Chan Wah Shun Vs Wong Fei Hung

[Hungman]

Here is the true story about fight between the Wing Chun Grangmaster Chan Wah-Shun and the Hung Ga Grandmaster Wong Fei Hung.-- told by Chan Guo Ji (the grandson of Chan Wah Shun)

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdn...0411090028.htm



The translation...by Chris

"A (martial) challenge with Wong Fei Hung

Chan Guo Ji said, according to his family's records, Chan Wah-Shun and Wong Fei Hung once tested each other's martial skills, which is an interesting story. One day, Wong Fei Hung took two of his students to find Leung Jan for a (martial) match, and at the time the rules were to first test Bridge Hands. Leung Jan was somewhat small, and felt that it would be hard for him to wind at Bridge Hands. Moreover, Wong Fei Hung didn't know Leung Jan, so Leung Jan asked Chan Wah Shun to take his place at Pressing Bridges. Chan Wah Shun used his great strength (literally: 9 oxen and 2 tiger's strength) to push down Wong Fei Hung's Bridge. After that, it was time to test Hand Skills. Chan Wah Shun then used the connected palm Pair of Flying Butterflies to defeat Wong Fei Hung's LoHan 18 Palm style Barring the Door. As Chan Guo Ji told this story, he also demonstrated the Butterfly Palm technique, saying that by using this technique you can attack an opponenent at a distance. Three months later, Chan Wah Shun used his 6.5 Staff to defeat Wong Fei Hung's BaGua staff. Only after this (martial) encounter, did Wong Fei Hung discover that it was not Leung Jan after all...but Chan Wah Shun. And as a result of these two contests, Chan's fame grew. Chan Guo Ji said, "All of these stories are carefully documented. The previous generations not only challenged one another, but also elevated their spirit to a level that should inspire (today's students)."

[wengshunkuen]

Thank you Hungman for a magnificent story, no matter if it is true or not. I'm a sucker for these kind of tales(-;

But does anybody know who the current Grandmaster/clanleader is in Ng Chung So's lineage? It is obvious that, when Chan Wah Shun died, it was Ng who took over the school. But who came after him? And who is the leader of that particular branch/lineage today? I have been wondering about this question for some time without finding any answers. Thanks in advance.

Respect to all,

[Hungman]

Originally posted by wengshunkuen
Thank you Hungman for a magnificent story, no matter if it is true or not. I'm a sucker for these kind of tales(-;

But does anybody know who the current Grandmaster/clanleader is in Ng Chung So's lineage? It is obvious that, when Chan Wah Shun died, it was Ng who took over the school. But who came after him? And who is the leader of that particular branch/lineage today? I have been wondering about this question for some time without finding any answers. Thanks in advance.

Respect to all,

Hi wengshunkuen
Here is his story -- "Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage"

1. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Chan Yui Min (son) > Chan Ga Lim (grandson) > Chan Gou Ji (great grand son)

2. Leung Jan > Chan Wah Shun > Ng Chung So (student) > Yip Man (student)




P.S. Now that we know a little more about Chan Wah Shun and the Hung Ga Grandmaster Wong Fei Hung. Can Master Benny Meng or anybody translate this story?

http://www.sc168.com/file/sdnews/sdn...0411090028.htm

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior???

Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.

But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.

[sihing]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior???

Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.

But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.

Sounds like the days back in the 50's when The Bronx Bull Jake LaMotta fought Sugar Ray Robinson 3 months in a row, because there was no one else to fight against...

JR

[Hungman]

Hi Armin
This one is for you! "Hung Ga Kung Fu"


http://mail.cssh.tpc.edu.tw/~t479/file/BBB.WMV

[Hungman]

History and origins of Hung Gar, like most of the other Chinese Martial Arts is full of legends, myths and contradictions without much fact or actual recorded historical evidence which can fully support many of the historical stories floating around today. The earlier history of Hung Gar, especially before Wong Fei Hung is somewhat ambiguous and confusing. This is largely due to much of the history being passed down verbally from generation to generation, master to student and so on. Passing on much of the history orally has of course led to more than one version of story and many contradictions. Through out centuries some of these stories have often changed, modified and at times way over execrated. The gaps between actual historical facts and evidence has lead people to change and make up their own history to fill in these gaps.

There are, however, some historical evidence and facts which sheds light to the origins and development of Hung Gar gungfu through time. Although the earlier history of Hung Gar is still not as clear as one would expect or want, there are on going efforts and research which may in the future clarify some of the historical contradictions and legends.

Most widely accepted version, regarding the origins of Hung Gar tells us that history of Hung Gar begins during the 17th century in southern China. Hung Gar is said to have its origins in the Southern Shaolin temple in Fukien Province of Southern China.

According to the legends, the actual story of Hung Gar style begins with the Shaolin monk Gee Seen Sim See during a time of turmoil and strife when China was under the rule of Ch'ing dynasty (Manchu). The Manchurian conquest and rule( 1644-1911) of China was a deeply humiliating experience for the Chinese. The Manchus, indeed, made things harder for themselves, as foreign rulers, with their decree that Chinese men would have to adopt Manchu costumes (including the infamous "queue"). This provoked violent Chinese popular resistance and helped the "Southern Ming" princes rally forces against the Manchu's for almost two decades.

It is said that Gee Seen Sim See was a monk at the Northern Shaolin Temple. When the Ching troops burned down the Northern temple, the monk Gee Seen amongst others managed to escape.Gee Seen Sim See flea to the Fukien province of China where he is said to have eventually became the abbot of Southern Shaolin temple and trained many people in the art of shaolin gung fu, including non-budhist monks who were known as shaolin layman disciples. It is also said that Gee Seen supported the anti-ching movement and took part in the activities to overthrow the Manchu government

According to the legend it was during this time when a young patriot named Hung Hei Goon took refuge at the Southern Shaolin Temple to hide from the Manchu officials. Legend has it that Hung Hei Goon trained under Gee Seen Sim See and eventually became his top disciple. Hung Hei Goon is widely considered as the founder of Hung Gar.

Hung Hei Goon disliked the Ch'ing rule like many other Chinese and spent most of his life fighting to over throw the Ch'ing and restore the Ming. Hung's real surname was CHU,however due to being one of the most wanted rebels of his time, he later changed his name to Hung to hide his real identity from the Ch'ing government. He chose the name Hung as a tribute to the first Ming Emperor Hung Mo(Hong Wu) who is widely considered as one of the best, if not the best emperor in the history of China.

The Ch'ing government well aware of what was happening at the Southern Shaolin temple, felt threatened by shaolin temple and its activities. They planed a full scale attack and send imperial troops to destroy the temple and kill all the monks and rebels. The monks were out numbered largely and did not stand a chance against the army, the Shaolin temple was burned down to the ground. Hung Hei Goon and Gee Sim, Luk Ah Choy as well as some others managed to survive the attack and fled to the southern parts of China. These man swore to spread the art of shaolin and fight to "overthrow the Chi'ng, restore the Ming".

At the time Gung fu training was banned by the Manchus. So Hung Hei Goon taught his art secretly at the Big Buddha Temple in Kwungtung, southern China. Once the ban was lifted, he began teaching openly and set up a school in Fa city of Kwungtung province. He named his art Hung Gar Kuen (Hung family Fist), mainly to hide its shaolin connections from the Manchus.

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

thanks for the link! Are you sure, that this was Hung Ga? Look at their belts and what they wear at their ankles - sure, this weren't the hell's angels???

No, really, I like Hung Ga. It looks full of energy and very powerful.


Armin.

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

has there ever been a doubt, that Ving Tsun is most superior???

Hi Armin
For all our scary ideas about the "Ving Tsun is most superior", you can read the rest of this exciting story below.

IWKA is heavily influenced by Weng Chun and is totally superior to the Leung Ting system. Over the last few months I have proved that time and time again in theory and practice.-- Dai Sifu Iadarola

Originally posted by Armin
Well, as a martial artist I'd prefered the story to go kind of like this: one day Chan Wah Shun won, the next day Wong Fei Hung, than Chan Wah Shun and again Wong Fei Hung. They went on competing for a whole month, until they finally had to admit that each of them was a great martial artist. So, they went to the next bar and spent the night drinking plum-wine.

In the bar you might be surprised to find out who Wong Fei Hung is. A "drunken boxing" master, that would give him more power to fight against Chan Wah Shun.

Originally posted by Armin
But seriously: do the Hung Gar-people tell the same story?


Armin.

According to Chan Gou Ji (the great grandson--the gate keeper of Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage) said, "All of these stories are carefully documented." But the Hung Ga people would rather say it this way--" Is there any way to know if such things really happened--or if they're just lies, confusion, or misunderstandings?"


HM

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

take a second look - IWKA is only totally superior. I said, Ving Tsun is most superior!!!

In the bar you might be surprised to find out who Wong Fei Hung is. A "drunken boxing" master, that would give him more power to fight against Chan Wah Shun.

You know that economy-of-motion-thing!? While he would be drinking his wine out of a cup - Chan Wah Shun would be drinking out of the pitcher, thus getting drunk first!

But either way, both of 'em will have a bad headache the next day and no recollection of what happende the other night.

According to Chan Gou Ji (the great grandson--the gate keeper of Chan Wah Shun Wing Chun Lineage) said, "All of these stories are carefully documented." But the Hung Ga people would rather say it this way--" Is there any way to know if such things really happened--or if they're just lies, confusion, or misunderstandings?"

Yes, of course they will say this and they are right. But you see, Wong Fei Hung is a hero - having been beaten in a fight would make him IMHO even more a hero, because it would show his 'human' side.

Everytime someone says, 'he wasn't beaten in one single fight', he puts someone on a higher level, taking away the fact, that this guy was (only) human, too. And it will diminish the 'worth' of the actions this person did for his country and his people. Understand, what I mean?


Armin.

[Cang Long]

Hungman,
Thank you for the links, not being able to translate Chinese to English I had to have it read for me so I won't attempt to translate the pages myself but it would be nice to get some more discussion from them if someone else would be kind enough to translate. I will say that it was interesting to hear Chan Gou Ji being from the Lueng Jan/Yip Man Lineage relate his understanding of Wing Chun's origins.

He specifically mentions that Shaolin monks were taught kung fu at the Fujian Monastery.

He mentions the year in which the temple was burned down as being 1795.

Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.

Naturally it is interesting to hear another source corroborate the findings of the Ving tsun Museum because previous to hearing this only Chi Sim and Hung Fa Yi Weng/Wing Chun were credited with making mention of the evidence that Weng/Wing Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of Southern Shaolin.

Ving Tsun Museum findings

Chan Gou Ji's story

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin
Hi Hungman,

take a second look - IWKA is only totally superior. I said, Ving Tsun is most superior!!!


taking away the fact, that this guy was (only) human, too. And it will diminish the 'worth' of the actions this person did for his country and his people. Understand, what I mean?


Armin.

Hi Armin
I'm trying to understand U "what I mean?" In the end, your interaction with the superhero "Dai Sifu Iadarola" will come down to what you do with your mind.:frog:

Originally posted by Cang Long
Chan Gou Ji also explains that Weng Chun was created in the Weng Chun Din of the Shaolin Temple and relates how the spelling was changed from Weng to Wing to hide it's identity from the Manchu and after the fall of the Qing Dynasty the term Weng Chun was re-introduced to the public. He too mentions that the Weng Chun Din was the only building to survive the burning of the temple. Just as importantly Chan Gou Ji names 3 surviving members of the destroyed temple as Chi Sim, Hei Hung Gun & Wong Sun who then later passed on a system based on weng chun at the red opera boats.

Hi Cang Long
Thank you for your info as well, and I hope Master Benny Meng or anybody can translate this story for us soon.


HM

[Hungman]

Originally posted by Armin

You know that economy-of-motion-thing!?

Hi Armin
"But wait a minute," I hear someone saying. "He only had 46 hours of lesson of training, and that already made him a Dai Sifu in the ving tsun world"

Whoever believes in "economy-of-motion-thing" is indeed a Dai Sifu. Again, a living spiritual being who is becoming more and more perfect everyday.


HM

Sergio already had to admit, that he only had 46 hours of lesson (or a little bit more) - months of training???

[Cang Long]

Hi Cang Long
Thank you for your info as well, and I hope Master Benny Meng or anybody can translate this story for us soon.

Hungman,
Greetings and thank you for all that you contribute, I agree hole heartedly history is very important not only for preserving the entire art/science as it was intended but also being able to differentiate facts from myth will enable people to empower themselves with knowledge that is correct. For instance the fact that so many people argue that Weng Chun is not related to Wing Chun when clearly we see that is not the case and by knowing this it can cause people to look more deeply in to the principles of boh art/science to find the true connections moving them away from the typical surface level thinking that holds back so many practitioners.

As in all chan practicies without understanding of history what ever understanding a person did have would be incomplete with out the understanding of all facets of the subject matter at hand. The paragraph paraphrased in my last post connects 3 different families to one story and one particular time in history that is note worthy and relavent to all practitioners of each and every lineage connected to those families as well as all practitioners taking up the art/science after this information is revealed. Enjoy and like you say I look forward to someone translating the entire page for us to share and discuss further.

[Armin]

Hi Hungman,

again, please read carefully - it's 'economy of motion', not 'economy of learning'. Or otherwise it would make no sense to put everything into 12 different student-programs and 12 different technician-programs. But still, this is 'economy of teaching' - making the most possible money with showing/teaching the least possible. Small amount of energy - huge amount of gain!

And luckily enough - there's no interaction with Sergio from my side, I just keep myself informed. There's more going on over here than this - this may be interesting for you. To be honest, I prefer the argues of the different students of Wong Shun Leung. There you can see, how dirty tricks really work. Taping phone-calls, sending e-mails under alias, taking everything the other side says and put the words in a way together, that there's a totally different sense, and so on.

Meanwhile, to most of the Germans, Sergio Iadarola is only a name. He had a strong impact at the beginning, when he claimed to be the only one who learned 'everything' from Leung Ting - lots of master-degrees and technician-degrees followed him. And it took only half a year for them, to leave their new sifu and everything fell apart again.

If you like, I can give you a more detailed overview of what happened here, say for the last four or five years - that'll be a very long post!


Armin.