU!!! jk :D

[dave mckinnon]

James

Thank you,

You are very welcome to attend the semianr and if you are ever in San Diego we can meet and train or go for tea!

Enjoy yourself

Dave

[t_niehoff]

JamesofHFY wrote:

Here is what I see on this matter, When it is convenient to others they involve either the VTM with marketing or Robert and master Mengs issues.

**James, as you may recall I was involved by Benny with his post to this forum -- this is not something I started. And, I indicated from the beginning that I didn't want to get involved in any "dispute" between Benny and Robert. The only thing that I did to get brought into this was post on KFO that someone was asking about Garrett on Bullshido and to suggest that someone (presumably a HFY rep) would want to respond. Period.

They are all good recipes for the same dish of WC even the bad lineages that exist aren't that bad, well?!. IMO the VTM does not market HFY they deliver WC to the communities around.

**You're entitled to that view. Others may not share it, however.

Robert Chu may due this also but he doesn't voice his thoughts here. His voice is heard through his students.

**Let's get this straight -- his voice is NOT heard through his students. When you hear my "voice", you hear my voice, my thoughts, and no one else's. If you don't like what I have to say, bring it to me because I'm responsible for it, not anyone else.

When his students make clams that aren’t entirely true or are direct stabs at another, it brings a heavy cloud with it.

**You need to accept the fact that Robert isn't responsible for what we, his students, do or say.

In the past, there has been a lot of bad blood between these two families, and it should come to a halt but will never really, EGOES and all.

**I agree that we need to put aside all the emotional baggage.

I personally would love to go to the SD seminar to experience this modified WC. O, I mean traditional WC.

**Terms like "modified" or "traditional" mean nothing to me as my focus is results. Doing something just because it has been done that way in the past doesn't make it good or good for you. Doing something just because it is new likewise doesn't make it good or good for you.

Regards,

Terence

[Ricksta]

You need to accept the fact that Robert isn't responsible for what we, his students, do or say. (Terence)

Hmmm...I guess your right. You are probably not too close to your sifu, so Robert will not give a hoot what you do I guess. I forgot you do not consider Robert Chu your sifu, more of a friend right? My Bad!!!


Wussup James! Weather? Com'on, SF gots D best weather :) Well atleast better food than AZ!!! J/K Y'alls gots some cool spots too. See you guys this week end!!!

[JamesHFYofAZ]

DaveMcKinnon, Thank you for your open invite, and maybe one of these days I can take you up on it!

Terence, Chill out! I mentioned nothing about you. I don't care why your here posting on the HFY thread as you voice the same opinion over and over again.
I didn't want to get involved in any "dispute" between Benny and Robert.
You don't act like it since its in almost every one of your posts. I am sure your views are important to you and you have the right to voice them regardless if you speak on politics or not.
They are all good recipes for the same dish of WC even the bad lineages that exist aren't that bad, well?!. IMO the VTM does not market HFY they deliver WC to the communities around.
Lets rephrase, All recipes are good some are great and one that can be the favorite but if one sees it as the best and is trying to prove it then that persons is are head strong and full of ego. Terence, I didn't refer to you or any one for that matter, this was just an opinion.

**Let's get this straight -- his voice is NOT heard through his students. When you hear my "voice", you hear my voice, my thoughts, and no one else's. If you don't like what I have to say, bring it to me because I'm responsible for it, not anyone else.
o.k. Your straight. But to me what your saying is that he has little control over his students. If I were to say something about Master Gee that was not oked to say, I would receive a call ASAP about it and then respectfully make a public apology for stepping out of line.
I'm glad you take responsibility for your actions and that’s good that you do but you do represent as a student of Roberts their for you hold some responsibilities to respect your Sifu, to respect the system, and to respect the ancestors of the systems past, or maybe you just do that when its to your convenience. It doesn’t really matter to me if you post at all about the politics of WC I just feel that it should be done with on our end and get in to some knowledge sharing instead of debating the past. I’m sure that its not done but I would like to end it now!
Done Unless…
:bazooka: you want to fire some more rounds!

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Why did that post in funky colors?

[dave mckinnon]

James

I love these liile smilies

Wake up :spanka:

Stop poking me :boxing:

Get off my lawn! :bazooka: in Texas maybe!

Anyway-

We are a very friendly open bunch down here that train hard and work hard on improving our skill following the Wing Chun Concept.

Has anyone passed my invitation on to Sifu Meng and Richard (won't butcher his last name again).

Dave

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Again, thanks dave for the offer, and maybe in the future I will be able to take you up on it! More then likly after the fist of the year! I do miss CA so I do look forward to the trips to the cost line.
All in all I'm sure that your open invite will be shared with them, Thx.

Ricksta- You don't even have Del Taco (the best). ;) Hehe! Look forward to the visit and dedicated training times, thx and see ya soon!
Peace out!

[t_niehoff]

James,

You wrote:

But to me what your saying is that he has little control over his students. If I were to say something about Master Gee that was not oked to say, I would receive a call ASAP about it and then respectfully make a public apology for stepping out of line.

**As an adult, american (free speech and such) I make up my own mind and form my own opinions and I express them when I feel like it. If Robert were to offer me *his opinion*, I'd certainly listen to what he had to say, and perhaps it could change my mind but it's not the case of his telling me what to think or how to behave. I wouldn't want to be part of any "family" that tried to do that.

I'm glad you take responsibility for your actions and that’s good that you do but you do represent as a student of Roberts

**No, I don't represent Robert (nor my high school or my college or my law school or any person that taught me), I represent only myself.

their for you hold some responsibilities to respect your Sifu, to respect the system, and to respect the ancestors of the systems past, or maybe you just do that when its to your convenience.

**I don't respect anything because I'm told to. I respect Robert because he has earned my respect. I don't know what you're talking about with "respect the system or the ancestors". I don't think that way.

Regards,

Terence

[Cang Long]

Terence & David
appreciate you taking the time out to respond if nothing else.

Terence,
Chinese not an important part of your training. "Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying" in Robert Chu terminology this is known as the 5 phases of combat also refered to as the 5 main principles of wing chun self defense now on his web site. This may not seem like much to you but in terms of Gung wu mo duk Robert's actions are more telling than any words or bonds formed between you two and so it may be easy for you to put his actions aside they are a reminder to us that trust is something still earned.

Dave,
The seminar is too close to the holidays for me though I won't rule it out entirely cause things change but thanks for the invite and you being so close to phoenix/chandler should always rember to stop in for tea and conversation when passing through.

[duende]

Terence and David,

Believe it or not, I'm personally willing to bury the hatchet and move forward. But attempts to settle these disputes have failed in the past. In fact... I was there with my Sifu when I think you David, and Robert, were suppossed to drop by a few years back. But you all didn't show, nor did you make any attempt to inform us why. Not cool.

I also have many Sihings who are truly ****ed-off.

Just to give you an example, here's what my Sihing Matt Kwan has to say...

Some things just **** ME OFF - “repackaged” and "relabeled", the company in these internet forums concedes they do not consider HFYWCK to be Wing Chun at all.

Let me say something about REPACKAGING and RELABELED and perhaps the Author of this note should run back to his SIFU and ask him about it.

Not to long ago a certain Master X from LA came to our school to visit Sifu Gee before completing his Wing Chun book. Master X happened to be the teacher of this POSTER.

I happened to be there that night. Master X had walked in with his HEIR of Arrogance stating that “Wing Chun is like THIS and Not THAT”. It’s no wonder his student turned out like the way his is. How misguided.

Anyways after Sifu Gee let Master X spew out his opinion of what Wing Chun is, Sifu Gee told him that that is the Master X’s own Wing Chun but it is not the way we understand Wing Chun because we follow a set of concept and principle as opposed a the collection of moves in a certain manner.

Sifu Gee explained a little to Master X about some of the concepts of Wing Chun. Suddenly the ****y Master X tried humbling his attitude. After talking to Sifu Gee, Master X ask Sifu Gee if Master X could be Sifu personal student.

During he course of the night Master X turned to my Sihing John Murphy and asked him if could have a piece of paper (out of all of us in the room about 20, Master X ignored everybody and only spoke to Sifu Gee and John Murphy) and proceed to copy every thing he could find.

That night Sifu Gee had Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying (Baai Jong, jit Kiu, Chum Kiu, Jeui Ying and Wiu Ma) on the board.

The next thing we know some time shortly after Master X left our school, Master X quickly posted his notes oF “Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying” from his visit with Sifu Gee on a website as articles and also had “Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying” printed in a Martial arts Magazine as his teaching and knowledge without paying any respect to Sifu Gee or our Wing Chun Family which is where he learned it from.

The funny thing is that Master X didn’t know what was the correct meaning behind the words – Just because a person knows Chinese doesn’t mean a person knows the correct translation from the original Chinese Characters. Master X tried to decipher his brief notes and came up with his own interpretation without thinking that there could be more to know than what he copied. What a JoKE.!

Now LET’S Talk about REPACKAGING!! The Student who posted this Should really know who is “repackaging” and who is BrainWashed!!! He should ask his MASTER who did his master learn this from.

This person should WAKE UP and smell the coffee OR turn around and LOOK IN THE MIRROR ask himself "Am I learning the real deal or something else?"


SAUCHI


So let's move forward. But to move forward we must acknowledge what has happened in the past.

[dave mckinnon]

Duende Wrote:

Believe it or not, I'm personally willing to bury the hatchet and move forward.
***Great, me too***


But attempts to settle these disputes have failed in the past.

***We should try to live in the present, this is a good endeavor I think***


In fact... I was there with my Sifu when I think you David, and Robert, were supposed to drop by a few years back. But you all didn't show, nor did you make any attempt to inform us why. Not cool.

***I am fairly sure that was not I. I live in San Diego and if I was supposed to go somewhere with Sifu and Terence (Who I have not seen in at least 3 - 4 years, then I am sure I would remember it. Sifu has several other senior students who could have been with him, one of whom is named David as well

As for the letter after, neither of us was there so it is hard to say, my Sifu or my senior brother who was there may have a different story. I am letting bygones be bygones and I wish we could all do the same.

Please come to the Seminar, meet Robert for yourself, meet me and we can have some extra training after the seminar. We can compare systems, chi sao or just chat.

What do you say, will you be the first on to burry the hatchet with me and come to San Diego? ***

Dave

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

Terence,
Chinese not an important part of your training.

**In WCK there is no consistency of terminology, some folks use different terms for the same idea others use the same term for different ideas. Just trying to see what *you* were talking about.

"Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying" in Robert Chu terminology this is known as the 5 phases of combat also refered to as the 5 main principles of wing chun self defense now on his web site.

**In my experience, this is not something unique to Robert or HFY, it is present in one form or another in almost any branch of WCK. YKS WCK has the same ideas in very similar terms, for example. As you may know, Robert studied YKS long before he ever heard of HFY or hung suen WCK. In any event, my opinion is that no one, or no lineage or family, "owns" these things. You never hear genuine fighters, like boxers, bjjists, MMAists, etc., talking about how so-and-so "stole" their move or whatever -- true fighters don't even think like that.

This may not seem like much to you but in terms of Gung wu mo duk Robert's actions are more telling than any words or bonds formed between you two and so it may be easy for you to put his actions aside they are a reminder to us that trust is something still earned.

**Let me just say a few things. First, the whole "mo duk" issue is IMO nonsense, it's bad Shaw movie stuff. It might be useful for you to talk to someone like Tim Cartmell (of shenwu.com) who lived in China for years and studied xing yi (and fought full-contact in Asian tournaments, and now holds a great NHB tourney, btw) about your views of "mo duk" and chinese culture. You might find what he has to say surprising. Second, I don't know what Robert did or didn't do, nor do I care. Nor would I care if you "stole" something from me -- that's what fighters do, they take anything that will be useful to them and make it their own. BFD. You'll never hear fighters ***** about stuff like this. Third, as I said before, if you or anyone have some problem with Robert, take it up with him. If you have a problem with me, take it up with me. Just don't confuse us because we are not the same person.

Regards,

Terence

PS - Duende, I'm not going to respond to your si-hing's comments since I wasn't there. But as I said, if he has a problem with Robert, he should take that up with Robert. Personally, I find conerns about that sort of thing rather petty -- I mean, who cares? Does anyone really think knowing a list of keywords, for example, will help them be a better fighter? The proof is in the pudding.

[Cang Long]

**In my experience, this is not something unique to Robert or HFY, it is present in one form or another in almost any branch of WCK. YKS WCK has the same ideas in very similar terms,... -- that's what fighters do, they take anything that will be useful to them and make it their own. BFD. One minute you say most fighting knowledge is public domain and couldn't be stolen then you say thats what people of your ilk do, steal. Robert Chu couldn't steal the knolwedge he only got the words off the white board he can't teach you or anyone else about Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying in the HFY sense of the meaning its the fact that in his article he didn't give Credit to Grand Master Gee that puts Roberts character into question. My reasoning for questioning you is that your post more than most always question other peoples claims and character but your Sifu seems to be incapable of no wrong doing. Then you move on to show me the results well last time (a while ago )when we were discussing Master Mengs students meeting of Robert Chu's students you said the internet post was inaccurate. Well I have seen some of Master Mengs student accomplishments from gor sau competions to forms to san shou but not Roberts. I asked you this question before but I'll ask you again because you have no problem asking others who has Robert Chu trained that has posted notable results in any competion that anyone with internet access can easily and readily verify. He calls himself a Master and you said he was trained in several arts surely you have some names for me.

[t_niehoff]

canglong wrote:

One minute you say most fighting knowledge is public domain and couldn't be stolen

**Please read what I say carefullly -- I said that this particular item you mentioned is nothing unique to Robert or HFY.

then you say thats what people of your ilk do, steal.

**My ilk? ;) I'm saying that fighters -- people who are training to develop better fighting skills -- don't recognize that anyone "owns" any aspect of fighting. Fighters recognize that the issue is performance, that can't be "stolen" or faked.

Robert Chu couldn't steal the knolwedge he only got the words off the white board he can't teach you or anyone else about Ng Jan Chiu Min Jeui Ying in the HFY sense of the meaning its the fact that in his article he didn't give Credit to Grand Master Gee that puts Roberts character into question.

**But as I pointed out -- hence why I suggest you read my posts -- is that this "knowledge" doesn't belong to Garrett and doesn't necessarily come from Garrett: YKS WCK along with most other lineages have the same idea. As I understood the article, it was that those principles were universal in WCK.

My reasoning for questioning you is that your post more than most always question other peoples claims and character but your Sifu seems to be incapable of no wrong doing.

**I don't really question character -- I don't, for instance, care if my golf pro is a nice guy or not, just whether he can help me become a better golfer! Claims I always question because I'm interested in performance.

Then you move on to show me the results well last time (a while ago )when we were discussing Master Mengs students meeting of Robert Chu's students you said the internet post was inaccurate. Well I have seen some of Master Mengs student accomplishments from gor sau competions to forms to san shou but not Roberts. I asked you this question before but I'll ask you again because you have no problem asking others who has Robert Chu trained that has posted notable results in any competion that anyone with internet access can easily and readily verify. He calls himself a Master and you said he was trained in several arts surely you have some names for me.

**I'm not, nor do I think most of Robert's students, are interested in chi sao competitions or form competitions or san shou competitions -- because none of that is what we are training for: increased fighting performance (you don't see MMAists doing that crap either). Dave McKinnon trains regularly with cage fighters, if you want to see firsthand the results of his training, I suggest you visit his seminar. I'll bet you that he will be more than happy to show you what he can do. Alan Orr (in England) trains NHB fighters (has a video series out on it). Kim Elman (from Sweden) fights full-contact. I train with NHB fighters too (you can talk to Scott Baker, the WT guy who fought in UFC 2, if you want to hear a WCK fighters opinion on my skills as he's visited me). In the end, all I care about is my personal performance level, and whether my training, including that with Robert, has helped me or not. Based on my experience, I'm satisfied. If you're satisifed with your training, that's great too. It's performance results that speak, not theory or claims IMO.

Regards,

Terence

[Cang Long]

**But as I pointed out -- hence why I suggest you read my posts -- is that this "knowledge" doesn't belong to Garrett and doesn't necessarily come from Garrett: YKS WCK along with most other lineages have the same idea. As I understood the article, it was that those principles were universal in WCK. No HFY member said Robert was wrong for stealing the info my view is that he is wrong for not giving due credit, read my post.**I don't really question character -- I don't, for instance, care if my golf pro is a nice guy or not, just whether he can help me become a better golfer! Claims I always question because I'm interested in performance. Your post about Master Kwok was about his character.**I'm not, nor do I think most of Robert's students, are interested in chi sao competitions or form competitions or san shou competitions -- because none of that is what we are training for: increased fighting performance (you don't see MMAists doing that crap either). Dave McKinnon trains regularly with cage fighters, if you want to see firsthand the results of his training, I suggest you visit his seminar. I'll bet you that he will be more than happy to show you what he can do. Alan Orr (in England) trains NHB fighters (has a video series out on it). Kim Elman (from Sweden) fights full-contact. I train with NHB fighters too (you can talk to Scott Baker, the WT guy who fought in UFC 2, if you want to hear a WCK fighters opinion on my skills as he's visited me). In the end, all I care about is my personal performance level, and whether my training, including that with Robert, has helped me or not. Based on my experience, I'm satisfied. If you're satisifed with your training, that's great too. It's performance results that speak, not theory or claims IMO. All that jibberish means is that you don't have any names and secondly you need to stop asking others for results if self results are all that concern you then others results should not regardless of if they host a seminar or not such as you have in the past irregardless of if they post on fighting threads like your sarcasam to kj on the kimbo thread.

And Dave and I have met in Ohio at a seminar.

[t_niehoff]

canglong,

Let me try once more to get my meaning across -- I'm saying it is not the case of Robert stealing these 5 principles as they are universal principles of WCK in the first place. They are in YKS and YM WCK already, he had YKS and YM WCK before he ever heard of Garrett. Why should he give Garrett credit for something that's common knowledge in WCK? Get over it.

What post about Kwok? What are you talking about? When did I ever say anything about Kwok?

When I talk about "results", I'm not talking about "tournament results", blue ribbons and trophies and those things -- I'm talking about measured, increased progress in one's fighting skills. Those are determined by fighting as part of one's training, particularly with skilled fighters. Someone that goes to a boxing gym will see "results" from getting in the ring over time regardless of whether they ever go fight in a tournament. In BJJ, we roll (spar) on the mats and over time see the "results" of that practice whether we ever go to a tournament or not. I'm talking about results in increased performance. Get it? So when I mention some of Robert's students that are fighting with skilled fighters, I'm doing so to indicate that they can say whether or not they have gotten results.

Regards,

Terence

[Cang Long]

They are in YKS and YM WCK already They weren't in there before Robert stepped into the Hung Fa kwoon ask him. I didn't get the chance to ask him myself since he never showed up at 2 different scheduled meetings with Grand Master Gee while I was in San Francisco. originally post by t_niehoff
Third, Samuel Kwok is not a "fighter" -- who has he fought? That has nothing to do with your "personal performance level".In BJJ, we roll (spar) on the mats and over time see the "results" of that practice whether we ever go to a tournament or not. What wing chun practitioner couldn't say the same. You were the one requesting the big gor sau competition as I recall or have you forgotten that as well.

[dave mckinnon]

Is this what our Kung Fu is about?

"In all directions, there is one family."

Right at the top of the page.

So lets stop arguing.

Here is an opportunity to meet with and talk to people who you take issue with.

Several people who have the same or more time involved in Wing Chun, have met Sifu Chu and have commented to me that they are amazed at his depth of knowledge as well as ability to package Wing Chun in a way that brings it all together for them. This is not Family X Wing Chun this is Functional Wing Chun. Even if you do not study the system, learning from anyone with a high degree of knowledge and insight can improve your art...

A chance to make amends and clarify details. This would be a great opportunity to clarify any lingering questions you may have concerning the writings and methods of Sifu Chu.

Instead of arguing, I am inviting people here to openly experience something that they have no real exposure to and get it from the horses mouth. Sifu Chu always offers time for Q&A as well as takes the time to work with everyone individually.

If you do not like what you see within the first hour, Give me your notes, and I will return the money and show you how to get to Sea world or Lego land.

Dave :frog:

[duende]

Dave,

"in all directions, there is one family" is a great example of how important Gung wu mo duk is to HFY, and that is why it is posted above. Obviously it doesn't mean much to Terrence, but it does to HFY because without it, ultimately everything falls apart.

In SF alone, look at the long history of fighting between the different YM lineages present, not to mention the greater one between L TIng and W Cheung. Also think about how within those two organizations, there is fighting and people who have left the organization to start new systems of their own.

How can a system remain true and survive all this kind of turmoil and not fall victim to such conflicts??? The answer??? Gung Wu Mo Duk.

Now to apply it in a larger sense to the entire Kung Fu community like you have would be ideal. But be prepared to have a few cynical types like Terrence take a stab at you.

And remember... it only carries any weight if you follow it yourself, which leads me to my last point.

The only way I or any of my Sihings, could ever consider attending one of your seminars, is if you publicly apologized for those "re-packaged" comments you've made in the past.

[dave mckinnon]

Does that mean if I appologize you will come or are you looking for some sort of online victory?

I will assume that you are serious so I am sorry if any of my past comments have hurt anyone or anyones feelings. Those are really in the past and I have no attachment to that any more.

There is no conflict between you and I or anyone in the Wing Chun world. At this point in my training I am glad for every moment I have to train and I an accepting when I cannot train.

See you in San Diego
:cool:

Dave

[duende]

Originally posted by dave mckinnon
Does that mean if I appologize you will come or are you looking for some sort of online victory?


Neither


I will assume that you are serious so I am sorry if any of my past comments have hurt anyone or anyones feelings. Those are really in the past and I have no attachment to that any more.



Cool David... that's a big start to building a bridge.

Good luck to you in your training, and I look forward to productive conversations in the future.

As far as your seminar is concerned, I currently am scheduled for work at that time. (just checked the actual date of your seminar) However the nature of my job contains a rather high-percentage level of changes (to say the least), so it may free up.

Regards,

Alex

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I have noticed that in the past people say things that offend others because it being a direct assaults on their lineage's or an assault on a personal level. The thing we need to remember is that although one forgives another for actions of the past others do not forget.
If I forget the past Savi will remember and if he forgets Alex will remember... The history of WC politics has been written and it can always be forgiven but as history, it is never forgotten!
I see the people that have built a rep in the past and although they have retracted in some form or another, they have set a reputation in the community. I hope that people can gain from this and try to not be full of ego, this way we can all learn instead of arguing viewpoints. This d e a prime example of " in all directions, there is one family."
Lets start the learning process and forgive the past!:cool:
JamesHFYofAZ

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by duende
Anyways after Sifu Gee let Master X spew out his opinion of what Wing Chun is, Sifu Gee told him that that is the Master X’s own Wing Chun but it is not the way we understand Wing Chun because we follow a set of concept and principle as opposed a the collection of moves in a certain manner.

Sifu Gee explained a little to Master X about some of the concepts of Wing Chun. Suddenly the ****y Master X tried humbling his attitude. After talking to Sifu Gee, Master X ask Sifu Gee if Master X could be Sifu personal student.

SAUCHI


Hi Sauchi,

Thank God! You happened to be there that night. Follow your advice and cues. They know whose egos to massage and which palms to grease.


El


(Quote)"......teaches the essence of Chu Sau Lei family of Wing Chun as passed on by Robert Chu Sifu. Grounded in a real world systematic approach to learning, it focuses on the student being able to understand the concepts and principles of the art rather than wrote memorization of 100's of techniques. The concentration on functional training sets Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun further apart by allowing the student to adapt what they do for each situation they find themselves in instead of a paint-by-numbers response. Also a hallmark of Chu Sau Lei is the use of body structure and internal body mechanics to allow anyone to defend themselves no matter what their size."

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
I have noticed that in the past people say things that offend others because it being a direct assaults on their lineage's or an assault on a personal level. The thing we need to remember is that although one forgives another for actions of the past others do not forget.
If I forget the past Savi will remember and if he forgets Alex will remember... The history of WC politics has been written and it can always be forgiven but as history, it is never forgotten!


Hi James,

You can tell metals by their ring and men by their voice. Where our Kung Fu family's honor is at stake, it is never forgotten.


El

[dave mckinnon]

The past is in the past.

It is good to hold onto the lessons of the past but also to release the emotions associated with it. Otherwise we can become stuck there.

OP108WC, I see you have found Marty's site.

I believe he will be there for the Seminar too.

Quote "Lets start the learning process and forgive the past!
JamesHFYofAZ"

I have made several trips to the VTM to see HFY and for a Friendship Seminar. Who will be willing to do the same in the name of friendship and knowledge?

So Op108wc I will expect you in San Diego?

Dave

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Why do I get the sense of urgency from you Dave, there is no need to rush things. Our family is always open but after such arguments, I thing it would be best to let the seas calm down. This will also help reassure your sincere apology and the friendship we are trying to build together! If it's meant to happen then it will happen, but in the appropriate time and space with good energies. You wouldn't rush a friend to do something they were unsure of, would you?

[Cang Long]

I will assume that you are serious so I am sorry if any of my past comments have hurt anyone or anyones feelings. Those are really in the past and I have no attachment to that any more.---dave mckinnon David,
First, in the tradition of proper mo duk your past actions and remarks were not an insult to Duende but in fact an insult to the entire HFY Family and in order for your apology to be seen as sincere and possibly accepted it must be made to the entire family by way of Grand Master Gee the only person who could possibly speak for the entire HFY Family anything less will be considered insincere.

Secondly, feel free to advertise your seminar in our Yip Man forum section as you did on KFO and like so many others you and your attendees are welcome to post your comments about the actual seminar in our workshop forum at its conclusion. Enjoy a wonderful time with your Sifu and guest.

Happy Holidays

[t_niehoff]

"in the tradition of proper mo duk your past actions and remarks were not an insult to Duende but in fact an insult to the entire HFY Family and in order for your apology to be seen as sincere and possibly accepted it must be made to the entire family by way of Grand Master Gee the only person who could possibly speak for the entire HFY Family anything less will be considered insincere."

ROFLMAO! You guys are too much. This is bad Shaw Brothers movie stuff ("you have offended my family and the Shaolin Temple!"). While I understand that role playing is often a part of the "attraction" of the Chinese Martial Arts, I think you're taking this way too seriously.

http://www.freedomofmind.com/

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by t_niehoff
ROFLMAO! You guys are too much. This is bad Shaw Brothers movie stuff ("you have offended my family and the Shaolin Temple!").

Not knowing who or what was behind me, I used to surprise my angel like that--"BIG BITES FOR BIG MOUTHS, LOFTY THINGS FOR LOFTY SPIRITS." And you always have possibilities of wakeful vision, even in the most degraded or confused situations.

Originally posted by t_niehoff
While I understand that role playing is often a part of the "attraction" of the Chinese Martial Arts, I think you're taking this way too seriously.

"too seriously." --Your point is worth considering. This wisdom is old and young at the same time, and it is never tarnished or diminished by the relative problems in the world.

[Cang Long]

Terence,
That you relate Martial training and experience to Shaw Brothers movies is telling in and of itself. Curious though when the balif say all rise have you ever rebelled against that.

[t_niehoff]

Great retorts -- but now you've gone and done it: you have offended my family and the Shaolin temple! And don't try to put all this behind us with any sort of apology; until the Grand Poobah tells me otherwise, I will remain offended.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Is Terence real? I see him never being forgotten in the WC community for his outlandish comments (mind frame). Good job!:rolleyes: One would think that a lawyer would be understanding to the natures of law and order. O wait, they find ways around that!:D

[Cang Long]

Code of Honor (Mo Duk) (http://www.alanorr.com/htdocs/wingchun/codeofhonour.html)

[Op108wc]

Mo Duk?

"A masterful rule, which needs no comment."

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by dave mckinnon


So Op108wc I will expect you in San Diego?

Dave

Dave,

Do you want me to massage Robert's ego for you?


El

[Hungman]

Dear El,

You have a fresh young face of Poker, but Robert Chu and his students don't think you play poker by reading other people.


HM

"I fell in love recenlty. The world's incredibly beautiful. The colors all around are brighter. I appreciate what I take for granted at times. Such as, how much I love my family and friends, how fortunate I am to be living in this day and age. The awesome possibilities the future may hold, that I may achieve with commitment and Faith. I've realized how precious and short life is, whether one lives a hundred years or even a fraction of that number. This enable me to slow down and experience each day, hour, minute and most importantly, moment. Yes, this is indeed a gorgeous time and I feel like a billion bucks. wow Love is always really the answer and the greatest....I'm in love and I know this feeling will last forever!

I was of course, referencing my love of Poker in the preceding paragraph." --By Jennifer Martiran

[Op108wc]

Hungman,

I don't think you play poker by reading other people. I think you play poker by reading how other people are reading you. lol...


El

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Op108wc
Hungman,

I don't think you play poker by reading other people. I think you play poker by reading how other people are reading you. lol...


El


El,

You are good at whatever you do. What else I could say about you?

My last post has been an exaggerated illustration that is intended solely for entertainment purposes.


HM

[dave mckinnon]

There is no urgency.

I am not attached. What purpose does it serve to be attached to the past or to live in the future?

I have compassion for my Kung Fu brothers and want to see an end to their suffering.

I have invited everyone to San Diego to meet Sifu Chu and myself in order to straighten out any unanswered questions. I believe we will find there is a fair amount of misunderstanding and mistrust that can be laid to rest.

If you are not ready for this I can accept it?

So again I will say that you might want to come and meet myself, Robert Chu and many of the people I train with on a regular basis to truly see what we are doing.

Dave

[HFY Eagle]

David

Knowing that you are young and easily influenced I can understand the position that you are taking. To me the past means an awful lot. Like the time Master Benny Meng spent 3 days in LA with a promise from your sifu Robert Chu to meet. What happened? No real satisfactory reason was given for the no show. That is hard to forget and shows a total lack of kung fu ettiquette.

I have compassion for my Kung Fu brothers and want to see an end to their suffering.

What are you trying to say here David? An end to THEIR suffering… What does the suffering of your kung fu brothers have to do with HFY anyway... ?

If you are not ready for this I can accept it?

So again I will say that you might want to come and meet myself, Robert Chu and many of the people I train with on a regular basis to truly see what we are doing.

David, it’s not a matter of being ready or not. This forum was created with the intention of allowing each Wing Chun family the opportunity to share and grow. Although I have 0 interest in the Wing Chun that your sifu teaches, I am sure that there are other forum members who might be interested in participating in your seminar. Nothing personal.

John

[dave mckinnon]

Hello John…


(John)Knowing that you are young and easily influenced I can understand the position that you are taking.

(Dave) John, have we met? Do you know me. But you could, you could go to my website here (http://www.Wingchunfaat.com) or we could meet. Are you in San Francisco or Arizona or Ohio?

(John) To me the past means an awful lot. Like the time Master Benny Meng spent 3 days in LA with a promise from your Sifu Robert Chu to meet. What happened? No real satisfactory reason was given for the no show. That is hard to forget and shows a total lack of kung fu etiquette.

(Dave) Because you need a satisfactory answer reveals an awful lot. I think bygones are bygones. You can learn from the past, but to dwell on them accomplishes nothing. Presence is the key to better Kung Fu.

I have compassion for my Kung Fu brothers and want to see an end to their suffering.

(John) What are you trying to say here David? An end to THEIR suffering… What does the suffering of your kung fu brothers have to do with HFY anyway...?

(Dave) John, I am trying to say that attachment and living in the past or projecting the future is suffering. I feel compassion for people who suffer and hope they can transcend it. I feel every one who studies HFY is a relative of some sort so when I say an end the suffering of my Kung Fu brothers I mean everyone in the martial arts world including myself.

If you are not ready for this I can accept it?

So again I will say that you might want to come and meet myself, Robert Chu and many of the people I train with on a regular basis to truly see what we are doing.

(John) David, it’s not a matter of being ready or not. This forum was created with the intention of allowing each Wing Chun family the opportunity to share and grow. Although I have 0 interest in the Wing Chun that your sifu teaches, I am sure that there are other forum members who might be interested in participating in your seminar. Nothing personal.

(Dave) Great, I would love to meet anyone that wants to come and train and Chi Sau or just have tea.

Dave

[dave mckinnon]

Hello,

I posted the semianr information in the events section of this board.

I hope to see you all there!

Dave McKinnon

Here (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=881)

Hello,

It is a new year and a very exciting time for everyone as we look forward to another great year of training.

In the spirit of openness and further education, I am inviting Sifu Robert Chu to San Diego to teach a seminar on the 29th and 30th of January 2005.

This promises to be an exceptional seminar and I encourage everyone who can make it to sign up ASAP. I have had a lot of great response from local Wing Chun, Mixed Martial Artists and practitioners from other Traditional Chinese and Japanese systems. Committing to come to this seminar is committing to seeing a jump in your understanding and skill in the New Year.

Since originally posting this in November, I have received some great feedback from people who have met, trained with or hosted a seminar by Sifu Chu. I hope to see you all there.

We host seminars in Germany with Sifu Robert Chu. He is a excellent teacher and I’m looking forward to meet him next year.

– Andreas Hoffmann Grand Master Chi Sim Wing Chun

For those interested, Robert does teach an effective Wing Chun method and any one interested in progressing their knowledge is well advised to attend. I have many differences from his approach, but his approach is very good. I have known him for years and have always thought he was very knowledgeable and has very pragmatic aproach to wing chun. I have attended a mini class/seminar durring a wing chun friendship meeting and have to say I thought his stuff was functional.

– Tom Parker

If people have a chance, they should go. Robert is one of those rare individuals who can often improve your application ability drastically in a short period of time. You won't get a specific historic lineage or super secret technique, just incredibly solid mechanics to increase power and efficiency.

– Rene Richie

“Every time I attend a seminar taught by Sifu Chu, I find my understanding increases dramatically. Meeting him opened my eyes to the efficiency of the Wing Chun combative method.”

– Dave McKinnon

[BennyMeng]

Originally posted by dave mckinnon
If people have a chance, they should go. Robert is one of those rare individuals who can often improve your application ability drastically in a short period of time. You won't get a specific historic lineage or super secret technique, just incredibly solid mechanics to increase power and efficiency.

– Rene Richie

With his comments, "You won't get a specific historic lineage or super secret technique, " Rene paints himself as a troll, disrespectful or insecure.

When not being specific, it is because the details are lacking. You can't have solid mechanics without details.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by BennyMeng
With his comments, "You won't get a specific historic lineage or super secret technique, " Rene paints himself as a troll, disrespectful or insecure.

When not being specific, it is because the details are lacking. You can't have solid mechanics without details.


When not being specific, it's like a monkey in the forest, you jump from tree to tree, never finding the fruit.

Rene Ritchie, do you train WCK? Who with?



El

[Cang Long]

Reading Rene's words there is no sense of a warrior, both a warriors words and actions are deliberate decisive and definitive none of these could be attributed to Rene Ritchies' character or persona.

[dave mckinnon]

That is an interesting opinion Tony.

Have you met Rene?

Are you coming to the seminar I am hosting in San Diego I would love to meet you :)

I think such inflammatory comments are unlikely when people meet face to face.

Dave

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Reading Rene's words there is no sense of a warrior, both a warriors words and actions are deliberate decisive and definitive none of these could be attributed to Rene Ritchies' character or persona.


Here the word "warrior" is taken from the Chinese MO SI, which literally means "one who is brave." Warriorship in this context is the tradition of human bravery, or the tradition of fearlessness.

[Cang Long]

originally posted by dave mckinnon
I think such inflammatory comments are unlikely when people meet face to face. Though they may not be flattering they certainly weren't mean spirited either this was said in an effort to help Rene improve himself and would certainly share this opinion with him upon meeting him.

[dmilner321]

Dave McKinnon,

I wanted to respond to your invitation.

First off, I am a HFY student in AZ. I don't speak for the HFY family in any official capacity. I would like to present my view and take on this.

I do appreciate you taking the time to extend yourself, good will, and seminar invitation to our HFY family. Your comments and the energy they present do come across with a certain amount of courtesy or mo duc in my opinion. If I have the time, means or am in San Diego I would take you up on your offer to come have tea / train.

One of the problems in this situation is that your teacher Robert Chu (I guess, or is he just an invited seminar instructor?) has not exactly behaved himself in the past toward our HFY family with anywhere near the same amount of courtesy, respect, or mo duc even that you present. People can change, and I'm sure most in our HFY family will be willing to not let the past limit our present and future. However, as Robert Chu has been the one who has built up the negative energy toward our HFY family, Robert would probably be the best one to reach out to the HFY family to make amends and move forward, replacing negative energy with positive.

I'm curious, is the invitation to your seminar something that Robert Chu has directed you to do, or something you have discussed with him and he has approved? Or is it just you acting on your own initiative to try and mend things over?

I personally won't be able to attend the seminar - with the resources I have this year - money, vacation time, etc. I am trying to focus on getting to some of my own HFY family's events.
But thanks for offering.

Rgds,
Dave Milner

[dave mckinnon]

Dave McKinnon,

I wanted to respond to your invitation.
(Dave McKinnon) Thanks Dave


First off, I am a HFY student in AZ. I don't speak for the HFY family in any official capacity. I would like to present my view and take on this.
(Great, this is an open forum; I think the more participation the better.)
I do appreciate you taking the time to extend yourself, good will, and seminar invitation to our HFY family. Your comments and the energy they present do come across with a certain amount of courtesy or mo duc in my opinion. If I have the time, means or am in San Diego I would take you up on your offer to come have tea / train.
(Dave McKinnon) You and any visitor is always welcome, I am busy so a courtesy call is always better, but if you find yourself in the area, then please stop bye.

One of the problems in this situation is that your teacher Robert Chu (I guess, or is he just an invited seminar instructor?) has not exactly behaved himself in the past toward our HFY family with anywhere near the same amount of courtesy, respect, or mo duc even that you present.
(Dave McKinnon) That is a valid observation, and I would say that everyone in the past has done things that are either ill intentioned or misconstrued as to their intentions. If Robert wants to come to this board publicly and communicate anything I am sure he will. I will say that he does indeed communicate with Benny Meng and Andreas Hoffman and mentioned to me he wished them both a merry Christmas. I do not know if they have replied. As for what was said or done before, isn’t letting go of attachment one of the keys top developing in a martial art and as a person?
People can change, and I'm sure most in our HFY family will be willing to not let the past limit our present and future. However, as Robert Chu has been the one who has built up the negative energy toward our HFY family, Robert would probably be the best one to reach out to the HFY family to make amends and move forward, replacing negative energy with positive.
(Dave McKinnon) I am reaching out, I am using my time and resources here to invite people to an open environment where they can experience the Chu Sau Lei method just as I have had the chance to attend and see the HFY method. There is no conflict just Wing Chun.




I'm curious, is the invitation to your seminar something that Robert Chu has directed you to do, or something you have discussed with him and he has approved? Or is it just you acting on your own initiative to try and mend things over?
(Dave McKinnon) Of course not. He asked me when arranging it if it was to be an open or closed (my students only) seminar and I decided to make it open to the public. I made this decision because coming to Robert Chu as a student of another method of Wing Chun, he was able to fine tune my application and make it more effective through the use and understanding he has of Wing Chun’s conceptual framework. Shortly after, I became a dedicated student of his. I believe, he has an incredible gift as a martial artist, educator and healer and that anyone who meets him will benefit from the experience.

I personally won't be able to attend the seminar - with the resources I have this year - money, vacation time, etc. I am trying to focus on getting to some of my own HFY family's events.
But thanks for offering.

(Dave McKinnon) Your welcome!

Rgds,
Dave Milner
(Dave McKinnon)