Back home!

[Armin]

Hi!

Well, after five hours delay and a not-planned stop in New York, I'm back home again.

I want to thank you all, who supported me through this week at the VTM, especially to Jeremy and Tae. And thanks again to Sifu Meng for the input and the honour of teaching me!!!
I will post my diary of this trip as soon as possible.


Greetings from Heidelberg,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

Armin,
You sly fox I didn't even know Congratulaions, how does it feel to awaken please share your thoughts?

[Armin]

Hi Cang Long,

well, I won't be going too much into detail - I'll cover that with my diary. So far so much: Sifu Meng and his team kindly gave me a whle new view on the Ip Man-System. Now everything is logical and I often had the thought: "Why didn't I think of this before???" And one more thing: the approach of the VTM to the Ip Man-System makes learning much more easier, compared to what I experienced in my former schools!


Greetings,

Armin.

PS: Ok, I'll start this evening with my diary (both english and german) and I hope, that tomorrow I'm done with it.

[Chango]

Greetings From Indiana!
I'm glad to hear you had a safe trip home! I must say it was a real pleasure meeting you! Our time together was short but very fulfilling. I hope to see you in the future. Happy holidays.

Chango

[Armin]

Hello,

@ Chango:

Yeah, we had a great time and I really like to see you again. As far as I can say, I'll be back in Octobre. So if you still have your "Saturday-meetings", we will meet again!

Ok now, here's the diary. I spent my hole day on writing and translating. If you find any mistakes, you can keep them!!! :D

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Preface

For more than three years I am not a member of any organisation. Until now me and my students got along pretty well, with what we already had. But several months ago, I started feeling, that I should try and go new ways. Over here in Germany, we have a lot of possibilities learning Wing Chun. There is the EWTO of Leung Ting and Keith Kernspecht, you have the possibility to learn Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun from Philipp Bayer and Barry Lee and there are several master like e. g. Lok Yiu, that have representatives in Germany.

But to be honest, I knew right from the beginning, that I didn’t want to learn form them. The „enjoy“ arguing with each other too much and the do too much politics. So I had to look abroad.

I surched the internet for possible candidates, until I finally cam to the Homepage of the Ving Tsun Museum in Dayton. Hm, the goal of the museum was the research of the roots of Wing Chun and gives the student to train and take a look at other systems and he has the opportunity to share experience with others. That had a surely a good sound!

Without having to think a lot I e-mailed to Sifu Benny Meng, the Curator of the VTM, and shortly afterwards we dated for training for a whole week.




Day 1 – 12th Decembre 2004

Finally we got startet! I was a little nervous – I was to meet Sifu Benny Meng and allowed to learn from him. but I was relaxed, too – I already had packed my luggage and we went to Frankfurt in time (if you know me, that you know, that this isn’t too usual for me!). At 11 AM we arrived at the Frankfurt airport. The flight was to start at 2.15 PM, the boarding-time was set to 1.30 PM. After getting some US-Dollars we went to the baggage checking counter.

The airline had bult up some desks right in front of the baggage checking counter. Behind these desks stood four security-officers, that asked „clever“ questions („do you have any weapons with you?“, of course not, „did you receive any luggage of someone unknown to you“, naturally not, „did you receive anything else of someone unknown to you“, you mean, except of the two pieces of paper you gave me???). At the counter I had to open my luggage, but than it was done.

Now quick and get something to eat, it was 12 AM already, and go Borading. And now the drama started! I got into the queue at 12.30 AM – like 500 other people, too! And there were only 4 officers for the security-check! They gave their best, but it took a while, until 500 people put their shoes off and got checked. Of course, they asked some more clever questions and after one hour I was thorugh. So, there was no time to go shopping at the Duty-Free – run for your airplane!

Nothing happened on the flight to Chicago – except of one thing. Right before we did land, there were some very strong turbulences (the Captain mentioned something like wind-speed of 30 mph). Now I know, why they call Chicago the Windy City!

In Chicago the whole drama started again: Waiting for half an hour, answering stupid questions, getting the left and the right index-finger scanned and being fotographed. After one and a half hour I was ready to board again, but we couldn’t take off, because the crew was missing. Half an hour later, the crew arrived und we could go on to Dayton. After 17 hours I finally arrived at 10 PM at my hotel.




Day 2 – 13th Decembre 2004

I got up at 6 AM. Relaxing in my room and having a good breakfast would prepare me for the day. Jeremy gave me the cell-phone-number of Sifu Meng and we dated at 12.00 AM right in front of the hotel. So i had enough timt to prepare mentally by going through all 80 channels on tv.

At 12 AM Sifu Meng came and we talked aboout the plan for the whole week. At the museum I was introduced to Tae, one of his assistants, a very nice guy.

Due to Sifu Meng having to do some office-work, I first watched the video about Siu Nim Tao. Of course, there were some technical details and some principles, that were different. But I decided to ask my questions at a later time, when we got to this points.

Than we got started. First thing: a guidance to the museum and getting some historical knowledge of the evolvement of Ving Tsun. Yip Man had this great idea; a place were all the knowledge of Ving Tsun was collected and were members of the different families could meet, share experiences and train together peacefully. But there never was the opportunity, to make this dream come true. Moy Yat, who lived together with Yip Man for a very long time, shared this idea and talked to Sifu Benny Meng about it. That was the day, when this project was born. But why do the call it „museum“? That’s quiet easy: There would have been the choice to call it „Ip Man Tong“, but that wasn’t possible and it would have let other „non-Yip Man-based styles“ stand outside. But how is place called, that gathers information und does researches? Of course, it’s a museum.

Now to the history of Ving Tsun. The research of Sifu Meng and other masters showed, that Ving Tsun really originates form the Shaolin monastery. Shaolin built up on the „Three Treasures“, which are: Chan-Buddhism, fitness/health and martial arts. The deep understanding in this three arts, that are related to another, led the monks to understanding their self in relation to everything around them in time, space and energy. Of course, they developped their martial art to the highest point of effectiveness.

After northern China being overrun by the Manchu und the northern Shaolin monastery being burned down, some of the monks took refuge in southern China. Some of the remaining and some soldiers worked together with the Manchu, so they achieved the knowledges of the Shaolin monks. That was why there had to be another system, that could „brake“ the Shaolin system. But how do you fight someone, who is already on a high level of effectiveness? First step: That what Sifu Meng calls the „Shift of paradigma“. Before, the monks trained the martial arts just for the sake of martial arts. Now the paradigma shifted to training martial arts to become better fighters. Second step: Enhancing Efficiency. If you can’t do anything more effective, than you have to make it more efficient. If you spend less time, need less room and use less energy than your opponent, that gives a huge advantage over him. That’s how it came to „Economy of motion“.

So that’s it. Ving Tsun is not more effective than other styles – it is more efficient. That’s the big difference!

Than we went on with the development of Wing Chun until Cheung Ng, the first master of this martial art, that is recorded. Sifu Meng emphasized, that until this point, everything was legend. In fact, there are some hints, that Wing Chun was developped earlier, e. g. the hall of everlasting spring at Shaolin.

Now it was time for Siu Nim Tao. In Ving Tsun, there are three Stepps of learning. The first step is the technique. On Siu Nim Tao-level, you learn how movements are built and how to combine the movements of your arms with body-structure. The second step, is to understand the concepts, e. g. centralline, facing, movement on a straight line. The third and last step is principle, a kind of unversal law, that gives the pracitioner control over time, space and energy.

As said, the Siu Nim Tao Sifu Meng showed me, looked nearly the same I already learned. Of course there were some technical differences, e. g. the Huen Sao. Other differences were major, e. g. the position of the forearm when doing a Tan Sao.

At about 7 PM the regular class started. After a short warm-up Sifu Meng introduced me to the class. I was cordially wecomed. It was like being a member of a family!

Training startet with a Pak Sao-drill. Both partners face each other. One punches by tunrs left and right. The other partner warded off with Pak Sao from the outside. The idea was, to hit with the right area of the hand and to train the body-structure and the balance. Than we started with what Sifu Meng called energy-application. First we started redirecting the partners energy by pressing his punch up, to the side or down. You could see very good, how the body-structure of your partner was manipulated as he twisted and turned. After that we commenced with intercepting. Through pressing strong at the partners ellbow at direction of his centerline, his body-structure was so massively disturbed, that he had to step back.

Next step: The Partner was told, not to let his body-structure and his balance brake down be these actions. Good luck, that I already did spend years on that exercise, so I had no problems. At last something that I knew.

The last thing with that drill: Using different techniques instead of Pak Sao, e. g. the Tan Sao, the Bong Sao and the Fook Sao.

On we went with the second Siu Nim tao-drill: The Lap Sap-drill. When pulling at the arm of your partner, he changes his punch into Bong Sao, with which he defends against the at the same time incoming punch. Than he pulls at the punch, changing it into Bong Sao, and punches with his free hand at the same time.

Of course there are some possibilities of changing sides – you don’t want to break contact and sort your arms new. The first and easiest way is a kind of counter-pulling: when your partner pulls at your arm and punches, than you change back form Bong Sao into Lap Sao. Second possibility: Your partner doesn’t punch correctly – he gets contact with your ellbow. Than drop your ellbow, go into Tan Sao and punch with the free hand.

The third possibility is the „plumflower-punching“. Imagine a plumflower with five (wow, I forgot the word! peddals???). The top is straight, the next two, left and right, go a little sideways and the last two go down. Top, clearly, is the straight punch. Tep-left and top-right are attacks with the palm and the Fak Sao. Both with pulling with the other hand, of course. Defense is against the palm an inside-Pak Sao, against the Fak Sao the Wu Sao. The two down stand for punching low and you use the Gaan Sao to defend against these punches. For me, that’s an easy to understand and very nice picture.

The very interesting part was, when Sifu Meng started to explain abput the energetic part. Tan Sao doesn’t mean „palm-up-hand“, it is „dispersing hand“, because it disperses the energy of the attacker. Same with Bong Sao, that flows aroung the energy of the attacker and the Fook Sao, that subdues the incoming energy.




Day 3 – 14th Decembre 2004

Today we spent most of the morning on repeating, what I learned yesterday and doing the Pak Sao- and the Lap Sao-drill. Than we went on with Dan Chi. First we trained the change from Man Sao into Tan Sao, than how to turn with Tan Sao, the right position of Fook Sao and of course Dan Chi.

After several hours, Jeremy gavce me the theoretical explanations once again, because Sifu Meng meant, that it would make sense, if I heard the explanations from a different person. Well, Sifu Meng was right. Jeremy explained to me the idea of technique – concept – principle and he told me about „Saam Mo Kiu“, the three connecting bridges: Wondering – Awareness – Focus. Well, I think, before I got here I was wondering. Now Sifu Meng put me into Awareness and now it was time for me to focus on my problems.




Day 4 – 15th Decembre 2004

Meanwhile my muscles in breast and arm are really sore. Oh my god! All this Pak Sao-drill was killing me!!!

This morning we trainend at a fitness-centre in south Dayton. The fitness-centre was real huge – there even was something like a cinema, where people could train and watch movies (at the moment they showed Star Wars – couldn’t we stay? No? *Sigh*).

Today our goal was to get into Poon Sao. Therefore we started with an exercise called Luk Sao. The question was: Why do we roll? Therefore Sifu Meng divided the whole Poon Sao into different parts, that we started to train. At first, there was the change from Bong Sao into Tan Sao, because the partner started pressing with his Fook Sao. The second step was pressing with Bong Sao against the partners Fook Sao and he subdued the energy by sinking his hand from hi Fook Sao into low Fook Sao. And the last step: To give back the energy one received from the Fook Sao and changing from Bong Soa into Tan Sao with the other hand, your Fook Sao. E. g. right changes form Bong Sao into Tan Sao and your left presses forward.

The energy your partner gets, puts him from his Tan Sao-position into Bong Sao, there again he presses and changes back. Very interesting. I never spent that much thoughts on why we roll. Ok, Fook Sao turn Tan Sao into Bong Sao, I knew that. But somehow this important part got forgotten.

The second important exercise is called Jong Sao. Your partner attacks with a straight punch to the face und you get contact by pushing your Man Sao forward. If his energy is not very strong, you remain in Man Sao. If his energy is too strong, you change into Tan Sao, before getting pressed away from the centerline. Even when your partner presses your arm down, it’s possible to get into Tan Sao, by pushing a Wu Sao up and than changing into Tan Sao.

After the training we did some sightseeing. Sifu Meng showed around in the neighbourhood and we went to the museum of the US Air Force. Over there, nearly every military plan is showed. The exponates started with the plane of the Wright-brothers, who did the first flight, and ended with stealth-bombers and unmaned drones like the „Predator“.

In tonights class wie repeated once again all exercises, starting with the Pak Sao- and Lap Sao-drill, Dan Chi and Luk Sao to Poon Sao.

Of course I did give it a try and used the „being soft and relaxed“ that I learned against my partners. With some partners it worked, but I guess it was just because they weren’t far enough. Well, with the red and the black sashes it didn’t work. The just had to bring their structure forward and my structure collapsed. But I wasn’t mad or frustrated about this – that’s why I was here: to learn the „real“ Wing Chun. And that’s why I was happy, that what Sifu Meng showed me not only worked for him, but for his students as well. For me a very important point!

Well, that night Sifu Meng told me, that he wouldn’t be here the until my depart, because one of his friends married in Las Vegas (I hope you had a fantastic party!!!). But Jeremy, Tae and some of his teachers would help me with my training. Than he asked me, if I’d like him to fully teach me the Yip Man-system and to complete it under him. I accepted gladly and I’m still very honoured. Thank you very much! I think, that I finally found the Sifu, that I will follow.




Day 5 to 9 – 16th to 20th Decembre 2004

The next five days we spent repeating on what I learned before and spent some more time on Chum Kiu. This time, the movement were very different, to what I already learned, but Tae and Jeremy helped me over and over again.

Chum Kiu trains how to combine the movements and the concepts of Siu Nim Tao with body-movement and how to apply more power through this movements. There are four different ways: Moving the body up and down, that is using the tension and the weight, rotating and stepping. Sifu Meng calls the Chum Kiu „Siu Nim Tao on wheels“. Somehow it feels like through the different movements, the Chum Kiu gets somehow closer connected to Siu Nim Tao, than I was used to. It feels more like a unity and it does more sense that way.

Than I had a little training with Chango, a very kind and nice guy (really, it’s not my shoulder going up – it’s my muscles moving! J ). We had a lot of fun.

On sunday at 2 PM Jeremy drove me to the airport – the week was over too fast. I admit, that I was glad getting back home, but on the other hand I was sorry to leave. I learned a lot and I was looking forward to putting that into my daily training.

But I didn’t think about the weather and American Airlines. To be honest, I don’t even want to think about the nightmare of getting home. It started with the flight to Chicago having 1 ½ delay. In Chicago they told us, that we would have to land in New York City to get a new airplan. What was wrong with the current??? In New York we got into a starting blizzard – strong winds, ice and snow. Than we had to wait for hours, boarding, and waiting again until we finally got through the „De-Iceing-Machine“. The flight to Frankfurt was fun! We came into real bad weather – it felt like someone was punching our plane. After all, I came home with nearly five hours delay, not too bad.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, what else can I say? Thanks again for the opportunity and the honour and thanks again for the kindness of you all. Merry christmas to you all and a happy new year!!!


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Armin,
Excellent Review, it is nice to hear that even with all the down time in the airports you were still able to enjoy the experience you set out to do. Although I read your profile I am still unsure about your background. Armin if you would give us some detail about your background and maybe your lineage to better understand your prior experience before the museum visit.

Thanks in advance.

[Armin]

Good morning (over here it's 4.30 AM - and at the moment I'm not able to sleep, amybe to much coffee) Cang Long!

Details about my background. Ok, I'll keep that short: I started in 1991 (until 2000) with Leung Ting Wing Tsun under Sifu Dingeldein and Sifu Altmayer. In 2001 (or was it 2000 - can't remember, too much coffee) I changed to Wong Shun Leung Ving Tsun under Lars Ender (just for 1 year). After that I was "free" and "unbound".

Of course, I have had experiences in other systems, too, but that would take too long now. To take it to a personal level: I am someone, who likes to take look over the fence, and I am always open to new ideas. New in sense of better. I have a deep love for all martial arts systems (the usual "if I had more time"-thing), but for me Ving Tsun is the crown of all. But as I wrote, I felt that something was missing. Well, and I found it at the VTM.


That's it in short!

Armin.

PS: If you like more details, please send me an e-mail - I'll gladly answer all of your questions!

[Cang Long]

Armin,
It is 9pm here and we are just sitting around waitin' on Santa.
That answered the question, Thank you. You say you felt something was missing in your previous training may I ask what that might have been and how is it the museum was able to help you in that regard?

[Armin]

Hi Cang Long!

Than have a nice christmas!!!

Wow, that's one big question! It's hard to express in words, and even harder in english (for me). Let me see. Ving Tsun is supposed to be a very logical, concept- or principle-based system. Sure, your teacher always tells you, that there is this and that concept, and there is this and that principle. But if you take a closer look, it's still more into technique than into concept. You do that Tan Sao against that attack and this Bong Sao against this attack. Somehow it doesn't really make sense. So you start wondering, but your teacher tells you, that you have to train more, than you will surely understand.

Well, I've been training for nearly 14 years and still there was this little voice inside. Nothing got better. To be honest, I wasn't sure what would expect me at the VTM, I just gave it a try. And luckiliy my first shot hit the mark. Sifu Meng could not only explain the concepts in detail and show me the exercises, but he made me understand what it's all about and in some parts I am already able to do it the right way - after one short week of training! Compare that to 14 years of training and having achieved nothing or only small steps in that time.

Somehow it's very different, but it sure makes sense - it's like a jigsaw falling into place by itself. Nothing is missing, everything is right there, where you expect it. It's like I wrote with Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu. What I learned before, somehow it felt like it doesn't belong together. What Sifu Meng showed me surely belonged together. It feels like the same thing, only one time you aren't moving, the other time you move.

Does that make any sense to you?


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Sifu Meng could not only explain the concepts in detail and show me the exercises, but he made me understand what it's all about and in some parts I am already able to do it the right way - after one short week of training! Compare that to 14 years of training and having achieved nothing or only small steps in that time. Armin,
Yes that makes a lot of sense I can relate to that. Did the VTM show you any Hung fa Yi while you were there?

[Armin]

Cang Long,

I got a glimpse of it - we concentrated on Yip Man System. That's enough for the moment. But when I my mind is free again (I'm preparing for an important exam in Octobre 2005 and February 2006), I will have more than a glimpse - if Sifu Meng still wants me as student.

What I did see so far, and what Sifu Meng explained to me, makes me very curious about Hung Fa Yi, and yes I really would like to learn it.

To paint a picture (as far as I understood): Yip Man Ving Tsun is a room in a building and what I saw of Hung Fa Yi was taking a look through a window to the outside.


Armin.

[Cang Long]

What I did see so far, and what Sifu Meng explained to me, makes me very curious about Hung Fa Yi, and yes I really would like to learn it.
Armin,
Well it is a wise man who can set his ego aside after 14 years of training and reach out to others for assistance in gaining more insight and knowledge. You picked a winner when you settled on the Master Meng and the VTM. Congratulations, welcome to the family. When you complete your VTM training you will be very pleased. I look forward to meeting you and sharing and comparing notes someday. All the names you mentioned earlier I have met and was just as delighted in meeting each one as well.

Have you worked with your students yet adn got a response from any of them?

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Armin
What I did see so far, and what Sifu Meng explained to me, makes me very curious about Hung Fa Yi, and yes I really would like to learn it.

To paint a picture (as far as I understood): Yip Man Ving Tsun is a room in a building and what I saw of Hung Fa Yi was taking a look through a window to the outside.



Armin,

Put out feelers. You could wind up walking away with the HFY most valuable asset --"Saam Mor Kiu"


El

[Armin]

Hi!

@ Cang Long:

Yes, we already had some training-sessions, where I I started with them working on Siu Nim Tao, the Pak Sao-Drill and Dan Chi. At first I had the idea of integrating the new knowledge into daily training, but soon I felt it would be better to "restart" from the beginning. Sifu Meng gave me the students-manual. First we'll work that through. As far as I can say, I will return in Octobre next year (and maybe some of my student will join). That will be enough time or on the other hand, there is enough to train.

And what did my students say? At first, they were a little reserved, you might say. But by the end of the week they started understanding, what I taught them and now they are totally convinced. BTW: None of them says something like "but I already learned the whole system, so why should I ...?" They all got the same feelings, that I have and they all appreciate what Sifu Meng taught to me (and in the end taught to them).

@Op108wc:
Hopefully I'm getting to the stage of Focus! But now that I have the help of Sifu Meng and his team, nothing is impossible.


Best wishes,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

And what did my students say? At first, they were a little reserved, you might say. But by the end of the week they started understanding, what I taught them and now they are totally convinced. BTW: None of them says something like "but I already learned the whole system, so why should I ...?" They all got the same feelings, that I have and they all appreciate what Sifu Meng taught to me (and in the end taught to them). Hello
Armin,
Thank you for all your replies this truly is an interesting subject. For the most part it sounds as if your students reacted pretty normal to the situation. I would imagine many are interested in visiting the Museum with you next time as well. Sounds like you have some very good students. Do any of them have any experience besides Yip man WC? Armin, this question you may not want to answer if so I certainly understand but I am curious if you feel the museum is adding to your knowledge of WC or you feel as if you are just beginning to learn WC for the first time?

So Armin, of all this we have discussed can I ask what is the single most important thing the Master Meng or the VTM was able to teach you reteach you or refocus you on?

Thanks again

[Armin]

Cang Long,

yes, some of my students told me, that they want to join next time. But as you know, there's so much time until the next visit, nothing is really fixed. They like to come, if it's possible - well, we'll see.

Well, of course, I will answer your question. No problem with that. Let me see. It's both. As I said, I already learned the things about structure, balance, concepts and so on in some cases. But the technical expression or the application of the theory didn't fit to what I learned. To make that clear, I'll give you an example: We were told to build up a wedge with our arms. If the attackers energy was weaker than the wedge, your were supposed to just go through. If the attackers energy was stronger, than we were supposed to change into Tan Sao, Bong Sao or whatsoever.

But in applying, it was totally different. You didn't even try to hold your structure. If you got in contact, you changed into Tan Sao or Bong Sao, without even proofing your wedge stronger than his energy.

Another example: we were told not to chase the hands, but to go for the centerline. But in application it was more like "if he punches form here do this technique, if he punches in a different angle use this technique, ..." After all, it was clearly a more technical approach.

What was the single most important thing? Wow, your questions get harder and harder!!! For me, there are at least two most important things. First is the theoretical background. How did Ving Tsun evolve and especially why? The second: By refocussing me to the concepts and getting me aware of the principles and of course by giving me some exercises that bridge it all from the forms to application, I think that he put me into place to transfer my "technical knowledge" into "Ving Tsun knowledge".

You can have a lot of different drills and moves. But it's not the technique, it's the concepts behind them, and of course the principles, that makes the techniques "Ving Tsun". Right? At first I thought about how to integrate what he showed me into daily training (I think, that I mentioned that somewhere). Now I think about how to integrate what I already knew into what he showed me. Big difference!

So, in a special way, Sifu Meng gave me a sieve and now I put everything I've learned through that and see what's left.


Best wishes,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

What was the single most important thing? Wow, your questions get harder and harder!!! For me, there are at least two most important things. First is the theoretical background. How did Ving Tsun evolve and especially why? The second: By refocussing me to the concepts and getting me aware of the principles and of course by giving me some exercises that bridge it all from the forms to application, I think that he put me into place to transfer my "technical knowledge" into "Ving Tsun knowledge". Hello
Armin,
So you think Master Meng and the VTM have learned through their study an excellent understanding of not only how and what but why and they incorporated a very good method in training this knowledge they have acquired?You can have a lot of different drills and moves. But it's not the technique, it's the concepts behind them, and of course the principles, that makes the techniques "Ving Tsun". Right? At first I thought about how to integrate what he showed me into daily training (I think, that I mentioned that somewhere). Now I think about how to integrate what I already knew into what he showed me. Big difference! Yes, the difference can be considered big, so you thought about it have you been able to do it and if so how and how has it worked out for you so far?

Does this new information make you excited about your wing chun all over again. Do your students feel the same?

[BennyMeng]

Armin,

First of all, let me say 'thank you' for all your nice comments and feedback from your diary. You shared a similar organizational skill as a VTM representative on assignment with all the details and day-by-day action!

It was nice to meet you in person. And I want to compliment you on taking the action to come in person. Traveling across a continent to study kung fu is not a small task. I hope we've helped you to find what you're looking for in Ving Tsun. We're very happy to have association with you - you're foundation is good, you're intelligent and you're very funny. Most importantly, you have the open-minded spirit which will definitely help your skill and understanding grow.

In the meantime, continue to train hard and good luck with your professional studies.

Have a great New Year, too.

[Armin]

Sifu Meng,

it was my pleasure! I really enjoyed the visit. One of my students and I, we started with "workout" every day this week and we practice hard. It's so much you gave me, we could train for hours and hours!

Me, funny? Yes of course - martial arts is serious business, but it's all about being a human. And it's easier to get a short brake, if your partner is holding his body while he's laughing ;) !


Cang Long,

actually, yes. See, if you know why Ving Tsun was "created" and what makes the difference to other styles, you are able to understand Ving Tsun in a better way.

Over here, most people aren't intersted in history of Ving Tsun. They just know, that there's something like e. g. "economy of motion" and they get into it pretty good, I have to admit. But the research of the VTM shows us, that there has been a good reason to evolve such things and it gives us the understanding of the whole theory. This kind of understanding, based on the research of the VTM, is definitely deeper and it puts the practitioner on a higher level.

And as far as I know, it was the achievement of Sifu Meng and the VTM, to build up a curriculum, that provides the practitioner with the necessary exercises, to transfer the understanding "into movement".

As Sifu Meng stated, first you have to understand, than you can work on putting your understanding into movement. If you have a deeper understanding, your "moves" will have more quality.


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Now to the history of Ving Tsun. The research of Sifu Meng and other masters showed, that Ving Tsun really originates form the Shaolin monastery. Shaolin built up on the „Three Treasures“, which are: Chan-Buddhism, fitness/health and martial arts. The deep understanding in this three arts, that are related to another, led the monks to understanding their self in relation to everything around them in time, space and energy. Hi again,
Armin,
So you find there is value in knowing and understanding the history of Wing Chun (or whatever you may study)? How can you explain the monks understanding after your visit? What was your understanding before your visit?

Thanks again

[Armin]

Cang Long,

yes, there's is knowledge with a certain value in history. But history shouldn't be overrated - it gives you an idea of what to do, and why, when, how and so on, but it can't substitute the expirience you get form daily training or even fighting. Somehow it all belongs together.

And what did I think about the monks? That would really take too much time, so I try to give a short answer. Before I had some experiences due to some training-sessions in Wu Shu and even a (very) small idea of Chan Shaolin Xhu. The monks of Shaolin created a lot of different forms, including all that animal-forms, chi gung-forms, and so on. I had the opportunity of watching a demonstration of real monks of Shaolin, and well, it didn't impress me. They made these fancy movements, showing this drunken monkey-stuff and doing strange applications.

When I trained a little Wu Shu, the first thing that I recognized was, that people mostly misunderstood these forms and their applications. It's not about fighting like an animal. These forms build up special abilities, e. g. to build up a strong stance and body-structure with a tiger-form or to get the practitioner flexible and agile with a leopard-form or unpredictable like a drunken man.

But why should I study a martial art, that doesn't teach you how to fight? That's what Sifu Meng showed me: In Shaolin Gung Fu, as a one of the three treasures, was trained to make body and mind stronger. It was a training "l'art pour l'art". Fighting or self-defence was a part of the training, too. Of course. But it was but one part of the whole thing. The main-goal was to get the body and the mind into unity. And that was achieved by e. g. forcing the body to do these artistic movements.

So, there are good reasons, why and how the monks train. But honestly, this still is not my idea of martial arts, or else I would have quit with Ving Tsun and signed up at the Shaolin-monastery in Berlin :) .

Cang Long wrote:
So you find there is value in knowing and understanding the history of Wing Chun (or whatever you may study)?
What do you mean by "whatever"? At the moment I study Yip Man Ving Tsun - that may change later. But at the moment this system has my whole love and dedication. I try to get an understanding of every part and facette of it. The ultimate goal, of course, is to be a good and versatile fighter. Nothing less. But before getting to this point, I have to fully understand the theory of Ving Tsun, everything about it's principles and concepts and how they are put into movement. How do I gain an advantage in time, space and energy? - by being economic in motion, or else: efficient. But why should I be efficient? Because "the other systems" are already effective - you can't beat that, you can't be more effective. See, how knowledge of history shows it's value in understanding the basic ideas of Ving Tsun?

Maybe, we should divide the term history into "historical events that happened" and "historical evolvement of the art". Does knowing that the first teacher of Yip Man was Chan Wah Shun help me in any way of mastering the art? Of course not. This knowledge is, on the first sight, only interesting in a way of personal curiousity. But will the fact, that Yip Man put the Gaan Sao into the Siu Nim tao, because Wong Shun Leung had big problems in a fight, against someone attacking low, will this fact help me to a deeper understanding? Yes, of course. But only if I understand the theory of the four gates and what the Gaan Sao does, not in a technical way, but in an energetical way.

Sorry, I have to go to work now. I hope I made myself clear(er)!


See you tonight,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

If you spend less time, need less room and use less energy than your opponent, that gives a huge advantage over him. That’s how it came to „Economy of motion“. Hello
Armin,
The above quote was stated very well your english is shining through brightly in that statement! Isn't that statement very true and captures what is the essence of Wing Chun and why so many people are drawn to its study. So do you feel as if Master Meng was able to convey to you how it is that Wing Chun is able to achieve this goal?

[Armin]

Cang Long,

sadly enough, my english is not as good as I like it to be - but speaking to you guys and writing in this forum, it will get better. Hopefully.

Cang Long wrote:
So do you feel as if Master Meng was able to convey to you how it is that Wing Chun is able to achieve this goal?
No, I don't feel like, I'm sure about that. And btw, his teachers and assistants, too.


Greetings,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

No, I don't feel like, I'm sure about that. And btw, his teachers and assistants, too. AAAAAHHHH
Yes, Armin, hello and welcome to my world!!

[Cang Long]

As said, the Siu Nim Tao Sifu Meng showed me, looked nearly the same I already learned. Of course there were some technical differences, e. g. the Huen Sao. Other differences were major, e. g. the position of the forearm when doing a Tan Sao. Armin,
Can you explain your understanding of tan sau before and then your understanding of tan sau after your visit to the VTM.

Thanks, and don't work too hard.

[Armin]

Goog morning Cang Long,

there are two major differences:

1. Technical: Before my visit to the VTM, there were three possible positions of the Tan Sao: one on the centerline, with the whole forearm on the centerline, one on the shoulder-to-shoulder-line and one crossed in front of the of the chest.

The first Tan Sao, the one on the centerline, is used e. g. if you get contact on the outside, to get the arm of the attacker away from the centerline. The second is used, when you are e. g. in Bong Sao and your partner presses in Chi Sao to the outside, than you "switch" your arm into Tan Sao. And the third is used if you get e. g. contact with your right arm on the outside of your partners right arm. Than you turn and your forearm still points to the center of your partner.

Now there's only one Tan Sao, in a technical way: hand and wrist are on the centerline, ellbow between centerline and body-outside.


2. Energetical or conceptual: Before, the Tan Sao was used as a reaction of yielding, like your partner into and you change into a position that get's you out of the direction of his energy.

Now: The Tan Sao is a "technical expression" of "dispersing energy". By using forward energy and of course the position of the forearm, the energy of your partner is "dispersed" or redirected. It's not you going away - you make your partern "go away".


As consequence, there's one big difference: before, we did try to get out of the way of our partners energy - he controlled, where I was going. Now, I control my space and I control where he is going to. As a side-effect, there's one more thing to understand: For controling my own space, I need a totally different body-structure. The body-structure has to support my arms. Before my visit, I already had some ideas of this body-structure, but due to wrong positions of the arms, I wasn't able to support my arm-movements.

Well, I hope, that someday we can meet, maybe than I can show you some of this stuff.


Best wishes and happy new year,

Armin.

[Savi]

Armin,
I am really enjoying your posts and would like to congradulate you on your journey to the VTM. You and I just missed each other! I flew in to train at the VTM on Dec 9 and left on Dec 12 (Thursday through Sunday)! It would have been great to meet with you.

To me, it really sounds like you have made a strong connection in mind and body. As I have heard GM Gee say before, "You have to wake up your body."

Now there's only one Tan Sao, in a technical way: hand and wrist are on the centerline, ellbow between centerline and body-outside.

This tells me that you have identified with the width component of hand and elbow alignment, but what about heighth and depth? How far does the Tan Sau extend and how high should the hand be?

I like what you said about the "NOW" part in your post, but I would like to know how this impacts the other 3 Tan Sau you learned before. Are you still going to "use" them, or is this new Tan Sau going to replace them all?

[Armin]

Hello hfysavi,

man, that's sad - it would have been nice to meet you!

Hm, a high and a low Tan Sao. If you take a look at the Siu Nim Tao, there's only a high Tan Sao. And if you take another look at the Siu Nim Tao, than you recognize, that the ellbow is 1 1/2 to 2 fists away from your body.

For me, that's only technical expression. An expression for dispersing incoming energy. Let me see, if I can get this straight. Tan Sao stands for the idea to disperse the energy of the attacker by using the body-structure and the position of the forearm. "The" Tan Sao in Siu Nim Tao is only a, "explanation-example". Can there be another position, higher or lower? Of course - it depends on your contact.

It's like the redirecting or intercepting thing with Pak Sao - one technique serves both kinds of dealing with energy. I feel, that having only one technical expression for a way of dealing with energy would be too unflexible and would mean a step back into using technigue and not concepts.

Sifu Meng told me, that Tan Sao means "dispersing hand", Bong Sao "flowing hand" and Fook Sao "subdueing hand". But it's not about the technique - it's about how you react to the energy of your partner. Therefore, as far as I understood, it even could be possible to change the technique and use the same way of dealing with the energy, e. g. to "flow" with Tan Sao or to "disperse" with Bong Sao.

But for me, this is still too technical. Tan Sao, Bong Sao or Fook Sao are just names. Names for a position of hand and ellbow - if the hand (or the wrist) is on the centerline and the ellbow is higher than the hand, than it's a Bong Sao. If the hand is higher than the ellbow and the palm looks upward, than it's a Tan Sao. No matter at which hight you put the whole thing. The big difference is what you do with your arm - you can disperse the energy, you can flow araound it, cou can subdue it, or choke it or stop it, or ... or ... or ..., but it's not a matter of how you hold your arm.

hfysavi wrote:
How far does the Tan Sau extend and how high should the hand be?
You mean, where does Tan Sao stop? It depends on the position of the hand of the attacker. If his position is good, than my Tan Sao will stop at the boundaries of my space. If his position is bad, my Tan Sao will go on and will attack. You may say, that the Tan Sao is changed into a punch or else. But it's only an outside change - in the inside it's still forward energy to the centerline, that now attacks the centerline.

And how high should the hand be? As high as needed to defend my centerline. But not higher than my head - there's nothing above to defend ;) .

hfysavi wrote:
I like what you said about the "NOW" part in your post, but I would like to know how this impacts the other 3 Tan Sau you learned before. Are you still going to "use" them, or is this new Tan Sau going to replace them all?
In a technical way: yes. Sure, the positions of hand and ellbow change, but now, there's another idea behind the whole thing. If these other 3 Tan Sao fit into the idea of what I described above, why shouldn't I use them? I think, the concepts and later on the principles will give me something like a "technical freedom". It's movement and energy, or if you like: time, space and energy. In the end, there can be millions of technical expressions - why limit them to only one single position of hand and ellbow?

Sorry, once again a lot of text!


Best wishes for the new year,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

The energy your partner gets, puts him from his Tan Sao-position into Bong Sao, there again he presses and changes back. Very interesting. I never spent that much thoughts on why we roll. Ok, Fook Sao turn Tan Sao into Bong Sao, I knew that. But somehow this important part got forgotten. Hello Armin,
This is very interesting can you explain in more detail your thoughts about all of this.

[Armin]

Cang Long,

Cang Long wrote:
This is very interesting can you explain in more detail your thoughts about all of this.
Do you mean "before" and "after" again? Hm, well, I'll try to keep it short, at first. I'm sure, there will be more answers, giving the opportunity to go more into details.

In Leung Ting WT, there was the idea, that you have e. g. contact with your Fuk Sao (left) from the outside of his (right) Tan Sao. You keep something like a basis-forward-pressure. Than you start by pressing stronger and he changes Tan Sao into Bong Sao. Than it's his turn to press stronger with his Fuk Sao and at the same time you stop pressing stronger (going back into "basis-forward-pressure"), which leads him at the same time form Bong Sao into Tan Sao.

You may call that the "Leung Ting WT Luk Sao" and it was taught to students in the way I wrote. But later on, when getting more and more into the first section of chi sao, it was more like "getting the hands together and start rolling" - actually, the people were meant to change pressure (or energy) when rolling, but even very high ranked teachers had no remarkable change in energy. They just did rolling movements and incorporated other programmed movements.

Now, that's what Sifu Meng taught me: there has to be a reason for rolling - you get the answer through Luk Sao. That's why you roll, changing energy, redirecting energy and giving back energy, you receive from your partner. But when you train Poon Sao, or Chi Sao, there still should be, what Luk Sao is training for.

Somehow, we always come back to the question "why", right? :D

What Sifu meng showed to me, there's always somethign like a red line. It takes you from A to B and on to C and so on. You can always say, how something evolves and where it comes from and why it has to be that way.

Before that, once again, you had this exercise, than you had another and another. But the exercises didn't really fit together - there were too many questions left.

BTW: please, don't get me wrong! I enjoyed what I learned before and I got some kind of good fighter. And I still have good memories for my teachers and training-partners. After all, I found my way - other people follow other ways, that's fine for me and I surely don't try to "missionize" people to my way!!!


Greetings,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

Good day!
Armin,BTW: please, don't get me wrong! I enjoyed what I learned before and I got some kind of good fighter. And I still have good memories for my teachers and training-partners. After all, I found my way - other people follow other ways, that's fine for me and I surely don't try to "missionize" people to my way!!! Again well said.


After several hours, Jeremy gavce me the theoretical explanations once again, because Sifu Meng meant, that it would make sense, if I heard the explanations from a different person. Well, Sifu Meng was right. Jeremy explained to me the idea of technique – concept – principle and he told me about „Saam Mo Kiu“, the three connecting bridges: Wondering – Awareness – Focus. Well, I think, before I got here I was wondering. Now Sifu Meng put me into Awareness and now it was time for me to focus on my problems. Armin, do you have a new or more clear understanding of technique-concept-principle after your visit? What is your understanding of Saam Mo Kiu and do you find it useful in your training?

[Armin]

Cang Long,

thanks!

Cang Long wrote:
Armin, do you have a new or more clear understanding of technique-concept-principle after your visit? What is your understanding of Saam Mo Kiu and do you find it useful in your training?
Hm, in some parts I was showed, the concepts were the same, e. g. two parts work together as one. Some concepts were different, e. g. how to react on contact and what to do with the energy of the attacker.

As far as I'm now, I'd say that what I learned before was more technical than conceptional. That's what it made it easy for me, to learn the "technical part" very fast. But to "change" the concepts is harder. I have ot work on that - I know what I should do, so I'm aware of the problem and I', working on it, that keeps me focussed.

And for principle, well, in some (very few) moments I get an idea of it, but it's slippery like a fish.

For me, Saam Mo Kiu, at the first hand, is a "concept of teaching" or "getting taught". At first I had no idea what would happen at the VTM, what I would be learning and how it would influence my daily training. Sifu Meng and his assistants showed me "what it's all about" and how to get there. And now I have to do the work and get to the goal.

After all, Saam Mo Kiu, seen that way, is a model of how we learn. You need someone to show you the way, than you need him to give the tools you need to you, you need to achieve the goal and finally you need this one to guide you the way.

As I said, that's my understanding, at the moment. I'm sure, there's more to it - I still work on it.


Best wishes,

Armin.

[Hungman]

After all, Saam Mo Kiu, seen that way, is a model of how we learn. You need someone to show you the way, than you need him to give the tools you need to you, you need to achieve the goal and finally you need this one to guide you the way.



The full name for Saam Mo Kiu is Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu. (The Heaven, Human, Earth concepts of HFYWCK)

[Armin]

Hello Hungman,

Hungman wrote
The full name for Saam Mo Kiu is Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu. (The Heaven, Human, Earth concepts of HFYWCK)

Is there more than one Heaven, Human, Earth concept? As far as I understood, this concept can be the different "gates" you defend (upper, mid and lower gate) and in can be as well the distance to the enemy - Heaven is kicking range, Earth is throw and ground range, Human is the distance in between, where the human body has most posibilities of attack. And isn't it related to technique - concept - principle, too?

Isn't the idea of the whole thing, that you start form a foundation, earth/techique/whatever, than you bridge the "gap" (if there's one) to human with the SMK, than you bridge it again with SMK to heaven? As a materialist (at this time of the morning), I see a description of learning-processes and how to achieve the set goals. Right?


Best wishes,

Armin.

[Savi]

From what very little I know, Tin Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu philosophy extends beyond our awareness of the physical dimensions.

I can't really elaborate any further on it yet. I'm still learning...

[Cang Long]

Hello Armin,
How is your training progressing and what exactly are you and your students concentrating on at this point in time?

[Armin]

Hi Cang Long!

At the moment I'm training two different ways. In regular class we concentrate on Siu Nim Tao, the Pak Sao-drill, Dan Chi and Luk Sao. We focus on structure, balance, facing, flexibility, etc. - all the concepts of SNT.

At the same time, in private training with a student of mine, we work on the Lap Sao-drill, basic Poon Sao and of course Chum Kiu.

How to describe at what point I am / we are? My students understand the basic ideas and what we want to achieve with the exercises we are doing - they have to, I told them often enough ;) . Yet, some of them have big problems with e. g. adjusting the positions and the structure. They know why and how, but it's hard for them to let old habits go. So we take it easy, make small steps and repeat it again and again.

How to express that? See, what we did before, is not necessarilly wrong, but sometimes it's hard for my students to understand, why they should try a different way. It worked before, why not now? They are open to everything and they like what they are doing now, but sometimes ... Hm, best way - example: the Pak Sao-drill. Especially one of my students had big problems with this drill, because every time he was supposed to do something he moved and acted like in sparring. Every time I asked him, why he did something, he said "I could have been hit". And every time I had to tell him, that this is a drill for basic attributes and not for fighting.

To be true, there are days where I'd like to stand in front of a wall and hit it with my head - as hard as possible. But I have to understand, that not every one learns as fast as I do and not every one is able to "change direction" immediately.

But as I said: when needed, we do small steps to make it easier to learn.


Greetings,

Armin.

[Cang Long]

Armin,
Thanks for the update it's always good to hear and maybe get a small sense of how others are training and just how that training is progressing it seems we can learn so much from sharing this information again thank you.

[Armin]

Hi Cang Long,

again you are right - there is so much to learn and even just by taking a look at how and what others train!


Armin.