Hung Gar and Chi Sim Weng Chun ?

[Firehawk3]

I here that Hung Gar is similar to Chi Sim Weng Chun in what ways is Hung Gar similar to Chi Sim Weng Chun is it body structure ? Does not Hung Gar also have Kui Sao bridge work ? Or is it in the forms ?

[Andreas Hoffman]

Dear Firehawk3,

weng chun is an "internal" style. Our Ging and training method (chi sao) is totally different from modern Hung Ga s. Weng Chun is same to Wing Chun and simillar to Tai Chi/Bagua and Hsing I than to modern Hung Gar.

Weng chun teach 3rd line chisao (throwing, locking etc.) and Kamna - this confuse people and they think this looks like Hung Gar shape, because we are using "Sei Peng Ma" etc. But we are using these skills only with the "Power" of our partner and within our "chisao" method.

Historically there was a connection between wing/weng chun and Hung Gar. For example is old Hung Ga also a conceptual style and teach 12 Kiu Sao concepts not techniques. Weng Chun teach 18 Kiu Sao and 6 and an half principles.

These are some thoughts from my vacation

[Firehawk3]

Thanks again GrandMaster Hoffman i understand now .

[Firehawk3]

So old style Hung Ga is different then Wong Fei Hung Hung Gar , and they use twelve kui Sau , what are some other differences between old Hung Gar and Wong fei Hung Hung Gar and Chi Sim Weng Chun ? This i find very interesting .

[Firehawk3]

I forgot to ask you if you have ever seen or herd of a old style Hung Ga called Hay Sa Fu Hung Gar or Four lower Tigers Red Clan? Sifu Wing Lam practices this system it uses the five animals and uses the Yee Gee Kim Yung ma Goat stance that Wing Chun uses and the forms are short like Wing Chun .

[SupYeeKiuSau]

Hello GM Hoffman,
RE:
"Our Ging and training method (chi sao) is totally different from modern Hung Ga s. Weng Chun is same to Wing Chun and simillar to Tai Chi/Bagua and Hsing I than to modern Hung Gar."

After seeing your DVD on Saam Bai Fat, I can agree. The emphasis as far as the ging an other things is entirely different.

"Weng chun teach 3rd line chisao (throwing, locking etc.) and Kamna..."

We also have Kum Na Sau; specifically Sahp Bat Fu Jow Kum Na Sau and Fu Jow Soy Yuet Faat.

"...this confuse people and they think this looks like Hung Gar shape, because we are using "Sei Peng Ma" etc. But we are using these skills only with the "Power" of our partner and within our "chisao" method."

This is an interesting point. For the uninitiated it is very easy to confuse similarity of shape between styles as a similarity in ging, usage, flavor, etc. For instance, both Hung Ga and Wing Chun (red boat era) have tan, bong and fook, yet the usage, flavor, feeling and ging used is entirely different. Similar appearance, but different taste.

"...old Hung Ga also a conceptual style and teach 12 Kiu Sao concepts not techniques..."

The orthodox (modern) Hung Ga retains the 12 bridge concept; it is only the lack of understanding of many Hung Ga practitioners that lends weight to the misconception that the Sahp Yee Ji Kiu Sau are merely physical shapes only. Part of the misconception comes from the lanugage/culture barrier; some things just don't readily translate cleanly from one language to the other. Hence in the martial body language if you will, the 12 are looked at as 'nouns' (something you have) as opposed to 'verbs' (something you do). Our bridge principles apply to anything that represents a connection to the enemy, from the bridge arm to the mind/attention itself.

Regards,
SYKS

[Firehawk3]

Tell more about Red Boat Hung Gar having tan,bong,and fook tell more about Red Boat Hung Gar ?

[SupYeeKiuSau]

Hi Firehawk,

I'm not sure what you mean by 'Red Boat Hung Ga.' If what you mean is Hung Ga as may have been practiced by Hung Suen members, then your guess is as good as mine.

Even in the Hung Ga circles there is debate as to whether the "narrow horse/short bridges" came before the "wide horse/long bridges", or vice versa, or both came and evolved together, with some emphasizing one over the other in subsequent generations. I think that the fact of Chi Sim WC's existence is a vote for the "both evolved together" category.

My example of tan, bong and fook existing in Hung Ga was not to reference Hung Ga as practiced during the Red Boat era, but in this modern time. I mentioned 'Red Boat era Wing Chun' to be respectful, as there are many people on this board that can speak with authority on the other Wing Chun lines. Nevertheless, Wing Chun of all lines, as well as Hung Ga, has tan, bong and fook. The keys are in the understanding of the words used. For instance, in both WC and HG 'tan' means to spread out evenly/disperse, 'fook' means to subdue, etc. The word used represents the desired objective, and yet each (WC and HG) have their own unique way(structure, flavor, ging, etc.) of reaching that objective. It is not as easily seen in the shapes of the techniques, more easily seen in their performance, and ultimately and more completely realized via direct contact experience.

Further, in the early days of these styles, the names of the styles weren't so important. As per Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie and others' research, the names really told of the practitioners political affiliations, and not stylistic differences. There is strong evidence that the names WC and HG had been used interchageably during this period because of this. In later times when the styles as current military science fell into disuse as such, the names gathered more importance as tools to keep interest and ensure survival.

Think about it this way; today's US soldier is trained to use the M-16 assault rifle, among other weapons. Yet there is no such thing as the "Ft. Benning style" of M-16 usage, or the "Lackland AFB style", etc. Yet if and when a leap in military paradigms occurs, and the M-16 as well as, say, the practice of hurling lead projectiles in warfare becomes obsolete, and people want to then preserve the science of M-16 knowledge and usage, then you might see "names/styles" pop up to describe a particular seargent or commanding officer's method of imparting this skill.

Training is concerned with process; combat is concerned only with result.


Regards,
SYKS

[Firehawk3]

There was a guy on Kung Fu Online a couple years ago that said he seen these books in chinese on Red Boat Hung Gar the guy was from Canada it might have been Kung Lek or this guy named Paul who had a strange last name but these books on Red Boat Hung Gar came from China and the guy in Canda said he seen the books in some chinese martial arts shop . have you ever herd of these books ?