Jong Sau Discussion

[Savi]

What kinds of concepts. principles, theories are taught in the WC you practice behind Jong Sau? What is the purpose to Jong Sau?

In HFY, I have learned that Jong Sau may express a concept of range; to always maintain an inside and outside positioning of the hands by keeping them together within the upper half of the body. This is true anywhere within the shoulder-width area, high and low and left to right. Yi Sien Jong Sau (2-line structure hands) shows us how to protect the upper 4 gates whilst expressing the formula (height width and depth tolerances). Outside of the shoulder-width and this cannot apply. Part of HFY's Kiu Sau Theory addresses that zone.

One of the theories behind the Jong Sau is to always clear the gate before neutralizing an attack, rather than focusing on engaging the incoming limb right away. So, rather than intercepting someone's arm (as the visual focal point), it is taught that one would occupy the space to which the arm is entering. It seems to me it is akin to "zone defense" in Basketball, rather than one-on-one. The theory is called "Gei Jong", or skill/ability to use the structure hands in unison (where one arm goes, the other follows). This paragraph describes the moment/timeframe of initial engagement of the attacker.

What I see as the purpose of Jong Sau is that it gives us a direct means to say "hello" to the other person by penetrating and dominating the center space as the primary focus via superior structure/positioning, or to ward off their attack to the outer bounds of the shoulder-width area first, without compromising the coverage of our own space. It is a risk-management tool that gives the user a quicker and safer way to call the shots.

Just like to share some thoughts and hope to get a discussion going.

[Armin]

Hello!

@ hfysavi:

Well, honestly, I have no idea what you are talking about, I can only quess.

Hm, well, ok. I tried to read it up again in Mastering Kung Fu. As far as I know, relatively what I was taught, "Jong Sao", as you call it, is a combination of what I'd call ceter-line (that line again ;) ) and wedge-principle (I dont't know if that's the word you are used to).

It's about positioning your forearm in a way that you surely will make contact and in the same time already (even without contact) block the way of your partners attack. E. g. the Tan Sao can be used as a wedge when being on the outside of your partners arm and the ellbow being on the centerline or it can be used e. g. in a Kwan Sao-movement to take away the space for a possible second attack with the other hand.

But there seems to be more about "Jong Sao". In MKF it's described as a whole exercise-complex used e. g. in Kiu Sao.

However, (over here) there's no special exercise called "Jong Sao". Sorry.


Regards,

Armin.

[Pat Keeley]

Hi Savi,

Your "zone defense" anology was very enlightening.

Thanks,

Pat

[Savi]

Originally posted by Armin
...the Tan Sao can be used as a wedge when being on the outside of your partners arm and the ellbow being on the centerline... I am having trouble seeing how you see the purpose/intent of what you described. Can you elaborate on it for me? Is this usage purely for defense? Would your second hand be in range (close enough) to strike when the Tan Sau bridged (for Tan Da)?

As I understand, the Jong Sau and Tan Sau share the fundamental structure of elbow and wrist position. Let me further explain about Jong Sau.

"Jong Sau" as a structure is in reference to both hands (the unity of Mahn Sau and Wu Sau {front and back hands}) being on center with the intent of first delivering forward energy and occupying your space.

Jong Sau, by definition, encompasses your whole body structure rather than just your arms. So complimentary body alignment is mandatory to support the Jong Sau, as you have mentioned in your "Back Home" thread (which is a great read). You must have the horse support the energy transfers through the Jong Sau.

Originally posted by Armin
or it can be used e. g. in a Kwan Sao-movement to take away the space for a possible second attack with the other hand. So you are using Kwan Sau to collapse the other's space, or to obstruct it from a possible second attack? How does this relate to Jong Sau?

Originally posted by Armin
But there seems to be more about "Jong Sao". In MKF it's described as a whole exercise-complex used e. g. in Kiu Sao. In HFYWCK, there is - from what I have learned - A LOT more to Jong Sau than just being just a pose before you fight, or something you use to look for a bridge.

Read up once more on page 106 in MKF under "Focus of the Jong Sau Exercises" and tell me what you think.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Pat- Why was this enlightening to you?

Armin- I think that savi is trying to point out that its not a technique but a way of always maintaining structure throughout ones movements.
Kwan sau sweeps space, it can, should, cover upper gates, but this is a technique. In doing so, jong sau should be present. Jong sau should be present and maintained through out the sweep, because it is something that the body should already have (SLT level knowledge) instilled in its memory.
For me, Jong sau is a body unity understanding that starts from understanding positions of ones own hands in reference to the whole body, as this should always be present when one is about to and/or has engaging an opponent.
:)

[Armin]

Hi,

for Tan Sao, please compare my answer in "Back home".

Jong Sao. Sifu Meng did let my take a look at a Jong Sao-exercise. What I saw, was what I learned "before my journey" and what I train now (somehow I feel like ol' Bilbo with his Big Journey "There and back again" ;) )

Please correct me, we did it like this: partner attacks with, you push Wu Sao/Man Sao forward. If you get no contact, the Man Sao changes to punch. If you get contact, and the position of your partners arm is bad or his energy is too weak, you push through, too. If his positon is good and his energy strong, you change from Man Sao into something else, in order to deal with his energy.

Oh, yes. This "wedge-principle" is the german term (just translated it word by word) for what you guys describe with "dispersing energy". Your arm has a position like a wedge or the bow of a ship - it divides the water by pushing forward. Different vocabulary, same idea.


Greetings,

Armin.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I can only say that Jong Sau and the wedge concept are two different ways of understanding.
Jong Sau- Structured hand, this is something that is and should always be present in the body. This is also multi-directional.
Wedge principle- a way of engaging energies, learning to find center after encountering a bridge. This is very directional in its understanding on the bridge.
They may share the same common characteristics but they do not describe the same idea. Jong sau is a tool u must always have in your body but the wedge is time and or space related as far as engagement is concerned. With in jong sau lays the wedge.
The biggest understanding that I take away from HFY is that these concept and principles must be viewed as simply as possible when you add more to it you dilute the truth behind the meanings.
The wedge seem to be a few thing rolled into one making it a little more difficult to fully grasp in body and mind. This implies more exercises around the same idea. Jong sau exercises are designed to have primary focus on structural and integrity of self ( center line jong sau). After this, then one can learn directional understandings (i.e. two line jong sau then five line jong sau).

[Armin]

Good morning hfysavi,

please read my post again - I didn't say, that the wedge-principle is the same as Jong Sao; it's just one of the posible principles that can be used.

Is ist correct to say, that Jong Sao is an exercise to build a certain structure and if this structure is in danger of collapsing, for example because your partner has a better position and structure, you rebuild it by moving your hand into another position? And, well, I thought there should always be a connection of body-structure and hands - so I didn't give a thougth to that and didn't mention it, either.

Can you give us an example for that exercise and of the possibillities you have in Jong Sao? Maybe we'll get a better idea by comparing to what I wrote.


Thanks,

Armin.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Your right! Jong Sao", as you call it, is a combination of what I'd call ceter-line (that line again ) and wedge-principle (I dont't know if that's the word you are used to). I must of misunderstood you, oops! :o

[Armin]

... and I was talking to the wrong person, sorry!


Armin.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

LOL (Laugh Out Loud)! That’s funny stuff, did you still want Savi to answer those questions?

[JimH]

To me Jong Sao is simply an initial structure that provides a tactical advantage for entering. The advantage is that from the Jong Sao position you are:

1. Occupying the fastest line of entry the Centerline.
2. Able to fill any space/zone with a very small movement and enter.
3. Establish a visual reference point for assisting visual sensitivity.
4. Using advanced structure minimizing time to target
5. Using advanced structure maximizing the chance for contact and sensitivity.
6. Encouraging opponent to go around your structure so you can cut him off and enter..

The use of Zones I thought was fairly universal in this system. Each tool can fill a zone and may be deployed using only a very small movement from Jong Sao. Small movement means little time used to adapt and so you stay ahead of him... I move second yet I arrive first...'

Jim

[Armin]

JamesJFYoAZ:

If he can - why not? But if you like to answer the questions, you are dearly welcomed!!!


JimH:

To put it into "Yip Man terms": is it (as I wrote) about putting Chi Sao and making contact and hitting together in one single exercise?


To all:

Is Jong Sao an exercise that belongs to chi sao or to application? And why? With chi sao, I mean an exercise for two partners. Application is an exercise, where the partners don't cooperate at all.


Best wishes,

Armin.

[JimH]

Originally posted by Armin


To put it into "Yip Man terms": is it (as I wrote) about putting Chi Sao and making contact and hitting together in one single exercise?


Hi Armin,

Not as I understand the term.

Jong Sao is simply a positional structure such as is Qwan Sao. Jong Sao is the first position used to address the Jong. There is no exercise called Jong Sao that I am aware of in my lineage.

As I wrote: This is a pre-engagement position or structure that takes the line. If you spar you need to enter. When you deal with someone like a boxer they will be doing all kinds of fast movements. The Jong Sao structure is essentially aimed at them and immediately begins to take space away from them, space = time.

"Overcoming movement with stillness.."

When you put Jong Sao 'in their face' it has an amazing effect of limiting their movement options and they see that right away, they will often hesitate... This is a good time to attack! :D

The intention in Jong Sao is to enter, forward intent and spring energy, you’re aiming your weapons right at his center ready to fire them or receive his attack with the counter attack.

This all assumes one understands how to deploy the correct tools to intercept an attack and enter from Jong Sao.

Jim

[Armin]

JimH,

now I understand, thanks!


Armin.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

In the YMWC system this (JimHs post) is true.For me, Jong sau is a body unity understanding that starts from understanding positions of ones own hands in reference to the whole body, as this should always be present when one is about to and/or has engaging an opponent. In the HFY training we have three direct ways of teaching the understandings of jong sau to students, such as, center-line jong sau, two-line jong sau and five-line jong sau.

[JimH]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
In the YMWC system this (JimHs post) is true. In the HFY training we have three direct ways of teaching the understandings of jong sau to students, such as, center-line jong sau, two-line jong sau and five-line jong sau.

Could you discuss these elements? How are they trained and applied?

Thanks,

Jim

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Could you discuss these elements? I would think that it would be ok to talk about it, what do you want to know? If I can't answer it, I'm sure someone else can.
How are they trained and applied? although this would entail a lot of writing I could give you a brief intro. There are three ways of connecting the hands to the feet. First, you develop a body mechanic by doing JS drilling, this is first done in the arms, then the arms and hips then incorporating the feet. On to CLJS, this is the partnering phase, this part teaches one how to cover center with JS. One must first cover center-space before understanding anything else about ones own space. This development builds in you applicable skill knowledge.
Sorry, gotta go for now, having to deal with some family issues.:mad:

[JamesHFYofAZ]

a good thread to read on jong sau!Jong sau (http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=588) :D

[Savi]

In the first drilling exercise of HFY Jong Sau, mechanically the hands pass through three distinct points in space:

1. The Inner Gate, mid reference
2. The Upper Gate, high reference
3. The Outer Gate, mid reference

This drilling, however, does not begin with a six gate posture, but is initially done in a stationary neutral stance (YGKYM). Thus, the focus for this drilling is on developing a sense of position for the gates, both hands occupying the centerline and establishing one elbow on its corresponding yin line.

Why is this so? Why not get both elbows on the yin lines? This is due to the posture of the neutral stance. In a netural stance, the body blocks one elbow from being able to get to a yin line. If both elbows are on the yin line in a neutral stance, you would either have more of a Tan Da type structure, or your inner and outer gates are not properly occupied.

By HFY Formula standard, a six gate posture requires there to be depth (front to back) and width (side to side) between the feet. As an example, a typical front stance may be considered a six gate stance. In these type of stances, one hip is more forward than the other, in contrast to a neutral stance. Having a slight turn in the waist enables both elbows to get to the yin lines unhindered.

So then why not use a six gate posture from the start? In HFY, six gate postures are trained dynamically rather than static. Six gate formations are for full body application and execution of HFYWCK. Whereas in a neutral stance, we can focus on one body mechanic at a time.

It is then logical to begin cultivating a new body motion in a static posture. Only then, when the motion is more natural to the trainee, is when the trainee will couple the motion with footwork. It is the same logic of SNT not having footwork (planting the seed), and CK having footwork (letting the plant grow).

The hand replacement follows the path of a triangle, created by the three points listed above.

One idea behind the purpose of clearing the upper gate before proceeding to the outer gate is because we focus on sweeping the gate first, before resetting our structure. As I see it, this reflects the focus of addressing self-space (knowing yourself) and protecting the upper gate of the body via the triangular movement.

There are concepts that define each movement and position here, but to suffice, this post is focused on mechanic alone.

These pictures are from the MKF book to help illustrate the point.