Chan Wah Shun Vs Wong Fei Hung

[mario bava]

Hello Cang Long

I agree, this is interesting, very much so for me as I used to train in the Yip Man lineage. I would be very interested to hear from some TWC experienced members on what they think about the ideas on the thread.
Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Cang Long:
Is there a lineage chart for us to view, and or would you care to share with us Master Rien Bul's Sifu's name?

Gary:
Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cang Long, Gary, friends..

You are putting me in an awkward position here. Let me put upfront that English isn't my mother-tongue. It is hard to expess myself in it as it is. It also isn't always quite easy to understand exactly what another person means. For instance, Cang Long; Are you asking me for a family-tree? If so, there is one on the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen website, although it is very incomplete. Your last question is even more puzzeling to me (excuse me for being stupid). What do you mean by 'and or would you care to share with us Master Rien Bul's Sifu's name?'? It is his true name, if that is what you are asking.

Discussing technical details and getting through what you mean only by words is hard for most anyone. But to someone with a very limited grasp of the English language it is pretty much impossible. This is something one should be able to show to an interested person and let him experience first hand. I have tried discussing this kind of info on the internet and my experiences with it have been nothing less than traumatising. Really. So I am unable to help out on this point. I would have LOVED to if I could have..

And don't forget, the info is all coming from GM Bul. I'm just re-telling what I've been told off the top of my head. But I know there is unbelievebly much more of this sort of info where this came from. I can tell you it is just the top of an immense iceberg. Even the little part I know could fill a large book.

I am grateful for your interest.

Respect,

[mario bava]

Hello wengshunkuen

Thanks very much for your answer. In no way would anyone here wish you to feel that way, I understand 100% what you mean.
I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).

Again, please do not feel in an akward position. This forum is wonderful for genuine discussion and interest and it has been wonderful reading your posts.

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Dear Hungman,

Like I said previously, I am a sucker for stories like yours. I have always liked the one below. It is not meant to put anyone down. It is just a ascinating read that I didn't want you to miss out on. Hope you enjoy it!

Your friend,
WengShunKuen


'Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun' (Author unknown)

Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon



Before I begin this story, I want to make it clear that this is in
no way intended to put Chow Gar Mantis up as superior to the Wing
Chun system, and no offence is intended to any Wing Chun player.
This is simply a legend related to me by my Sifu. This legend is, in
a way, a tribute to the late Wing Chun Master, best known as Bruce
Lee's Sifu in the early years. I say tribute because it depicts Sifu
Leung in a situation where he found himself often. And on a personal
note, my first ever Sifu, who taught me Wing Chun Chuan, trained
under Sifu Wong Shun Leung in Australia for some time, so I suppose
in a way he was my first SiGong.

Everyone who knows anything about Sifu Wong Shun Leung knows that he
loved to fight. It was this fact that first brought him to the
school of the late Wing Chun Grandmaster, Yip Man. On crossing hands
with Yip Man, he very quickly realised that he was no match for the
Grandmaster, and asked if he would take him as his student. It would
appear that this 'fighting spirit' never really dwindled as Wong
Shun Leung progressed in his training, as one day, he appeared at
the school of Grandmaster Ip Sui...

He had come to cross hands with the Grandmaster, which is probably
bordering on the disrespectful. Even so, you have to admire his
spirit. Grandmaster Ip Sui, who was teaching a class at the time,
turned down the request, but suggested a contest between the curious
student, and one of his own students, Mr Choy Su Wing.

The Southern Mantis system is ideal for those with a long, slender
physique, just like the characteristics of the mantis itself. It
also places great emphasis on internal training's, to generate
strength and power. Choy Su Wing is tall, but very powerful. Both
students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.

In the blink of an eye, Mr Choy used the powerful 'Cum La' seizing
hand technique, grabbing Wong Shun by the throat and the arm. From
many years of training the Mantis Clawing technique his hands and
arms were as solid as iron bars. Try as he might, and the story goes
that he put up a hell of a fight, Wong Shun was unable to remove
them. Mr Choy's arms were too long to enable Wong Shun to put a kick
in - Mr Choy walked him into the corner by his throat, and held him
there. At once, he released his arm and raised his hand to drop the
devastating Gow Choi (Tiger comes down the mountain) hammer hand
technique upon his head.

Gow choi is an extremely serious technique to use - Grandmaster Ip
Sui, who had been watching this turn of events closely, moved
quickly to Mr Choy's side, and as he brought his hand crashing down
towards Wong Shun's head, Grandmaster slapped his arm across, so the
technique missed the target.

Grandmaster broke up the session, telling Wong Shun Leung that he
had seen what he had come to see, and that he should leave. Wong
Shun Leung was quite lucky that day.

As an endnote, Grandmaster Ip Sui travelled to the school of Yip
Man, to ask him why he had sent his student to his school to make
trouble. Yip Man said that he had no involvement in this. Wong Shun
Leung had made the decision to go to Ip Sui's school of his own
accord...

Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter, and
someone who believed in the merits of the Challenge Match. Not so
much today, where, too often, Kung Fu is a game, a hobby, something
to do in our spare time. We could all learn something from Sifu
Leung. Kung Fu is also about having heart and the guts to put
yourself on the spot.

Today, Sifu Choy Su Wing is in good health and living in Hong Kong,
aged 72.



Wong Shun Leung.... 1935-1997

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello wengshunkuen

Thanks very much for your answer. In no way would anyone here wish you to feel that way, I understand 100% what you mean.
I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).

Again, please do not feel in an akward position. This forum is wonderful for genuine discussion and interest and it has been wonderful reading your posts.

Cheerio, Gary

Dear friend,

Thanks for understanding!

Greetz,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello wengshunkuen

I do not assume 1% to speak for Cang Long, but I think he was just enquiring about the name of the sifu of Master Rien Bul ( his teacher ).

Thanks Gary. Now I understand the question. GM Bul's Sifu's name will probably mean nothing to anyone here. He was called Lin Yi. But when GM Bul asked him how his name was written he agreed with almost anything GM wrote down, no matter what the spelling was; Lin Yi, Lin Ji, Lim Yee, Lam Yee etc. Also, GM Bul still doesn't know if this was his personal name or sirname or nickname or anything. It is just an approximation of what the name sounded like to a Dutch-speaking person. GM Bul says it didn't matter much at the time. He called his teacher 'Sifu' anyway(-;

The lineage of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen came from a person on the red junks whom GGM Lin Yi (whatever) called Leung Shum Dit (again an approximation of GGM's pronunciation) and sometime 'Sun Kam'. This is most likely the same person mentioned by other lineages as 'Dai Fa Min Kam'. He taught Fong Siu Ching, who taught Hon Wah Sheun (again..) who taught Lin Yi, who taught Rien Bul.

Cang Long, I hope this answers your question. And Gary, thank you again for your help.

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello Cang Long


Also, wengshunkuen, it is very nice to meet you here - I would like to ask if you would be able to share your knowledge of the mentioned differences between the footwork of Chi Shim, your own footwork and that of TWC. If you can I would be very grateful - this is very interesting.

Cheerio, Gary

Below I will post two articles by GM Prof Bul on footwork. Please, don't ask me to elaborate any further on them. You would be talking to the wrong person. I can only add from my own experience that I have seen someone from one of the many versions of southern Praying Mantis perform EXACTLY the same footwork as we do in Wudang Weng Shun Kuen! This is interesting, because it is said that the early Hakka style that evolved into southern Mantis was one of the earliest and biggest influences on the genesis and early development of Weng Shun Kuen. The rest is up to the GM's articles.

The importance of correct positioning
by Rien Bul

To make your techniques work it is imperative to understand the
importance of correct positioning. It is one of the major features
of our style wich make it possible to overcome force without the use
of excessive muscular strength.

It has been said that a complete Gung Fu style contains both "hard"
and "soft" techniques. In fact nothing could be further from the
truth. The people who say such things lack the knowledge to make
an "internal" style work. Therefore they think it is all just a
theory that can't be made to work in actual combat. In Weng Shun
Kuen this knowledge is lost to all but a few lineages. Also, there
are those styles that promise their students they will learn how to
control and defeat an opponent who is physically bigger and stronger
then themselves and can't deliver the goods in the end. This doesn't
help the "soft" styles' credibility either. But in fact it isn't
mysterious at all and not as hard to learn as one might think it is.
You just have to understand the way it works.

When under attack, a Weng Shun Kuen man slaps away whatever is
coming at him, using the Man Sao ("Attacking the attack"). Then he
positions his body behind his technique to strengthen it. This is
accomplished by pointing the centerline at he point of contact (see
illustrations). This way very little muscle power is needed to
control the opponent. To be able to pull all of this off fluently
one needs a good control of his Footwork.



Footwork
by Rien Bul

One of the hardest subjects to get across to the reader, I think, is
Weng Shun Kuen footwork. But I'll give it a try, anyway. Most Weng
Shun Kuen practitioners have a poor understanding of the style's
footwork. But it's much more important to have a good grasp of than
one might think. Your hand techniques don't function properly if you
don't have it down. Plus, contrary to popular belief, it isn't a
bore to train at all!

Swiveling
One of the most basic techniques within Weng Shun Kuen allows one to
rotate around one's own axis as fast as the situation calls for
without jeopardising one's balance at any point in the process of
turning. I think it is best known as "swiveling", so that will be
the term I'll be using to describe it. This technique knows
surprisingly many applications, namely:

Fast positioning
Getting out of the way of the attack
Breaking holds
Unbalancing the opponent
Strengthening a technique by placing the practitioner's body behind
it

How to swivel correctly
To swivel correctly, one needs to be standing in the Weng Shun Kuen
basic stance known as "Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma". In this stance the
practitioner keeps both his feet at shoulder width and points his
toes inward at each other. Sink into the stance until you experience
a sensation like your knees are being pulled together by a rubber
band. The back should be straightened at all time. To make the Weng
Shun Kuen techniques function, it's imperative to be standing in
correct Yee Chi Kim Yeung Ma. When attempting to swivel without
pointing the toes inward, your body will tend to sway instead of
keeping in place and just turn around its own axis.

Positioning
Positioning at the opponent's side places the Weng Shun Kuen
practitioner outside of his reach. At the same time it enables him
to immobilize and then finish the opponent. One should also
strenghten one's technique by positioning behind it.

Attacking the opponent's legs
All the techniques meant to bridge the gap to the opponent are to be
found in the "Chum Kiu" form. Transfer as much weight as possible to
the rear leg by sinking into it. Use the front leg to agressively
attack the opponent's structure ( Stance). He is kept off-balance by
the practitioner's forward pressure. To accomplish this take short,
fierce steps, pressuring the opponent's legs from the side or rear.

Stepping
There are no long range stepping methods in Weng Shun Kuen. Because
the practitioner always counter-attacks after establishing contact,
the distance that must be bridged to reach the target is always very
short.

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen

[mario bava]

Hello WengShunKuen

Thanks very much again - you seem to have no confidence in you English - I find your English as good as anyone's! - much better than you must think it is! If possible, even in basic terms, can you give us any idea of the differences in footwork?

Cheerio, Gary

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava
Hello WengShunKuen

Thanks very much again - you seem to have no confidence in you English - I find your English as good as anyone's! - much better than you must think it is! If possible, even in basic terms, can you give us any idea of the differences in footwork?

Cheerio, Gary

..but my English really isn't up to it. It is too hard anyway. I can only say it is defensive at first, but aimed at 'attacking the opponent's attack and destroying his structure' (by pressuring it-WSK). It is amazingly soft but flexible. A visiting Hung Ga Sifu said " I have no clue how to fight anything this soft. It is like there's nothing there."

I have to get some sleep now. It is two in the morning here.

In friendship,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by wengshunkuen
'The truth about Yip Kai Man' by Prof.GM. Rien Bul

From the many stories about him that go around we can make
out that Yip Kai Man's ablities were exellent. And I for one
believe they were. So it is all the sadder that from many wittness
-accounts we have todetermine that very few of his students seem to
have
been trying to emulate his prowess. Most of them were rather busy
trying to punch their
trainingspartner more often than the trainingspartner hit them.

When Hawkins Cheung describes practising Chi Sao (sticking hands)
with Yip, he tells us that he, Hawkins, was always either on his
heels or toes.
Either way he was always off balance, while Yip was at all
times 'rooted' and effortlessly kept his feet flat on the ground.
This shows a lot in the difference in approach Yip and his students
had. And it tells a lot about Yip's personal style. All of Yip's
students seemed more or less punch happy, while Yip was more
concerned with putting his opponents off balance.
Officially, Yip Man had been a student of Chan Wah Shun. Chan had
been a student of the famous Dr. Leung Jan of Fut Shan.
But when Yip enrolled, Chan was already a feeble old man and did not
teach anymore. All of his classes were taken by his head student Ng
Chung So. Ng never achieved the level of fame that both Dr Leung and
Chan did, maybe due to the fact that he kept a much lower profile. So
Yip, although officially was Chan's student he never actually
recieved any lessons from him. He was taught completely by Ng. And
naturally
when Chan died, Ng became the new grandmaster of that particular
lineage, there was never any discussion or disagreement about this
everyone was in complete agreement.

After Chan's death, Yip resumed his studies with Ng.
Years later, when Yip Man had advanced in practicing Wing Chun Kuen,
he paid off a debt, by teaching someone's nephews and friend of
theirs in Wing Chun Kuen.
But before he could do so he went to see Ng to ask his permission to
teach outside of the school. Ng gave his permission on the proviso
that he would not teach the style's footwork. He would be allowed to
show
and explain the hand techniques, but NEVER explain how the footwork
actually worked. Yip promised he would and went ahead to teach the
boys for a few years.

When the communists came, Yip had to flee, he lived in Macau for some
time. Then travelled to Hong Kong. In Hong Kong Yip was not able to
earn a living, in fact he was
starving! But he knew of one way to earn money, to teach Wing Chun
Kuen. He
did not like to teach as in his opinion the style was not his to
teach,
due to Ng Chung So being the Grandmaster of the time. But in order
to live he had no choice but to teach.
Yip picked a fight with a 'huge' gung fu practitioner called Leung
Sheung.He easily defeated the big man, who in turn became Yip's first
student and helped him to start his school.
After Sheung, the first students he had were Yip Bo Ching and Choi
Shun Tin. Yip never ever broke his promise to Grandmaster Ng, he
never
taught any of his students the correct Wing Chun footwork.
That is because Yip did not consider himself the real Grandmaster of
his lineage. Even though he is now world renowned 'Grandmaster of
Wing
Chun' he was not! And that is one thing that none of Yip's students
will
ever admit.
Another thing is that Yip kept his footwork to himself. If you would
be to speak to all of Yip's students they would ALL explain the
footworkdifferently, because they filled in that part themselves!
They made
it up!!!!!!!!!!
Have you ever thought why Yip did not appoint anyone to be his
successor? After all those years he STILL did not consider himself
to be a teacher, much less a Grandmaster. So in his opinion there
was not
a title for him to give.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------



"Modern Wing Chun's Yip Man, while being a great martial artist and
teacher, was not a Bun Jyun (Lineage holder-Rien). He neither
claimed to lead a lineage nor claimed to be a successor to his
teacher while he was alive; It was only some of his students who
made this proclamation after his passing."

'Mastering Kung Fu'- page 60

http://home.quicknet.nl/qn/prive/wengshunkuen

From 'Complete Wing Chun' by Chu, Ritchie and Wu:

'It is known that when Yip Man taught Chi Sao, his students would always be gently falling backwards or forwards and unable to control their center of gravity. Yip Man would constantly have the students up on their heels or on the balls of their feet, while controlling their every movement.' page 22

[wengshunkuen]

When I saw Yip Man stick hands with others, he was very relaxed and
talked to his partner. Sometimes he threw his partner out without
having to hit him. When I stuck hands with Yip Man, I always felt my
balance controlled by him when I attempted to strike. I was always
off balance, with my toes or heels off the ground! I felt my hands
rebound when I tried to strike him. It appeared as if Yip Man would
use my force to hit me. His movement was so slight, it seemed he
didn't do anything, not even extend his hand! When I was thrown back,
it was very comfortable, not violent. Yet I could still not see his
techniques.

...He never landed a blow on he students. But he would put a
student in an awkward position...

...So every time he played Chi Sao
with a student, I kept watching his perfect Wing Chun bodystructure.
Whenever he took a step forward, his opponent was thrown back. No
matter how big the student was, Yip Man never exhibited a killing
attitude. The students would swing his hands, and Yip Man would smile
and merely control the movements...


...He just coached me and guided my
hands like a babysitter. In this manner I learned the softer,
defensive side of Wing Chun...

...When you do Chi Sao you should not attack first, but rather try to
collect as much information as you can on you opponent. Many Wing
Chun practitioners want to attack first without gathering
information. Attacking first is to give your opponent information on
yourself...

...'It is known that when Yip Man taught Chi Sao, his students would always be gently falling backwards or forwards and unable to control their center of gravity. Yip Man would constantly have the students up on their heels or on the balls of their feet, while controlling their every movement.' page 22

Friends,

All this sounds EXACTLY to me like my own experience with practising Chi Sao with my own Grandmaster. Maybe it tells you a bit of what you like to know..

WSK

[mario bava]

Thanks Again WSK -

Thanks for you posts.

The Hungman asked:

'Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?'

and your posted answer contained:

'Yip had already trained with GM Chu when he was a young student.'.........'It is an interesting fact that Yip's footwork is much closer to the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen version than to that of modern Chi Sim Weng Shun Kuen'.

In this instance, how have the footworks differed in your opinion?

By the way, I agree with you! It's late here in old Ireland as well and I'll be hitting the hay too. Anyway, I hope to chat again with you tomorrow maybe. Have a good snooze!

Cheerio, Gary

[Cang Long]

The lineage of Wudang Weng Shun Kuen came from a person on the red junks whom GGM Lin Yi (whatever) called Leung Shum Dit (again an approximation of GGM's pronunciation) and sometime 'Sun Kam'. This is most likely the same person mentioned by other lineages as 'Dai Fa Min Kam'. He taught Fong Siu Ching, who taught Hon Wah Sheun (again..) who taught Lin Yi, who taught Rien Bul.

Cang Long, I hope this answers your question.

Wengshunkuen,
Thank you for your patience and your willingness to share the teaching of your Sifu. The topics and insight are greatly appreciated I do agree witht he otheres that have said as much.

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by mario bava


The Hungman asked:

'Would these stories be able to explain where did Yip Man learn his "footwork" from? I just don't know.... and what do you think?'

and your posted answer contained:

'Yip had already trained with GM Chu when he was a young student.'.........'It is an interesting fact that Yip's footwork is much closer to the Wudang Weng Shun Kuen version than to that of modern Chi Sim Weng Shun Kuen'.

In this instance, how have the footworks differed in your opinion?

Cheerio, Gary

Dear Gary,

According to early Chi Sim Weng Chun Kuen (from the period it was known as Chi Sim Ving Tsun, I believe) students they were taught a Yi Chi Kim Yeung Ma stance of the pigeon-toed variety, like the one that most Weng Shun Kuen/Wing Chun Kuen branches use. The stance that is taught these days looks more like a horsestance-like construction. I have little knowledge of the stances in Chan Yiu Min- or Pao Fa Lien Weng Chun Kuen. But I do know that YM WCK, CS VT and WWSK share the same stance. The only style I am familiar with that has a different stance is Pan Nam's Weng Chun Kuen.

Best,

[wengshunkuen]

Originally posted by Cang Long
Wengshunkuen,
Thank you for your patience and your willingness to share the teaching of your Sifu. The topics and insight are greatly appreciated I do agree witht he otheres that have said as much.

My pleasure, Cang Long. Sharing is why I'm here. My Sifu says 80% of Kung Fu knowledge has gotten lost as a result of teachers then and now being secretive or even dishonest.

Greetz,