TWC Vs. Monk

[Cang Long]

Originally posted by Redmond Sifu on KFO.

Shaolin Information Exchange Session...
It was during the TWC tour to the Shaolin Temple last year. Cheung Sifu and some TWC people went to the Shaolin Temple. There was supposed to be a private sparring match between the TWC guys and the monks. Word got back to our guys hotel room that the monks were going to change the plans and spar in public and try to show the WC guys up. There was tension the day of the event. Shannon Moore didn't know of the plans because his hotel room was away from the others.
During a demonstration by the Monks Sifu Shannon Moore asked how they dealt with random multiple attacks. Moore wanted to try out one of the students in a "friendly" manner because he felt the tension in the room. It seems as though the younger monks were pretty arrogant.
The head fighting Abbot said that he would demonstrate with Moore instead of the students. Anyway, Shannon Moore smacked the monk in the face twice with a lauh sau/pak. The monk then tried to grab Shannon's hands you'll hear Sifu (William Cheung) yell out stop . . stop... sit down to Shannon. He didn't want the incident to escalate. Sifu (Cheung) then says he's sorry to the monk. The monk was pretty embarrased after all the bragging about how good Shaolin kung fu was. To save face the monk then commences to tell the audience what he "could" have done to Shannon. So he has Shannon stand perfertly still with his arms down then he does a slapping move to Shannon's face. Shannon did nothing because he didn't want to cause an incident plus he didn't want to make Sifu mad. I've asked Sifu Shannon Moore's permission to post these.
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/moore_monk1.MPG
http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/moore_monk2.MPG
PR

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=578871#post578871



what do you think about his?

[Savi]

Since the videos do not include the dialogue prior to the engagement, I cannot wholey accept Redmond Sifu's explanation.

Just based on the first video, I cannot identify with what most people have been saying; that TWC looks similar to HFY. I did not see any Wing Chun structure or applications using WC structure.

Sifu Shannon did strike the Abbot several times, but why was he retreating the whole time, even whilst striking?

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Sihing on KFO
I viewed the video many times and to me he was IMO off balance for a moment, when he retreated after that first attack. Yes I will admit that he moved quite well for a large person, but I find it funny that although he outweighed by at least 100+lbs the Head Monk, the monk never retreated once. And who knows, maybe the monk was holding back too, we'll never know.
James


Originally posted by Victor on KFO

Actions speak much louder than words.


Hi everyone,

Everyone knows what it is like to feel things directly. But the point is to look properly.

See the details:
1)The monk never retreated once.
2)The monk then tried to grab Shannon's hands you'll hear Sifu (William Cheung) yell out stop . . stop...

Look! Open your eyes. Don't blink, and look, look further.

This is your world!!! See anything?


Pete

[Savi]

You're right Pete, the Monk never backed away. I'd like to know more about TWC's foundational principles. I do not identify any universal WC principles apparent in Moore Sifu's actions. Hopefully someone here can expand on TWC's principles?

[sihing]

Originally posted by Savi
Since the videos do not include the dialogue prior to the engagement, I cannot wholey accept Redmond Sifu's explanation.

Just based on the first video, I cannot identify with what most people have been saying; that TWC looks similar to HFY. I did not see any Wing Chun structure or applications using WC structure.

Sifu Shannon did strike the Abbot several times, but why was he retreating the whole time, even whilst striking?

I don't understand it either Savi, and like I said on the KFO forum the video of Shannon and the Head Monk was not a representation of TWC at all IMO. Allot of the stuff they put out on video on that forum is not good TWC IMO also, they move mechanically and with no intention in there movements, like they are trying to use the concepts or strategies just for the reason that they are there to use, instead of using them when needed (e.g. using 3 movements when only 1 is needed).

IMO opinion the are similarities between HFY and TWC or at least the WC I practice in form and concept, but of course each art is separate and not exactly the same as I am no expert of HFY, and have still not have had the pleasure to see any video clips of HFY in action.

What I still don't understand is why the whole situation ended up the way it did? Why would the junior monks be upset with the TWC people there and want to spar with them anyways? And when the pre arranged sparring match between the 4 TWC guys and 4 Shaolin Monks wasn't happening, why did Shannon Moore have to get up and prove his point? Was he feeling insecure about what the monks were demonstrating? If so then he isn't too confident in his method or skills, but we will never know for sure. Another thing I find funny is how all the TWC guys on the KFO forum are all supportive of Shannon Moore and proclaiming his actions as perfectly justified, then why was there Chief GM Cheung so upset with Moore? Funny people sometimes they are.


James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Savi
You're right Pete, the Monk never backed away. I'd like to know more about TWC's foundational principles. I do not identify any universal WC principles apparent in Moore Sifu's actions. Hopefully someone here can expand on TWC's principles?

Savi, here is a link to one of GM Cheung's older websites, http://www.cheungswingchun.com/WWCKFAindex.html , it has allot of info on what the foundation principals are, and some movie clips also.

The basic idea as I understand TWC, is efficiency and economy of movement with the balance weighted 50/50, and always the use of both arms at the same time. TWC uses the Central Line Theory which is different from the Centerline Theory. Basically the Central Line Theory means always having use of both arms against your opponent. You have a Defensive Centerline and an Offensive Centerline, always in operation. Lateral movement is always the preferred way to go with the practitioner trying to flank his opponent by using the Blindside Theory, which means that it's better to position one's self to the side of the opponent in a optimum position of space relative to the opponents arms and foot, so that he can use his two arms against the opponents one arm regardless if this is outside or inside of the lead arm, allowing greater chance of success for his weapons to hit/lock/disslove etc.. The footwork and stances are similar to what I have seen and read about in HFY, with our side neutral stance in use at the non contact stage, (side neutral is both feet slightly wider than shoulder length apart, heels in line with one another and the feet/knees/hips/shoulder pointed on a 45 deg. angle depending on which arm is lead, if right arm is lead the direction of angle would be left, 50/50 weighted balance). Forward Intention is a critical concept in the WC I use, which basically means that my arms will have a static "spring loaded" type pressure in them that is directed towards my opponents center (think of a Dam and the pressure the water puts against the Dam wall, it is constant and where ever you punch a hole in the dam is where the water will seep through). With this in place and once contact is made with the opponents limbs it is very hard to either strike us or move our guards Man/Wu sao, as the contact reflexes take over and allow us to interpret our opponents movements quicker. TWC may not employ this concept as much as my Sifu advocates, as we do many things different from what GM Cheungs does. For more info please read some of the previous posts on this forum or visit the website above, or my association’s website, www.wingchun-canada.com .


James

[Hungman]

Originally posted by sihing
TWC may not employ this concept as much as my Sifu advocates, as we do many things different from what GM Cheungs does.


Sihing,

Everything depends on how you do it. It is like a miracle of nature both because of its mystery *Hung Suen WCK* and for its usefulness *Victor's contribution*.

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor1.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor2.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor3.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor4.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor5.mov

In heaven all is bliss. On earth, we stand between so many Huen Suen WCK lineages "Chi Sim, TWC, HFY, Yik Kam, Pam Nam, YKS, Yip Man, Leung Kong-Moon, Yiu Choi, Mai Gai Wong...etc", and therefore share everything.


Pete:cool:

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Savi
You're right Pete, the Monk never backed away.


Savi,

That's my point. Imo, the monk knows how to play the card of truth -- "No matter how the wind howls, the mountain cannot bow to it";)


Pete

[Hungman]

Originally posted by sihing
What I still don't understand is why the whole situation ended up the way it did? Why would the junior monks be upset with the TWC people there and want to spar with them anyways? And when the pre arranged sparring match between the 4 TWC guys and 4 Shaolin Monks wasn't happening, why did Shannon Moore have to get up and prove his point? Was he feeling insecure about what the monks were demonstrating? If so then he isn't too confident in his method or skills, but we will never know for sure. Another thing I find funny is how all the TWC guys on the KFO forum are all supportive of Shannon Moore and proclaiming his actions as perfectly justified, then why was there Chief GM Cheung so upset with Moore? Funny people sometimes they are.


Canglong, what do you think about this?

[Cang Long]

I think I find it hard to conceive the thought of Moore Sifu doing anything of his own accord with Grand Master Cheung standing right there directing the show. Secondly I 'm not sure if Grand Master Cheung is upset with Moore Sifu or disappointed. I do know for a fact that if you watch the video you see one thing and if you listen to the explanation you hear something entirely different than what you see.

[Savi]

As I understand it, looking at the video really shows me that Moore Sifu presented more of a 'light sparring' approach when he engaged the monk. But how many people have considered the disposition of the monk? Redmond Sifu's explanation only presented the perspective from the TWC group. Let's take a look at some different angles of perspective.

I have seen many documentaries on Shaolin monks who demonstrate their ability to take strikes to the body without getting affected at all; sometimes not moving a single inch. Usually that is a demonstration of superior chi gung and their ability to take punishment. In the case of the video, did you see the monk ever acknowledge the slaps and strikes he received? Did he pause or hesitate at all when he got struck? Or did he maintain his focus and press forward? I never saw the monk lose his center of gravity throughout the footage. Yet Moore was on a continual retreat. What does this say?

Many people may be impressed by the footage of Moore Sifu slapping the monk in the face. But if you understand from a cultural POV, the monk may have had the initial disposition of allowing the guy to strike him first, for reasons in the above paragraph. However, a slap in the face is considered to be more of an insult and especially in the case of Moore's "light sparring" presentation. A post from KFO also points this out:

Originally posted by Shaolin Fist at KFO

I'm Sure Sifu moore is a nice and humble guy but what has been described in my opinion doesn't match what i see.

Firstly when someone spars in this fashion, i.e strike and quickly jump back, then its just like point scoring. Or one is respectful of the opponent and gets out after a hit as quick as possible, but the distance retreated is more like TKD sparring as one is wary of long range kicks. There is no way after the slap that Shannon could have continued the attack as he was already on the retreat which explains the high intensity of the slap, a forward or advancing slap doesn't feel or sound the same as the energetics are slightly different and it is obvious to an expereinced eye. An advancing slap is less of a 'slap' and is more controlled as its more of a strike, and is more closer to a palm strike and can be placed on an opponent with speed and control with the softest of touch (if desired) as the slap works on 'exposed angle' so there is not usually any resistance or obstructions.

I heard of one match that Bruce Lee had back in Hong Kong. Bruce Lee always maintained the focus of "honestly expressing yourself". No matter the circumstance, even he knew that your first move MUST BE REAL. The match that Bruce Lee fought in back in Hong Kong was against another larger Mongolian guy, and he knocked the guy out with his first punch. He had always stayed true to his sense of being real. This 'warrior' mindset is also consistent and understood through most of the martial community, including the Shaolin monks. In the case of the video, I think we are looking at two people with two different cultural realities.

Knowing this perspective, what is a slap in the face really conveying? That the slap could have been a real hit? Or that you don't understand the idea of "honestly expressing yourself"? Just because you may be able to land a few strikes against a Shaolin monk doesn't prove anything. The monk never backed away and put Moore on the defensive just by pressing his forward focus. And based on the video, Moore Sifu's actions immediately following the slaps show no intention/indication of his ability to capitalize on his attacks because of his continuous retreats.

Even some of the most famous fighters in history, like Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson, may have never landed the first couple of strikes in their bouts. However, most often that is overlooked because of who wins the fights. In boxing bouts, they may go 9 - 12 rounds. Ali took hundreds of hits, yet the point is WHO finishes the fight?

Looking at the video again, ask yourself who was really in control? When the monk captured Moore Sifu's hands and Cheung Sifu called out "Stop Stop Stop!", to whose benefit was it? Who was really in control and pressing his advantage?

I'm not trying to take away anything from Moore Sifu, but how many people have really considered the monk's point of reference?

[Savi]

Originally posted by sihing

IMO opinion the are similarities between HFY and TWC or at least the WC I practice in form and concept, but of course each art is separate and not exactly the same as I am no expert of HFY, and have still not have had the pleasure to see any video clips of HFY in action.

James You can buy a video of the 10th anniversary celebration from Kung Fu Qigong Magazine (http://www.martialartsmart.net/dvdca108.html). In this video/dvd there is footage of HFY being demonstrated in it.

The price is about $20.

[Savi]

Originally posted by sihing
The basic idea as I understand TWC, is efficiency and economy of movement with the balance weighted 50/50, and always the use of both arms at the same time. TWC uses the Central Line Theory which is different from the Centerline Theory. Basically the Central Line Theory means always having use of both arms against your opponent. You have a Defensive Centerline and an Offensive Centerline, always in operation.I can interpret this in a couple of ways (to me, C/L Theory demands the availability of both arms), but I believe HFY identifies this necessity through methods of facing by our Deui Ying/Jeui Ying Concept.
Originally posted by sihing
Lateral movement is always the preferred way to go with the practitioner trying to flank his opponent by using the Blindside Theory, which means that it's better to position one's self to the side of the opponent in a optimum position of space relative to the opponents arms and foot, so that he can use his two arms against the opponents one arm regardless if this is outside or inside of the lead arm, allowing greater chance of success for his weapons to hit/lock/disslove etc.. This is one difference in comparison to HFY. There is no Blindside Theory that exists in HFY. What dictates whether we need to be inside or outside is based on the energy exchange upon contact. That focus is trained through Loi Lau Hoi Sung in HFY.
Originally posted by sihing
The footwork and stances are similar to what I have seen and read about in HFY, with our side neutral stance in use at the non contact stage, (side neutral is both feet slightly wider than shoulder length apart, heels in line with one another and the feet/knees/hips/shoulder pointed on a 45 deg. angle depending on which arm is lead, if right arm is lead the direction of angle would be left, 50/50 weighted balance). This is also a big difference (in my eyes) in how we operate with what you identify as "Side Neutral Stance". In appearance, they may look similar, yes. However in HFY, that stance has a specific angle within the stance that is defined by our Sup Ming Dim Concept (formula). When using the Leung Yi Ma footwork, we lift our knee specifically to the Yin Line before repositioning our horse. This fundamental difference affects the alignment of the hips, knees and whole body facing achieving a different angle than just shifting the horse or turning the waist side to side.

So the static posture may look similar, but the function of it is the difference.
Originally posted by sihing
TWC may not employ this concept as much as my Sifu advocates, as we do many things different from what GM Cheungs does. For more info please read some of the previous posts on this forum or visit the website above, or my association’s website, www.wingchun-canada.com.


James Thank you for all the links James. I much appreciate it!

PS: I think that comparison discussions won't really get too far. But I wanted to acknowledge your commentary. Thank you for sharing more of the wisdoms within TWC. They are educational. :)

[sihing]

As you know also, it's difficult to convey a physical disipline on a internet forum. It would be great to meet up someday and exchange ideas and learn more about one another, as I am eager to witness HFY Wing Chun in action. The May event may be out for me due to financial constraints and distance to the event from Calgary, San Fransico is much closer.

James

[JamesHFYofAZ]

I can view the monk, I want to see the munk! Error says i have the wrong syntexs or something. Anyone!!?:( :confused:
I was able to view the victor footage. Yeah!

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Savi

This is one difference in comparison to HFY. There is no Blindside Theory that exists in HFY. What dictates whether we need to be inside or outside is based on the energy exchange upon contact. That focus is trained through Loi Lau Hoi Sung in HFY.


Savi,

I agree!

Should it be inside or outside? The TWC Blindside Theory Vs The HFY Gurk Jong Theory. So the static posture and some principles may look similar to our two lineages. Could it also look similar to other wing chun lineages as well? There is some principle of magic in everything. However, we need to look further in order to understand -- "what is The HFY Gurk Jong Theory?". That focus is trained through methods of facing by our Deui Ying/Jeui Ying Concept. Three types of Gurk Jong exist in HFY.

(1) Life and Death
(2) Half point
(3) Human Gate


Pete

[Savi]

Originally posted by Hungman
However, we need to look further in order to understand -- "what is The HFY Gurk Jong Theory?". That focus is trained through methods of facing by our Deui Ying/Jeui Ying Concept. Three types of Gurk Jong exist in HFY.

(1) Life and Death
(2) Half point
(3) Human Gate


Pete Thank you Hungman! You've reminded me of a discussion I had with GM Gee. He has given me a brief lesson about this a couple of weeks ago!

(1)Is it referred to as "Life and Death" or "Live and Dead"?

GM Gee pointed out that the HFY Gerk Jong Theory (Sang Sei Gwan Faat) is pointed out in the MKF book within the HFY Wooden Dummy and Weapons chapter. Unfortunately, the book doesn't expand on this particular Sam Faat (nature).

(2) Half Point refers to Buhn Yuet Ma Concept correct?

(3) Can you elaborate on the Human Gate concept?

Actually, I'm going to copy this into the HFY Forum. It would probably be more appropriate to post this information there, being HFY specific and all.

Thanks!

[JimH]

I did not see any WC in the exchange. I did see one determined Monk closing on Moore with intent.

Was that GM Cheung in white out on the floor? It looks like him a little. If so then the voice off camera was whose?

Originally posted by Hungman

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor1.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor2.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor3.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor4.mov

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/victor5.mov


Hungman:

Interesting clips.

In the first couple of vids here it seems that Victor does some WC but as the partner disengages he tackles him and converts to wrestling each time, if I may ask - why?

In the last couple of vids it seems that Victor is boxing, as in Western Style and not using any WC that I can see, again if I may inquire: What is the purpose of such training?

Thanks,

Jim

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Is this called well rounded training? I've seen many schools take this route of training, they get into the grappling, boxing, and even TKD (high kicking). This type of training kinda makes me think about who's doing the discovering and how. Let me elaborate a little, If one trains grappling to use then one is not looking at how to defeat it, if one trains to counter or take away the ability to grapple then they are still sticking to their true WC nature of one learning to counter others. Just one thought!
I still wish I could see the Monk vs moore. O well!

[Hungman]

Originally posted by JimH
Hungman:

Interesting clips.

In the first couple of vids here it seems that Victor does some WC but as the partner disengages he tackles him and converts to wrestling each time, if I may ask - why?

In the last couple of vids it seems that Victor is boxing, as in Western Style and not using any WC that I can see, again if I may inquire: What is the purpose of such training?

Thanks,

Jim

Originally posted by Victor Parlati on KFO

ABOUT a lot of things.


And I did NOT admit that I wasn't doing the "real" Wing Chun.

I said that I purposely played a counter-attack game on the first set of clips - by I was doing so WITH Wing chun.

But when constantly on the attack - as I will do in future clips - the WING CHUN will look more pronounced.

Don't put your words in my mouth - and then try to use them against me.


Jiim,


Why would Victor convert his wing chun to wrestling?

I think everyone holds views according to his interest.


Pete

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Re-watching the video clips, I viewed very little wing chun and the WC that was apparent was definitely not resembling HFY in any shape.
Video number one, the grapple. Um, not WC, but was the right time and space for it. This is due to the understanding lost between the first contact and trapping range(his kwan sau).
video two, the grapple was not the appropriate time to do so, there for the struggle to find the mount.
Video three seem to show long range defense and reaction, most common to a lot of martial arts but not to wc, although we learn to understand the space, its not WC's forte.
Check out his pac sau(vid 4). I remember going through a pac sau exercise that looks the same as whats being used. Its a learning PS that develops how to just chase hand. since HFY does not chase, it's considered Fau Kiu PS.
Vid five is as most would play in as JimH calls it "western boxing" with the same PS and a hold to the wrist. This is because his opponent retreats. What happened to chase and pursue your attacker? I guess you could just through a kick that has no power in it, thats cool!
All in all I see little WC and it seem that there was a lot of retreating going on! I don't remember that being taught in the YMWC and/or in HFY.
Just a view point from one being, J-HFYofAZ

[sihing]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
Is this called well rounded training? I've seen many schools take this route of training, they get into the grappling, boxing, and even TKD (high kicking). This type of training kinda makes me think about who's doing the discovering and how. Let me elaborate a little, If one trains grappling to use then one is not looking at how to defeat it, if one trains to counter or take away the ability to grapple then they are still sticking to their true WC nature of one learning to counter others. Just one thought!
I still wish I could see the Monk vs moore. O well!

Exactly!! Good post James.

My POV is that Victor see's weakness in his TWC and has lost faith in what he has learned and feels the need to "close opened doors". Although he has 30 yrs of WC experience, he hasn't shown much improvement since I saw him live in 1990' to witness his Sifu level test. I will give him credit in that for a man with as much experience and training under his belt, he still does show a great intensity for realistic and hard training practice. Most ease off after a few years or so.

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by JamesHFYofAZ
Re-watching the video clips, I viewed very little wing chun and the WC that was apparent was definitely not resembling HFY in any shape.
Video number one, the grapple. Um, not WC, but was the right time and space for it. This is due to the understanding lost between the first contact and trapping range(his kwan sau).
video two, the grapple was not the appropriate time to do so, there for the struggle to find the mount.
Video three seem to show long range defense and reaction, most common to a lot of martial arts but not to wc, although we learn to understand the space, its not WC's forte.
Check out his pac sau(vid 4). I remember going through a pac sau exercise that looks the same as whats being used. Its a learning PS that develops how to just chase hand. since HFY does not chase, it's considered Fau Kiu PS.
Vid five is as most would play in as JimH calls it "western boxing" with the same PS and a hold to the wrist. This is because his opponent retreats. What happened to chase and pursue your attacker? I guess you could just through a kick that has no power in it, thats cool!
All in all I see little WC and it seem that there was a lot of retreating going on! I don't remember that being taught in the YMWC and/or in HFY.
Just a view point from one being, J-HFYofAZ

Agreed again. I didn't see much WC either, but at least he admits to only working on some specific things to show in the video, Bil Sao and Pak Sao I believe. But why show these "Experiements" first and foremost? Now he says the real stuff is on it's way. LoL. Victor only recieved a High 60 percentile mark for his Sifu Level test if I recall (I will have to review the tape I have of his Sifu test in front of GM Cheung to see exactly what his mark was, and, Victor was one of three testing for the Sifu Sash, all of them were told by GM Cheung that they could have done much better), he showed little skill then and still is today.

James


James

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Real stuff, he didn't even!@$@&#$!#$% Aaah!!!LOL! Wow, can't wait to see it!:rolleyes:
Thanks all

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Savi
As I understand it, looking at the video really shows me that Moore Sifu presented more of a 'light sparring' approach when he engaged the monk. But how many people have considered the disposition of the monk? Redmond Sifu's explanation only presented the perspective from the TWC group. Let's take a look at some different angles of perspective.

I have seen many documentaries on Shaolin monks who demonstrate their ability to take strikes to the body without getting affected at all; sometimes not moving a single inch. Usually that is a demonstration of superior chi gung and their ability to take punishment. In the case of the video, did you see the monk ever acknowledge the slaps and strikes he received? Did he pause or hesitate at all when he got struck? Or did he maintain his focus and press forward? I never saw the monk lose his center of gravity throughout the footage. Yet Moore was on a continual retreat. What does this say?

Many people may be impressed by the footage of Moore Sifu slapping the monk in the face. But if you understand from a cultural POV, the monk may have had the initial disposition of allowing the guy to strike him first, for reasons in the above paragraph. However, a slap in the face is considered to be more of an insult and especially in the case of Moore's "light sparring" presentation. A post from KFO also points this out:



I heard of one match that Bruce Lee had back in Hong Kong. Bruce Lee always maintained the focus of "honestly expressing yourself". No matter the circumstance, even he knew that your first move MUST BE REAL. The match that Bruce Lee fought in back in Hong Kong was against another larger Mongolian guy, and he knocked the guy out with his first punch. He had always stayed true to his sense of being real. This 'warrior' mindset is also consistent and understood through most of the martial community, including the Shaolin monks. In the case of the video, I think we are looking at two people with two different cultural realities.

Knowing this perspective, what is a slap in the face really conveying? That the slap could have been a real hit? Or that you don't understand the idea of "honestly expressing yourself"? Just because you may be able to land a few strikes against a Shaolin monk doesn't prove anything. The monk never backed away and put Moore on the defensive just by pressing his forward focus. And based on the video, Moore Sifu's actions immediately following the slaps show no intention/indication of his ability to capitalize on his attacks because of his continuous retreats.

Even some of the most famous fighters in history, like Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson, may have never landed the first couple of strikes in their bouts. However, most often that is overlooked because of who wins the fights. In boxing bouts, they may go 9 - 12 rounds. Ali took hundreds of hits, yet the point is WHO finishes the fight?

Looking at the video again, ask yourself who was really in control? When the monk captured Moore Sifu's hands and Cheung Sifu called out "Stop Stop Stop!", to whose benefit was it? Who was really in control and pressing his advantage?

I'm not trying to take away anything from Moore Sifu, but how many people have really considered the monk's point of reference?


Savi,

Excellent post! There must be something to think about -- even if it cannot be explained it is certainly enjoyed.


Pete

[Phil Redmond]

Sifu Moore has posted a response to the 'friendly exchange' at Shaolin on KFO.
PR

[Victor Parlati]

"My POV is that Victor see's weakness in his TWC and has lost faith in what he has learned and feels the need to "close opened doors". Although he has 30 yrs of WC experience, he hasn't shown much improvement since I saw him live in 1990' to witness his Sifu level test. I will give him credit in that for a man with as much experience and training under his belt, he still does show a great intensity for realistic and hard training practice. Most ease off after a few years or so." (sihing)


NOTHING could be further from the truth, James.

I have made it very clear on the other forum that my purpose on this FIRST set of clips was to show some TWC, some wrestling, and some basic defenses against hook punches and jab/cross combos.

That was all.

My next set of clips (probably within the next 2 weeks) will show A GREAT DEAL OF WING CHUN - in a realistic hard sparring setting...as I have said.

As for my "improvement" since you saw me 14 years ago...well...not only will you see it on the next set of videos - but if you come to Cleveland in May - you will see it first hand.

You never cease to amaze me, James.

[Cang Long]

Sifu Parlati,
Welcome to the forum, I know you are not an audio videophile by any stretch of the imgination but what might be helpful on your next set of clips is adjoining audio commentary of just what you are trying to convey in the exercise. Not always possible but helpful if you can supply it. Thanks and again welcome to the forum.

[Victor Parlati]

Well that's a good idea, Tony...

but I'm no expert on being able to do something like that.

I did make a number of posts, however, on the other forum about my clips.

Maybe what I can do the next time - since one of my students emails the clips to Phil Redmond - and he posts them...is to try and coordinate some "timing" with Phil...

So that I can make a post about the same time as he's putting up the videos - and explain on the post what it is that the new set of videos is meant to convey.

[Op108wc]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Sifu Moore has posted a response to the 'friendly exchange' at Shaolin on KFO.
PR


There seems to have been a slight problem with the Kung Fu Magazine Forums database.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Victor Parlati
"My POV is that Victor see's weakness in his TWC and has lost faith in what he has learned and feels the need to "close opened doors". Although he has 30 yrs of WC experience, he hasn't shown much improvement since I saw him live in 1990' to witness his Sifu level test. I will give him credit in that for a man with as much experience and training under his belt, he still does show a great intensity for realistic and hard training practice. Most ease off after a few years or so." (sihing)


NOTHING could be further from the truth, James.

I have made it very clear on the other forum that my purpose on this FIRST set of clips was to show some TWC, some wrestling, and some basic defenses against hook punches and jab/cross combos.

That was all.

My next set of clips (probably within the next 2 weeks) will show A GREAT DEAL OF WING CHUN - in a realistic hard sparring setting...as I have said.

As for my "improvement" since you saw me 14 years ago...well...not only will you see it on the next set of videos - but if you come to Cleveland in May - you will see it first hand.

You never cease to amaze me, James.

Well Victor I say it like I see it, that's all. Put something up on video to change my mind and I will state that also. I did give credit where credit is due, I do respect that you are training hard for a person that has a long history with the art.

A funny thing happened recently. Without naming names, a former student of mine who moved from Northern Ontario Canada to Southern Ontario, recently got in contact with Sifu and myself. I talked with him on the phone, and he will be coming to Calgary in April to do some training, it should be a great time for sure. Anyways, I asked if he has done any training where he is in Southern Ont, and he said yes, with a TWC Sifu that was in his area. I asked how it was and he told me it was not the same as what he had learned with me ( he was a level 5 in our system, Chum Kiu/Wooden Dummy level). He also mentioned a few names of people he had met at seminars, to which of course I recognized, and he wasn't impressed in the least, in essense he said "They were all doing it wrong". He's quit participating in classes since then, and will continue on a correspondance course through our association. So I'm not the only one with an opinion.

This never has or never will be a personal issue. When I went to Denver back in 90' I was honestly looking forward to the chance to train with people like myself and of course to meet the GM William Cheung, but it wasn't anything like I anticipated and quite honestly I was shocked at the low quality of skill demonstrated by most of the students. Again I have nothing to gain by stating this observation. Your top US student at the time, Sifu Eric Oram was put down twice by one of our level 7 students at that time and now my Sihing, because he disputed a technique that my Sihing was using and thought it wouldn't work. Is this because he had never seen it before? I don't know, but he did learn that day of its effectiveness.

Don't expect me to be attending the Cleveland event. Firstly I don't think it will do me any good to attend the event. It is a long ways away from Calgary, and the expense is just too much right now. Please do not refer to this as a person not willing to put it on the line, as this is not the case in this instance.

James

P.S. I believe they are performing maintenance on the KFO site.

[Victor Parlati]

"Well Victor I say it like I see it, that's all. Put something up on video to change my mind and I will state that also...

When I went to Denver back in 90' I was honestly looking forward to the chance to train with people like myself and of course to meet the GM William Cheung, but it wasn't anything like I anticipated and quite honestly I was shocked at the low quality of skill demonstrated by most of the students...

Don't expect me to be attending the Cleveland event. Firstly I don't think it will do me any good to attend the event..." (James Roller)


YOU'RE UNBELIEVABLE, JAMES...

For a man who has such a condesending view - and who admittedly doesn't do any hard contact sparring - AND who now says he won't be coming to Cleveland (that's VERRRY telling)...

and for that same man to manage to find the time to post (and even moderate) on a bunch of different forms virtually everyday...

for that guy to say that his "busy schedule" doesn't permit him to film anything to show us...

well...as I said...

UNBELIEVABLE.

[Cang Long]

Parlati Sifu,
Not sure if you have seen these or not.
Sihing doing his thing (http://www.codetrap.net/wingchun/)

[Victor Parlati]

I've seen them, Tony...

but James knows what I'm talking about.

The conversation on the VIDEO FOOTAGE thread on the other forum was specifically about REAL contact sparring that was not staged - but totally spontaneous.

James said that he didn't have time "now" to film anything like that and post it - but that he would at some point in the future.

I don't buy that explanation - especially now that I see he not only posts over there - but is actually a moderator over here...

and he has no time???

In any event - I think the points I've made within these last few posts are pretty obvious - and I'll let it go at that.

This is not the time - and certainly not the place - for such a discussion.

Just thought I'd drop by...

Talk to you guys on the other forum.


Oh, and one last thing...in October, 1990...

Eric Oram was by no means the best of all of William Cheung's American students. (Which is not to say that Eric wasn't good - he was - and is even better now).

But in October, 1990...within the WWCKFA...

Blaine Collins was the best. (EVERYBODY KNEW THAT).

And Johnny Clayton, Jesse Quinnones, Gary Young, and Anthony Arnett - to name but just 4 more - were also beyond Eric Oram, imo.

Later.

[Hungman]

Shannon Moore

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/tr...sp?message=3747

Freindly Exchange With Head Shaolin Monk I know this is an old thread and everyone has probably moved on I just wanted to add some comments in response to James's response to the footage of the Shaolin Warrior Monk and Myself James wrote: ..."Easy to see that he could have kept his ground? He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once. Yes he did get the slap in on the monk but it was because the monk had his guard down and the opening was there, to which then I guess Moore could have came in more committed with a harder strike..." (snip) "...Besides that I still don't understand why the confrontation happened anyways. So what, the younger monks were c0cky and thought they were all this or that, does challenging one of them to see what they would do in a half hearted sparring session help the situation? Lol. Maybe being humble enough to let them think what they want and realize the truth for yourself would have been a better reaction by a true Martial Artist. If the whole situation was no big deal and warranted why did Cheung get upset?...J " Jameswww.wingchun-canada.com Sifu Moore writes: Greetings James, Happy New Year to you and all the list members and may 2005 be a fruitful and rewarding to you and your organizations. Regarding my trip to the Shaolin Temple June of 04. It is always interesting and revealing to read all of the speculation that goes on in these threads. I guess if you do not have the ability to witness something first hand your only left with speculation. So for anyone speculating on these particular events, let me state the facts as I was the only one on this list that was there. First Thank you for the Kinds words from Master Phil Redmond and Master Victor Parlatti. The Facts: The stage had been set for some freindly sparring between the Sifus of the TWC system and the Shaolin Monks. It was to be billed a"freindly exchange of information" and was to be done in private. It was not my idea and I did expect to participate. From what I was told later, the monks switched the plans at the last minute to a public event. There were probably over 50 spectators...a perferct setting for a loss of ego control. It was my opinion that sparring with the monks if they brought it up was acceptable. Afterall who could pass up an opportunity to exchange with the mecca of all MA the Shaolin Temple. However I was seriously against any of my people initiating a challenge to the monks in their own house. Afterall, these are our Grandparents. Shaolin is root of our WC ancestoral heritage and do something like that seemed extremly discrespectful and not a good example of the true Martial Way. So when I was told what was going on in the Ballroom I went to see for myself. When I arrived I could feel the tension as I saw the looks on the faces of the Monks and of the other TWC Sifu's. The potential for escalation was obvious and I had initially decided to seperate myself from the whole event. I didnt think it would actually happen and when I realized that it was going to happen ,I wanted no part of it. I was in China, a life long dream and then on top of it all , I was training and interacting with The Shaolin Temple and real warroir monks. This was definately NOT how I wanted to start of the relationship or finish it for that matter. So I came into the Ballroom and sat across the room away from the other Sifus. There had already been some converstaion going back and forth between the TWC Sifus and the Shaolin Monks and with each question brought more tension. It was then that I decided that the "Freindly Exchange of Information" between my WC family members and the Monks should not take place. As it was my strong feeling that an all out brawl was about to occur at any momement. And based on post conversations with all parties involed , my observation was accurate . So before anything could happen, I decided to put myself in between the situation as a buffer. I figuired I would trade a little with the Monks, and if anything happend I could control the sitaution and my ego and prevent escalation. I CANNOT say the same for the others as the mere fact that they would initiate something like this in the first place is ALL EGO. In any regard, I accomplished exactly what I planned and thwarted a potentially deadly international incident. In fact, the head Warior said as much to me the following day and invited me back to the shaolin temple to continue my trainning with him. Now, regarding your speculation on what you veiwed in the clip of my less then 30 second exchange with the Head Warroir Monk of the Shaolin Temple. In my mind, i was the guest and he was my senoir. I definately wanted to demonstrate respct to him in his own house. I had initially asked the translater to tell one of the more junior monks that I would throw some srikes at him and he would have to respond. Something must of went wrong in the translation because I ended up with the Head Warroir Monk. Tradition usually calls for a Junior before a senoir. In fact, just prior to what you saw on the clip I had pointed out one of the Junior Monks who had been starring me down the entire evening. Again I did not want to direspect the head monk in way and you will see me gesture to him with my hands open in a "are you sure" kind of way and then give him the buddist greeting and bow of respect when I realized it would be him and not the others. Since I did want to control the situation, I had already decided to keep it light and NOT to threaten the Head Monk in anyway. The question that had just been posed to him was how would they deal with rapid fire punching ( like in WC). So when I attack the Monk I made sure to use an Open Hand (non threatning) and to avoid using the amount of normal forward pressure that I put on opponents. I had been doing that before Wing Chun and anyone who has seen me fight in competitions and/or in real life know what I mean and can attest to that. But you of course do not have that privalage James so I understand and appreciate your comments despite their inaccuracy. You made a judgement based on the limited info that was presented to you. In actuality, I knew I had to be fast but nonthreatning. So I gave the Monk some high references and then low references using multiple strikes to set up an potential opportunity. I wanted to create a level of sensory deprivation to create an opening and it worked. That is why the palm slap connected. And I did not loose my balance on the initial attack. Whatch it again with a faster bandwidth connection. What you saw was a 300lb man stop on a dime and "backed dat thang up" as they say. I knew there was the potential that the monk would be quick and so extending the distance to extend the time it would take him to reach me was a good choice on my part on several levels. Each time I took only two back half steps and then would step of the line of attack as the clip shows. In light of the situation if I had done any other type of entry and then followed through it would of most certainly of threatend the monk as I would of forced him to become defensive. If he was my enemy or a true opponent and the situation were different I would of most certantly would have pressured him . As I said in this situation, I am glad I did not as it would have defeniately changed the tone of the encouter. So it worked, no one else got up to fight there were no international incidences. The Head Monk respected me for my control and demonstrated that by his energy and actions during the encounter and after. It was my responsibility to show respect and humble myself to him and his house. So I did. That is how I was raised...to respect family (from low to high) and that is what I expect from my students. Where I come from, we dont start fights but we definately are taught to finish them. Just like the Art of War..."My eneny starts first, but I finish first. I was in an emergency situation and this is what I decided was the best way to handle the situation in the limited time I had to think about it. As for Grandmaster Cheung getting upset,well that was probably more a political issue. He had to allow the Monk to save face and there was more going on behind the scences that most know that warrented a healthy relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Wing Chun. He has also expressed to me his apporval of my actions based on what he knows were my true motives. So In the end, I think it was the true martial Way to potentially scarifice myself for the well being of my family members on both sides and eliminate any potential violence that would have ensued. I did not issue the challange but I did end or stop the real fight from happening...ahhh...The art of fighting without fighting.....and all I had to do was take two steps back and then off the line. All the best to you on your WC Journey Your Brother in WC, Sifu Shannon Moore http://www.templewingchun.com

[sihing]

Originally posted by Victor Parlati
"Well Victor I say it like I see it, that's all. Put something up on video to change my mind and I will state that also...

When I went to Denver back in 90' I was honestly looking forward to the chance to train with people like myself and of course to meet the GM William Cheung, but it wasn't anything like I anticipated and quite honestly I was shocked at the low quality of skill demonstrated by most of the students...

Don't expect me to be attending the Cleveland event. Firstly I don't think it will do me any good to attend the event..." (James Roller)


YOU'RE UNBELIEVABLE, JAMES...

For a man who has such a condesending view - and who admittedly doesn't do any hard contact sparring - AND who now says he won't be coming to Cleveland (that's VERRRY telling)...

and for that same man to manage to find the time to post (and even moderate) on a bunch of different forms virtually everyday...

for that guy to say that his "busy schedule" doesn't permit him to film anything to show us...

well...as I said...

UNBELIEVABLE.

It's not just my schedule, others have schedule's too, it's not so easy when everyone is not available, or would you prefer me to take on one on the new students and kick the crap out of them? Anyways here's some of what I did last week. Monday and Wednesday night from 7pm to 8:15pm taught at new rec center in NW of Calgary, 15 kids aged 4 to 12, 4 older people aged 15 and up including two adults. Thursday was a self defense seminar with my Sihing for the local Board of Education, two sessions 10 am to 12 noon, and 1pm to 3pm, then as soon as I got back to the school an intro lesson, which was unexpected. Friday had us at the University of Calgary for a Chinese New Years demo. Also beside the regular activities needed to run a growing Martial Arts school, we had to film footage of for the DVD we will be handing out at this Saturdays Student Reunion(all of us instructors are on it talking about our experience with Master Brian Lewadny and his association and we had to demonstrate some techniques, I demonstrated some random Chi-sao with my Sihing to which I may post up soon), and we had to finish a article to be published in a provincial Martial Arts Magazine on Wing Chun Kicks to which I am the author. I also teach on Monday and Wednesday afternoon at 12, and 12 noon on Saturdays at the advanced student class. So like I have said earlier, when all of this is done by next week and things slow down a bit, I should be able to get some sparring footage done and online. I am usually online in the morning for a hour or so and then for a couple of hours or so after 9pm, which is when I have supper and relax a bit by spending time on KFO (lol, which is sometimes not so relaxing) and here and other places.

P.S. As far as we were told, the best the US chapter of GM Cheung's organization had to offer at that time period was said to be Eric Oram, and to me he did seem to have the best skills as he was young and eager to impress. As for Blaine Collins he was a very courteous host and helped us all a ton when we were there in Denver, although the demonstration he performed was a bit embarrassing as he needed 3 attempts to Biu Gee through a 1" board, to which he ended up reverse side palm striking instead of finger jabbing through. But he was quite impressed with Sifu as he had observed his blindfold chi-sao demonstration practice session (during a break in the seminar) and emphatically requested him to demonstrate his skills at the banquet on the Saturday night in honor of GM Cheung's 50th birthday, to which Sifu declined for a variety of reasons. Actually it was years later that I got in contact with Blaine and he sent me the Denver Tapes that were professionally done during the seminar.

I agree that this is not the place or the time to discuss things like my willingness to produce video of my fighting skills. It's starting to be a old story with you Victor as you seem to have a superiority complex at times with certain subjects and people, me being one of them. If you only knew what you don't know, things would be different, TRUST ME, lol....

James

[sihing]

Originally posted by Hungman
Shannon Moore

http://www.vingtsun.com.hk/forum/tr...sp?message=3747

Freindly Exchange With Head Shaolin Monk I know this is an old thread and everyone has probably moved on I just wanted to add some comments in response to James's response to the footage of the Shaolin Warrior Monk and Myself James wrote: ..."Easy to see that he could have kept his ground? He went in to attack and fell/retreated backwards, almost losing his balance, throwing a hook at the same time that ended up being 3 feet too far from the Monk, who never moved backwards once. Yes he did get the slap in on the monk but it was because the monk had his guard down and the opening was there, to which then I guess Moore could have came in more committed with a harder strike..." (snip) "...Besides that I still don't understand why the confrontation happened anyways. So what, the younger monks were c0cky and thought they were all this or that, does challenging one of them to see what they would do in a half hearted sparring session help the situation? Lol. Maybe being humble enough to let them think what they want and realize the truth for yourself would have been a better reaction by a true Martial Artist. If the whole situation was no big deal and warranted why did Cheung get upset?...J " Jameswww.wingchun-canada.com Sifu Moore writes: Greetings James, Happy New Year to you and all the list members and may 2005 be a fruitful and rewarding to you and your organizations. Regarding my trip to the Shaolin Temple June of 04. It is always interesting and revealing to read all of the speculation that goes on in these threads. I guess if you do not have the ability to witness something first hand your only left with speculation. So for anyone speculating on these particular events, let me state the facts as I was the only one on this list that was there. First Thank you for the Kinds words from Master Phil Redmond and Master Victor Parlatti. The Facts: The stage had been set for some freindly sparring between the Sifus of the TWC system and the Shaolin Monks. It was to be billed a"freindly exchange of information" and was to be done in private. It was not my idea and I did expect to participate. From what I was told later, the monks switched the plans at the last minute to a public event. There were probably over 50 spectators...a perferct setting for a loss of ego control. It was my opinion that sparring with the monks if they brought it up was acceptable. Afterall who could pass up an opportunity to exchange with the mecca of all MA the Shaolin Temple. However I was seriously against any of my people initiating a challenge to the monks in their own house. Afterall, these are our Grandparents. Shaolin is root of our WC ancestoral heritage and do something like that seemed extremly discrespectful and not a good example of the true Martial Way. So when I was told what was going on in the Ballroom I went to see for myself. When I arrived I could feel the tension as I saw the looks on the faces of the Monks and of the other TWC Sifu's. The potential for escalation was obvious and I had initially decided to seperate myself from the whole event. I didnt think it would actually happen and when I realized that it was going to happen ,I wanted no part of it. I was in China, a life long dream and then on top of it all , I was training and interacting with The Shaolin Temple and real warroir monks. This was definately NOT how I wanted to start of the relationship or finish it for that matter. So I came into the Ballroom and sat across the room away from the other Sifus. There had already been some converstaion going back and forth between the TWC Sifus and the Shaolin Monks and with each question brought more tension. It was then that I decided that the "Freindly Exchange of Information" between my WC family members and the Monks should not take place. As it was my strong feeling that an all out brawl was about to occur at any momement. And based on post conversations with all parties involed , my observation was accurate . So before anything could happen, I decided to put myself in between the situation as a buffer. I figuired I would trade a little with the Monks, and if anything happend I could control the sitaution and my ego and prevent escalation. I CANNOT say the same for the others as the mere fact that they would initiate something like this in the first place is ALL EGO. In any regard, I accomplished exactly what I planned and thwarted a potentially deadly international incident. In fact, the head Warior said as much to me the following day and invited me back to the shaolin temple to continue my trainning with him. Now, regarding your speculation on what you veiwed in the clip of my less then 30 second exchange with the Head Warroir Monk of the Shaolin Temple. In my mind, i was the guest and he was my senoir. I definately wanted to demonstrate respct to him in his own house. I had initially asked the translater to tell one of the more junior monks that I would throw some srikes at him and he would have to respond. Something must of went wrong in the translation because I ended up with the Head Warroir Monk. Tradition usually calls for a Junior before a senoir. In fact, just prior to what you saw on the clip I had pointed out one of the Junior Monks who had been starring me down the entire evening. Again I did not want to direspect the head monk in way and you will see me gesture to him with my hands open in a "are you sure" kind of way and then give him the buddist greeting and bow of respect when I realized it would be him and not the others. Since I did want to control the situation, I had already decided to keep it light and NOT to threaten the Head Monk in anyway. The question that had just been posed to him was how would they deal with rapid fire punching ( like in WC). So when I attack the Monk I made sure to use an Open Hand (non threatning) and to avoid using the amount of normal forward pressure that I put on opponents. I had been doing that before Wing Chun and anyone who has seen me fight in competitions and/or in real life know what I mean and can attest to that. But you of course do not have that privalage James so I understand and appreciate your comments despite their inaccuracy. You made a judgement based on the limited info that was presented to you. In actuality, I knew I had to be fast but nonthreatning. So I gave the Monk some high references and then low references using multiple strikes to set up an potential opportunity. I wanted to create a level of sensory deprivation to create an opening and it worked. That is why the palm slap connected. And I did not loose my balance on the initial attack. Whatch it again with a faster bandwidth connection. What you saw was a 300lb man stop on a dime and "backed dat thang up" as they say. I knew there was the potential that the monk would be quick and so extending the distance to extend the time it would take him to reach me was a good choice on my part on several levels. Each time I took only two back half steps and then would step of the line of attack as the clip shows. In light of the situation if I had done any other type of entry and then followed through it would of most certainly of threatend the monk as I would of forced him to become defensive. If he was my enemy or a true opponent and the situation were different I would of most certantly would have pressured him . As I said in this situation, I am glad I did not as it would have defeniately changed the tone of the encouter. So it worked, no one else got up to fight there were no international incidences. The Head Monk respected me for my control and demonstrated that by his energy and actions during the encounter and after. It was my responsibility to show respect and humble myself to him and his house. So I did. That is how I was raised...to respect family (from low to high) and that is what I expect from my students. Where I come from, we dont start fights but we definately are taught to finish them. Just like the Art of War..."My eneny starts first, but I finish first. I was in an emergency situation and this is what I decided was the best way to handle the situation in the limited time I had to think about it. As for Grandmaster Cheung getting upset,well that was probably more a political issue. He had to allow the Monk to save face and there was more going on behind the scences that most know that warrented a healthy relationship between the Shaolin Temple and Wing Chun. He has also expressed to me his apporval of my actions based on what he knows were my true motives. So In the end, I think it was the true martial Way to potentially scarifice myself for the well being of my family members on both sides and eliminate any potential violence that would have ensued. I did not issue the challange but I did end or stop the real fight from happening...ahhh...The art of fighting without fighting.....and all I had to do was take two steps back and then off the line. All the best to you on your WC Journey Your Brother in WC, Sifu Shannon Moore http://www.templewingchun.com

I haven't responded yet as the KFO forum went down before I could. I will respond when it comes up. Mr Moore sounds like a nice guy with respect for Martial Arts tradition but I still don't understand why the whole things started in the first place. Since when do we let others feelings towards us dictate our actions? So what that the junior monks were c0cky with the TWC people and starring them down. If Shannon wanted to find out how the Shaolin Art deals with rapid fire strikes like the WC chain punch, then why did he attack the way he did, which wasn't the WC Chain punch? Still a bit confusing to me, but I wasn't there and there were probably things going on behind the scene that Shannon mentioned. Really, I don't care to much about it as it has nothing to do with me, I just made some comments on the clip that Phil supplied to us.

James

[sihing]

NOTICE: I just deleted a post written by Victor Parlati which was a personal attack on myself.

Victor, regardless of your feelings towards me, please refrain yourself from calling people names and showing a general lack of respect towards people with different opinions than yourself on this public forum, otherwise you will be banned...

James Roller
Moderator

[Victor Parlati]

DISGRACEFUL BEHAVIOR.

You get to talk trash and then delete the other guy's response.

And then you threaten to ban them.

JUST OUTRAGEOUS.

[sihing]

I may not believe in your individual skill Victor, but I don't call you names, and make a mockery of your skill to others. Feel free to think what you may about the deletion of your post but regardless of who you were talking about, whether me or someone else on here, your words were uncalled for. Agree to disagree on certain issues is fine but name calling is not.

James

[Victor Parlati]

James:

There's obviously a reason why you are on my ignore list on the other forum - and it's clearly the same reason why I'm about to make my final post on this forum (since allowing you - of all people - the power to delete my posts is truly unacceptable - since my ability to FIGHT with Wing Chun...and to be a COMPLETE fighter (as in the use of clinch fighting and wrestling as part of my arsenal of weapons)....IS SO FAR BEYOND YOUR ABILITIES...

and that "reason" that I'm now referring to is quite simply this:

your opinions about other people's skills are totally self-serving and delusional...and your pretension to some sort of "throne" (along with putting your sifu there sitting next to you)...is a mockery of any kind of truth in advertising - if you get my drift.

Now I understand exactly why it is that you're not coming to Cleveland...

you know what would happen if you decided to spar with me - for then your big "pretension" game would not only be finished - but it would also be on video.

[JamesHFYofAZ]

Mind if I step in?
You guys seem to be in a love hate thing, thats cool! I think that this fued could be put to a rest, but thats just me, super nice guy. I was thinking this because there was no gain in the direction or circle its going, exept maybe a bad rap!
Victor, your going to post this COMPLETE WC fighting on line here? I look forward to it, thanks!
Sihing, I enjoyed watching your footage, you expressed your level of knowledge well, with out killing the guy, standing!
laters!

[sihing]

Yeah, yeah, yeah Victor, whatever makes you feel better, please feel free to believe it......

James, please call me James, lol, and thanks for the compliment on the video's. There will be more to come soon after this month is over, too busy and not enough time to get it all done.. Later..

James

[Phil Redmond]

This is the video of the board break by Blaine Collins. I saw two attempts on the video. The first time the guys holding the boeard moved. You can see the blood on the board form his firsst attempt/s. But if you look closely you can clearly see that the board was not broken with the side of his hand. He used his finger tips. James, maybe I'm wrong but your statments seem hostile towards members of the Assoc. What happened between your Sifu and mine is between them. Why do you seem bitter? I harbor no ill feeling towards your Sifu because he's no longer a member of the WWCKFA. In fact, we've even emailed each other.
I wasn't there when the separation took place and frankly it's simply not my business. ;)
As moderators we should set an impartial example.

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BlaineCollins_bj_break.mpeg
PR

[sihing]

Originally posted by Phil Redmond
This is the video of the board break by Blaine Collins. I saw two attempts on the video. The first time the guys holding the boeard moved. You can see the blood on the board form his firsst attempt/s. But if you look closely you can clearly see that the board was not broken with the side of his hand. He used his finger tips. James, maybe I'm wrong but your statments seem hostile towards members of the Assoc. What happened between your Sifu and mine is between them. Why do you seem bitter? I harbor no ill feeling towards your Sifu because he's no longer a member of the WWCKFA. In fact, we've even emailed each other.
I wasn't there when the separation took place and frankly it's simply not my business. ;)
As moderators we should set an impartial example.

http://www.free-element.com/wingchun/BlaineCollins_bj_break.mpeg
PR

Phil,
I have no ill feelings towards your association or people in it, although it appears that Victor and myself are not the best of friends. Like I said earlier, Blaine Collins treated us very well while we were in Denver back in 90', and just because I have a different point of view of the "board break" does not mean I have ill feelings. People are free to feel or express opinion on someone's else’s skills, and in my opinion the 3 attempts to break the board was not a skillful demonstration, but I will say that in my time there that this all I saw Blaine perform, in regards to his WC skill, as he was a busy man that weekend running the event. I too have slowed down the action, as I also own the tapes, and IMO he is using more of the side of the palm than his Biu Gee, but opinions can vary and that's okay, plus I was there also to witness it live. As for what I witnessed in regards to WC skill and/or a lack of it shown at the event, again this is just my opinion of what I saw and experienced, nothing for me to gain or lose, nothing personal. If you attended a event hosted by us and had similar feelings then you are free to say the same thing, it is a free country right (like I said earlier, my student attended some TWC seminars, met some people and had a opinion of what he learned and saw, but I didn't relate names, as this would be inappropriate and know one else’s business). It's not like the first thing I did once on these forums is relate my experiences and opinions regarding the Denver 90' event on the first thread I started. If this was the case then yes, you would be justified in feeling that I am "Out to get the TWC camp", but this is not the case.

Phil, you seem to be a super friendly man and knowledgeable Wing Chun instructor, and I respect you for that to the utmost, because in the end it is how you treat others and spreading of the Art that is really important, to me anyways, so we have a common denominator here when it comes to that aspect of Wing Chun martial arts. As moderators yes we have an added responsibility but this do not exclude us from participation in discussions, and basically this is what I try to do on these forums, discuss things in a civil and decent manner, unfortunately not all are doing the same.


James

[Victor Parlati]

"As moderators yes we have an added responsibility but this do not exclude us from participation in discussions, and basically this is what I try to do on these forums, discuss things in a civil and decent manner, unfortunately not all are doing the same." (James Roller)


AS A MODERATOR...it is not your place to be criticizing (under the guise of "just giving my opinion")...other people's Wing Chun knowledge and abilities.

That is exactly one of the things that moderators are supposed to do - make sure that such criticisms don't get out of hand.

But you add fuel to the very types of fires you're supposed to be regulating or putting out.

That's just plain wrong.

[Phil Redmond]

Hello James, I'm not aware of any TWC Sifus in Southern Ontario. Well, except for the few students I have there. You're not considering TO as S. Ontario are you?
PR