Where did Traditional Wing Chun come From

[sihing]

I'd just like to open up a can of worms. As one of the moderators of this forum I would like to start a discussion on where did Grandmaster William Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun come from. As a former member of his association I am aware of the history of the Traditional Wing Chun system as headed by GM Cheung, but since I have been out of the association and also since the revelation of the Hung Fai Yi Wing Chun system headed by Grandmaster Garrett Gee, and the visually similar movements of both systems, I think there may be something to be discovered here. Although lots of Wing Chun practitioners believe there is not much difference between what they do and what is done in the TWC system, to me IMO there is many differences. Recently I just reveiwed the 1999 Ving Tsun Association conference tapes and there is a big difference in my eyes between most of the Wing Chun demonstrated there and what GM Cheung's TWC demonstrated, as well as years of viewing and reading up on all the different types of Wing Chun avaiable today.

Now according to GM William Cheung, he learned his TWC system directly from Yip Man, during secret training sessions held while GM Cheung was living with Yip, to which GM Cheung was made to promise to not reveal any of this information until Yip was dead. It has been reported that after Yip Man's death in 1972 that GM Cheung started to teach a different version of WC to his students in Australia. This would coincide with GM Cheung's story and verify the oath that he made to Yip Man. But it has also been reported that the forms in the TWC system have changed over the years. I have seen the differences/changes myself in videos of GM Cheung performing certain forms in TWC in different years. Why is this? Has GM Cheung altered what he learned from Yip Man? Improved it per say?

Hopefully there are other TWC people that view this forum once in awhile. Please feel free to comment on any of the above comments, as well as anyone out there that may have a perspective that can contribute to this discussion.


James

[William E]

Sihing

I would first like to publically welcome you as our latest moderator of the TWC forum.

As far as your most recent post goes I came accross something in one of the other forums that I found interesting and thought I would share.

What does everyone think?

William E.


Subject: Chu Chong-Man aka Leung Bik Author: King of Iron Fist Chu Chong-Man Date: 2004/7/22 ¤W¤È 08:47:09
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Some Questions....

Who taugh TWC to Yip Man?

Was Leung Bik actaully Chu Chong-Man?

Did Chi Sim masters ever tell Yip Man not to reveal his secret art to public?

How much Chi Sim stuffs did Yip Man learn from his uncle & sifu Chu Chong-Man?



A Theory About TWC

COMPLETE WING CHUN INDEED IS INCOMPLETE

So what Holger said to me that day - and what is also alluded to in the book(Complete Wing Chun) I mentioned...is a theory...or an account...or whatever you want to call it - that GM Yip Man had spent some time in a very private (and secret) school in Hong Kong that taught Chi Sim Weng Chun...and in fact had an uncle (or some relative or another) who was a Weng Chun Master/instructor/practitioner of Weng Chun at that school.


INSIDE CHI SIM STORY

What Holger added to this idea (that was not written in the book)...he said that, according to what had been told to Andreas Hoffman...Yip Man was told, when he finished whatever training he went through at that school...not to share/teach anything he learned at that school publicly; that this was to remain a very private martial art.


YIP MAN TOLD WILLIAM CHEUNG NEVER TO TEACH THE SECRET ART WHILE HE WAS ALIVE

Now let's flash forward...or should we say...flash backward - to 1982, when William Cheung first went public (ie. - WORLDWIDE) with the claim that he learned a different version of wing chun, called TWC...and that Yip Man had told him never to teach the system while he was alive...

and there is evidence that William Cheung did not start teaching TWC openly at his Australian school until after Yip Man's death in December, 1972.

But also...Yip Man said, according to William Cheung...that TWC was a secret art that he (Yip Man) had learned from from Leung Bik...his second wing chun instructor (the son of Leung Jan)...his first sifu being Chan Wah Shun (the moneychanger).

WILLIAM CHEUNG WAS NOT A LIAR

So if we ponder where EXACTLY did TWC come from...it's possible then to come to the conclusion that the secret weng chun school provides the answer....and might answer quite a few questions that have been on many people's minds for a long time now...

For example - one such question might be: Has William Cheung been lying all these years about TWC coming from Leung Bik?

And if the theory I'm presenting now is true - then he wasn't lying at all...since he would simply be repeating...truthfully...what Yip Man may have TOLD him...that TWC came from Leung Bik.


YIP MAN WAS JUST BEING DISCREET

Now if we're going to say that Yip Man was lying...well...so what? Because...if so...it's not something to be concerned about...because it would mean that Yip Man was just being discreet (he had to give William Cheung "some" explanation)...and in this way he was remaining loyal to the wishes of those who taught him at the private school.

This would also account for all of the controversy and problem that some people have with the whole story of Leung Bik...because if William Cheung is telling the truth...then why is there no evidence of TWC being a part of the wing chun that Leung Bik (and Leung Jan) ever pased on anywhere else?


MAY NOT BE A FACT, JUST AN OPINION

Answer: Because TWC didn't come from Leung Jan/Leung Bik.

Although William Cheung honestly believes that it does.

[sihing]

Yes, I've read this post before. It is said that Yip Man frequented the Chi Sim training hall during the 50's and 60's and that one of the Chi Sim masters was related to Yip Man(an Uncle). This is very interesting and may answer allot of questions.

Personally I believe GM Cheung did learn something different from Yip Man, he was one of the top fighters in the Yip Man clan, along side Wong Shun Leung. Some of Yip's students have even said that out of all them, William Cheung was the best fighter(Moy Yat according to what Victor Parlati recalls him saying). I don't believe that he made it up himself, as I am sure he would have revealed that by now, but I do think he has updated some things and improved it as most of the GM have over the generations


James

[Cang Long]

originally posted on KFO
KPM
The problem with this theory is that TWC looks nothing like Chi Sim Wing Chun. I have no doubt that Yip Man worked out with or studied with people other than Chan Wah Shun. The list almost certainly included Ng Chung So, Yuen Kay Shan, and Chu Chong Man. But I seriously doubt he learned a separate form of WCK in its entirety. He likely did what most do and incorporated techniques or concepts that he liked into what he had already learned.

I think the simplest theory about TWC's origins is still the best.....William Cheung developed it on his own over time after he first moved to Australia based upon his own fighting experiences and his own body type/body mechanics. Following an old Chinese tradition, he attributed it to someone famous rather than taking credit for it himself.

Keith

[Cang Long]

The problem with this theory is that TWC looks nothing like Chi Sim Wing Chun. Keith here you discount the fact that if the theories are identical then the two systems don't have to outwardly look the same. He likely did what most do and incorporated techniques or concepts that he liked into what he had already learned. Though here you come back and are more open to modern day theories that suggest if the concepts and theories are in place the systems don't necissarily have to look identical to one another to have a connection. That is what the VT Museum has been reporting most recently that the foundation of a majority of Chinese Martial Arts is Shaolin Chin Na and that the principles & concepts from that foundation are present in Chi Sim Weng Chun and from there the same Shaolin concepts & principles (Tin Yan Dei & Saam Mo Kiu) were advance to the state of Hung Fa Yi Shaolin Wing Chun so as you say they incorporate the same original Shaolin concepts & principles but in a way that is not readily visible to the naked eye so there is in fact a reasonable explination as to how and why these 2 southern arts connect by way of the Red Boat via an art such as TWC which does express outwardly the visible connection you might need to connect the 3 by way of GM Wai Yan ->Chu Chong Man -> Yip Man-> William Cheung.

I am sure if you get the chance to discuss this topic with Master Meng he or other research members can explain in detail this connection. Along with that the study of Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi would be useful as well. Those that study these arts readily acknowledge the visible difference but recognize the obvious connection between the Shaolin principles & concepts. This was most recently visualized, realized and reported by Parlati Sifu after he was visited by and trained with Chi Sim Weng Chun Sifu Eckert. The evidence is out there but people may need to move beyond their preconceived notion of what does or does not constitute a connection.

[William E]

I'd like to point everyone to a recent thread I started concerning an interview that I am conducting with Master Benny Meng in the near future.

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=790

As I mention in the post, I would welcome your thoughts and ideas about what specific questions you might want answered.

William E.

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by sihing
Recently I just reveiwed the 1999 Ving Tsun Association conference tapes and there is a big difference in my eyes between most of the Wing Chun demonstrated there and what GM Cheung's TWC demonstrated....
James
If you go here http://www.wck-media.co.uk you can see the deleted portions of the speech William Cheung made at the 1999 conference plus 2 TWC demos that aren't on the VTAA VCDs.
And yes, Wm. Cheung has "modified" some of YM's teachings. The entry taught to him by YM used a fak sau. Cheung Sifu found a biu sau to work better for him. I also have video of him performing the three empty hand forms and the dummy exactly as YM taught him at the VTAA headquarters in HK circa 1979. Some of the movements are different from the way he teaches them now.
PR

[sihing]

Hey Phil,
Yes I have seen those clips also, they are very interesting and are in deep contrast to what the other WC people were demonstrating.

I agree that GM Cheung has done some refinement of the WC he learned from Yip Man, tweaking they call it today to use a computer term.

Phil,
Is there anyway to get some of that video of GM Cheung demonstrating the original forms to the VTAA back in 79' put on the net for us to observe?

For all of you that read this post, Master Phil has contributed allot of clips of the TWC system on the website he mentioned in his last post. There must be at least 20 clips, with lots of GM Cheung demonstrating and explaining the TWC system and of Master Phil too.

James