Review of Phoenix HFY workshop Oct 27-28th

[Eric]

Review of Phoenix HFY workshop Oct 27-28th

It was an honor and a pleasure to attend the public workshop given by Grandmaster Garret Gee at the Hung Fa Kwoon of Phoenix on October 27th. The material covered was Hung Fa Yi’s Tien Yan Dei theory and in specific how it can be used in anti grappling.

Here’s my recap as best as I can recollect:

The seminar opened on Saturday morning with a discussion of Saam Mo Kiu (three connecting bridges) philosophy. This is the philosophy that allows a Hung Fa Yi practitioner to know “where they are” and how they can relate to their opponent. It was explained that due to appropriate or inappropriate response as well as physical factors a person can end up in the Wandering stage, the Awareness stage or the Focused stage. The best analogy I have been given to explain the Saam Mo Kiu is this: it’s like either being born rich or poor. You either start with all the advantages or you have none. You can progress both all the way up or down from the starting level, maybe winning the lottery for the poor guy or losing it all in Vegas for the rich guy, but you know what position you’re in and where you are headed. Once we had a chance to explore the Saam Mo Kiu philosophy by utilizing a simple technique: Pak Da, we were ready to move on to understanding the theory of Tien Yan Dei.

As an introduction, historical context was given on the term Tien Yan Dei (Heaven, Human, Earth), and how the term in and of itself is not HFY Wing Chun specific. The Tien Yan Dei idea can be found in Taoist and Buddhist texts as well as other martial arts such as Chi Sim Weng Chun. However Tien Yan Dei as a theory in relation to Hung Fa Yi was explained as a type of “software” which is coupled with our specific Wing Chun structures as a type of “hardware.” Only when the hardware and software are compatible with one another can anything be accomplished. If someone tries to use a different kind of Tien Yan Dei with Hung Fa Yi structures or a different kind of structure with Hung Fa Yi Tien Yan Dei the results are not likely to be the same.

To explore the Tien Yan Dei idea we were first led through an explanation on the opening of the Hung Fa Yi Siu Nim Tao, and identifying the Heaven, Human and Earth space from the beginning motions. It was re-iterated from previous lessons that each move in Hung Fa Yi Siu Nim Tao is based on a concept, there are no moves that just show a technique or an attribute like flowing; each and every motion has a precise reason for being where it is.

After Siu Nim Tao practice, we engaged in an exercise to define our Tien Yan Dei in reference to ourselves using 4-gate theory. In 4-gate Tien Yan Dei, is predicated on our three self reference points, the upper, middle and lower dantiens are Heaven, Human and Earth respectively. In the exercise we define what structures are appropriate to use at each level: Heaven was the Butterfly Palm, Human the Lotus Palm and at Earth the Chin Gum Sao. All three palms were expressed by identifying the ½ way point between ourselves and our opponent, our own Heaven gate, and then engaging our Kiu Sao to bring our opponent “inside our box” and also determine which palm will be most appropriate to use.

After we had had some time to digest the idea of Tien Yan Dei, we began to move into anti-grappling. The point was made that there are several zones of space that someone determined to grapple with you will have to pass through to compromise your self identity and get you in a wrestling timeframe. Someone can not just jump straight from striking range immediately to body to body contact, they have to pass bridge arms range long before they get to your body. Our Hung Fa Yi view of anti-grappling is to control that intermediate space between the striking and the body to body contact with bridge control, giving a practitioner a choice of if they want to grapple or not. It was covered also, that if your skill is not high enough you may be caught into the wrestling timeframe and then you’d need to know how to wrestle. However, rather than work on what to do when we fail to control our own space it is important first to develop that identity that gives a person the chance to not grapple at all if they don’t want to.

We covered then different ways on how to work with the head based on what a grappler can present to you. One important point was shocking the opponent to halt their momentum, and we were given a myriad of tools to do this, from ear claps to the good-old honest punch in the face. From there we worked on Pak Faat Kiu, using a combination of Pak Sao, bridge control and continuing to work with the head to prevent the person from ever getting the space needed to execute any kind of wrestling maneuver.

Also covered in this workshop (which was a first for me and personal favorite) was the introduction of some of the kung fu leg ideas for countering grappling and general fighting skill in Hung Fa Yi. We learned how to use our knee function from Leung Yi Ma footwork to dissipate incoming force, from a push on the chest to countering a punch with a Pak when out of position. During the anti-grappling training, again the knee language was used, this time to counter a single-leg trap. Once again covering the timeframe before a wrestling guy can lock in what is needed to commit a takedown.

One other new idea covered during the later part of the workshop was the 4-point Kiu Sao platform. This platform is about maintaining an equal facing to an opponent who is trying to stretch, compress or otherwise distort your own personal space to buy his way in for a grappling maneuver. It teaches us how to counter being set-up for a leg take down from the stand up position. This is a training set that I can already tell is going to provide a fun few thousand hours of training time.

I want to honestly thank Grandmaster Gee for his time and dedication to us over this training weekend and the rest of our kung fu journey. We covered a ton of information in just one day, and although I had never seen some of the information before I was once again struck with the consistency of everything Grandmaster Gee teaches. When you learn why something works from Sitaigung Gee on day one, it will keep coming back on day two, three, four and beyond. It truly amazes me to see just how a system can remain protected for as long as Hung Fa Yi has; when you really see the reasoning why behind each piece that is given to you works, there is no room for changing to personal interpretation. Something simply is what is it because that’s how and why it works.

Thank you Sitaigung.


PS: I’m sure there’s tons I’ve missed about the training weekend, please everyone share your experiences!

[osprey3883]

Hello,
Eric I liked your post, you outlined what GM gee went over well.
I am going to break this into 2 parts, mainly because I need more time to put my understanding of Kiu Sau on paper.

First off I would like to thank GM Gee for his teaching. GM Gee is very generous and patient with his time.

My understand of Tin Yan Dei as it relates to 4 point Kiu Sau

In China there are many references to the idea of Heaven (Tin), Human (Yan) and Earth (Dei). Tin Yan Dei can be applied to martial arts, philosophy, religion and life in general. In Hung Fa Yi we apply Tin Yan Dei in many ways from general to specific. In a general sense the terms are applied as an alignment of structures, a way of connecting your body top to bottom, and expressing this alignment in motion.
To take this concept a step further we can build upon the idea of a generally connected structure and apply the concept of Tin Yan Dei in relation to ourselves. We understand that our structures are strongest within a particular width and height, as well as at a certain distance from our body. In Hung Fa Yi terms we call this area our box.
Looking at this from the waist up, we understand and express strong structures based on where our hands and arms are expressed within this box, understanding that the strongest structure at head height is different than at sternum and at waist height.
When we apply the Tin Yan Dei concept to an opponent we further define our concept of Tin Yan Dei to include from the bottom of our heels to the top of our head. We divide our body in three zones, and use these zones to understand the battlefield. We take the approach of “know yourself, know your opponent” and apply our understanding of structure as a way to read our opponent. We learn how to express strong structures to address the incoming attack while maintaining our own strong structure.

In part two I will address the Kiu Sau aspect.

Respectfully,
Matt

[duende]

Nice one Eric and Matt,

Sounds like you guys covered a HUGE amount of stuff this last weekend! 4gate/6gate TIn Yan Dei.... 4 point Kiu Sau.

Pretty soon the logic flow between Chi Sau/ Chi Kiu/ and Kiu Sau is going to be so in your face it's going to knock you on the head!

Glad you got to see some of the HFY footwork techniques... They can get pretty nasty... especially when things start speeding up, and your knee strikes become loosened-up and free. There'll will be some serious bruising going 'round!

I'm going to try and drop by sometime during the holidays... look forward to seeing both of you then.


PS. Matt you did get my # right??

[Savi]

Eric & Matt,

It's great to finally read about fresh information, as it has been really quiet here for a while! Thank you for taking the initiative.

I enjoyed both of your write ups, and look forward to more of course. I haven't had enough time on my hands to dedicate a write up on this topic, so again I personally appreciate and am glad to see my brothers moving ahead.

I'll definitely have some time in the coming days to add to the discussion, but I just wanted to acknowledge your efforts during my break at work.

Regards, and keep training hard!
Savi.

[osprey3883]

SBG Alex,
Thanks for the feedback. It would be great to see you when you are in AZ.
I did get your number, just been to busy between school, training and work to put it to good use. I will call you soon.

Respectfully,
Matt

[Eric]

Originally Posted by duende

I'm going to try and drop by sometime during the holidays... look forward to seeing both of you then.

I'm also looking forward to it Sibaakgung, it'll be good to see you here in AZ.

[Savi]

Hey Matt,
How's part 2 of your write up coming along?

Eric, you wrote this:

After we had had some time to digest the idea of Tien Yan Dei, we began to move into anti-grappling. The point was made that there are several zones of space that someone determined to grapple with you will have to pass through to compromise your self identity and get you in a wrestling timeframe. Someone can not just jump straight from striking range immediately to body to body contact, they have to pass bridge arms range long before they get to your body. Our Hung Fa Yi view of anti-grappling is to control that intermediate space between the striking and the body to body contact with bridge control, giving a practitioner a choice of if they want to grapple or not. It was covered also, that if your skill is not high enough you may be caught into the wrestling timeframe and then you’d need to know how to wrestle. However, rather than work on what to do when we fail to control our own space it is important first to develop that identity that gives a person the chance to not grapple at all if they don’t want to."

I really like the emphasis towards the bottom of the quote, as it has been my experience with others in the past that the degree of focus given on skill development, troubleshooting, and correct usage, of the arm applications in some other WC's have not been fully explored by its practitioners as it seems to be the opposite case in HFY's teachings from GM Gee. Every angle, so far as my awareness and insight can see, is always covered by him practically never leaving any stone unturned.

Can you explain a bit more for us as to how this intermediate zone can be controlled through HFY's technology? What makes it different/distinct from other ways/methods to check a grappling attempt? How does HFY's anti-grappling prevent someone from grabbing your neck or waist for a clinch? How does it work against leg takedowns? Does sensitivity and speed come into play regarding this, or is there something else that allows you to synchronize with the opponent more efficiently? And, at what point during the attack do you have to apply the anti-grappling technology before it's no longer a viable solution?

Regards,
Savi.

[Eric]

Hey Savi,

Can you explain a bit more for us as to how this intermediate zone can be controlled through HFY's technology? What makes it different/distinct from other ways/methods to check a grappling attempt? How does HFY's anti-grappling prevent someone from grabbing your neck or waist for a clinch? How does it work against leg takedowns? Does sensitivity and speed come into play regarding this, or is there something else that allows you to synchronize with the opponent more efficiently? And, at what point during the attack do you have to apply the anti-grappling technology before it's no longer a viable solution?

Certainly!

Let’s start by defining some of the other responses out there: In the case of a waist level takedown, it is common to try and lock in a guillotine choke, or to widen your stance and lean on the opponent to check their momentum (I believe called the sprawl) and in the case of a leg takedown, burying the knee into the person or the ground to prevent it from getting locked out. In each one of those cases a practitioner loses their striking timeframe in one of several ways. The guillotine: you are engaging in body to body contact, you are wrestling the opponent; The sprawl: you are giving up your self-centerline and committing all of your center of gravity on the opponent, losing the ability to strike; Burying the knee: you change the altitude of your structure, losing mobility and committing to being on the ground. However, let me be clear about one point, that the effectiveness of the above strategies is not being questioned; they have been proven in many environments. I am simply illustrating that when they are utilized, a Wing Chun identity is not being maintained.

So, how does a Hung Fa Yi response differ from that?

In the beginning, we have to define the range we’re talking about physically. We start by defining the limits of what we can do, in this case the heaven gate at high reference (full extension of the arm at head height) and then the halfway point from that full extension to our body by sinking the elbows to a kiu sao position. This halfway point is the range in which we can apply anti grappling using bridge arms. Even just defining that halfway point is a form of anti grappling when used against a neck grab. With a user-friendly slap to the opponent’s head to define the heaven space, using the sink of the elbow against the elbow of the grab can break the grip and re-enter the Hung Fa Yi practitioner to the striking timeframe.

For waist takedowns, first a practitioner needs to learn to work with the head to shock the opponent and halt their momentum. As I mentioned in my first post, we were given a number of ways to do this based on how the head was presented, punches ear slaps, etc. All of those techniques that can be used to shock the opponent have to be played at that halfway point space. It was noted that stepping back or sideways or any other movement does not guarantee you will halt the person’s momentum, which means you are playing into their game. Most grapplers seem to train to take a hit, and keep going; unless the hit physically stops their forward progress, it does not counter the grab at all. From the point of halting the opponent, we apply our pak kiu method, capturing an arm and the head, playing with the division of those two parts and maintaining the striking timeframe.

As for leg takedowns, this is where the footwork starts to come in. The person who makes it to this point has probably already bypassed your kiu sao (although there may be opportunities to strike to the back of the head) and is trying to compromise your structure by straightening or otherwise distorting the leg posture. To counter we have the Hung Fa Yi Leung Yi Ma footwork using the hip and the knee angle, you can counteract the straightening of the leg and simultaneously strike the opponent’s center through their base leg. The important feature again is the angle to deny that leg straightening out, if a grappler gets the leg to that point you will be forced to wrestle, end of story.

So in sum, the zones of space to identify are our outer limit, the halfway point kiu sao position, and then the “last-ditch” effort of the footwork and body angle. A grappler will need to pass through all of these zones before successfully applying any kind of technique. And as for your question about sensitivity and speed, those are always going to be a factor, but the effect they have can be reduced by keeping a strong awareness through all three of the above mentioned combat zones. It doesn’t matter how fast a tank can drive if it’s got to navigate through a minefield

Does this answer the questions?

[Boxer1408]

Hello all,

Thanks for the feedback.

1408

Anti-Grappling versus Counter-Grappling

By: Michael Pyun (TKD Black Belt Master & HFY Wing Chun 3 rd Degree Blue Belt Practitioner)

In my last article, I explained the difference between anti-grappling and grappling. I gave some basic definitions and differences between the two hoping to shed some light on the subject. However, it has come to my attention that there is a need to differentiate between the terms "anti-grappling" and "counter-grappling." These two terms are more different from each other than their names suggest. They are like comparing apples and oranges. So, in the next few paragraphs I hope to share my thoughts and experiences on these two very different philosophies and principles.

Much emphasis has been put on the idea that all fights end up on the ground. Therefore, one must learn grappling arts such as judo, wrestling, or Brazilian Jujitsu to be able to survive in a "real" fight. However, other schools of thought argue that in true combat, the last place you want to be is on the ground. In addition, grappling can be seen in two ways: 1)stand-up and 2)ground-fighting. In either case, counter-techniques have been developed to neutralize the most common attacks of both styles.

Counter-grappling techniques emphasize the use of disabling your opponent so that they can no longer continue with their attack. Depending on the style, you can employ either "hard" or "soft" techniques or a combination of the two. Some instructors will emphasize using leverage, others will focus on borrowing your opponent's energy, and there are a few who suggest applying a strike first to unbalance your opponent. Whatever strategy you use, it seems that one counter-grappling technique is only used for one particular attack. Therefore, you must learn a wide range of counter-grappling techniques to deal with the wide range of attacks you might face.

However, in Hung Fa Yi anti-grappling, there are no pre-arranged movements or waiting to see what your opponent does. Instead, one employs principle over technique. One principle can be applied to a wide-variety of techniques or engagements. In Hung Fa Yi, techniques are used as an expression of a principle, not just a means to an end. To put it more precisely, anti-grappling is the moment before technique so you can put time on your side. In theory, the use and understanding of anti-grappling is to put you in a situation that will not compromise your tin-yan-dae (heaven, human, and earth gates). Roughly speaking, through the use of proper anti-grappling principle, your structure, balance, and center should never be given up to your opponent. Rather, you should know and learn how to take away theirs.

It is hard to put into words exactly what Hung Fa Yi anti-grappling is without experiencing it for yourself. From an outsider's point of view, the techniques used to express this theory would just seem like more ordinary strategies to deal with a grappler. However, there are so many minute details and subtle nuances that must be felt in order to fully appreciate what anti-grappling means in the grappling range and time-frame.

One principle known as dit-da-kam-la is the idea that when you lose your balance or your opponent catches you off-guard, you know how to regain your center and structure. Then you can apply any number of kam-la (Cantonese for Chin-Na) techniques to finish off your opponent. But, dit-da-kam-la is a double-edged sword because it can also mean when your opponent is off balance how you can employ outside-the-box techniques without compromising yourself. That is, when your opponent is off-balance, you can use various techniques that would otherwise violate basic Hung Fa Yi principles in any other circumstance.
Another way of looking at dit-da-kam-la is through the principle of inside-the-box versus outside-the-box. Inside-the-box is the basic four-gate principle used in Hung Fa Yi. It also explains our focus points and how we do things a little different than everybody else. Outside-the-box refers to everything (techniques, theories, etc.) outside of the four-gates. In essence, this is what every other martial art practices. In dit-da-kam-la, you learn to deal with your opponent from an outside-the-box point of view and bring them into Hung Fa Yi's inside-the-box time-frame and space. In other words, you are going from nowhere to somewhere.

As I stated earlier, without a hands-on experience of Hung Fa Yi's anti-grappling principles, it is very difficult to explain in words how unique and devastating anti-grappling can be. Not even pictures nor a video would do it any justice. Further, without first learning the basic principles of Hung Fa Yi, it would be very hard for a beginner or advanced martial artist to appreciate the effectiveness and efficiency of dit-da-kam-la. To the average eye, it would just seem like some more techniques to deal with grappling. But to a trained Hung Fa Yi eye, the difference between counter-grappling and anti-grappling is so evident. When you see grappling through Hung Fa Yi, techniques become an illusion and principles become the only truth.

An After-Thought

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a complete martial art in every sense. It combines punching, kicking, grappling, anti-grappling, weapons, spirituality, and self-discipline. It also has answers to any situation you may come across in real-life combat. HFY is not a sport and never will be because it was built on the battlefield. And the only rule it has is survival. With regards to grappling, HFY does indeed have it. It also has anti-grappling. However, HFY also has Sae-Pak-Sae (4-point striking) which can also be used against grappling. In true HFY form, one single strike can neutralize a grappler. There is no need for a multitude of techniques or superior strength and speed. HFY offers the "professional" fighter a one- punch knockout weapon. In addition, the less you understand about the principles of nature, the more of an illusion you will create about real world combat.

And, in essence, you will constantly be searching for the latest technique or martial art that seems like it can fill your void. Trust me, I've been there. Before finding HFY, I too would try to learn different martial arts to fill in the gaps between each style. Now that I am starting to understand the basic principles of HFY, the illusion of technique no longer exists for me. There is only one truth in combat: time, space, and energy. And so, I think it's time to call upon the true martial artists who are genuinely seeking enlightenment to sample Sifu's cup of tea first hand before writing a review about how bad they think it might taste to them.

[BennyMeng]

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a complete martial art in every sense. It combines punching, kicking, grappling, anti-grappling, weapons, spirituality, and self-discipline. It also has answers to any situation you may come across in real-life combat. HFY is not a sport and never will be because it was built on the battlefield. And the only rule it has is survival. With regards to grappling, HFY does indeed have it. It also has anti-grappling. However, HFY also has Sae-Pak-Sae (4-point striking) which can also be used against grappling. In true HFY form, one single strike can neutralize a grappler. There is no need for a multitude of techniques or superior strength and speed. HFY offers the "professional" fighter a one- punch knockout weapon. In addition, the less you understand about the principles of nature, the more of an illusion you will create about real world combat.

And, in essence, you will constantly be searching for the latest technique or martial art that seems like it can fill your void. Trust me, I've been there. Before finding HFY, I too would try to learn different martial arts to fill in the gaps between each style. Now that I am starting to understand the basic principles of HFY, the illusion of technique no longer exists for me. There is only one truth in combat: time, space, and energy. And so, I think it's time to call upon the true martial artists who are genuinely seeking enlightenment to sample Sifu's cup of tea first hand before writing a review about how bad they think it might taste to them.

Michael,

I can relate to you 100%. I've been searching for the truth behind Wing Chun for over 20 years. Not only have I found it but it's my conclusion that Wing Chun was one of the highest levels of cultivation within the Shaolin temple and absorbed other high level martial art knowledge and experience from the HGB boxers to timeless truth: there are no styles, only time/space/energy. But TSE is deep at the principle levels of understanding, not too many people can relate to this level of martial art. Most martial artist are at the techique and style level of understanding. The concept of Maximum Efficiency itself does not exist in the mindset of most martial artists. To have a style contradicts the very nature of Maximum Efficiency. Maximum Efficiency and Reality are not styles. A style is nothing more than personal showmanship, like your haircut or wardrobe, something personal and unique to you. There are 6 billion styles but only one system. And that system is based on the Laws of Nature and the principles of physics. But the expression of that science is the art - each artist has a unique style. GM Gee has shared a great treasure with us. To treat that treasure as a style is one of the worst things we can do to this lineage.

In the methods we use on our school, we make a distinction between training martial arts for entertainment, health, sports, or self-defense/combat. Those activities in themselves exist in the nature of martial arts. There's nothing wrong with any of the different and unique activities; problems arise when someone mixes up what they want to train with the training itself. For example, someone could be a good fighter for sport competition but if he also assumes he would be equally good in a life-and-death combat with no additional training he is living in a false reality. But it goes the other way around, too. Someone could think he knows about real life-and-death combat but if his training method is incorrect, his skill growth will be limited. The person is as good as the way he trains - and if the training method is incorrect, that will actually destroy the effectiveness of the system. It still boggles my mind that we have such a complete and perfect system but I keep my pride in check, knowing that it's the human factors (like pride) that lead to mistakes. This goes back to the methods of training and cultivation.

I also agree that HFY is a complete system - it has both breadth and depth. As a combat system, all fighting tactics/strategies/tools/techniques are included with no preferences. You can't have a preference when facing reality. But many martial art families specialize in a certain set of tools or a certain range. That specialization directly or indirectly creates preferences, which can be a limiting factor in a real situation. Our system is about being complete and efficient. It offers the students the opportunity to fully develop the body, mind, and spirit as well as the technical information for real combat training.

[Savi]

Anti-Grappling versus Counter-Grappling

By: Michael Pyun (TKD Black Belt Master & HFY Wing Chun 3 rd Degree Blue Belt Practitioner)

In my last article, I explained the difference between anti-grappling and grappling. I gave some basic definitions and differences between the two hoping to shed some light on the subject. However, it has come to my attention that there is a need to differentiate between the terms "anti-grappling" and "counter-grappling." These two terms are more different from each other than their names suggest. They are like comparing apples and oranges. So, in the next few paragraphs I hope to share my thoughts and experiences on these two very different philosophies and principles.

First, Michael, I really enjoyed your write up. It is very concise and informative. I would also love to read the previous article you mentioned before you wrote this one. To me, we are looking at three different instances. There are steps A, B, and C:

A) anti grappling – methods used to deny the success of an attempt to grapple

B) grappling – applying a grappling move, such as leg takedowns, headlocks, arm bars, clinches, elbow/wrist/finger locks, etc…

C) counter grappling – reversing/escaping a grappling move either during the application or after the fact, whether it be with another grappling move or not.

Time-wise, I believe it falls into two battle arrays: Jeet Kiu and Wui Mah.

Much emphasis has been put on the idea that all fights end up on the ground. Therefore, one must learn grappling arts such as judo, wrestling, or Brazilian Jujitsu to be able to survive in a "real" fight. However, other schools of thought argue that in true combat, the last place you want to be is on the ground. In addition, grappling can be seen in two ways: 1)stand-up and 2)ground-fighting. In either case, counter-techniques have been developed to neutralize the most common attacks of both styles.

Wing Chun is indeed designed as a stand-up fighting system. In HFY, we differentiate between ground-fighting and ground-wrestling. In ground-fighting, the HFY system still enables the user to maintain his WC Identity; not violating the core functions of HFY concepts and structures. In ground wrestling, this falls outside of HFY’s box theory and structure concepts. What I have learned about HFY is that there is a very definitive line regarding the functionality of grappling in the HFY system. Grappling can be used in two categories: submission and disruption. HFY has both, but weighs more on disruptive grabs (joint locks, jerking and/or breaking of bones and tendons) to facilitate the loss of balance, structure, and facing, in the opponent.

Counter-grappling techniques emphasize the use of disabling your opponent so that they can no longer continue with their attack. Depending on the style, you can employ either "hard" or "soft" techniques or a combination of the two. Some instructors will emphasize using leverage, others will focus on borrowing your opponent's energy, and there are a few who suggest applying a strike first to unbalance your opponent. Whatever strategy you use, it seems that one counter-grappling technique is only used for one particular attack. Therefore, you must learn a wide range of counter-grappling techniques to deal with the wide range of attacks you might face.

The first example in HFY that comes to my mind is the Leung Yi Ma counter to a single leg takedown. Leung Yi Ma can fall into two categories regarding its function. One, from a Bai Jong standpoint it is used to travel (reposition your body) laterally as defined by the Deui Ying/Jeui Ying facing concept. Two, from a Jeet Kiu, Chum Kiu, & Wui Mah standpoint it is used for:
Jeet Kiu & Wui Mah - shifting (obtaining better body position/facing to flow, check, or crash with the opponent),
Chum Kiu - attacking (as in lower gate knee strikes), disrupting (creating a shift or redirection of opposing forces/gravities. Ie: applying FWD energy against the opponent’s leg or shoulder during a leg takedown).

However, in Hung Fa Yi anti-grappling, there are no pre-arranged movements or waiting to see what your opponent does. Instead, one employs principle over technique. One principle can be applied to a wide-variety of techniques or engagements. In Hung Fa Yi, techniques are used as an expression of a principle, not just a means to an end. To put it more precisely, anti-grappling is the moment before technique so you can put time on your side. In theory, the use and understanding of anti-grappling is to put you in a situation that will not compromise your tin-yan-dae (heaven, human, and earth gates). Roughly speaking, through the use of proper anti-grappling principle, your structure, balance, and center should never be given up to your opponent. Rather, you should know and learn how to take away theirs.

In my opinion, this is very well put. Principle keeps one disciplined and aware of his/her actions and provides that person the means to maintain the WC Identity. That is, provided they also have knowledge of Principle. The less knowledge one has, the less aware one becomes of things. The more knowledge one has, the more connections one sees in many and/or all things.

It is hard to put into words exactly what Hung Fa Yi anti-grappling is without experiencing it for yourself. From an outsider's point of view, the techniques used to express this theory would just seem like more ordinary strategies to deal with a grappler. However, there are so many minute details and subtle nuances that must be felt in order to fully appreciate what anti-grappling means in the grappling range and time-frame.

Ain’t that the truth!

One principle known as dit-da-kam-la is the idea that when you lose your balance or your opponent catches you off-guard, you know how to regain your center and structure. Then you can apply any number of kam-la (Cantonese for Chin-Na) techniques to finish off your opponent. But, dit-da-kam-la is a double-edged sword because it can also mean when your opponent is off balance how you can employ outside-the-box techniques without compromising yourself. That is, when your opponent is off-balance, you can use various techniques that would otherwise violate basic Hung Fa Yi principles in any other circumstance.

This double-edge sword perspective must never be overlooked. The “Dit Da” section of “Dit Da Kuhm La” uses the same first two Chinese characters of “Dit Da Jow”, but does not mean the same thing. As you’ve pointed out, that part is in reference to the loss of balance, whether it be in you or your opponent (both sides of the same coin). Sei-Paak-Sei technology comes to mind (and in some cases, painfully) regarding striking during the loss of balance. Wow, just thinking back on the application, ‘that’ part of my skull is beginning to ache a bit if you know what I mean…

Another way of looking at dit-da-kam-la is through the principle of inside-the-box versus outside-the-box. Inside-the-box is the basic four-gate principle used in Hung Fa Yi. It also explains our focus points and how we do things a little different than everybody else. Outside-the-box refers to everything (techniques, theories, etc.) outside of the four-gates. In essence, this is what every other martial art practices. In dit-da-kam-la, you learn to deal with your opponent from an outside-the-box point of view and bring them into Hung Fa Yi's inside-the-box time-frame and space. In other words, you are going from nowhere to somewhere.

No doubt the technology behind HFY’s anti-grappling comes from an in depth background of many many years of extensive grappling knowledge from Chinese martial arts. Through HFY’s implementation of Tin Yan Dei via 4 Gate and 6 Gate Theory, one can see how it is entirely applicable to deny the completion of a grapple. Going from nowhere to somewhere is not only about knowing the part of “nowhere” and “somewhere”, but also knowing the part of “going”. In other words, KIU SAU!!! From point A to point B, there is always a point in between, and it is here where the utmost importance of knowledge and skill come to play.

As I stated earlier, without a hands-on experience of Hung Fa Yi's anti-grappling principles, it is very difficult to explain in words how unique and devastating anti-grappling can be. Not even pictures nor a video would do it any justice. Further, without first learning the basic principles of Hung Fa Yi, it would be very hard for a beginner or advanced martial artist to appreciate the effectiveness and efficiency of dit-da-kam-la. To the average eye, it would just seem like some more techniques to deal with grappling. But to a trained Hung Fa Yi eye, the difference between counter-grappling and anti-grappling is so evident. When you see grappling through Hung Fa Yi, techniques become an illusion and principles become the only truth.

Two phrases come to mind, ”Hau Chyun Sum Sau” & “Experience Required”. I would agree that some preliminary training must be a requirement for students learning this portion of the HFY system.

An After-Thought

Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun is a complete martial art in every sense. It combines punching, kicking, grappling, anti-grappling, weapons, spirituality, and self-discipline. It also has answers to any situation you may come across in real-life combat. HFY is not a sport and never will be because it was built on the battlefield. And the only rule it has is survival. With regards to grappling, HFY does indeed have it. It also has anti-grappling. However, HFY also has Sae-Pak-Sae (4-point striking) which can also be used against grappling. In true HFY form, one single strike can neutralize a grappler. There is no need for a multitude of techniques or superior strength and speed. HFY offers the "professional" fighter a one- punch knockout weapon. In addition, the less you understand about the principles of nature, the more of an illusion you will create about real world combat.

And, in essence, you will constantly be searching for the latest technique or martial art that seems like it can fill your void. Trust me, I've been there. Before finding HFY, I too would try to learn different martial arts to fill in the gaps between each style. Now that I am starting to understand the basic principles of HFY, the illusion of technique no longer exists for me. There is only one truth in combat: time, space, and energy. And so, I think it's time to call upon the true martial artists who are genuinely seeking enlightenment to sample Sifu's cup of tea first hand before writing a review about how bad they think it might taste to them.

Wonderfully written.

[Savi]

Originally Posted by Eric

As for leg takedowns, this is where the footwork starts to come in. The person who makes it to this point has probably already bypassed your kiu sao (although there may be opportunities to strike to the back of the head) and is trying to compromise your structure by straightening or otherwise distorting the leg posture. To counter we have the Hung Fa Yi Leung Yi Ma footwork using the hip and the knee angle, you can counteract the straightening of the leg and simultaneously strike the opponent’s center through their base leg. The important feature again is the angle to deny that leg straightening out, if a grappler gets the leg to that point you will be forced to wrestle, end of story.

Nice explanation, but if I didn't know what Leung Yi Ma is, I wouldn't know what you are really talking about.

Can you explain what is Leung Yi Ma, and how does its function differ between its usage(s) in long range to close range combat?

Regards,
Savi.